Dealing with Grief and Loss During the Holidays with Guest Kevin Van Lant

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In this episode, Chris and Alisa Grace explore the topic of navigating grief and loss during the holidays. They are joined by Dr. Kevin Van Lant, a licensed clinical psychologist and expert in pastoral care and counseling, who provides invaluable insights into the challenges of processing grief during a season traditionally associated with joy and togetherness. They discuss the importance of recognizing and sitting with the pain, offering practical ways to support both yourself and others during difficult times, and how faith plays a transformative role in the grieving process.

Whether you’re dealing with the loss of a loved one or supporting someone in their grief, this episode offers compassionate advice to help you find hope and meaning, even in the midst of sorrow.

Resources Mentioned:

• Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy by Mark Vroegop – A guide to practicing lament as a path toward healing and hope. 
• Necessary Losses by Judith Viorst – An exploration of how loss is an inevitable and essential part of personal growth. 
• Blue Trust - Biblically centered financial planning and investment management services. Contact Colby Gilmore (colby.gilmore@ronblue.com) for personalized financial advice for all income levels.

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: youtube.com/@biola-cmr

Join the Conversation:

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

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Chris [00:00:00] Hey, friends, as the year comes to a close, we want to invite you to join us in fueling the future of healthy Christ centered relationships.

 

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Alisa [00:00:42] Yeah. In $20 a month, you're helping couples reconnect with free mentoring and seminars. And then for $40 a month that supports are counseling services and conferences that help to reconcile and heal relationships.

 

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Alisa [00:01:05] So your generosity, as you know, is tax deductible, and it equips us to continue providing timeless biblical wisdom and innovative tools to a world that so desperately needs Christ centered relationships.

 

Chris [00:01:19] So join us in bringing Christ's healing love to more relationships this holiday season. You can visit us at cmr.biola.edu today to make your monthly gift.

 

Alisa [00:01:29] Yeah. Together we can strengthen marriages, restore hope, and build a thriving future.

 

Chris [00:01:36] Hey, thanks for partnering with us and for being part of this mission to transform lives.

 

Mandy [00:01:42] Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

 

Chris [00:01:53] So welcome to Another hour of relationships. Lisa It is cool. We're in our little studio here on the campus of Biola University. And you know what's funny about that is how often we get to talk about relationships with not just, you know, guests and others, but with students. And and it's everything relates relationships, which is so fun to be able to just talk about so many different topics.

 

Alisa [00:02:19] And it is and we have a great one planned for today and we really want to invite you to come and join us. You know, kick up your feet, unhook your bra if you're a girl around.

 

Chris [00:02:31] Your world and get.

 

Alisa [00:02:33] Comfortable because we actually have a really good episode for you.

 

Chris [00:02:37] Okay. That just launched us into a direction. But also, let's do a quick shout out to the person behind the scenes who makes all this happen. Tatum is has just been so awesome to join our team and she sets up everything related to the studio, doesn't she?

 

Alisa [00:02:57] That's right. Tatum Universe. She's a newlywed, a new Biola grad, and she's just been on our team for a couple of months. So welcome, Tatum. We're glad.

 

Chris [00:03:05] You're here. Glad you're here. Thanks for all that you do. Lisa. Like you said, we've got a topic that is probably important for the holidays. One of the reasons is, is we're going to talk about grief and we're going to talk about the impact of grief and loss and pain during what is usually considered this joyful period of time. Right. And for a lot of people, it is it's this awesome celebration, the birth of Christ or Thanksgiving, you know, that that sense of a new year. And and we celebrated it and it's fun and relationships oftentimes can be stressed out during those times. Right You you can stress me out with your spending and I can stress you out with my criticism of your spending. And I you know, it's an issue that we face all the time, but it's also usually accompanied by, you know, very pleasant and joyful memories of being with family.

 

Alisa [00:04:05] Right? That's our normal holiday. That's normal year to year, but it's not always normal.

 

Chris [00:04:10] Yeah, Let's talk about that. What are some issues that make it not normal? And that's I think grief is one of those.

 

Alisa [00:04:16] That's right. And we've actually experienced this this topic, grief and loss of a family member just in the last couple of months. Tatum is she has to. And so this has been a topic that we've really wanted to talk about. And so we have invited a very special guest to be with us today. Our guest today is Dr. Kevin Van Lente. Kevin is a licensed clinical psychologist and he received his PhD from Rosemead School of Psychology right here at Loyola, who well.

 

Chris [00:04:50] Dr. Lam, before we even met, before he even let you talk, who is on your committee, I wonder when you were doing your dissertation, did you have any good committee members? I had.

 

Kevin [00:04:59] Three, three committee members. One really hard time remembering.

 

Chris [00:05:03] Yes. Committee members. No, I remember him. He he surprised me how brilliant he was. And it wasn't me. It was the guy sitting next to me who was actually very brilliant. But I came in second on your committee. As far as a.

 

Kevin [00:05:17] Close second.

 

Chris [00:05:18] I don't remember. The third one was.

 

Alisa [00:05:19] Well, maybe in spite of that, you've really made something of. He's actually an associate professor here at Baylor University, and he teaches a course in pastoral care and counseling, teaches marriage counseling psychopathology. And in addition to that, he's also the senior director of clinical services at the Center for Individual and Family Therapy. And that is a large nonprofit Christian counseling center here in Orange County. And so we have some great referrals that we can make to sift. If you are in the Southern California area and you are looking for really good, solid, well-vetted, godly Christian therapists. You contact our office and we will put you in touch with Sift and the people at Sift s where our own family members have gone. Chris and I are on the board at Sift and we love those people. We love the ministry going on.

 

Chris [00:06:16] I think we're two of the best board members there was.

 

Alisa [00:06:20] Just to add to.

 

Chris [00:06:22] That. And Kevin, going back to your dissertation, I you know, we laughed earlier talking about it. It was, I don't know, at least two, three years ago where you defended. But one of the I I'll just tell you, we haven't talked about this but your topic was malingering. Your topic had a lot to do with people that maybe are faking an illness or and can you test for malingering? And I think. Is that.

 

Alisa [00:06:48] Right?

 

Kevin [00:06:49] No, not.

 

Chris [00:06:50] Always slightly different, but it's on the side of, you know, where people were trying to get something, getting.

 

Kevin [00:06:57] The systems in the system.

 

Alisa [00:07:00] Probably a lot of that going in and on and Covid.

 

Chris [00:07:03] I think so, too. So anyway, Dr. Van Lan, thanks for joining us. My pleasure. Yeah, it's so good to have you here. Your background and experience for the holidays that, you know, we all experience these times in which the expectation is, you know, they'll be family and you'll be together, it'll be warm and safe and there'll be a lot of, you know, fun partying and, you know, just it just enjoying and celebrating these things. But for us, many people there comes with it some difficulties because of a recent loss. You know, Alisa has mentioned, you know, not just, you know, our, you know, background producer here, Tatum, myself, we lost someone very close to us. For me, it was a brother, right, that was killed recently in an attempted carjacking. And thinking about what that has done for our mom, who, you know, thinking about what that's done for his son, young son and his ex-wife, the pain that it brings becomes a little bit more acute during holidays. Why is that? Why why do sometimes holidays bring that out like G where we you know, we can it doesn't like 4th of July doesn't seem to do that.

 

Kevin [00:08:28] You mentioned you mentioned the word expectation earlier. And I think a lot of this is connected expectation. We have an expectation that somehow the warm and fuzzy nature of the Christmas holiday and Thanksgiving is supposed to always be a experience that we have when in reality loss is is is sort of an ongoing experience that the holidays don't necessarily protect us from. So a loss experience can happen any time during the year. And yet we have this sense that somehow during the Christmas holiday in particular, I think that we've been sort of just whether it's through the TV shows, we've watched the expectations we had when we were children, the the joyful experiences we have around family. We want to protect that. We want that to always be the case. And then unfortunately, reality tends to invade it at times. And it has a more disruptive effect, especially when we see so many people around us having the kind of experience that we want. And so it's really highlighted, I think, during this time of year.

 

Chris [00:09:37] Yeah, that word expectations, at least so far, you know, we've been talking about, this will be fun to have, you know, this day. And we're planning who can be here on this day in which kids can come or, you know, which cousins or aunts and uncles or whatever it is. But the expectation, Kevin has always been, yeah, you're going to celebrate this together. It's it's as if this is one time to reunify some things, right?

 

Alisa [00:10:06] Yeah. And don't you think there's also a sense of nostalgia around the holidays? And we talk a lot about the the importance of rituals and those traditions that you build into your marriage, into your parenting, into your family, because it bonds you. It builds that sense of weakness and belonging. Right? And so I think part of that the reason grief is so poignant during the holidays is because that nostalgia and all of a sudden there's that sharp reminder that that person's not there to to partake in our rituals, that they've always been there before. They're not there. And it just you feel it more acute acutely at that time, I think.

 

Chris [00:10:53] Yeah. Yeah, Go ahead. Yeah.

 

Kevin [00:10:55] Well, I'm just thinking about it. Is that sort of family context. And so that's why ticket prices are so expensive to fly during Thanksgiving and Christmas because families gather. And so we notice the loss, I think, more acutely as well, because that person not being there, we feel it more deeply and we so want that not to be the case. But it it oftentimes just is part of our reality.

 

Chris [00:11:20] So let's talk about some ways in a little bit on on how to process and deal with this, Kevin, that you see as most healthy. But real quickly, you've you've experienced grief and loss. Like like anybody else have. And your story, I think you've shared, you know, different times and places publicly and and you have many years, you know, I know since an event that really shaped you and changed you in some ways I don't know what you do. You want to share a little bit about that or should we just briefly mention it?

 

Kevin [00:11:54] Yeah. Well, I think just in a brief nutshell, many years ago when I was a young man, I lost my. Wife who was eight months pregnant at the time. And that certainly shaped the trajectory of my life. It's certainly shaped how I think about loss, how I even studied loss.

 

Chris [00:12:12] How old were you when you.

 

Kevin [00:12:14] 25 years old.

 

Chris [00:12:15] And she and.

 

Kevin [00:12:16] She's about the same age.

 

Chris [00:12:17] Same age, 25, eight months pregnant. And I know what happened is in a nutshell, she. Something went wrong with the pregnancy and didn't wake up. Yeah. Is that right?

 

Kevin [00:12:30] Yeah, that's exactly right.

 

Chris [00:12:32] Kevin, how did it shape you? What? What what things have you taken away from it? And I know it's. I know you've shared that, you know that pain and over the many years and talked about it, but it kind of maybe set you off on a different trajectory as a clinician as well as a therapist.

 

Kevin [00:12:52] Yeah, it really did change everything. I mean, my. I was not planning on becoming a psychologist, I can guarantee you that. And it and it did through, I think, the process of seeking my own therapy related to that loss and then really being able to understand how important it is to be able to process that kind of experience in a safe environment and make sense of that experience did open me up to the possibility of becoming a therapist at some point in time, and that really did. Again, it changed the whole trajectory of life. And I think that is sort of what pain does to us. And so when we're talking about loss, we're really talking about pain. And there's an old saying, you know, pain is the best teacher. And in some ways, if we let pain do its work in us, it does change. I think oftentimes some really fundamental aspects of how we approach life. Carl Jung has that famous kind of quote about most types of psychological problems are the result of illegitimate suffering. And by virtue of that, what he's really saying is that legitimate suffering moves us through a process. Illegitimate suffering really keeps us stuck.

 

Chris [00:14:10] What's give us give an example of a difference.

 

Kevin [00:14:12] Like real quick. Sure. It could be substance use. It could be kind of denial. It could be a Pollyannish kind of approach and not really internalizing the depth of what happened. I think about scripture we see in scripture over and again, whether it's the Psalms, whether it's whether it's David, whether it's Jesus. There is no sense in which they're avoiding confronting the pain of their experiences in life. In fact, we have a lot of really amazing examples of wrestling deeply with pain of of pain that's so intense that we don't even have words for it. So when Jesus talks about groaning or when Paul talks about groaning, that we groan in the Spirit, intervenes for us because we don't even know what to say. We don't even know how to pray in those moments because it just hurts so badly. And so we have lots of examples, I think, in scripture of which we let we let the difficult seasons of life. We let them shape us. And if they shape us, as Paul would describe in Romans five, what really we're doing is enduring the struggle so that it can develop us in a in a, I think, a different way, a unique way and in an improved way, in spite of the fact that I don't like pain either. I don't want to be hurting and I don't want people I love to be hurting. And yet, in some interesting way, if we let that pain do its work on us, we actually come out the other side. I think an improved version of ourselves.

 

Chris [00:15:52] Why is it that. Thank you. I think that there's a lot of profound things to think about there. Why is it that some can and do come out that side and others do not, that they come out worse, bitter, closed, defensive, critical because they is it because they just can't make sense of the death or they they haven't had the space to process. There are a lot of people who didn't have maybe, you know, they experience this lost Kevin and they don't have anybody to talk with or they turn inward or they're just angry. Like I could see that different family members reacted very angrily, and we all do initially right to a loss that's sudden and painful and result of a horrible crime. But but some family members seem to take it almost the wrong direction in like not only were they angry, they continued to be bitter and angry and mad at the world, questioning like, why? Why this isn't fair and this shouldn't have happened while others have gone through maybe a little bit more of a process approach. I don't know what you would call it, but the ability to go, there's something in here for me to to learn. Yeah. And pain can be this great teacher. Well, it it may be one of the best teachers I know. My dad sure thought of that when he pulled out the paddle and said, Boy, get over here. And he said. And he used my full name. Christopher Ray Grace, get over here. I'm like, this is going to be bad.

 

Alisa [00:17:42] So I say, This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you. And it's like, not Yeah, I don't really think so, lady.

 

Chris [00:17:49] The pain of the thought was even worse. But we're talking about different reactions.

 

Kevin [00:17:56] Yeah, I think that's a tough one to sort of encapsulate briefly, but I think there are just a few thoughts I have about it. One is I remember after the loss of my wife, the pastor that I met with, he had told me, he said this pain, this loss is either going to make you bitter or it's going to make you better. And I thought, well, at the time that seemed very simplistic. But there was there was a bit of truth in that. And and how do we sort of why do some people move in one direction and what is some people move in another direction? And there's a I don't want to oversimplify this because I think there's just so much there's there's so many complexities to it. But I think a lot of it is how do we go into the loss? And when we go into the loss already may be in a very vulnerable state, a traumatized sort of state. We go into it with a lot of unresolved earlier losses. Or we go into it with a fair amount of conflicted kind of feelings about God or about the nature of who God is. I think it does leave us a little more vulnerable to kind of experience this in a in a less than sort of productive way.

 

Chris [00:19:08] But so like things like trust, if someone goes in like, I'm not sure I really trust God, I'm not sure he's really a safe person being, you know, in general, you know, And then they experience something that shakes their trust, shakes, you know, the fact that they don't he, he's not all good or powerful or in control. And you have questions going into that.

 

Kevin [00:19:29] Or maybe you had a sort of, what I call it, sort of a, a distorted view of God that somehow God was going to protect me from all pain or all loss or suffering. And I don't see anywhere in Scripture that would suggest that that's the case. So going into kind of I think for me, one of the things I kind of think about in my own life is that that the depth of that loss experience, it did have an impact on my experience of God, and it did shape and shift and deepen. But at first it did make me angry at God. At first it did make me question Is there a God? At first it did make me question some aspects of that reality, and it really did take years to come to terms with where is God in the midst of that suffering? How was God responding to me personally? Did I have the option to walk away from God or not? And these were real questions that went through my mind for a number of years and the graciousness of people around me that could kind of walk through that with me and didn't try to overly sort of shove me in one direction or another, but were durable enough that could sort of hold those questions with me I think was really helpful. But I do think there's also wrapped up in your question another thing, which is I'm reminded of what Paul writes about in Roman say, where he describes the the effect of the fall and when he said all of creation groans as if in childbirth that the fall broke everything. It broke our bodies, it broke relationships, it broke the earth, it.

 

Chris [00:21:15] Brought death.

 

Kevin [00:21:16] Bread, death, everything that we can think of, sin broke. And sometimes I think what we're really talking about now is how do I come to terms with that? How do we sort of accept the fact that there are certain aspects of life I really have no control over? And that's terrifying. It's terrifying to feel like I don't have control over certain parts of life, especially these people I love and these these people that I would give anything for. And then to lose someone that's that dear to you and to feel that sense of vulnerability in that sense of a lack of control. And somehow sometimes I think in the midst of some of that unresolved anger, I mean, all of us are probably going to feel angry about it at times. But that unresolved anger, I do think it's also kind of like a yelling at the wind, like, why can't I control? Why can't I make life less painful? And it's hard to accept.

 

Chris [00:22:09] That's a great analogy, only.

 

Alisa [00:22:10] Because in circumstances like that that really reveal to us we don't have control. And you know what? We never did. We live under the illusion that we have control. You know, a couple of five years ago, when Chris was diagnosed with stage three colorectal cancer, even even though he didn't die, you know, we didn't know at the beginning if he was going to or not. And even, you know, at that stage that he had we knew that he had a 5050 chance of making it to the five year mark and surviving five years.

 

Chris [00:22:48] And I've done it so far. I only got one.

 

Alisa [00:22:52] But there was such a sense of grieving, of what does this mean for the future? What is this mean? This is not what we thought our golden years were going to look like. Because, I mean, the reality is that he's not the same since he went through treatment. His body is not the same. But in some ways, our outlook and our relationship with God is not the same, but for the good. But one of those feelings I remember, like you said, coming to terms with was realizing that we don't have control over whether or not that cancer comes back. I mean, we could do what we can and take the steps that we need to, but really, we don't have control. And that and the realization was, you know what? The reality is we never did. It's just now we've come face to face with it. So now what do we do? And it really forced a time of kind of our come to Jesus moment. Do we believe what we say? We believe? Can we really trust God? Is he really for us? And even if it doesn't turn out the way we're hoping and praying, can I still thrive? Can we still not just survive, but thrive and get to a place that we're able to say it is well with my soul and really, really mean it?

 

Chris [00:24:27] At least I think that has. That was your journey that you just described what you've done over the last four years in this process. That first couple of months we weren't there, you know, you or you. But as we went on, you began this deep exploration change.

 

Alisa [00:24:46] Took a while.

 

Chris [00:24:47] It changed the way you saw God and looked at God. Right. And you're needing to say it. And I think what you said at the very end is even if even if you're still my God and you're still my king, and I know you turned to scripture and some other great passages for that, and I know one that you relied on, you know, but go ahead and maybe tell us that.

 

Alisa [00:25:10] Yeah, the one verse that was really key for me as we were processing our we called it our year of Job. And our listeners, if they've listened before, they they know that journey. But we were just getting taken hits from every side. Kevin I mean, he was diagnosed with cancer. Our youngest, 17 year old daughter was diagnosed with a debilitating herniated disc. That medicine was not helping. Well, she ended up a year later having back surgery.

 

Chris [00:25:39] And you were diagnosed.

 

Alisa [00:25:41] Or had melanoma for this independent emergency appendicitis. I mean, it was just one thing after another.

 

Chris [00:25:48] The Dodgers lost the World Series that year and the Broncos didn't even make the playoffs. It was like all these calamities, like what has he unleashed on?

 

Alisa [00:25:58] That was a calamity.

 

Chris [00:26:00] So.

 

Alisa [00:26:01] Yeah, but and a friend of mine had given me a plaque that said even still I will flourish. And it really reminded me of the verse in Habakkuk. I believe it's 317 319. And her back, it says this. This is even though the fig trees have no blossoms and there are no grapes on the vines, even though the olive crop fails and the fields lie empty and barren, even though the flocks die in the fields and the cattle barns are empty. Yet I will rejoice in the Lord. I will be joyful in the God of my salvation. For the Lord, the Sovereign Lord is my strength. He makes me a sure footed as a deer and able to tread on the heights.

 

Chris [00:26:59] Well, you know, when it comes to money and marriage, we all want clarity and confidence. Right. And especially unity with spouses. Right. I think, Lisa, that's why we get to work personally with Colby Gilmore of of Blue. Trust.

 

Alisa [00:27:13] That's right. Colby Gilmore, along with other Blue Trusts certified wealth strategist, offers personalized, biblically centered financial planning and investment management services. No matter what your income level.

 

Chris [00:27:27] Is, at least to see that title twice. Blue Trust Certified. Well strategist that's a tough.

 

Alisa [00:27:32] I'm not sure I could.

 

Chris [00:27:33] I know. So they put they do put clients best interests first and they don't sell financial products. I love that about them.

 

Alisa [00:27:39] Me too. And you know what? We highly recommend Colby Gilmore and Blue Trust. For anyone looking for both financial unity with your spouse and opportunities to increase your wealth and your generosity.

 

Chris [00:27:52] So if you guys want to check out Ron blue.com or reach out to Colby Gilmore at Colby.Gilmore@Ronblue.com That's Colby.Gilmore@Ronblue.com. I think you guys will be glad you did.

 

Alisa [00:28:13] So when we're navigating our loss and our disappointment with God for whatever this tragedy is in our life, seems like there's several ways we can respond. And you were kind of touching on that. But one I want to address, especially in the Christian body as believers. The it's I think we tend to default to is a sense of over spiritual izing it and where and I'm sorry I could probably come up with a different term for it than that. But what comes to mind is somebody who completely ignores the pain, who just stuffs it or just doesn't lean into it. Maybe they're not consciously stuffing it, but they just I mean, just the response is all joy, Joy, joy. My joy is in the Lord. The Lord is the strength of my salvation. I'm just going to rejoice in the Lord and and everything is going to be, you know, and good and and we can see that a lot on social media, I think.

 

Chris [00:29:21] And so one thing, Lisa, you're saying is not only is the person who's experienced the grief and the loss, maybe denying or in better terms, yeah, stuffing. But even people's responses to people are, don't worry, this all fades. Don't worry. God is still God. He's still king. Is that what you're kind of talking about is.

 

Alisa [00:29:44] Yeah, but I'm talking really the first case, the person who's actually experiencing it. And I think that by doing that, it can. It's dangerous for a couple of reasons. I think, first of all, it circumvents the opportunity for growth that you were talking about. Kevin If we really take the opportunity to just sit with the pain, sit with the disappointment, the anger, the frustration, the questions we have, and just be in it for a little while and acknowledge this stinks. This really sucks. It hurts. It's painful. So I think it can circumvent our growth. The opportunity to sit there and say, Lord, I just need you to sit with me, that the opportunity for Godly lament.

 

Chris [00:30:30] Yeah, you know, what do you think, Kevin?

 

Kevin [00:30:31] Yeah, well, I'm struck by a few things you're saying. I think one of them is Jesus doesn't over spiritual as pain, you know that I think about when.

 

Chris [00:30:42] That's a funny statement. Yeah. I was very gentle. I didn't.

 

Kevin [00:30:45] When. When Lazarus died, we all remember this message. He wept when. When painful things were happening to people he cared about. He was responding to it with an honest sort of response that was reflective of what they were experiencing, their own suffering that they were experiencing. And of course, he had a. Larger picture of what was going on than we would have. But he was really very connected to the reality of this person I love is suffering these the the the friends and family of Lazarus. He watched them grieve and he grieved with and grieved over his own loss of Lazarus.

 

Chris [00:31:25] Such a powerful word to. Probably the most powerful verse I think, in all of this discussion today is that verse in Matthew Jesus wept. It's a whole it's two words Jesus wept. But it's such a transformative view of the God and the king of the universe, who, like you said, easily could have spiritualized this whole thing and said, Look, God's in control. He's always been in control. I've created the earth, the creative universe, and it's all going to be good in the end. And that very God says he.

 

Alisa [00:32:01] Well, he felt pain and he felt. And I think that's the part that's so transformative about his response.

 

Kevin [00:32:09] Don't you? Can I totally agree. And I think it's connected to what you were saying earlier, Lisa, which is sometimes that that kind of I guess I would just kind of call it Pollyannish response in a way to to pain and to loss and and not acknowledging. It's really kind of deeper impact on us. It has a bit of a non relational nature to it. How do I sort of connect with that person who who isn't able to talk about their pain in a more honest, reflective moment and they feel they feel distant in many ways. They feel hard to connect to. And in some ways I think, you know, to give people who are sort of in that space credit, I think a lot of times it's it's just so frightening and it's so painful. And there's this sense almost consciously or not, if I enter into that, I can't close the door on that. Now, I've not a friend. All of this stuff we've been talking about, I have to confront these questions. I have to confront this pain. I have to deal with it much differently than I would, you know.

 

Alisa [00:33:13] And I and I think as believers, another danger of that is that it creates this unrealistic expectation as an onlooker, is that you talked about not having been being able to connect with that person who's experiencing grief. Not only that, but part of that disconnect is now maybe I'm not spiritual. If I agree, maybe I'm not really as good a Christian or as mature in my walk. If I'm grieving, if I'm angry, if I'm asking questions, because look how she's responding. Why can't I do that? And it's totally unrealistic. And one of the phrases that I finally landed on during our Year of Joe that I found very helpful not only for myself but for other people, because people were so gracious in kind and they frequently stopped me and said, Lee, we've heard about Chris. We've heard what's going on, How are you doing? And and there were days that I just said, you don't have enough time right now. We don't have enough time to unpack what all is going on in our lives right now. And you can't really say that I didn't want to approach it that way. So the phrase that I landed on was, you know what? We're not okay. But we're okay. And everybody seemed to intuitively get that. Things are not okay. We're hurting. We're struggling right now. But ultimately, we know we're going to be okay because we are trusting God. We are in his hands and he's faithful. We know that that we're not okay, but we're okay. Yeah.

 

Chris [00:34:57] No, that's good, Lisa. And, you know, the the picture that came to my mind as you two were, you know, talking about this, when someone does, you know, put up that kind of maybe false, you know, everything's going to be perfect. Everything's great. I'm good. You know, it reminds me of the movie Frozen, where she's. Is she. Is it Ana or is it who has been frozen? Who's the Elsa? Yeah, Elsa.

 

Alisa [00:35:28] Elsa is the one that has.

 

Chris [00:35:30] Has experienced this pain of like, I'm no longer able to be with people. It hurts. It was painful, but she. She wins it. It's okay. I'm going to live in this world. I'm going to create ice around me so that no one can come in. And. And it was almost as if, look, everything's fine. I'm just going to live and be and exist. And I that's the picture that comes to mind when when people can take maybe this unhealthy approach to it. And so. Kevin. As you're processing and thinking about this, as you deal with so many different people in your set, in, you know, in your practice. What do you do for those that are experiencing grief in this season that's upcoming? How do you prepare them? What what steps do you give them? What do you have them work on? And what's your recommendation coming bearing out of not only your, you know, personal experience, you know, life, but also from your professional? What are some things you do and prepare people for in this?

 

Kevin [00:36:32] Well, I think for those who are going to be with people who have experienced a loss. I would really encourage patients and and sort of a capacity to be with them in whichever way they're present because maybe they are going to present in a way where they're sort of removed from the experience. And what I have found is we have to just sort of tolerate that, too, and kind of be present to whatever degree we can with that as well, and not confront it and not push it, because for whatever reason, they're just not ready to kind of walk into that kind of landscape.

 

Chris [00:37:08] They feel like they've checked out and emotionally not part of the group, the setting, the family. And you're saying patients sometimes.

 

Kevin [00:37:17] Sure. And and I think to really normalize almost every emotional experience one can think of as it relates to a significant loss, because some people are going to be in denial about it. Some people are going to be angry about it. Some people are going to be depressed. And we haven't really talked about that, but they're going to be down and sad and isolated. They're going to be somewhere in that journey of healing and they may be very early in it or they may be farther along in it. And I think our work, when we're going to be with people who have been through a significant loss is is to sort of be a good student of where they're at and try to be present with them, where they're at. Ask the appropriate questions. But don't push don't don't push farther than they're ready to go and don't expect them to be in a different place than they are. I remember I think it was the first Christmas after my my first wife had passed and I didn't want to be with family at Christmas. I didn't want to spend time with my nieces and nephews and my siblings and their spouses and my parents. And frankly, I just didn't want to be around and have to sort of be expected to kind of enjoy that time. And I don't know that, frankly, that they quite knew what to do with that either. And I remember I skipped Christmas and I went skiing by myself for the day while those kids snow skiing is decided.

 

Chris [00:38:48] I'd need time.

 

Kevin [00:38:50] I needed time alone. And I know it. I knew it disappointed them. But I think but they were generous and gracious and made space for that. And so my I think the deeper point I'm trying to make is I expect kind of a bit of anything and everything. If you're there as somebody who loves them, if you're the person who had the loss, you may be in any of those states that we just described. And frankly, some contexts might feel like environments that you would want to be in with all of that and some may not. And being a good, I think, a good steward of your own sort of capacity. Because this Christmas, this Thanksgiving might feel very different than previous Christmases and Thanksgiving and being mindful of what it is that you can really endure. And when it is, you might not be able to endure.

 

Chris [00:39:44] Kevin There's a difference, too, between you spending time with your family and spending time, let's say, with those are equally grieving the loss of their daughter, her family. And I imagine that's different, right? If I'm in a family setting and we all lost somebody pivotal, we all have a different relationship with the same person. It's like we all are there in this. And that feels, you know, that's a little bit different, right, than someone who, let's say, lost their spouse and now, like in your situation. And and that also determines a little bit of how you approach it, how you feel. Some are like, I just don't want to be around all my family who's also grieving is like, this is painful. I'm getting sad just looking at you. And so those could be issues to.

 

Kevin [00:40:33] Just be too much.

 

Alisa [00:40:34] Well, I think one thing you were keen in on, too, is what you're saying, Chris, is that there were there are other people that are experiencing the loss, too. Right. Of that person. Like with Tatum, who lost a cousin. There's not only the parents of the young man who died, her cousin that died, but there's also his siblings. There's also the cousins. And maybe they each person grieves differently. And I love what you were talking about, to extend permission to grieve differently and patience with each other. That just because I'm not weeping and crying doesn't mean I'm not sad, too. That I'm not grieving too are just because this brother or sister is getting angry or this parent is getting angry doesn't mean that they're not grieving. Or just because the other one is totally avoiding it doesn't mean they're not grieving.

 

Kevin [00:41:38] Yeah, There's a famous quote about grief that goes something like this. I, I butcher a little bit, but each person's grief is exactly like everyone else's grief. Each person's grief is similar to other people's grief. And each person's grief is completely different than other people's grief. And with the writers really trying to describe and that is that at any given moment in time, who and what I'm grieving might be similar. It might be very different. My experience of it is going to really kind of ebb and flow depending on the nature of that loss. And so we can kind of create principles around grief. So that's why Kubler-Ross created her five stages of grief. That's why Bill Wharton describes the four sort of tasks of grief and.

 

Chris [00:42:25] Old professor.

 

Kevin [00:42:26] Here. Exactly. So we can we can kind of normalize a bit and kind of have some sense of how grief might play out. And even Kubler-Ross would say not all people experience all five stages and not all people experience them in the same order. So we kind of have a sense of what this looks like, but we also know. My loss is unique. My grief is unique. Your loss is unique and your grief is unique. And in being able to kind of be present in all of that spectrum is, I think both our work for the people that we care about, but also in terms of our own loss experience. So it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's just unique. Every experience is.

 

Chris [00:43:08] So and you tie in now personalities right? Some people are external processors right and they they just want to talk about it and they need to and they need to say this reminded me and and others are these you know internal processors that need time. Like you said, I need to use it. I need to get away and go skiing and just be away. And that's a way of processing and just being able to sit with that. What do you think about creating, you know, any sort of memorial, you know, like a new tradition or a way that helps you remember things? Some people, you know, find that to be an object. You know, that they say, this is where I met God or this is where I dealt with this pain and this is where God met me in this pain. And, you know, we build those, you know, stones. You know, Ebenezer has to show God was faithful here. Sometimes that could help. I imagine a person go, Yeah, this was painful, but this is right where God met me. Yeah.

 

Kevin [00:44:10] No, I think it's an interesting point. Bill Warden would talk about this idea and sort of his last task of grief that we really kind of ultimately need to find a place for our grief. And and that's not something we do early in the process. This is sort of at the tail end of the process, right? It's a place we go. So for some people, it might be the cemetery, For some people it might be the ocean. For some people it might be a location that the loved one used to really love and enjoy. And it's sort of like a way for us psychologically to to feel that that loss to some extent over it might be impacting us, but that we can kind of go to it and then we can leave it right, we can visit it and we can sort of leave it. It's like visiting somewhere and then going back to our home. And so I think that idea of creating, especially around the holidays and if that loss has been recent or maybe it was long time ago, I do think kind of creating a sense of remembering of that person and maybe it's a special place they visit together or maybe it's it's a time of prayer or whatever that might look like, but it's unique.

 

Chris [00:45:20] Well, it's great.

 

Alisa [00:45:22] For for those of us that maybe are a friend or a relative has experienced loss. What would you say? What are some of the things that you should never say to somebody? What are the phrases we should avoid saying to another person who is grieving? Who's going through loss? Yeah, some things we should never say. And then what would be some really appropriate, very meaningful things we could say, because I know some of us can just avoid the person because we don't know what to say and we're afraid of hurting them or making them cry or something. So what are the always the nevers?

 

Kevin [00:46:07] Well, I think the the always might look more like being willing to ask, how are you really doing? Been thinking a lot about you have been praying for you. How are you doing is any way that we can continue to pray for you. Do you need anything the kinds of questions that are just really relational and acknowledging because especially when it's a death, it's not like we aren't thinking about that person all the time. In fact, you'll hear one of the struggles is that I feel a lot of pain because they don't ask, right? Because we don't want to enter into that territory. I think the never we kind of know what those things are. I think in some way I really resist telling people it's going to be okay because we don't know if it's going to be okay or not. Some of the biblical passages that get misused, even though they might be true, it's just tone deaf to kind of offer them in that moment, like the Lord will never give you anything that you can't endure. These kinds of things, I think, that are platitudes that aren't acknowledging the real depth of what they're going through. And so anything that feels minimizing shallow and we're all kind of seen it, you just want to avoid it as much as possible.

 

Alisa [00:47:17] Thought about the phrase to keep in mind that you want to avoid is anything that starts with the phrase at least. Yes, at least. I mean, there there are those times in our own grief that that thinking at least was very helpful. You know, when Chris was diagnosed with his cancer, the one thing we were waiting on, the staging and we were hoping it was like a 1 or 2, it came back at three, almost to four. But. We walked out looking at each other going, okay, it's a three. We okay? At least it's not brain cancer. But you know what? Nobody else said that to us. We could say that to ourselves. Yeah, but had anybody else said that to us? I would have Detto might think so. Any. Any phrase that starts with the words, at least. Yada, yada, yada. Do not say that.

 

Chris [00:48:10] Yeah. No. Those are. Those are good thoughts. You know, and maybe and finally, sometimes, Kevin, the final response, you know, avoiding these kinds of things and doing that is just, again, turning to what Jesus did. And he entered in to their lives and he just wept and he probably wept with them. And and he and sometimes that's what that's what it takes. Just sit there, be a friend and we put them. Might be it. Kevin, we are out of time already, unfortunately. Lisa, final thoughts as we wrap this up?

 

Alisa [00:48:45] Yeah, I would just point our listeners to a book that was very helpful that was passed on to me during our your job that I just loved and really ministered to my heart as we were grieving, you know, the that journey of cancer treatment, what was and what might be or might not be. But anyway, the name of the book is called Dark Clouds Deep Mercy. Dark Clouds. Deep Mercy. I wish I could. I'm going to massacre. Massacre. His name. His name is Mark. Broke up the r o e GOP. Dark clouds. Deep Mercy. Would highly recommend that book. You need resources that come to mind for you, Kevin.

 

Kevin [00:49:27] I. I think that I'd like to throw out a really great Christian title, and I know there are many. Yancy writes on.

 

Chris [00:49:39] The slide.

 

Kevin [00:49:40] And you know some of Keller's material. But in terms of just one of the finest books on the nature of loss, I still would recommend Judith viewers book called Necessary Losses. It's a 3040 year old book the spokesman around forever. And yet I still think it is probably one of the absolute best reads on the nature of loss.

 

Alisa [00:50:04] Necessary loss. Yeah. Good. You know, we will link to these books in the in the show notes. And Chris, you know.

 

Chris [00:50:12] I well, I wished I could have something deeper profound. I think the far side comic strip was just got me through a lot, man. I just kept reading over and over some of the most amazing comic historian out there. The far side. Exactly.

 

Alisa [00:50:28] Was.

 

Chris [00:50:28] That was actually great. Yeah. Hey, we're out of time. Dr. Kevin Van Lan, thank you. Thank you for joining us. Lisa, final just wrap it up and we're just going to say thank you for joining us, Right?

 

Alisa [00:50:41] Yeah. Thanks for listening. On the Art of Relationships. We are part of Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. You can find more information and resources at cmr.biola.edu. And we will see you next time on the Art of Relationships Thanksgiving. Bye bye.

 

Mandy [00:51:02] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.