In this episode, Chris Grace is joined by psychology student Patrick Flanigan to explore the power of biblical discipleship and why following Jesus was never meant to be a solo journey. Together, they unpack the difference between mentorship and discipleship and what it looks like to intentionally walk alongside someone in their faith.

They discuss why discipleship requires honesty, vulnerability, and a willingness to be inconvenienced for others. They also explore how having someone further along in their faith can help us navigate doubt and hardship, why disciplers don’t need to have everything figured out, and how being fully known can open the door to deeper spiritual growth.

Whether you’re looking for someone to disciple you or wondering how God might use you to invest in someone else, this conversation offers practical encouragement to take the next step. Patrick and Chris challenge listeners to be proactive, embrace vulnerability, and pursue relationships where they can both learn from someone ahead of them and pour into someone coming behind them.

Resources Mentioned:

• The Great Commission (Matthew 28) - Jesus’ call to His followers to go and make disciples, a reminder that discipleship is part of the calling of every Christian.
• Paul and Timothy - A biblical model of discipleship that demonstrates what it can look like to intentionally invest in someone’s faith and prepare them to disciple others.
• Matthew 25: The Sheep and the Goats - A passage that has shaped Patrick’s desire to remain willing to be inconvenienced in order to serve and invest in others.

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: www.youtube.com/@biola-cmr

Join the Conversation:

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About the Host:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., is passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As co-director of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, he combines the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about his work at cmr.biola.edu.

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Chris: 00:00
Hey, have you ever wondered what it really means to be discipled or to disciple someone else? In today's world, we hear a lot about mentors and influencers, but biblical discipleship is something much deeper. In this episode, I'm joined by Patrick Flanagan as we explore why discipleship is essential to the Christian life, how it helps us navigate doubt and hardship, and what it looks like to faithfully invest in the spiritual growth of others. So whether you're looking for someone to walk alongside you or wondering how God might use you in someone else's life, I think you'll find this conversation both encouraging and challenging.

Mandy: 00:40
Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

Chris: 00:50
So we're welcome on this podcast with uh my friend Patrick Flanagan. Um Patrick is joining us all the way from, I don't know where, Ohio, probably, was that right, Patrick? That's right, Ohio State. Ohio State. Patrick is a student at Ohio State after he transferred from the world's greatest university, Viola University, to this school that really doesn't really have much going for. The football team is, I mean, they're better than Biola's, that's for sure. Even though Biola has been Patrick, Biola has been undefeated in football for over 140 years.

Patrick: 01:32
Oh, I remember that joke, trust me.

Chris: 01:35
Excuse me. Yeah, we don't have a football team. And you transferred to one of the greatest universities there is in America. Uh, how was that? I mean, you you left the beautiful confines not only of the campus, but my classroom. And uh I I think we met a few times, and you're like, oh, that's plenty enough for me, man. I'm out of here. So, how was that transfer to Ohio State? I know you did it with good intentions and a good heart.

Speaker 2: 02:04
Yeah, I mean, I think it was it was really difficult. It was uh learning to trust the Lord in a lot of ways, but uh, I saw I saw God come in my life and do some pretty amazing things. So it was difficult, but it was worth it.

Chris: 02:15
Oh, no doubt, Patrick. Um, and I know your family's from Ohio State, and your dad even has a connection there.

Speaker 2: 02:23
Uh that could be putting it mildly, yes.

Chris: 02:25
Tell us real quickly. I mean, you're this isn't the cut, you know, the topic of your dad the whole time, but he's got a great position there at the university.

Speaker 2: 02:36
Actually, it's interesting you bring that up because it's a really great segue into talking about discipleship. But my dad is the team doc for the Ohio State football team.

Chris: 02:45
Wait, you just said it the the right way. The Ohio State.

Speaker 2: 02:49
The Ohio State. You gotta have the. We uh we tried to trademark the V, and I don't think we got it, but we tried.

Chris: 02:56
Trademar the V. That boy, could you imagine this? Probably the third most used word in the English language.

Speaker 2: 03:02
Hey, but we tried though.

Chris: 03:04
So tell us what happened with your dad or what he does.

Speaker 2: 03:09
Yeah, so he is one of the team docs for the football team, um, which means he gets a lot of opportunity to not only help these athletes with some injuries and some um, I say disappointing games and everything, but also to be a uh voice of faith there and a voice of mentorship that can help them uh shape them as men as well as the goal. And so it's a it's a position with a lot of influence, but also uh with a lot of influence comes a lot of potential to do good.

Chris: 03:33
Yeah, um, and that is really kind of been something that that was ingrained in you from a young age. I mean, you stood on those sidelines in the stands, and you saw the impact your dad was having on these young men.

Speaker 2: 03:49
Hmm. Yeah, well, I mean, he got the football recently, it was hockey before that, but yeah, I mean a lifetime Ohio State for sure.

Chris: 03:56
A lot of injuries, either sport, right? Oh, yeah, lots of injuries. And uh, Patrick, tell me how that uh kind of shaped a little bit um because shaped you a little bit because there's this notion out there that um discipleship and mentorship and you know are are are really the same thing, but I I don't think they are, are they?

Speaker 2: 04:22
No, I I think they're definitely not. I think there's a lot of differences for sure.

Chris: 04:27
Yeah, tell me what those are. I mean, you hear here you have I I I would think you mean like we have biblical discipleship, right? And then and then it feels like there's more worldly mentorship. Would you agree?

Speaker 2: 04:40
Yeah, and I think uh worldly mentorship is always tied around some kind of um quid pro quo, where it's whether it's in a career or in a friendship, there's always some element of I can mentor you, but in a way that sometimes it looks good in my career, looks good in my social circle, or whatever it may be. And biblical discipleship is really a lot more like wholesale. It's kind of the whole person, it's mentoring your spirit. And a lot of times biblical mentorship or discipleship has nothing to do with what you can get out of it. It's just something that you give, right? And so I think there's a lot of big differences, but I think that's probably one of the biggest ones.

Chris: 05:15
Yeah, and just staying with that for a little bit, what um what did you see early on? Did you see more of one or the other growing up or in your in your time as a student at a couple of different places?

Speaker 2: 05:29
Yeah, so I think it's so common to see people that want to mentor you. I think it's a lot more rare to see people that want to disciple you. So I think I've seen a lot of people that you know have mentored me professionally or in a bunch of other different ways, but the people that have been willing to disciple me are are much fewer and far between.

Chris: 05:46
But is it because it's harder or or are there are less biblical disciplers around? Or are well why is that?

Speaker 2: 05:56
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a couple things. I think one is that to disciple someone requires being willing to be inconvenienced. And that's something that in our American mentality of independence and comfort is not something a lot of people are willing to do, or they don't feel like they need to do it. And so it may be one of those things where it's just kind of culturally not super common in our day and age, but when it is there, it's it makes a huge difference.

Chris: 06:23
Yeah, it it feels like you replace the quid pro quo, you know, uh you do I'll do this for you, you do this for me, kind of, you know, I guess transaction that we're used to. And and and it feels like there's a difference in the heart, uh, or at least where they where you go, right? I mean, if I'm mentoring you, right, and I'm and you want to become the next Chris Grace, well, you know, first of all, good luck, right? But second of all, uh, you know, I I would start to go, oh, okay, uh, Patrick, um, you know, try these classes and make sure you get this good experience and this good internship, and I'll help you write a good, you know, letter to a grad school. Um, but you need to make sure and get out there and do these. I mean, that's that's great mentorship.

Speaker 2: 07:13
Yeah, I mean, I think that's on a worldly standard, that's exactly what you're looking for for sure.

Chris: 07:17
Yeah, and and so what would where would we go different? So I so I guess I would if I'm mentoring, you know, you that I could I could I think the world can see that, but you're talking about uh a person that will step into your our lives and begin to ask the the the deep heart kind of soul searching questions, is is that right?

Speaker 2: 07:44
Yeah, and I think um like one of the things that makes discipleship so unique is realizing that there is a lot more to life than just career, right? Well, like, and that's one of the things where if someone's like you were talking about mentoring me with a recommendation letter or something, that's great, and I could get in the best graduate school in the world and have a great career, but there's more to life than that. And so that mentorship stops at a point that a disciple or can keep you going on.

Chris: 08:10
Yeah, and and so expand on that moment now where um you have been mentored, I I know you have, um uh, but but it it's rare to find that person that will step up and do the discipleship is because they're not ready, they don't know how, or you just didn't know how to ask for someone.

Speaker 2: 08:34
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of times it's all of those. Um, I do think there's a role on the person being disciple to be proactive and to ask for someone to disciple them, you know. I think there is definitely an initiative role there. But I think, yeah, a lot of times some people are just not ready or maybe not even aware that they can be doing that to someone like for someone, you know?

Chris: 08:55
Yeah, uh, and and when that happens, um something something occurs when when you finally find or get that mentor, so or that disciple, or so, you know, the interesting thing, Patrick, I was, you know, a not a Christian growing up, and and finally in college I meet Jesus because a a guy from the navigators ministry uh stopped me in a registration line and and he asked me a couple questions about God, discerned immediately that I was a non-believer, you know, partying, you know, jock and mob wannabe. And he he discerned that, shared the gospel with me in my dorm room a couple of days or weeks later, and and man, not only did the scales fall off my eyes spiritually, but he had began an immediate intentional disciples discipling of me. And I uh I mean I came from you know non-church, you know, uh no, I just didn't have, you know, not only did I not have you know any models of who Christians were, I didn't have a Bible, you know, I didn't have the Christianese, I didn't have anything. But man, I'm telling you, within three days uh of that moment, I'm having a quiet time. I I'm reading my Bible, I'm learning how to pray, and within two weeks, Patrick, he's telling me to go out and share my faith with somebody. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait. What do you mean, share? What does that mean? Like, do I like a Venmo exchange? What does share mean? Hey, they didn't have Venmo back then. Come on, they didn't even have the internet back then. I I'm sure we still use paper and pencil, I'm I guarantee you. But but all that to say, uh, you know, he throws me out into this world where that anybody, but he didn't leave me alone, you know. He taught me how to do it, took me with him, and and man, some of those conversations I had were amazing in those early days because I didn't know anything except for, you know, this, you know, the great hound of heaven had tracked me down finally and shown me, you know, what grace was and who Jesus was. But without his discipling, I I don't know where I would have been. And Patrick, I think there are a lot of new Christians out there, non-believers, who now have so many doubts and concerns about life, and that's what a disciple is trained and specially called to do.

Speaker 2: 11:31
Absolutely.

Chris: 11:32
And would you then tell me a little bit about how how does having a dis you know uh how does discipleship like that help you? Like you have a lot of doubts at times, even if you've been walking with Jesus a long time, man, right? You all of us have anxieties and fears. But how does it how does discipleship help you with things like doubt and life's trials?

Speaker 2: 11:55
Yeah, so I think there's a lot, but one of the biggest ones is that it gives you a model to look at. So a lot of times when you're especially a young Christian, you're trying to figure out how do I live this Christian life? What does it look like to be a Christian, especially in you know, this field or in this situation or in this school? And you know, even a lot of times people have doubts on like assurance of salvation, like how do I know that I'm actually saved? And what being discipled allows you to do is allows you to have a model that you can look at, someone who's further along in that journey than you, then you can see how they've made that path there, right? And what's great about that is a lot of times when you're trying to figure those questions out on your own, you're not gonna have the resources to do so without that person discipling you because you don't know what it looks like twenty years down the road or thirty years down the road. But when you have someone discipling you, you can you can see like, okay, I might not know what right now looks like, but I can see where I'm going. I can see what it's like to live that life faithfully. And I think that's that's something you cannot like give enough credit for on how valuable that is.

Chris: 12:53
Man, I I I remember it's almost like you had to pry my fingers off of this guy's screen door because uh my I I count I can't because he had he had this walk with Jesus that was authentic. Uh you know, he loved his wife, they were in ministry together, and I had never seen anything like that. I did growing up, I didn't know a single person who had a Bible, who prayed, who um the only time I heard the words God or Jesus were I guarantee you, when something bad happened, when people were drunk or people were angry. That's the only time in my house I heard though those two, three words, you know, God and Jesus Christ. And uh so so I saw this, Patrick, the new model, new way like you're describing, and I there was something in my soul that went, this is it. This is who you need to model your life after after, right? And and and there there's something that hits that that young, new or or even old uh person, uh right, kind of where where they're needing the most watering or the most modeling. And it's a high call, isn't it, to be a discipler? Because could you imagine your whole life is now going to be examined? Does that ever stress you out or people that want to go into discipling? Do they ever think I'm not perfect enough? If people look at my model, I'm gonna be they're gonna go the wrong way.

Speaker 2: 14:36
Yeah, I mean, I think I really like two things to that. Firstly, I think we're all called to be disciplers. Um that's the Great Commission, it says go and make disciples, not go and make converts, right? And so I think that's something that we're all called to do, but I also think when it talks about like your life being in the spotlight, so to speak, scripture repeatedly talks about, you know, when God judges, everything that's in the dark comes to light. And I think part of the Christian life is supposed to be that we're not supposed to have those things in the dark. And so our life should be on the inside what it's like like on the outside. And I think as we grow in sanctification, it naturally becomes more like that as well.

Chris: 15:09
Yeah, that's really good. Um expand on that a little bit. Like, so what is the role of the discipler, right? And then the role of the person being discipled.

Speaker 2: 15:21
Yeah, so I think that differs a little on who you ask, but I always like to look at like Paul and Timothy. I think in scripture that's a great example. But like one of the things is is that um Paul was writing to encourage Timothy. Paul was uh intimately involved in Timothy's faith and his personal life as well, and he became like a father, like to him, right? And in obviously in the church, that is like literally essentially what he is. But it's kind of that idea of he's walking with him every step of the way, like he's his son, right? And he's training him up in godliness so that he so that when Paul's gone, when Paul's executed under Nero, Timothy can keep doing what Paul's work was, right? He can keep spreading the gospel, he can keep planting churches. And but it also means that when Paul is gone, Timothy is essentially ready, he's been trained to be the next Paul, right? And so in the early church they had this idea, it was called apostolic succession, and it was essentially that most of these churches were founded by the apostles, and then the bishops were mentored by the apostles, and it continued on. And then that gets a little complicated later on, especially talking to Catholics and Protestants, but the idea was essentially that these guys were mentored by the disciples so that they could be a like a replica of the disciples when they weren't there anymore.

Chris: 16:31
Yeah, well, wouldn't that be awesome to be discipled by well, okay? No, how horrible okay, I I don't know the right word to be discipled by Paul or even Timothy. I mean, good night. You'd be like, but but but Paul, I think, really uh broke the model, you know, in Romans 7 and 8 when he said, Woe is me, I I'm a wretched man. He imagine a model saying to you, Woe is me, I'm a wretched man, but thanks be to God, where there is now no condemnation. I mean, if you talk, you talk about setting up a humble uh interaction with another person versus, hey Patrick, I got a, you know, three verses I want to share with you, two, two I want you to memorize, and four things I want you to write, you know, on the sovereign nature of God's grace, right? And you're like, all right, but that's not really what they're we're looking for, are we?

Speaker 2: 17:36
No, and I I think that's that because that can push you more toward mentorship, right? Where it's learning something, where it's discipleship is about being something. So I think it's definitely it's definitely different for sure. And uh what you talked about in Romans 7 is huge because one of the things that's so important in that relationship is honesty. Um the person being discipled has to be honest with the person trying to disciple them, and the person discipling them has to also be honest with the person they're discipling. Because if you don't have honesty, you can't have any kind of relationship.

Chris: 18:04
Man, Patrick, that's great. No wonder you got your own podcast and and broad, you know, you know, metrics out there of people watching and listening to you, and I know it's growing because here you are. I mean, I don't want to reveal if you don't how old you are. I know you're 40 and we're almost the same age, but no, you're just a young dude, and you've got this is what impressed me, Patrick, about you. Um you were in my class, and and you know, I've got I probably I don't know, were there three, four hundred in there? Do you remember? Yeah, I think like 350 or something, yeah. And and and Patrick, you stood out one, because while you did smile and laugh at my jokes, which were a plenty, I'll be honest, maybe too much, but but you uh I there, you know, you would be amazed at what faculty can see while they're teaching 350 students. Man, we could pick up that dude, you know, that is, you know, sleeping or angry or reflective. You know, the happy ones, okay, great, you know, but you were you had this mixture of both, you know, laughing and and engaged, but very reflective and deep. And um, but but here you are just I don't know if you want to tell us how old, but you're still young and you have these thoughts on discipleship that is very different than the modern church or the young students that I come across have. And that's what stood out to me.

Speaker 2: 19:38
Yeah, I mean, I think the Lord the Lord has put a call on my life, and um and the Lord has blessed me with with a lot of challenges, but also a lot of ways where I've seen him work in places that a lot of people wouldn't have. And I think that that has impacted me to um one of the things I've tattooed on my arms just the parable of the talent. And it's impacted me to do what I can with what I'm given.

Alisa: 20:03
Hey friends, we have got some big news. The Center for Marriage and Relationships is now part of Talbot School of Theology, right here at Viola University.

Chris: 20:13
We're thrilled, Lisa, with uh because Talbot's been equipping leaders uh, you know, in biblical truth for decades. And uh now together we get to expand our resources for marriages and relationships.

Alisa: 20:24
Yeah, it's exciting because research shows that couples with ongoing support and biblical guidance are far more likely to thrive. And that's exactly what makes this partnership possible.

Chris: 20:36
Yeah, so if you're a student, pastor, just hungry to grow, we want you to know this is only the beginning of what God is doing through Telbud and the CMR.

Alisa: 20:44
Yeah, you can learn more. Just check out the show notes for details.

Chris: 20:51
Yeah, uh, let's go back real quickly to the idea of honesty. Um expand on that just a little bit because what you're saying in Romans 7 and and uh ultimately what we find in well throughout Paul's writings is is a deep honesty, but it wasn't like hey, you know, an honesty that the world it wasn't like you know he he always you know tipped the right amount or or he you know always gave if someone gave him too much change, you know. That's honesty, right? It wasn't like he when he interacted with the others, he was honest. There was you there's the more to that word. What does that mean when a when someone is setting out to both be discipled and or to disciple someone? What what does that word mean to you, honesty?

Speaker 2: 21:40
Yeah, so I think I think we can go pretty deep with that, but I think there's a a desire that everyone has to um be fully seen and fully loved, right? And I think the the problem with that is to be fully loved in the world, you have to kind of tweak and modify how much you can be fully seen. Because if it's too much, then you know things go out of whack. And and there's uh all sorts of issues with that too. Um but the idea of honesty is you have to be willing to be yourself to reveal like I guess to reveal things about yourself to be honest uh before the person discipling you because they can't help you if they don't know, right? Like if you're struggling with a certain thing, they can't they can't help you speak into that if you're not gonna be able to tell them about it, right? But the problem is it's so difficult to do that because the the fear is always that that person is not going to be there if you tell them that thing, right? It's it's a fear of okay, well if I am honest, then they're not going to still be there, they're not gonna see me the same way, they're not gonna help me with this, right? And so what it tends to do a lot of times is it tends to make it so you have people that are being discipled that are being partially honest with the person discipling them, and there's a lack of healing a lot of times in there in that space, because the person that's trying to disciple them can't actually access what they need to be discipled in, right? And so I think honesty is willing is especially on the part of the person being discipled, is being willing to take that first step in that it's honestly a step of faith. It's a step of faith that the person that is discipling you is a believer in the Lord and that they are going to love you as a brother in Christ, regardless of what it is that you need to be honest about.

Chris: 23:11
Man, that's that's really good. Yeah, drop the mic right there while it's hanging, so let's maybe swing it out of there. Um yeah, let's camp here for a second. Um give me give me a time where you felt that tension. Uh you know, someone someone is, you know, appropriately, you know, seeking your heart, seeking who you are, but but but you feel the tension of really not feeling comfortable revealing everything yet. What what's that tension like?

Speaker 2: 23:44
Yes. Yeah, I think I have a few. Um I think one of them was this guy that has mentored me, and I tell him a lot of things, but like for whatever reason, I was never like I have some sketchy things in my past. I was never able to tell him that whole thing, right? Um, and you know, I I don't know why that was, right? But I was just never able to get there. And it was kind of one of those things where it, you know, it was it was a good example of of that situation, I would say.

Chris: 24:13
Yeah, so why don't you tell the listeners all the sketchy things that you've done in your life? I mean, come on, we gotta make this real, bro. This is this is come to Jesus moment. Let's just get all no. Uh I I I so agree with you that it's it's there are more so this person would ask me, and I and I I you know, being a new Christian, I I thought, wow, this guy is taking a really interesting, good, you know, uh uh uh, you know, I guess, uh interaction with me and taking a turn that was pretty deep. So I so I just felt it was normal, but after a while, Patrick, as I started to try and walk with Jesus more, you know, I I I remember him asking, How are your quiet times, for example? How how's your time in the word? Well, I I never could live up to the model of what he provided. This man would get up at 6 a.m., you know, have his coffee and be in the word for an hour. And he'd be reading and praying, and then his wife would join him, and then you know, and he did that every day, and he kept notes about his uh, you know, journal of thoughts and and the prayers. Patrick, I tried and tried and tried to get up early and have a quiet time to start my day, and I mostly failed. I so for me, I began to, you know, that shame and guilt can start coming in, and and that tension now arose. Hey, how's your quiet time? And I'd say, Oh, oh yeah, pretty good. Well, in reality, I had moved completely all of my quiet times to the evening when I was finally relaxing, it was before bed, I felt, you know, closer to God there because I'm a night owl, and I remember having to finally have that conversation with him, say, Rob, I'm just gonna be honest with you, I am failing miserably at the 6 a.m. quiet time. And and I felt, I really did feel like because I didn't know any different. I thought that's what all Christians are supposed to do. You know, you start your day, Jesus did it even before sunrise, and and it was just and he mocked, and he told, you know, there were all these examples that he would share, you know, with me and my buddies about you know doing that early. Patrick, I I remember the shame and guilt, and that's not what this is about, is it?

Speaker 2: 26:48
No, and I think um, because like in things like that, it's it's part of is like learning how do you connect with God the most, right? Or like in what spaces, and that's different for people with different personalities, I think. But I think a lot of times it's that it's that vulnerability of being known. And that can there can be some shame involved in that too. Um, but yeah, I mean it's it's it's definitely interesting because there is some commonalities, but also some differences, I think.

Chris: 27:12
Yeah, and if you have a rough, you know, sketchy background like you and I do, uh, one thing we share is is sketch. Um right. I I don't know the right term that you that all y'all use. No, I love sketch, sketch is great. Thank you. Yeah, I've been reading, you know, lingo for 50-year-olds to connect with the so no, the sketch in our lives uh is you know, I it starts to come off, right? I mean, that the rocks around my heart, around my soul were encrusted. They're hard. And that refiner's fire comes in and starts to reveal and and knock away or or want to knock away, and and I remember starting to resist. Like, wait, I can no longer date these kind of girls. That one, I'm gonna be honest, was hard for me. Like, wait, wait, wait, wait. You want to tell me that she has to be a Christian? I I don't get that because my that that wasn't my top four list of the girl I wanted to to date. Uh, but but it became as it became that I realized, oh, I have some other things, and so I I remember uh Patrick kind of staying with the girl that I had been with uh before I became a Christian and processing heavily. Do I break this up? Do I break this off? Because it's not it now, it my new definition of healthy dating, it didn't fit that. I don't know if you experience things like you're talking about.

Speaker 2: 28:50
Yeah, and I think I I definitely have experiences like that as well. And I think what's been so interesting to see is that as you uh are able to be more vulnerable or more willing to follow Christ in those ways, you see how uh God changes that into testimony, right? And especially the case with vulnerability, as you as kind of God removes some of those rocks from your heart, it's it's becomes something you can ensure as a testimony that helps other people in the same situation.

Chris: 29:15
Boy, isn't that? I mean, the the more vulnerable we can be, right? The more authentic, honest, the word we're coming back to now, the the more I can and by that I you know, just saying, look, I don't have as the as the discipler to say this these sentences, look, I don't have this all figured out. I I still struggle daily with keeping you know my thoughts pure. I still struggle daily, hourly with the desire of wanting to be served instead of to serve. Uh, and that that's the vulnerability and honesty that really helped me was was you know, I had maybe idolize this man's walk and his marriage and everything. And I had you know a great uh kind of eye-opening moment when when he would share vulnerabilities and share honestly, then I realized oh, this is this Christian walk doesn't solve everything. It doesn't, you know, all of a sudden you become a Christian, Patrick, and you think, oh, that's it, life's over. But boy, the for me, the great pursuer of grace, the hound of heaven, man, it was just starting. I thought it was the bottom of the ninth, and you know, I've been living in that world for nine good innings, 19 at that point. Uh, and uh, you know, and all of a sudden I'm like, oh, I just I just won the game, baby. I know Jesus now for the first time, and life is going to be perfect. And I that's what I thought. And when it started to show that it wasn't, is when I realized, wait a minute, the top of the first has just started, the pitcher's in his windup, and I haven't even seen the first pitch yet. So when you do this discipling with people, Patrick, tell me what it means for you. Like it seems would you agree that the modern church has lost this kind of idea of discipleship with honesty and authenticity, and it's game on right now.

Speaker 2: 31:43
Oh, I absolutely agree with that. And one of the things I was blessed with this last year was at Ohio State to be around a lot of new Christians and like young converts. And what was so cool to see with that is the passion they have for the Lord. But on the other hand, this is where you're talking about the value of having the discipler who can be honest with them is sometimes there's a lot of optimism, but sometimes there's a little bit of realism needed as well. Of like, okay, this walk with Christ is maybe not gonna be sunshine rainbows all the time. And there are some some issues that still happen, you know. But what's amazing though is those young Christians were able to give me a kind of optimism and um like a hope that I didn't have in my faith being longer, and I was able to give them a kind of grounded realism that they didn't have. So you have something where we each kind of benefited in different ways, uh, that helped us, I think us both grew, you know.

Chris: 32:33
Boy, Patrick, when I was your age, uh uh but you know, finishing up my undergrad and and deciding to go to grad school, you know, I was thoroughly indoctrinated in a good way into the new Christian life and the disciple, disciple making, you know, uh outline and format. Uh I mean, coming from probably one of the premier Christian organizations that does that, the navigators. I mean, that's their mission is disciple making. And so I I was I was thoroughly, you know, soaked in in that world. And and and so at that age, I I started, I, you know, I had guys underneath, you know, mentors. We lived in the same house. Uh, I was a grad student, they were undergrads, and they got to see the raw, the unfiltered, and um and and I and I remember one situation, uh, Patrick, and I don't know if you've ever found this, but so there were two guys in particular. One was named Jim, and one was his name, the other was named Kurt. Uh, just uh guys that I've loved and still love today. And but uh but I was considered well, I was a little bit older, you know, uh been around in the faith maybe about as long as they have, and they were easy. These guys loved Jesus and walked with him. Okay, so the three of us took a trip out from Colorado to California one time, San Diego, to visit Kurt's brother in the Navy. We got to, you know, he'd go on his, you know, Navy, you know, destroyer cruiser, look around. He was like a I don't know what what the title is in the Navy for his you know captain, or I don't know what he was, but he was high up there. Well, all that to say, we ran into one of their friends from call from our same university. It was break time, and she was out there and said, Hey, look me up when you come. So anyway, Patrick, we're all four together now, and this girl was was beautiful, and she hung out with us for the next day and a half, two days, and two of them, you know, Kurt and her were good friends. Uh, but they there came a moment where I realized, uh, my you know, the way I interact with her, I had to, I had to question, you know, my motives, my heart, especially in front of them, you know. Um, you know, I I could feel the attraction, we all could. I mean, she was, you know, really fun and pretty. But she when Kurt said, yeah, she re- I've been really trying to get her to understand who re who Jesus really is. I mean, she says she's a Christian, but she doesn't have anything. Well, at that moment, if I would have said, Oh, I would like to date her, yeah, I don't think that's the right model. Uh, that's the right not the right role, uh, because God calls us to something higher, right? And yeah, go ahead. No, no, I was just when he does that, that's what we're talking about is knowing. So, Patrick, you found yourself here. He you're with these younger guys, you've uh your faith has you know gone through so many, you know, um moderations, changes, transformations over time to bring you to where you're at today, but you still have areas that you're sharing with these guys, right, that are like a little troubling still that you're working through.

Speaker 2: 36:11
Yeah, no, I I think I had a lot of those. There was there was a lot of moments with that, and it was it was difficult to balance that of how do I try to disciple some of these guys but also be vulnerable, you know.

Chris: 36:23
So so give us in sort of a a wrap-up, if you did, uh or if you could, um what's the what's the approach, the heart, the perspective? If you if you if if there's a student out there that's listening and they're like, I want to be discipled, what would you tell them that their heart, their they need to kind of put on and start doing or thinking about?

Speaker 2: 36:55
Well, I think there's a couple of things. I think the most important is they've got to be willing to be proactive and vulnerable. So they've got to A, like if they see someone that they're like, I want this person to disciple me, they have to be willing to go and ask. You know, um because you can't always just expect people to, you know, psychically pick it up or something like that. Um and so and they have to and to ask also requires being a little bit vulnerable because they have to be willing to you know hear a okay, maybe I can't this time, or you know, something like that, right? But um it's it's that pursuit and vulnerability, but I think it's also them having a seriousness with their own faith, is that student has to be to the point where they're willing to be challenged in ways they might not like a lot of times. Um, because a disciple is gonna push you. He's gonna push you to do things that you maybe don't want to do or to take steps of faith that you won't want to take. So they have to have that that ground of faith as well, they're willing to be challenged um in pursuit of following the Lord.

Chris: 37:47
Wow, that's great. So I heard you say they need to they need to act, that is, they need to overcome the fear of of just asking, right? And and then when they do, they need to be willing to uh be authentic in how they approach that relationship. Absolutely. And and at that point, what when when a a person, let's say a listener right now, goes, All right, I'm gonna I'm gonna go, I'm gonna make the phone call, I'm gonna go, you know, ask the question. I I still remember Patrick, uh, not a lot of students, maybe three, four hundred, they all think to themselves, uh, the dude's busy, you know, and and uh I'll just send him an email. But man, I I think you showed up in my office probably more than any kid I had before. And I think that was you showing that, hey, I I'm gonna just step out. If this guy rejects me and and says he's busy, fine. Um, but man, you showed a lot of initiative.

Speaker 2: 38:58
Oh yeah, I definitely remember that.

Chris: 39:00
I know, and and I I remember telling my assistant, like, wait, Patrick again? No, not really. I never once said that. I I always enjoyed our time, and and you know, then we also had a fun connection, didn't we? Like uh my well, you tell us what that connection is. I know my TA from years past was somebody that was related to you.

Speaker 2: 39:24
Yeah, so uh Julie Ripka, now Julie Salattery, was your TA, and now she's a psychologist as well. That you teach on her books.

Chris: 39:33
So I use your aunt's book, it's your aunt, right? Yes, my aunt. And one day we're sitting there, and and you know, the name, you know, you know, Patrick Flanagan, you know, just a name to me. And and uh I knew a kid in college very well named uh well, I don't think it was Patrick, I can't remember, it was Finnegan, but anyway, I would always think you were your name was Finnegan. Uh but all of a sudden, you know, we're we're talking, and I said, Oh yeah, this is a good book. And you looked at me, that's a good book at some point that I use, and you looked at me and goes, Oh yeah, I know the author. I go, You know Julie's laddery, and you go, uh yeah, that's my hand. I remember that. That was awesome. Yeah, but you showed up, yeah. But you showed up, uh Patrick, you asked, and then you were authentic and sharing about your life, your struggles, a girl you were dating, your your thoughts about transferring. And I just, you know, it takes a lot of courage. At that point, what what what then does it take in the heart and the soul of the person who wants to be a disciple, or what what would you say they need to start doing or thinking or getting ready for?

Speaker 2: 40:43
Yeah, so this is something that I take really personally because a passage that I think about all the time is Matthew 25, which is the sheep and the goats. And I think for the discipler, there's there's an element, or at least my personal experience, that I've been like, I'm always willing to be inconvenienced for someone that needs it. Like I said, Christian, right? Because I don't want to be the kind of guy that didn't feed Christ when he was hungry or didn't clothe him when he was naked or didn't visit him when he was in prison. And so I think it starts with that mentality of realizing that what we do for our brothers and sisters in Christ, we do for Christ. And so have that mentality of okay, I'm willing to be inconvenienced because I'm not being inconvenienced for you know this person, I'm being inconvenienced on behalf of the Lord that I serve. So that's my like that's my personal stance that I live by. I don't know, I can't generalize it for everyone, but for me, that's been something that I've I've really adopted a lot, that I never want to be too busy that I can't be inconvenienced for Christ.

Chris: 41:35
Wow, Patrick, what a great way and a great passage to go to, right? Jesus' words, I was hungry and you didn't feed me. I mean, yeah, he he was talking some I I guess he was using the idea of food, but it wasn't it wasn't, you know, bread he was talking about, was it?

Speaker 2: 41:55
No. I mean, you can make an interesting connection with when he tells Peter later, you know, feed my sheep, right? Um, and even earlier he talks about, you know, whichever of you give a glass of cold water to any of these people I'm sending out, like you will never lose a reward. And there's an interesting you I mean, obviously you got some great theologians at Biola, so I'd be interested to hear what they say. But some people actually take that passage to be about ministry specifically, and like traveling ministers and traveling preachers, and others take it to be about kind of everyone who's poor or everyone who needs help. But I think really that at the core of the passage is both. I mean, it's about people that bear Christ's name that need help from brothers and sisters in Christ.

Chris: 42:33
Yeah. Man, I was poor and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me water. What a great model for uh, you know, the guy that wants to go in and disciple. Now, he he he doesn't have to be, you know, rich, right? In in in material things, he doesn't have to have it all together spiritually, he just has to have some water, and that is what the water of life that's been given to him many times over. And uh, wow, Patrick, give me your final thoughts on this whole idea of the heart of biblical discipleship.

Speaker 2: 43:14
Yeah, I think I think my final thought is I would just challenge anyone who's listening to find someone to disciple you and then find someone to disciple. Um, you know, they talk a lot about how Paul had Timothy, but he also had Barnabas, who was discipling him at the time, right? And I think in every Christian you want to have those both of those relationships. You know, you want to have a mentor and a mentee. And so I would I think my final thought would be to challenge anyone to be proactive and pursuing that because I think it'll it'll pay dividends on your spiritual growth if you if you find that.

Chris: 43:44
Patrick, you're an inspiration. Uh I I I wished I had well, I had your heart as a young man about your age, but I just don't think I thought as deeply. I j I think I was more interested still in sports and girls and not, you know, involuntarily having to go to the police station. But I I think, you know, to to see someone um where you're at, where God has placed you, I I just see uh wonderful, amazing things for you. I I think you uh think you're gonna make a big impact in in this world, in those that are in your circle, in that ever-expanding circle. And I really just appreciate hearing your thoughts on something like this. So, Patrick, thank you for joining us on this Art of Relationships podcast, buddy.

Speaker 2: 44:37
And thank you for having me on. It's always a blessing to talk to you for sure.

Chris: 44:40
It's always a blessing to talk to you as well. So if y'all want to see uh this and more, uh go to our cmr.biola.edu for all kinds of resources. And uh hey, thanks for watching this Art of Relationship podcast.

Mandy: 44:56
We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on the art of relationships.