Transcript

Mandy Catto: Welcome to another Art of Relationships podcast. We are grateful for listeners like you. Let's get right into it.

Chris Grace: Well thanks, Mandy, for the introduction, and it's good to be here, Tim. One of the cool things about this podcast, Tim, is we get to talk about all things relationships. And it's really fun to do especially given today's world and the central role these things play. But Tim, one of the cool things we get to do is have guests on the program.

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah when we started the Center about 3 years ago, it's amazing how many people are doing what we're doing, and so we're not doing it in a vacuum. There are people who have been dedicating their lives, there's people who have been studying these issues. So, it's really fun to bring on experts and get a different take on what we would say. Often, we have to correct them, that's kind of awkward... We have an expert, an author, a traveler speaker, someone who's been part of our Going Deeper conferences. And Chris, you've known her for quite a while.

Chris Grace: I have. So for all the listeners out there, we're just going to introduce to you Kim Miller. So Kim, thanks for showing up today.

Kim Miller: Oh, it's just a great honor to be here, Chris.

Chris Grace: Well, Kim, let me just-

Tim Muehlhoff: And Tim. That hurt. [crosstalk] That hurt a little bit. [crosstalk]

Chris Grace: That was good. Kim, you have a Masters in Theology. You're a licensed marriage and family therapist. You have a new book out, "Boundaries for Your Soul" right here in front of us. As a licensed marriage and family therapist, you get a chance to speak, you do retreats, you've founded a number of different initiatives and companies that we'll talk a little bit about. You've spent some time back east, you're married to a wonderful man who we know very well as well can. So here's what we get to do, first of all, thanks for coming on the program.

Kim Miller: Oh, thanks for having me.

Chris Grace: Kim, some of the things that you're doing, I look at this list and I think, "Where do you find the time? You do so much." You've finished a book with a friend of yours, Alison Cook, and you guys wrote a book called "Boundaries for the Soul" So tell us what you're doing in life, and how important this has been, and some of the things going on with you and your world.

Kim Miller: Thanks Chris. Well, it really started with my own personal journey of wanting to learn how to live the abundant life in Christ, and wanting to have really healthy relationships. And I realized that there was a method that was helping me a lot, so I started teaching it to other people, and then I invited Alison to join me in doing that. And then one day she said, "Hey, we should write a book about this" And so then I thought, "internal boundaries is a good way to frame what we're talking about." So we raised the topic with John Townsend, and he said, "That's a great idea. Why don't you write a book about that and I'll introduce you to my agent?" So the rest is history.

Chris Grace: I wonder if John's ever written anything on boundaries.

Kim Miller: No, I don't know, maybe that's some research we could do.

Chris Grace: What do you think, Tim? We might want to suggest that to him.

Tim Muehlhoff: Well Kim, what would you say is the abundant life? If that's something you were kind of interested in, what would be your personal take on what is the kind of abundant of life that we're wanting to be a part of?

Kim Miller: Gosh, in a nutshell, I would say self-forgetfulness and being able to just practice the presence of God.

Chris Grace: Let's start with each of those.

Tim Muehlhoff: Holy cow, that's five podcasts right there.

Chris Grace: What does it mean? Tell me, I mean, I love it. What is it?

Kim Miller: Well, what it means is being able to just enjoy the presence of Christ, all throughout the day. But the big question for me is how do you do that? And so this book is really a "how-to", it's five practical steps that you can take to go from being annoyed and frustrated with life to being really at peace and walking with the Spirit. Yeah.

Chris Grace: I love it. Tim and I are in a small group, and we are going over the vices and the virtues. There's a great book called "Glittering Vices", and it's-

Tim Muehlhoff: It's a horrible book. It is soo convicting!

Kim Miller: That sounds so joyful, [crosstalk] exciting, I can't wait to read.

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, yeah. I was so happy to get past vainglory. That was a brutal night. 

Chris Grace: I'll tell you what. So, recently, we've been talking about anger, but this idea, though, of some of the emotions that come into play. So, you're talking about boundaries for the soul, right? Some of the ways in which some of these things can affect us. So, what does it mean to grow closer to God but also with self-forgetfulness? Tell us about that tie-in, that connection.

Kim Miller: Right, well we can all have feelings like anger, anxiety, and fear, guilt and shame, envy and desire, sadness and grief. These feelings that we have every day can really weigh us down, and in boundaries terms, you could say these feelings can be too close. They can really overwhelm us. They can take over the headquarters of our lives, like in the movie "Inside Out". And so the goal is to have healthy boundaries with these feelings, so that these parts of us that carry them can get some space, they can relax a little bit, step back just a little bit, so that we can actually get back in touch with the Holy Spirit deep down inside and lead these parts of us, so that we can actually put them to use for good.

Tim Muehlhoff: I love that, because you're not saying deny emotions, that's crazy and supremely unbiblical, because we're incredibly emotional people, but you're saying there's a way relating to these emotions that can produce the abundant life, what you're trying to shoot for.

Kim Miller: Right, and I think this is where Christian counseling has sometimes been unhelpful, Tim, if I may say so. Because I think that there's these verses in the bible that say things like, "crucify yourself, deny yourself," and so, sometimes we take these verses and we interpret them to mean "don't like yourself" or "don't think about yourself," or "just try to ignore your feelings." But, actually, just like if you ignore a person or turn against a person, they dig in their heels, and your conflict increases. The parts of us that carry those painful emotions do the same, and we end up with internal polarization. In psychological terms, we call it "splitting," and then people have the opposite of integrity, right? They have sort of secret lives. They do things they don't want to do, like Paul says.

He says in Romans, "I do the things I don't want to do," and then he says in Galatians, in the "Living by the Spirit" ... "Walking with the Spirit" chapter, he says, "and you do," he said, "the sinful nature is conflict with the Spirit, so that you do not do the things you want to do." So we end up living from these parts of us that have these emotions instead of walking with the Spirit.

Chris Grace: So, Kim, some listeners out there are hearing this and we interacted with many of them, we've heard from some, some have written in. They have a hard time knowing what to do with their anxieties and their fears, or even some of their anger or sadness. So, these emotions strike them, they know they're there, but they feel as if they start to dominate or control them. So, what advice do you give when someone says to you, "I just don't know if this appropriate." How do you help them understand what's an appropriate emotion when it comes to anxiety or fear? How do you know in your counseling, or something else, that you need some new perspective or help? This is not normal when you're feeling this, so are there ways that you have helped people deal with emotions like this, that can help them get new insights into who they are?

Kim Miller: Yes, so one thing that I love to tell people is to take a U-turn when they start to feel anxious, or afraid, or some sort of feeling they don't want to have. Say just stop for a moment, and instead of being critical of the other person or situation that's making you angry, do what Jesus said to do, "look at the plank in your own eye," and take a U-turn, and then pause and pay attention to this feeling that you're having. And then, instead of letting it overwhelm you, see if you can learn from it, and then speak on behalf of this part of yourself that has the feeling.

Tim Muehlhoff: So some listeners might be saying, "whoa!" That's... how do you do that?" And I just want to echo what you said about your book, that it is very practical. That you mention five different steps and then you apply them to things like anger, fear, anxiety, sadness, guilt, shame. Let's take anxiousness, because I would say Chris, I was going to ask you this. I see the rise of that more than... This is my 15th year at Biola. I see anxiousness really have risen up to the level that people are having to step away from the semester. They just can't function, it's reached a level where it's really crippling to them. So, let's take a look at those steps, and then apply it to anxiety, and if we have time, vainglory and envy.

Kim Miller: So, the five steps are to focus on the feeling that you're having, and then, to befriend it, to invite Jesus to be near, to unburden it, and then to integrate into your "internal team of rivals," we say. 

Tim Muehlhoff: Okay, go to the "befriend" part, how do you do that?

Kim Miller: So, ask yourself, Tim, how are you, so are you feeling...Hm, focus on your anxiety right now, focus on your anxiety right now, and then ask yourself, "how am I feeling toward my anxiety?"

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah, and I would say, so I'm thinking of something I will not share, because I would have to kill all the listeners [crosstalk]. Let's pick one that I think a lot of people can relate to. If you have kids then anxiety can really rear its head. Are they making the right friends? Are they following your religious values? You can just pick one of the smorgasbord, and your eyes are wide awake at night looking at the ceiling, you know what I mean, kind of a thing. So let's say anxiety about a child's career path, and maybe you think they're making ... This is totally hypothetical, I love my kids. They're all making great choices.

But, let's just say it's something like that, that parents are really concerned that their child's heading in the wrong direction. So, what would that look like to make friends with that?

Kim Miller: Okay, so first you focus. So, focus on that feeling right now. Why don't we all do that right now? Imagine that feeling of anxiety you have, okay? Now ask yourself, how do you feel toward it? Not about it, not how you feel about it, because that gets you in your head, but in your heart, how do you feel toward this anxiety that you have?

Tim Muehlhoff: I would feel a range of emotions. I'd feel it's a little bit unbiblical, because I'm haunted by the Philippians passage, right? Be anxious for nothing pops up all the time.

Kim Miller: Right, so why don't we just stop there? That's a good start. So you don't really like this anxiety, you wish you didn't have it. [Crosstalk] It's like, "ooh, I feel kind of guilty about it. I'm not doing the Philippians thing." So, that's our normal response. We always have these inner critics of our feelings that aren't completely Galatians 5, "Walking With the Spirit," so that's where we have to befriend this part of us with those feelings, and switch to welcoming it, even consider giving it a Medal of Honor. Whoa!

Tim Muehlhoff: Okay! You have me!

Kim Miller: Do I have you? Have you ever thought about giving the part of you that's anxious a Medal of Honor?

Tim Muehlhoff: Alright, so what would that look like? What does that look like, describe a Medal of Honor.

Kim Miller: Okay, so imagine ... So, this is where imagination really comes in handy, and C.S. Lewis said that his baptized imagination was an important part of his conversion process. So, I know post-enlightenment people were not really good at using creativity and imagination but, you know, we need to try to go there, because God gave us that capacity. So, imagine there's this part of you, you can even picture it, somehow. Here's a picture of you, Tim, feeling anxious, okay? And then try to connect with it, and then ask the inner critic that you have to step back and see if you can extend compassion to this part of you, and really try to connect with this part of you, okay?

And the key distinction I want to make here is that you want to welcome this part of you with the anxiety, but you're not celebrating the anxiety. But once you welcome the part with the anxiety, the part will relax.

Tim Muehlhoff: Can I give you my for instance?

Kim Miller: Yes.

Tim Muehlhoff: So, to make friends with it, to silence the critic, I would think things like, "This is what being a good parent is! You care about your kids. How weird would it be not to be concerned about your kids?"

Kim Miller: Right, okay.

Tim Muehlhoff: Right? So this is a good part of me, this isn't a part that I want to get rid of. This is actually a part that shows me I'm not just absorbed with myself, but I really do care about my kids enough that I can have some sleepless nights.

Chris Grace: In fact, Tim, you would be worried if it was the opposite. Like, "I really don't care that much if my kid mess ... To be honest, I'm just manufacturing this anxiety because culture tells me I should be a good parent. So, it actually is a good thing, right?"

Kim Miller: I'm hearing some gratitude there. I'm hearing some gratitude towards this part of you that's feeling anxious, so just like with a person, if you say, you know, "thank you so much for caring." You say thank you for caring to this part of you with the anxiety. And then, notice it'll start to relax. And then, you can ask this part of you, "Is there a different strategy that you could use to accomplish the same goal?" So therefore, instead of being anxious, you could potentially be encouraging.

Tim Muehlhoff: To myself.

Kim Miller: Mm-hmm. Like, to be a better parent. You say, "thank you so much for caring about my son. How about instead of being anxious, we pray for him?" You can think of this part of you as very well-meaning, is trying very hard, it cares a whole lot. Its been working for you for a really long time, you know? And it maybe deserves a promotion? It can become like emeritus? Like this emeritus part that can advise you on how to encourage your son instead of having anxiety?

Chris Grace: Kim, what if it goes like this? There's some great insights that a person can use. It reminds me of Psalm 139, right, 23 and 24, "Search me, O God, know my heart. Try me and all my anxious thoughts. See if there's any hurtful way." What you're saying is, if I am asking God to try my anxious thoughts, and if there's something hurtful, right, see if there's any hurtful way, and then lead me in this everlasting way. It's not saying it's in some of my anxiety, in some of my fears, there can be some negative, hurtful things I'm doing.

Yet, it also can be something celebrated or accepted in some ways, right? In other words, if we're open to God leading us to be that gauge or that help, what role does that play when ... So, Tim is now trying to deal with whether or not, as being a parent, he's doing something wrong, or he's too anxious and he now is accepting this part of him. How does he know when this is the side that's hurtful or harmful or wrong? What process can he go through?

Kim Miller: How does he know if it's hurtful? Well, if the feeling is causing any sort of impairment in his relationships or work, you know, that's a sign that it's time to take a U-turn and stop. And if it's causing you any discomfort, you know? I took an MPI exam one time, which is a test to see just how you're doing emotionally, and I scored sort of in the middle range on anxiety. And I asked the teacher, this was during my Master's program in counseling, I said, "That's okay, right? It's just like a three out of one to five, that's not too bad, I'm not really that messed up, am I?" And he said, "Well is it causing you any discomfort?" And I think that's a really good question. It stayed with me. If it's uncomfortable to you, if you're thinking about, "Gosh, I feel really anxious," then it's time to take a U-turn.

Tim Muehlhoff: No, that's good. I like that. And you know what, what has helped us is the realization that sometimes the Spirit needs to remind me, "Hey, you're not the only parenting this child." The Holy Spirit's parenting this child. God actually even loves your child more than you do, right? And so to know that God is at work, not just me and my wife, that would be crushing if all that weight was, were on your shoulders. But to say, "no, the Spirit is actually speaking to my kids in ways that's even deeper and more profound than what Noreen and I can speak.

Kim Miller: And you always knew that all along, Tim, deep down. But, there was this part of you that got anxious. Kind of like a cloud coming over the sun, it got in the way of your sense of peace. So, it's good to remind this part of you that Jesus is with your son, too. And that's where the invite step comes in. So it's focus on the feeling, befriend it, you know, felt compassion for it, give it a Medal of Honor and promote to advisor instead of being in control of your life. And then, invite Jesus. You can ask this part of you, "do you know that Jesus is in control?"

And these parts of us, it's interesting, I don't understand how, but it is how God made us, just like we have parts of our body, we have parts of our soul. And even though you can be a Christian, and have known God a long time, you can have a part of yourself that isn't really in touch with him. And so you can ask this part, "Do you know who Jesus is?" If it does, you can say, "Is he near? Would you like Jesus to draw near?" And what you're doing is, you're inviting then Jesus to be near this part of your soul that was anxious and letting Him speak His truth. So, what this process is about is really integrating all that you know of God with all that you're experiencing in any given moment.

Tim Muehlhoff: Oh, that's good. So, quick question and a comment. One, do you take credit cards? I want to know what your rate is. I feel like, here! Take MasterCard. Second, so, in calm theory, we say that self-talk is everything. It's not part of the ballgame, it's that internal dialogue. So, everything you just said is internal-dialogue related, right?

Kim Miller: We all do self-talk. People don't like to admit it, because people think, "Oh, it sounds like I'm schizophrenic or have DID or something, right?" But look at the Psalmist, he's always saying, "O my soul, why are you downcast? Why are you downcast, O my soul?" The Psalmist is always talking to himself. We're always all talking to ourselves all the time, you know? When you have a feeling, that's really a part of yourself talking to you, and it's helpful to really stop and pay attention to it.

Tim Muehlhoff: That's really good.

Kim Miller: Yeah, you just become more intentional about that self-talk.

Chris Grace: So, anxiety, fear, other emotions, Kim, that you have seen in your practice, and is that you had in mind as you're writing this book and the steps, you know, when you see clients, when you go out and speak, when you do conferences. Which ones concerns you the most? In our culture today, what are you seeing out there that you're like, "This is where some of the biggest issues lie," And, which emotions right now ... Fear, anxiety, anger, sadness, which one's got you a little bit concerned and your antenna are up?

Kim Miller: I think there's a lot of anger out there right now, Chris. A lot because of what's happening in politics, and people don't really know how to deal with their anger these days. In addition to anxiety, I think there's a lot of grief and sadness. People are experiencing a lot of loss. Loss of loved ones, lost dreams. There's a lot of envy. People have a hard time dealing with envy of what other people have. I, myself, haven't been able to have children, so I regularly have envy of people with children, but that's an emotion I've been working on for eight plus years, and I really feel like I've learned how to submit that part of my life to God, and just trust him, and learn how to care for all the children out there in the world who don't have parents. There's a lot of kids who would love someone to care for them.

I've sort of adjusted my attention to focus on where is God leading me in this moment? And that was a process of working with the part of me that was feeling grief and envy, and putting it to work for me, so that I could become more of a servant in the Kingdom.

Chris Grace: You're trained in so many therapies. Your parents founded a very well-known one, Imago Therapy. I know you're Gottman trained, and some listeners know what that means, others ... You work in a variety of areas. How did that help you in this journey? Which of those things, and it's probably why you wrote this book, part of it, your own personal story and journey, obviously, has motivated you to do this. Where did you find the help and in the process and journey you went through? What helped you the most?

Kim Miller: Well, Imago has been extremely helpful to me and my marriage. Ken and I practice it all the time, and I like to integrate Imago and this process called Internal Family Systems, which views your soul as having different parts to it. So, for those of you who don't know, Imago Theory is that you're attracted to someone who is the composite of the negative characteristics of your primary caregivers, so that you can unconsciously recreate the situations of your youth, in which you were wounded, so that you can, as an adult, heal those unfinished childhood wounds. And so, you are attracted to somebody because they remind you of these characteristics, and you think, "Oh! They're finally going to solve my problems because they're so nice to me, even though they bug me in these ways. They're not doing what my parents did." But then after you get married, the romance seems to fade, and those issues really come to the surface, and what my parents say is that conflict is actually growth trying to happen.

Okay, so then that's when you need to put the Imago dialogue technique to work which involves mirroring the other person, validating them, and empathizing with them, and then taking turns and the other person does the same thing, and what I also encourage is that when the first person is sending, in order for the other person to be able to mirror them, to send on behalf on the part of you. So, for example, I would say to Ken ... Instead of saying, "Ken, I'm really angry with you for not taking out the trash," I would say, "Ken, I love you, and I'm committed to you, and there was a part of me that felt angry when you didn't take out the trash today."

Tim Muehlhoff: That is so wise. So, I wrote a book called "Communication Climates" ... There's a climate, all three of us have a climate, as soon as we start talking, there was a climate in this room between us. A bit of acknowledgement, trust, expectations, all those different kind of things. But, sometimes, we confuse weather with climate. So, in other words, we love southern California, but it's been raining way too much, and I hate rain. I just hate it. My wife will say, "Honey, it doesn't rain all the time in southern California." And I said, "No, it actually does, because it's raining again today." And she said, "But I can actually prove to you how many times it rains in a year." And it was pretty stunning how little it rains here.

But I can focus on that weather, and think the whole climate is bad. So, I love what you're saying. Instead of me saying, "All of me is mad at you right now, and our marriage is in the toilet right now," it's better to say, "There's a part of me ... And actually, our marriage is pretty good, but we're in a tough weather pattern right now that I'm not crazy about." So, I love that kind of forethought of just blanketing something with the negative emotion I'm feeling right at this particular moment. That's pretty sophisticated for couples to do that.

Kim Miller: It is really, really helpful, and it can just really change your life if you just talk that way in general.

Tim Muehlhoff: That's nice.

Kim Miller: And catch yourself thinking, "Oh, wait!" Catch yourself when you're having a negative thought, and realize, "You know what, actually, this is just a part of me that feels frustrated with this. Actually ..." Like, if you're being cut off on the road, "Actually, I'm pretty grateful that my car is working right now, and I haven't had an accident. But there's a part of me that's really not, that person cut me off." So just practice it on a daily basis. It really helps you.

Tim Muehlhoff: So, for with Chris, I could say, "Most of the time, I really don't understand what you're saying, but today you've been very lucid." Right? Is that kind of what you're saying.

Kim Miller: You got it. You just nailed it. You nailed it, Tim.

Chris Grace: That was one of the rare times I've ever heard you nail it. That's really insightful ... So let's try this, so another way ... Tim and I have spent a lot of time to him about gratitude, and what I hear Kim, you talking about is learning to turn something like this into that... You remember Frans de Waal, that study about the monkeys who received a pay of cucumbers, which they agreed to, and they loved the cucumbers. We all know that study, and then the monkeys right next to them received grapes, and these monkeys now are no longer grateful for that cucumber because they see something even better, so Alisa and I will constantly say things like, "Yeah, let's remember the cucumber. We were grateful for this." That idea that God really is good, and Kim, I love how you say this. Someone cuts me off, I can get very angry at that moment, or I could be grateful that I'm actually able to drive and I'm in a car, and I didn't get into an accident, or whatever.

And so, much of that is a way we do this internally, as well, to apply just a new perspective. Something, Tim, you talked about a lot, as well.

Kim Miller: And also, to take another step further. To realize that if another person is angry, that's a part of them that's angry, but they probably love you a lot. So if somebody is lambasting you, and you think, "Gosh, I thought that they loved me! I don't understand it," just to realize, "this is just a part of them that's angry with me, and maybe that part has been working really hard for them, and we should honor it, and ask it to change it's strategy a little bit. Now, can you speak on behalf of the part and tell me what you request?

Another thing my parents talk a lot about is changing frustrations into requests.

Chris Grace: Give us an example. Let's use a roommate situation.

Kim Miller: Okay, so if your roommate is not putting the top on the toothpaste tube, right? So, you could be angry, and you could say, "I'm so tired of you doing that day after day." You could say, "Would you be willing ... I so appreciate all that, you making your bed every day. Would you be willing to put the top on the toothpaste, too?" Just changing the frustration into a request.

Tim Muehlhoff: So, Kim, let's go back for a second, and this again comes from my interest in the public dialogue that we're having today ... I just had to ask you this, when you said this about this part of you. So, today we're seeing a demonization of people. We're seeing, "I don't like all of you. There's not one part of me that likes any part of you." Which, we would say in a marriage, we would say, "oh, come on now, let's step back and actually take a look at that."

I had a woman come up to me at a marriage conference, and her husband was behind her, and she said "my husband does nothing for this marriage. Nothing." Now, you could feel the heat, right? And so I looked at her, and the older I get, the more bold I get, so I said to her, "Hey, can I ask you a quick question? Is he here at this conference?" She said yes. I said, "well, couldn't that be one good thing?" Kim, she literally looked at him, went, "pffft!" And walked away. She was that angry. Right? So, that kind of thinking, where your spouse is all good or all bad ... In the political conversation, that party is all bad, my party is all good. That kind of thinking, we have to challenge it. It's very unfair to the person that they suddenly went from being good to all bad. That encompasses all of you.

Kim Miller: Can I throw out another way to respond to that woman? I imagine that if she were audience, I might say to her, "So, it sounds like a part of you is feeling really frustrated with your husband right now, that he's not contributing enough to the marriage." And then say, maybe, "I really appreciate that part of you for how much it cares about your marriage, and how much it's working to have a good marriage. Would you be willing to make a request of your husband, something specific that he could do to help you?" Maybe something like that. So engaging in dialogue. It's like throwing darts and you don't know exactly what's going to hit the target, so maybe... What you said could've been exactly what she needed to hear, and sometimes somebody just needs to have a good challenge, and then sometimes, somebody needs to come alongside, and be guided into another way. Kind of like children.

Tim Muehlhoff: And when she walked away, I did grab her, and come back, and I said literally everything that you just said, word for word. I'm serious, I said, "Excuse me, could you please ... I have a friend, Kim Miller, that ... " [crosstalk]

Kim Miller: I've been challenged-

Tim Muehlhoff: But that's so good!

Kim Miller: Because my method, it is like coming alongside and ... but, you know what? I say, "Oh, think of your parts as like children that you need to really embrace and guide into a more helpful strategy." Note that I'm not a parent, and so I don't know if that actually works and so ... So, I've had people with their parents say, "Yeah, sometimes you just gotta put the kid in a closet," or something. "Befriending them doesn't always work." I'm just kidding, nobody said that to me, but sometimes you have to really be firm, so I think whatever works. And, personally, I have found that the befriending strategy works a lot because we have these protector parts, like that woman was... She had a very, very entrenched protector part that was protecting an exile in her that was carrying a lot of pain. And our protector parts are not going to shift in the context of criticism. They need to be befriended, and we also need to ask their permission if we're going to try to make any kind of change in that internal system

Tim Muehlhoff: That's good.

Chris Grace: Kim, so many of these things are exactly why we've asked you to be part of our conferences that we put on here-

Tim Muehlhoff: And podcasts! She's part of our podcast from here on out!

Chris Grace: Kim, you come by, and you do just free relationship advice for many of the couples that come to our conferences, and you've been doing that with us for a number of years. We just want to thank you for that. Listen, let's continue this conversation, Tim, because I've got a bunch more questions. [crosstalk]

Kim, thanks for coming. We're going to end it here. We're going to start with a whole new set of questions on another podcast, what do you think?

Tim Muehlhoff: I love it.

Kim Miller: Thanks so much.

Mandy Catto: Thanks for listening to The Art of Relationships. This podcast is only made possible through generous donations from listeners just like you. If you like it and want to help keep the podcast going, visit our website at cmr.biola.edu and make a donation today!