Relationships in The Red Zone

It's hard to get out of the "red zone", or even recognize when your relationship is in it. In today's episode, OC United Director of the Domestic Abuse Initiative, Donna Mroz, talks Dr. Chris Grace and Dr. Tim Muehlhoff through the telltale signs of abuse and support for those seeking help.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another Art of Relationships podcast. We are grateful for listeners like you. Let's get right into it.

Chris Grace: Welcome to another Art of Relationships podcast. Tim.

Tim Muehlhoff: It's great to be with you, Chris.

Chris Grace: Yeah, it's good to be with you. And we want to thank you all for joining in. You probably got us on cmr.biola.edu or anywhere else you can find podcasts throughout the country and throughout the world.

Tim Muehlhoff: Spotify.

Chris Grace: You found it, baby. So Tim, we just have fun when we have guests come in and today's a very serious topic, but we have a wonderful guest and I'm just going to turn it over to you.

Tim Muehlhoff: Thanks, Chris. The CMR is about all kinds of relationships. We certainly hope we help relationships flourish. We take relationships that are struggling, hopefully, we give them guidance, tips, strategies, but Chris, there are some relationships that aren't just struggling, they're in danger.

Chris Grace: Yeah, in fact, we would say there are a lot of relationships that we would say are not just in that yellow zone, but they are in the red zone and they may not recognize it, but most other people do. And that's what we want to talk about today.

Tim Muehlhoff: And let me give you some statistics of people in the red zone and this applies to the United States. It's estimated that 21,000 women per week, or 3 million women annually, are assaulted by their relational partner. Battery is the single largest cause of injury to women, more frequent than auto accidents, muggings and rapes combined. Women in the US are nine times more danger in their own homes than they are in the street. And that's just a sad reality and we don't want to ignore that, we want to address that. I think James is very clear that true religion in the sight of God has caring for those who need advocates. And that's what we want to do. Well we have our favorite advocate on.

Chris Grace: Yeah, we do. We have someone that you guys are going to love. And Tim we've always said this too, the reason we want to bring on this particular guest is because anytime you're in this relationship in which you find yourself on the red zone, the answer is there is zero leeway in this. If there's an instance of abuse in your relationship, we say you need to get out and you need to seek help immediately. And we're going to talk about those levels. So Tim.

Tim Muehlhoff: Because it is hard. It is hard to get out. It's hard to recognize it sometimes, and it's hard to safely exit. Well, one of the great things Chris, that we do at the CMR, we call it the neighbor love initiative, which means we go out and help people with the resources we have at a great university like Biola University. So this was probably three years ago. Everybody kept saying, you got to meet and Donna. You have to meet Donna. So I finally, it was like meeting Elvis. It was like Cher. It was like Bono. And so Donna and I met and we just absolutely hit it off. And she said you've got to come to my support group for women that are currently experiencing abuse or come out of abusive relationships. And I started to teach verbal and physical self-defense and the CMR has partnered with Donna. So I want to introduce our listeners to Donna Mroz. She is the director at OC United when it comes to domestic violence abuse. So Donna welcome so much to our podcast.

Donna Mroz: Thank you so much. It's so great that you and that Chris and Tim do this because when men speak out in this area, it speaks volumes. So thank you for doing this, it's really important.

Tim Muehlhoff: Well, thank you.

Chris Grace: We're so glad to have you on.

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah. We're so glad to be able to do it and have the resources to do it and to team up with people like you, you are amazing in what you do. So why don't you just give us like your job description, what's OC United and what do you do specifically with OC United? And then we'll kind of get into your story.

Donna Mroz: OC United is the nonprofit, it's in Fullerton. And we have different initiatives, we work with homelessness, we work with fostered out youth and domestic abuse. And Valencia Park neighborhood, we do things over there too. And so my job description is taking lots of phone calls from women who are in abuse. And at a certain point, I decided that I looked around and couldn't find any support groups for domestic abuse so I decided to start one. So that's kind of how this all started. And so we started meeting at Fullerton PD and just a wonderful, really nice to connect the women with the police in a positive way, because a lot of them have had very negative experiences with the police. So it was just a beautiful combination of the police and the women. And because of COVID, we can't meet there right now, but we'll be meeting again there soon. We're meeting over at OC United right now.

Tim Muehlhoff: That's great.

Chris Grace: Well, shout out to Fullerton police for doing that. Fullerton is one of these neighborhoods cities here in Southern California, and it's a very large city and very influential. And so to have that police department, Donna, partner with you, what a great testament, right? I mean, here are these police officers that now get to see these women almost day by day and now they recognize them. And so when they go out on a call, wow, how awesome is that?

Donna Mroz: It really makes it personal. They start to see the women for, that they're victims. These are victims. So when they go out there, they have a little bit more compassion, I think, a little bit more empathy. And the women, they just love the police. They come in and they talk to us like the chief of police has come in and done presentations and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it's awesome.

Tim Muehlhoff: And our partnership has been really special and has spurred on a really unique event when it comes to Valentine's Day. And you've told me, I've learned so much from you, Donna, you've told me that Valentine's Day is just, can be a very hurtful day for women when all the hype behind it, we've done podcasts on the negative hype of Valentine's Day. But for women in abusive relationships, it can be a very hurtful day.

Donna Mroz: Very hurtful.

Tim Muehlhoff: So explain that a little bit to us. And then tell us a little bit about this event we've done three years in a row where we, that Valentine's Day is for everybody.

Donna Mroz: So Valentine's Day is really hurtful to someone who's coming out of abuse or in it still, of course. And especially in the recovery part of it, when you're trying to recover, Valentine's Day, it's supposed to be the love day and so when you've been hurt by someone that you love, it becomes a very hurtful day. And a lot of the women just want to forget that it's even happening. So one year Tim and his students got together and came and brought bouquets of flowers and cards to the women. And they were so surprised. They knew nothing about it. I didn't tell them, I couldn't believe I kept it a secret, but I did. And it was just tears just rolled down their faces, they prayed with them, gave them cards and they had these flowers and I got all of these pictures, on my tacks of all these women, with their kitchen table, with their flowers there and stuff. So it was a beautiful, beautiful thing. And we've done it three years in a row.

And this year we did drive through, we had to do drive through because of COVID, but that was even fun. We had Trader Joe's gave us, gave Tim, all of us actually gave us the roses, candy, gift cards. And then Tim gave away his book.

Tim Muehlhoff: The God Conversation, yeah.

Donna Mroz: The God Conversation. And so we all got that and it was beautiful. They still haven't stopped talking about it.

Tim Muehlhoff: We're not talking like a single rose, we're talking a Miss Universe bouquet that was so cool. And shout out to Albertsons, the very first year it was Albertsons. And then these last two years Trader Joe's has been such a great community member, loves what the CMR is doing and things like that. So it was just this fun thing to be able to give away all of these things to women and let them know that God loves them and that Valentine's Day ought to be for everybody.

Chris Grace: Tim, tell me about your students and how did they get involved and then what was their reaction?

Tim Muehlhoff: Okay. So the very first time and Donna knows this because you've actually met the organizers. So Chris, we do a section of my gender class on gendered violence and we did it until I invited Donna to come in and Donna came in and gave a lecture. Donna, you could have heard a pin drop. I mean, when you were done and here's the funny thing, Chris, so we do course evaluations at the end of every semester, all of them, the highlight was Donna. And I'm like, hey, the woman came in for one day. I was with you also, nothing. They didn't even remember me.

But then afterwards, one of my favorite students, Bobbi, she came up to me and she said I've got an idea. What if we did this for Valentine's Day. And the whole class and then we invited other classes to come and Donna, I did self-defense training.

Donna Mroz: They love that.

Tim Muehlhoff: Which is so good to do, verbal and physical training. So all the students were out there and nobody knew it except Donna and me. And then I said, "Hey, I've got one last surprise for you." And open that door. And women burst out in tears as soon people-

Donna Mroz: They flooded in and the women were like, they didn't even know what to do.

Tim Muehlhoff: That's right.

Donna Mroz: It was so beautiful. So beautiful.

Tim Muehlhoff: A quick shout out to St. Jude, this would have happened again, but COVID, so we had a masseuse, a massage therapist came.

Donna Mroz: I remember that.

Tim Muehlhoff: It was so funny, she sets up her chair. She goes, now, if anybody wants to, Chris, she didn't get even get the words out of her mouth.

Chris Grace: And they ran.

Tim Muehlhoff: People were running to the chair and it was just great.

Donna Mroz: I was one of them.

Tim Muehlhoff: You deserve it.

Donna Mroz: I was one of them.

Tim Muehlhoff: So Donna, when you listened to these statistics, as heartbreaking as they are, but for you these are not just random stats that we're talking about your life story. You were one of these people that fit into these statistics. Can you, I've heard you tell this before, it's heartbreaking and powerful, the decision you made at the end to redeem it, but give us just a quick story of your firsthand experience with this.

Donna Mroz: When I was young, we moved here when I was about two years old and I realized pretty quickly on that my dad was very abusive and my mom was belittled by him a lot, a lot. And then his violence came out towards me and my sister and so we grew up in domestic violence, both of us. And I think the most hurtful thing of my whole childhood was one time I picked him a rose and I took it up to him to the front door and he slapped me. He backhanded me and slapped me onto the ground and said, "Don't pick the roses because it leaves a bare spot on the rosebush." And that just sums up my childhood. Everything had to look good on the outside, but the inside was horrible. It was just horrible.

So when I was about 16 years old, I saw my sister getting abused by my dad sexually. And so I told someone at school and then they came to my house and within six months, my dad was having someone take me up north and drop me off and I was homeless when I was about 17 for about six months. And at that point, I don't think Tim knows this part, but since this is about what it is, is that there was a lot of abuse that took place on the streets, rape, lots of things like that happened in my life.

So I finally made it back down here to Orange County, moved in with an older couple and met this guy that was going to save me from my evil family. And anyways, he came looking pretty good and within probably a year after we were married, he started to verbally abuse me and then physical abuse happened after my kids were all born. He started to become physically violent. And just want to add this in here, because if you don't know this, that domestic violence is one of the worst forms of child abuse. It's really hard on the kids. It hurts them deeply and they feel like they have to take sides. And a lot of times they'll side with the abuser to keep themselves safe.

So anyways, time went by and several different incidents happen. But one time he took me into the bathroom and he held ax to my throat and said he was going to kill me. And I believed him because when you have an ax to your throat that's pretty real. And I just remember, I kept saying the kids, the kids, because the kids were going to be home from school. And finally by the grace of God, he let go of my hair and just walked out. So I locked the bathroom door and I remember slouching down against the wall and crying out to God because I thought in my mind divorce is wrong. God's going to be mad at me. So I can't get divorced because then God will be mad at me. But I knew I can't do this either because now our lives are in danger. This is getting serious.

So I gathered up stuff, started putting it in my van and just got what I needed, just birth certificates, things like that. Got everything I could in my van, gathered up my kids and got out of Dodge. And that began a very long process in the court systems, with him stalking, restraining orders, all kinds of different things. It was so hard on the kids, that's what I remember. I just wanted it to stop for them.

Tim Muehlhoff: When you left, where did you go? Literally where's the place you go?

Donna Mroz: Two people at my church let me use their apartment. So we camped out in a one bedroom apartment. And then my biggest thing was to get my kids through school, get them through high school, get that much done. And so at that time I was working as a hairdresser and in the middle of that developed a non-profit called The Grape Vine. And anyways, that's a whole nother story. But then my daughter got pregnant at about 16, no, at 17, she got pregnant and she asked me what to do. And I said, "Whatever you do, I'll support you." And so she ended up having my granddaughter Haley.

And at a certain point, she got a job. And at this job there was someone that was stalking her, a older man and we told the police and they weren't do anything and she couldn't get a temporary restraining order. She couldn't get anything done. And I went to the police station, ironically enough, it was Fullerton PD, so God redeems everything. He just does amazing things. And just said to the person in charge, "I don't want to have to bury my daughter and please do something." Well about a week later I was burying my daughter. So she was killed by someone who stalked her. So stalking is a very serious issue, very serious issue. And not to be looked on lightly.

Tim Muehlhoff: Donna, let me just ask this though. I'm looking at the cross around your neck right now. And I think even our listeners who have gone through hard, hard things like you have, how did you retain your faith? How did that happen?

Donna Mroz: I was doing classes for teenagers on relationships at this point because I wanted to help them not to get into the same thing I got into. And a young man asked me, interestingly enough, it was a young man and he was mad at me about something. Because I called Jesus Christ my hero. He's like, "Where's your hero now?" And I'm so glad he said that to me because what happened is in my mind, I thought, wow, he's embracing my daughter. That's why she's in heaven today. So, wow. I have a son in heaven too. Both of them passed away, but they're both cheering me on. And if not for him, they wouldn't be there. If not for the cross and the resurrection and what Jesus did, they wouldn't be in heaven today. So I didn't really blame God. I didn't understand why and I still don't, but God didn't do it.

Tim Muehlhoff: And you chose to redeem it.

Donna Mroz: Yes.

Tim Muehlhoff: You chose to do what you're doing now and help people in that situation.

Donna Mroz: Yes.

Chris Grace: Donna, How long did it take, do you think for you to get to that point? This wasn't overnight.

Donna Mroz: No, it took me 23 years.

Chris Grace: What was that process? What do you remember actively doing things or do you think time heals?

Donna Mroz: I didn't know what domestic violence was. This was a long time ago. This was 30 some years ago and the shelters were just barely getting started. They didn't talk about domestic violence. So I didn't know. I just thought, well, this is just the way it is. I grew up with it and then here it is now and some people, this is just the way it goes.

Tim Muehlhoff: Well Donna, a huge part of our audience are college students. And so boy, if you could address them, what are the signs, they're in a dating relationship, what are the telltale signs that you would say, you need to listen to me. What would those be?

Donna Mroz: When someone's jealous, a lot of times we look at that as, oh my gosh, look how much they care about me. I'm everything to them. No, when someone's jealous, that's a huge red flag. Huge red flag. You should still be able to have your friends. The jealousy isolates you after time. So you don't want to be with someone that you're only with them all the time. And if they're jealous, I'd say, get out.

The other one is control. When they want to control you and tell you how to dress, what to do, who to hang out with, many times they'll villainize your friends and your family to get you isolated and all alone so that no one will say to you, hey, this isn't a good thing. They don't come with a pitchfork and horns. They don't come that way. Their personality many times is really like, wow, great personality, but character traits, not so much.

Chris Grace: Do you find these character traits start to show up in ways like jealousy and controlling?

Donna Mroz: Yes.

Chris Grace: And it's a slower process, right? I mean, here comes your knight in shining armor who happens to probably be this wonderful man.

Donna Mroz: Right.

Chris Grace: And when do you want to take notice, take warning? The jealousy thing is a great sign and, and is it also friends and family start to notice this is?

Donna Mroz: People will come to you and say things, but there's this thing it's called the Stockholm syndrome. And it's, you're blinded by it.

Chris Grace: You just don't want to talk about it.

Donna Mroz: You align yourself with them and so you start protecting them. If people say they don't like them, you're like, no, they're really good. And you start enabling it and doing all that kind of stuff. You get into, like, I called it a tornado and a cycle all at the same time. You get into this cycle and it's like the bad thing happens and then there's like the honeymoon phase and then there's like, everything's okay for a little while and then the tension building starts up again, like you're walking on eggshells. And so it's confusing after a while because you think, well, this is going to be the last time. This is going to be the last time. And they don't know him like I know him, many times people say that.

Chris Grace: Boy, how many times have we heard that in relationship counseling? You don't know him like how you do. He's a very kind, very sweet. Yes, he did this messed up one time or twice, but he really is loving and kind after that.

Donna Mroz: Right.

Chris Grace: And it's really just a sad cycle as you call it. That tornado that starts and man.

Donna Mroz: Yeah. Go ahead.

Tim Muehlhoff: I was going to say the cycle, you very eloquently mentioned the cycle of abuse, but let's just identify it. The cycle of abuse has been described by people in this field. We actually have a blog on it. A couple of blogs if you go to our website, but the cycle of abuse traditionally is tension builds up. Boy, talk about it in a time of COVID, this is on steroids.

Donna Mroz: Yes.

Tim Muehlhoff: Tension builds up, whatever. There's an explosion of some type, that can be verbal, it can be emotional, it can be physical. But then what you're describing that is so confusing is what we call the remorse stage, honeymoon stage, where women are often say, oh, that's the guy I married. That's the guy I'm in, he's treating me like a queen. He's apologizing profusely.

Donna Mroz: You maximize that and minimize the bad.

Tim Muehlhoff: Oh wow.

Donna Mroz: You minimize all the bad stuff and go, well, that's not that bad because look at this really nice thing that he did. And then the Stockholm syndrome sets up when they do a nice thing and then a mean thing and a nice thing and then a mean thing. It confuses your brain after time.

Tim Muehlhoff: So Donna, let's talk about the verbal real quick, just for a second because I think some people are like, okay, I kind of can formulate the physical. Although very quickly we would include, I've known pinching.

Donna Mroz: Pinching.

Tim Muehlhoff: Pinching, a woman is on the ground he won't let her up.

Donna Mroz: Right. Pushing.

Tim Muehlhoff: Pushing, stuff like that. So talk about the verbal for a second. What does that mean? What does that look like, verbal abuse?

Donna Mroz: Verbal abuse comes in all different forms. But from my experience, it's worse. It's one of the worst forms of abuse because it cuts deep. And Tim has taught us to think of some good things about ourselves. And when you come out of violence like that, domestic abuse like that, it's very hard to think of those things because you've been told you're nothing, you're a bad mom, all these names that you're called. So it doesn't have to be cursing names. It can just be belittling you, just belittling you along the way. And so verbal abuse and it can go as far as calling you cursing names as well.

Chris Grace: And Donna, in this day and age, a lot of our students and a lot of the women that you work with, that verbal abuse extends to text messages.

Donna Mroz: Yes it does, technology.

Chris Grace: Technology now, many of them will just receive these very ugly, vile, mean texts along with nice ones. And do you think a text message qualifies as verbal abuse?

Donna Mroz: It does. Any form of communication that's communicating that you're less than. It starts chipping away at the very person that you are and you start not liking yourself after a while.

Chris Grace: And the jealousy verbal abuse also extends to, I think like for example, trying to protect or keep you off of Instagram or to keep you off of some of these social media sites and control your sites, right?

Donna Mroz: Yes, cut you off. Yes, control your sites, looking at your phone all the time. I mean, when we get into all the technology, looking at your phone, checking your emails, checking all your messages, monitoring everything you do on your phone is definitely a form of abuse, that's cyber abuse, actually.

Chris Grace: It is, it's cyber abuse and it's just as horrible and rotten as is verbal and physical.

Donna Mroz: It's just as bad.

Chris Grace: That's right.

Donna Mroz: It's just as bad.

Tim Muehlhoff: And here's what's so important about the groups that you do. So, Chris, I've borrowed a lot from Chris Grace, I just hate to say that publicly. It just gnaws at me. But reflected appraisal theory. So remember when I brought all those mirrors, Donna?

Donna Mroz: Yes.

Tim Muehlhoff: And Chris, I've lived a pretty sheltered life. I asked women to write down on the mirror comments that were made to them and I couldn't believe it. I could not believe it because when they look in the mirror, they're seeing the comments, that's reflected appraisal theory. So what was really interesting is then we gave out more mirrors and so okay, now you need to write down the positives and exactly what you said, some women maybe eked out one.

Donna Mroz: Right.

Tim Muehlhoff: So that's why the group comes along and says, oh my gosh, here, you're this, you're this, you're this, you're this.

Donna Mroz: That's right. That's where the group comes in.

Tim Muehlhoff: That's where the group comes in. That's what's so powerful about what you do. So can you tell us a little bit about that? If people are listening and they're in the general area, Orange County, how would they get a hold of these groups, find out more information?

Donna Mroz: You could go on OC United's website and there will be a number there and a way to get ahold of me. And then usually I talk to you first and then we decide if it's a good fit for you. And you can either come on Zoom meeting on Thursday night or come in person on Monday night. And the beauty of it is if you're at court, well not now because of COVID, but usually we'll go to court with you. We advocate for one another. We call each other. We make sure that, to tell each other, "Hey, we're going to make it." So one thing we never say in our group, we just don't, is you need to. No one gets to use those words you need to, because we don't know what the other person needs, we just know what we need. And so we just walk with you. We're on a journey. We're just journeying together through this whole thing. And it's beautiful to have a support group. It really is.

Tim Muehlhoff: And then I would add to that for people that are local at Biola University, this is why we have drop-in hours, totally confidential. But if you come, you can explain what's happening. We think that that's incredibly important is to not be in silence about this issue.

Donna Mroz: Yeah, don't be in silence. It's tell someone.

Tim Muehlhoff: Tell someone, yeah.

Donna Mroz: Tell someone.

Chris Grace: Donna, there are a lot of listeners who are outside of Orange County, even LA County, Southern California, throughout the US and international. So certainly there are referrals, if you get a call from someone who's outside, you guys have a connection list with others. How does that work? They can still go on?

Donna Mroz: Yes. Yes. They can come on the Zoom meeting on Thursday nights still, but 211 is a great one to call if you're just kind of like in a kind of, I need to do something now. And OC United is in the process of getting on that list of 211. And then if you need a shelter, the Sheepfold Shelter is a wonderful shelter. Just really, really will take very good care of you and nurture your spiritual health. And Laura's House is another good resource. Laura's House has classes and different empowerment classes and things like that. And there's other shelters too, but those two shelters are the ones that I really, they're here in Orange County, that I really like those two.

Chris Grace: Many of them are trained and are ready for any phone call from anybody. They have referrals outside.

Donna Mroz: Yes.

Chris Grace: So we ran a home for runaway kids, my wife and I did and we had just a whole list of police departments, resources, the 211, different shelters, different homes. And we could call and do that. So we've talked with parents and kids all of the time. And so even if it's the-

Donna Mroz: Yeah, we have like a resource, a whole list of resources. And then the Sheepfold also has a list of resources. But if you're being abused, the biggest thing I could say is to make sure to tell someone, tell one person, at least. And then I don't think you mentioned this statistic, but when you're getting out, you really need support because that's the most dangerous times is when you're getting out. But that doesn't mean don't get out, it means do it anyways. Do it anyways, but get support.

Chris Grace: Donna, do you have any also practical things like that when you make that call, when you finally tell that person, usually you're going to be, of course, in a vulnerable place situation that the abuser is probably not there at that time. Do you recommend that they make, do they bring in police at this time? My sense is that they find somebody that can help them and they get out into a safe place first.

Donna Mroz: Yeah. That would be just calling a shelter and getting that resource. Or like, if someone calls me and says, I need to get out, I can help them to make that journey. The police come in handy when you need a restraining order and it's very hard to get one. It's not that easy to get a restraining order, but many times you have to have one else I mean, your life is in danger, you have to have a restraining order. That's what they're for. And if you get a restraining order and the person violates it, a lot of times women will say, "Well, I put him in jail." No, he put his self in jail by violating the restraining order. So you're not doing anything to him or her, depending on who's abusive. You're just getting yourself safe. That's all.

Tim Muehlhoff: Yeah. Let me just close with one observation that when you were speaking, you said that you were under this illusion because you were a Christian God would be mad at you if you left and let's just nip this in the bud right away, God does not expect anyone to be a punching bag, verbally, physically or emotionally. And we've predominantly focused on women, but we do know 5% ish is female to male.

Donna Mroz: That's right.

Tim Muehlhoff: And so do not make this a spiritual issue that God wants you, now get out, get safe, get help, go to the elders, go to your church leadership, go to a support group, but you need to be safe and the kids need to be safe. That is priority number one. And don't stay there under this idea that God, well to love them unconditionally means I need to take abuse. That is unequivocally not true.

Donna Mroz: Well, someone once told me this too, is that submission because that always comes up like you need to submit, submit means this guy, I asked him one time, what does that mean to you, submission? That your wife submits to you, let's say it ended there. He said that I would want to wrap my arms around her and she would let me. That's a whole different thing.

Chris Grace: That's a beautiful picture.

Donna Mroz: Isn't that a beautiful picture? And that's how God is. God wants to wrap his arms around us, but we have to let him.

Tim Muehlhoff: What a great place to end.

Chris Grace: Donna, do we have as we just last question, and maybe this idea then, you said things have changed over the last 30, 40 years since you've got in and there are just more resources.

Donna Mroz: Yes.

Chris Grace: There are more people who are aware. There's more definitions.

Donna Mroz: More training.

Chris Grace: There's more training. I mean, there are people who now are, if you come to them, they are required as they must respond and help. And that's very different than it was. Now it seems as if the preponderance of support is in favor of the victim today, when in the past it really wasn't.

Donna Mroz: It's come just so far in the last several years. So far. Yes.

Chris Grace: And so there are resources out there for all of our listeners and anyone that's struggling with this.

Tim Muehlhoff: Well, Donna, you're our hero. We love what you do. We'd love that we get to do the neighbor love initiative and get to partner with groups like you. So thank you so much for coming on our podcast and talking about an issue that's difficult, but you are a great example of how God redeems things.

Donna Mroz: Yes he does.

Tim Muehlhoff: He does.

Donna Mroz: Amen to that.

Chris Grace: He does. He's a great Redeemer. He never gives up. He never stops loving and there is no circumstances beyond which He is not able. So it's OC United.

Donna Mroz: OC United.

Chris Grace: And is there any slashes or just OCUnited.org?

Donna Mroz: Just OC United.

Chris Grace: And Donna Mroz. And Mroz, sounds like Miraz, sorry. You can get them hooked up and connected with lots of different-

Donna Mroz: Right, I can do different things like that. And I can even just listen. I can listen.

Chris Grace: Awesome. And that's probably one of the, these women and men need most at this point, just to be able to hear, be heard and then to know that they are safe.

Donna Mroz: Yes.

Tim Muehlhoff: And please check out the CMR website. We actually did an entire blog on the cycle of violence. So you can go to our archives with the blogs and you can find that. But we're here to be a resource to everybody, and God has particular soft heart for women and men that are marginalized, facing abuse. And I think James made that very clear that that's true religion in the sight of God. So Donna, thank you so much for being here.

Donna Mroz: Well, thank you for having me.

Chris Grace: Donna, thank you.

Donna Mroz: Thank you so much.

Chris Grace: Thank you.

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