Red Hot Monogamy: Making Your Marriage Sizzle with Bill & Pam Farrel

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Mandy [00:00:01] Welcome to another Art of Relationships podcast. We are grateful for listeners like you. Let's get right into it. 

Chris [00:00:11] Again. Welcome to another, Art of Relationships podcast. At least it's fun to do this together.  

Alisa [00:00:16] Hey. Good to see you again. 

 Chris [00:00:18] Yeah, yeah. 

 Alisa [00:00:19] As always. 

Chris [00:00:20] Yeah. And so one of the great opportunities that we have during this time Lis, is to talk with, guests and others who, have their heart, passion, and light industry involved in, in working with couples. And this couple with us today is Bill and Pam Farrel. You guys, welcome to our, podcast. 

Pam [00:00:38] Oh, it's so fun to be here. So fun to be back at Biola 

Bill [00:00:42] It's a privilege. 

Pam [00:00:43] My alma mater. 

Chris [00:00:44] It's a great place, isn't it? And they're the sponsor of this as well. And, let's tell them a little bit about the Farrels right quick. And then, you know, what we want to do is, as we introduce you, we want to talk some about intimacy in marriage. I think intimacy and marriage, they're all tied in. Right? If spiritual intimacy is good. So as you're probably emotional intimacy and therefore so is your physical intimacy, they're all connected. And let's let's hit those today a little bit Lisa. 

Alisa [00:01:12] Yeah. So we want you to get to know a little bit about Bill and Pam Farrel. If you are not familiar, I can't imagine if you're not familiar with them that, Bill and Pam have been married for 44 years. Yay! Good. 34 good years. 

Bill [00:01:28] It doesn't feel that long. 

 Pam [00:01:29] That's right. 

Alisa [00:01:30] That's good. We have a friend that says they've been married, for instance. They would say. He would say, yeah, we've been married 44 years and it feels like 44 minutes underwater. And then his wife practically hits him. This is terrible. Anyway, you've been married for 44 years. You've authored 59 books. How do you have time to write 59 books? That's incredible. 

 Bill [00:01:54] And one at a time. 

 Pam [00:01:55] And you know, when you're married to a pastor of a small church, it's called the tennis shoes. Need. But so you like, you write, you write, you write as God gives you the ideas and provides. 

 Alisa [00:02:06] Well, well, we are thrilled. You have had just an incredible ministry for marriage, for families over the years, your own beautiful family. We really wanted to have you come in today because you have a particular book that we were very interested in talking with you about during February, obviously, Valentine's and it is called Red Hot Monogamy making your marriage sizzle. Okay. So what? Yeah. What does that sound effect one more time. So I have to ask you, what's your personal story behind this? Why did you write this book? 

 Pam [00:02:45] It's like it's such a fun book. So we were celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary, and, our friend Anita Renfroe, she's probably. She's been on Good Morning America. You know, she's epic as far as a comedian and does music. 

 Bill [00:02:58] Very funny, very funny. 

 Pam [00:03:00] So we brought her for our 25th leg dinner dance celebration. And so she got up and she's like. 

 Bill [00:03:07] And we, we had been working on this book and we knew we wanted to add a book on marital intimacy to our repertoire. 

 Pam [00:03:15] We just signed a contract to write a book about sex. 

 Bill [00:03:17] And a little bit of it was out of frustration because we're really frustrated with the view of sex that the world tends to have and how many people get hurt by it. We tend to devalue those who are committed to marriage because they have one sexual partner and they're working on their sexual relationship with one another. And if those people don't talk about it, you know, the people have a great sex life and marriage. They don't, you know, go to their friends and say, you know what I'm doing? Just content. So we want to get the message out. But we didn't have a title. 

 Pam [00:03:47] Yeah. So Anita gets up and she's like, hey all, we're here to celebrate. Pam and Bill's rashes, red hot monogamy and all of our friends were sitting like, with us at the table. And they're like, that's a great title. And Anita heard it. She's like, you can use that, friend. And so we did. 

 Bill [00:04:03] And then our oldest son, we'd asked him to say grace over the meal, so he got up front and he said, hello, my name is Brock Farrel and I'm the first product of my parent’s righteous red hot monogamy. 

 Pam [00:04:14] And you know, people are like, so how do we know Bill and Pam that your marriage is red hot? And it's not like we're going to invite you over, you know, put chairs in front of our bedroom window and open up the screen. No, we're not going to do that. And so, there's a story that happened that same year, was when Brock, was dating and headed into engagement with Hannah. And they met because, I did a book signing in her parent’s Christian bookstore, and then they were both at Liberty University, and, they got introduced. So, yeah, we're all into arranged marriages. Just kidding, just kidding. Anyway, so, they were we were all in town for this Christian book signing thing, and, so we all went to dinner together, but then we had some interviews like this that we had to do. So we took off to go change our clothes. And Brock was staying, to do some fun activities. And then it started raining as he walked from Hannah to her hotel with her parents. He walks across downtown Atlanta. He's just soaking wet. By the time he gets to the hotel where we're staying, he walks up. He sees on our door. It says do not disturb. And I hear him say, are you kidding me? I'm like, soaking wet here. And look what my parents are doing. And I just open the door, start laughing. I'm like, thank you so much, Brock, for that compliment that you and your 21, you know, year old mind thought what your parents were doing Wednesday at 2:00 was red hot monogamy. Thank you for that compliment. 

 Chris [00:05:42] I'm sorry. 

 Bill [00:05:43] I wasn't even in the. 

 Chris [00:05:43] Room. 

 Pam [00:05:45] Sorry. 

 Chris [00:05:46] That's so funny. That's. That's pretty good. Yeah. 

 Alisa [00:05:49] The last thing your 21-year-old wants to think about is that is your parent’s red hot monogamy. 

 Chris [00:05:55] Well, so that you guys found the title, you knew your. You're already signed up to a book deal harvesting, you know. So now, of course, you've had lots of experience in life as far as marriage, as far as monogamy, and as far as, the good and the bad. What stood out to you? What was your intent in the book? Because I'm assuming it was too. It's both to hit and I know it is. How to increase, how to keep, and how to make your physical sexual intimacy continue to be strong. But there's a bunch of issues that you have to overcome as well. So how to. 

 Pam [00:06:37] Ban the flame on your romance? 

 Chris [00:06:40] It starts with yeah, and the flame could be pretty small. What are what causes the flame in marriage to go down that you guys are trying to fan? What are some of the biggest things that you found. 

 Bill [00:06:52] On a very practical level? Like, in my opinion, the biggest obstacle to intimacy is responsibility. And every year adults add responsibility to their lives. And, you know, 15, 20 years in marriage. It's not that they didn't want to stay in a minute. It just got run over by responsibility. 

 Chris [00:07:10] Like roles, like jobs. 

 Alisa [00:07:12] Like being too busy. 

 Chris [00:07:13] Seizing us kids. 

 Bill [00:07:15] Right? Yeah. And community involvement and like, watching. 

 Pam [00:07:18] TV. 

 Bill [00:07:20] And, and so we have to find a way to interrupt that trend if we want to have, like, if you want to have a few years in a marriage of good sex, it doesn't take all that much. If you want to have a lifetime of good intimacy, you have to raise your game. So one of the things Pam and I asked early on is, okay, how much time is it going to take for us to stay connected to each other in the midst of a busy life? And so we came up with an acrostic on time to remind us of what it takes. 

 Pam [00:07:48] So how much time does it take to have? 

 Chris [00:07:50] T I M E, let's go. 

 Bill [00:07:52] Let's he. He's really a reminder for me more than anything else. It's 10 or 20 minutes a day to check in because that's generally the first thing it goes, you know, I got this, this, this, this is I'm exhausted. I go to bed. And so I had to train myself every day. I'm going to check in with Pam to just find out. How is she doing? You know what happened that frustrated her? What happened that brought joy to her life? And how can I be praying for? 

 Pam [00:08:14] And vice versa. You know, because we women are more likely to say yes to our mate when he's interested in us, sexually, if we feel like he's in our world, you know, connected to our heart and, like we tell, young people, like in newlyweds all the time. If you give your man your body, he'll give you his heart. And if you. 

 Bill [00:08:38] As a man, if you give your wife your heart, she'll want to give you her body. 

 Pam [00:08:42] Right. 

 Chris [00:08:42] It's great.  

Bill [00:08:43] Yeah. And we tend to come at it differently. So as men, you know, I think all of us need to be reminded your wife loves to interact with you verbally. So 10 or 20 minutes a day just to check in. It's not it's not problem-solving. It's not asking what, you know. What did the kids do that I need to address? Yeah. It's how are you and what what made you smile? What made you frustrated? So that we're connecting on a daily basis. And Pam knows, oh, he's busy, but he's interested. 

 Pam [00:09:08] And then I is for invest in a weekly date night. It doesn't have to be at night either. Hours, actually, because in the ministry was a breakfast. Often times. And and we found really that we needed two times because oftentimes you go on a date like we went on this anniversary date and it was San Diego Bay, and there's lights and there's music and there's dancing. It's so romantic for us. Not romantic for the couple sitting next to us. They started talking about problems with the cars from just the kids from the IRS. They were yelling at each other. And finally the woman start crying. She's like, we can't talk like this. This is our anniversary. So they just quit talking. Two hours silent, held captive on a boat, and our hearts broke for them because the busyness of life had just pulled them apart. And so Bill and I found that for us, if we had a date night on Thursday night, that was all romantic. And we talked about each other. And then we set aside Monday, our Monday. Day morning marriage meetup. We actually have a set of books now called the Marriage Meetup. That's a devotional planner for couples that want, productivity and passion and, you know, purpose in their marriage. So we saw you. Let's separate them out. Our business meeting one time and our romance the other day. 

 Alisa [00:10:29] Oh, that's good. 

 Bill [00:10:30] Idea about finances and kids and schedules and what problems we need to overcome, because those things are part of intimacy, too. You know, the thing about marriage is you merge your whole life together. So if you're if you're intimate on your finances, you're intimate in your scheduling, you're intimate and your decision making, it's easier to be physically intimate. 

 Pam [00:10:48] But we found it just much better to have two separate times that we would do that, because then our Thursday night would just be more like, you know, roses and romance and nice dinners and lovely walks and talk. 

 Bill [00:11:01] And Chris, I don't know about you, but when I was thinking about marrying Pam, I didn't look at her and go, and that's a woman I could work with for the rest of my life. I want to get really busy with her, you know? I want to load up with responsibility with her. 

 Pam [00:11:14] I yeah, I want to pay a Southern California mortgage with that girl. 

 Chris [00:11:18] Yeah, that's really good. 

 Bill [00:11:19] I love the way this woman interrupts my life. And that's what dating does, is it keeps it keeps you interrupting each other's lives with the personality that you fell in love with. 

 Chris [00:11:29] That's great advice, I love that. 

 Pam [00:11:30] And then Emma's monthly getaway. And we say monthly getaway, meaning a long period of time. So that might be the time you get the babysitter. You know, you don't always on the date nights. You don't have to go out, you know, to date on those weekly times. We did a lot of our dates, at home. And we just trained our little ones that. Okay, there's nights mom and dad time. And so you have this. There's night, you know, box of toys you can only play with on Thursday nights. And you can step as long as you want, but you have to stay on your bed. If you get off, no more toys. And you know what? They were so cooperative and they would just fall asleep naturally. And we all had a good time. They had a good time in their own. We had a good time. 

 Bill [00:12:10] Everybody got to be teenagers, too, like, oh, that's what you were doing. Another victory. 

 Alisa [00:12:16] Oh, no. 

 Pam [00:12:17] The monthly getaway is long enough so you can connect emotionally and have time for red hot monogamy as well. So it's kind of like light at the end of the year. 

 Bill [00:12:26] And again, speaking to the men like you, you ladies have an incredible gift that you connect all of your life. So over time, your life gets bigger and the bigger your life gets in your soul, the smaller we are in that, in that picture. So when you get away for 6 to 8 hours, it shrinks your world back down and it reminds you of what you have as a couple. 

 Pam [00:12:47] And sometimes you have. Sometimes you have to be very proactive to get this, you know. So we are at this stage of life when our kids were in what I call the Oasis stage, they're out of preschool. But nobody's in, high school with a bad attitude. So they, like, think your ideas are good? Okay, so that's the age of our kids. And I look at. I'm writing, we're speaking. I'm a director of women's ministry bills that, pastor. And so we're just, like, zooming by each other. And a bunch of our congregation’s crises had interrupted our last few dates. And so I looked down and I'm like, well, I think the next 90 minutes might be it for two weeks. And so, wow, we need to maximize this 90 minutes. So I called the kids in the backyard and I hear Bill's car pull into the driveway. I'm like, guys, see this baby? It has X amount of dollars in here and dimes, quarters, pennies and nickels and you can have it all. And then I broke it and shook it into the ice plant. So. But nobody can come into the house until this much money is added up. And then I took, a quarter in the pocket and I walk in the house, you know, they had fun. They got their treasure, a treasure too. That's what they. 

 Alisa [00:13:54] Figured it out. You had the last piece of the puzzle, so to speak. 

 Pam [00:13:57] My goodness, not for years later. It was the best thing. Ice plant and change. It works great. 

 Bill [00:14:03] And then the E stands for escape yearly. Like you really do need to get away from your responsibility. You know, a lot of people say we don't have time or money to do that, and I agree, we've never had the time or money to do it, but we've always had the need to make it happen. 

 Pam [00:14:16] Like, all I know is divorce costs a lot more than a marriage commitments. And, you know, use we get all kinds of marriage conferences. We use we get marriage conferences, you know, just find 2 or 3 authors that you like. And once a year, go get new tools in your toolbox. And then we also encourage once a year to go away 2440 eight hours and just sleep when you're tired, eat when you're hungry, and have red hot monogamy in between. Who are you? Just so you know, like tonight we're going to a hotel, so we practice what we preach. Okay. 

 Alisa [00:14:47] Guess. 

 Bill [00:14:47] And what we have discovered is when we stay disciplined with that, we keep putting time into our relationship, we rediscover each other, and the interest comes back. If we ignore that, that habit, then life takes over and everything else seems so important and we start to assume, well, she loves me. She'll stay. You should stay. And it she'll stay committed and we just erode the thing we love about our relationship. 

 Chris [00:15:13] Yeah. You know, I hear from a lot of younger people and, a lot of experts out there that social media, technology has really, you know, come in and caused all of, you know, or it's causing people to disconnect. They're constantly on their phone. You know, you sit next to somebody at a restaurant like you all did, and if they're not fighting, they're quiet. And if they're quiet, it's usually because they're on their own phones together. But but I would speculate. No, in reality, this is no different than it's been, you know, ten years ago, 20 years ago, 50 and 100 years ago. There's always something to captivate us, and we're always going to have the problem of thinking, well, this is a little bit more accessible, me holding my phone right now. But and to some extent, they're right that the ease of everything held in this little device, you know, have everything there. But in reality, we always have to make choices. We're always distracted. Back then, imagine it was radio programs and then all of a sudden TV with only three channels. But you had to be there at a certain time. You can, you. 

 Alisa [00:16:15] Know, record. 

 Chris [00:16:16] It, you can record it, but it's always going to be something. So this still applies, doesn't it, that when you're an acronym of time, which I think is wonderful, it also it means that not only it also means a disconnect from the things, the responsibilities or pleasures that are over to this side. It's part of that as well, isn't it? You take time to disconnect, to reconnect. 

 Pam [00:16:42] Right, exactly. And, you know, we encourage couples, if you want a red hot relationship, you have to be proactive about it. And so that's why we have at the end of every chapter there's, conversation questions. And then hands on homework. Yeah. Pun totally intended on this one. Homework you want to do. Because there's a study, you know, many studies out there that those who talk about their sex life actually be about their sex life. And so one of the best things you can do is say, okay, read out monogamy, this book's eight, eight chapters. Let's take the next eight weeks and do it together as a couple. And let's be proactive and invest in our love life the next eight weeks. 

 Bill [00:17:25] And one of the things Pam and I have done as part of our anniversary is, is we have a very honest conversation with each other. What do you like in our intimate life? What did you not necessarily enjoy in our in your intimate life? And yeah, and how do you want to walk through our intimate life this coming year? And you know, when we were first married, that was just like, curious, like, oh, this would be fun to just talk about. Over the years. It's become very strategic, you know, because as as life goes on, you're intimate, life changes. And it you have to integrate a lot more into your intimate life as you age than you did when you were young. So because we've talked about it, we've been able to adjust our intimate life with each other and continue to enjoy each other without the like. We don't have the expectations on each other today that we had at 30 because we're different. 

 Chris [00:18:12] When people hear this, why, what percent say we just don't talk about sex? It this is hard. This is difficult. What percent of couples that you interact with would say, there is. We just don't. 

 Alisa [00:18:26] It's too embarrassing and awkward. 

 Pam [00:18:28] Or they just think it's supposed to be magical. Like you're supposed to read my mind. 

 Chris [00:18:31] You're supposed to know. 

 Pam [00:18:32] You're supposed to know. If you don't know, then you don't love me. So it's like setting up for failure because we need to express what we love. And it's always good to express in thanks and gratefulness. Like, oh, I love it when you do this, or I love it when you do that. Rather than critical. Critical because that will, like push your spouse away, you know? But if you start by warming up the conversation with, oh, I love when you say this or when you do that. And that's why I put those questions in there, because for most people, it's not as easy to talk about as they would think it should be. 

 Chris [00:19:05] You know, I love that you have questions on there. 

 Alisa [00:19:07] You know, we, through our center here, the center for Marriage and Relationships at Biola University. One thing we do is we provide premarital and pre engagement small groups. So they go through like a nine week curriculum with our marriage and family therapist on staff with us here. And one of the things that she does on one of the weeks, the topic is sexual intimacy. And one of the things she has them do is she has a list of anatomical terms, sexual intimacy, intercourse terms, and she has them practice reading those terms out loud to each other so that they can get used to talking about this. They can become more comfortable that it's not like, oh my gosh, I don't think I can say the word peanuts in front of you. Oh, you know, it's like, oh my gosh. And I can imagine I remember being young and not married yet. There's no way I would have said the word penis to you. Now, I've had kids, I've had boys. We've been married 36 years. It can roll off my tongue so quick as like. 

 Pam [00:20:10] It's a good thing I created it. It's like. Created this wonderful gift. It's lovely when we prioritize the gift in our marriage. 

 Bill [00:20:19] You ask the question, you know how many couples? I wish I had an empirical study to quote so I can give you my impression. Yeah, like when we do a seminar, my impression is about 20% of the people in the audience have been courageous enough to talk about the other 80%. It's off limits. And in the couples that I work with, I would say it's the high 90% who have been afraid to talk about this, and they haven't thought about it until I mentioned it to them. 

 Chris [00:20:47] Oh. 

 Bill [00:20:47] Well, just one last thing. Every year some young couple asks me, why are we in the Christian world, so afraid to talk about this? 

 Pam [00:20:55] And we shouldn't be, because all the studies back up that God's principles actually create red hot monogamy, for example. When we were doing research for red hot monogamy, we found that couples that pray together daily have the highest satisfaction in their sex life. Couples that connect emotionally, like take those prayer walks together. They have high satisfaction in their sex life. Couples that attend church weekly have a high rate of loving their sex life. And Bill loves this. He was small group's pastor for Doctor David Jeremiah for years. Couples are in small groups that believe in long lasting love, actually have long lasting love and value and enjoy their sex life. So I mean, if there's like a brochure that should go out from churches, it should be, hey, come to church on Sunday, you have red hot monogamy because God's principles work, God's principles fanned the flame. 

 Chris [00:21:49] And what's on the opposite side? I love that, by the way, that there are these, things that we can do right in creating intimacy spiritually with the other person. That actually increase our emotional, physical intimacy. There are things that are going on, and they're not new. There's nothing new under the sun today, but they're more accessible. They're more they're that actually detract and cause issues. And there are couples and people out there listening now who go, oh, I wish we could just get there. But we are still struggling. What role and what are those things? My guess is it would be. You already mentioned one responsibilities. Too busy to connect, right? Pornography is going to be out there. It it is got to be, you know, one of these addictive things that are going to prevent some couples from experiencing all that God wanted them to do within their marriage. What's the advice you would give to the couples that might be, on the other, the wrong end of the spectrum? 

 Pam [00:22:50] Like they say red hot? My, it's not in pink gland, it's not there. Don't go through it alone. That's our first layer. Get some some help. Right. 

 Bill [00:22:59] And in a general sense, Chris, I would say what you're referring to is the expectations we've put in our relationships. Like there's a certainly an addictive, part to pornography, but there's also the it just raises the expectations. Are relationships supposed to look like this? 

 Pam [00:23:15] And it's unrealistic, right. 

 Bill [00:23:17] Because all of that has been rehearsed. It's been scripted. It's been edited. 

 Pam [00:23:21] Airbrushed. 

 Bill [00:23:22] And and so lining up our expectations with real life. And you may need help to get there because, you know, we know having a sexually intimate relationship, it's all of the above. Sometimes it's incredible. It's this deep emotional connection. Sometimes it's just spectacular physical experience. Sometimes it's really awkward. And like I didn't go very well. I was that. And and sometimes, you know, you have great intentions and it doesn't happen. You end up not being physically intimate, but you end up sitting and talking for a lot longer than you'd anticipated. And we want it to be all of the above. And so what we tell couples all the time is you're unique. It's never been a couple like you. There's never going to be a couple like you again. And your intimate life is your intimate life. So design it together. 

 Pam [00:24:11] Like we have 200 red hot ideas in red hot monogamy. And I always tell people, okay, each of you get a marker, you know, you can go pink and blue if you want. But also a Sharpie that's black. And the the pink would be like wives. Mark, all the ones that you would like to try. Husbands, you know, blue Mark all the ones you would like to try and then the Sharpie. Yeah, never in my life not going to happen here because it's your sex life to design with God. 

 Bill [00:24:39] The most amazing thing, biblically to me, is that there is not a long list of what's appropriate or inappropriate in marital sex. With all the pain it's created, all the disillusion it's created. You would have thought God would have given us a long list. But he didn't do that. He gave us a few principles to follow because this is a relational decision. 

 Pam [00:24:58] Like we have a simple acrostic. You can say yes to that. Sexual activity that meets these simple criteria in. 

 Bill [00:25:05] The way is you're yielded to one another that they it's it's a gift of love to one another that you're giving. You don't force each other. You don't demand. You are yielding to one another because you want this person to feel their value and that the ease you extend it and love, like everything you do in the bedroom, should be an expression of love to one another, which is tough in a world that shows it is a product. You know you're consuming this for your own needs rather than this is a gift of love you're giving to each other. And this is you. Secure it with privacy. 

 Pam [00:25:36] Good luck on the door. And just nobody else in that relationship. Just you two. 

 Chris [00:25:41] Well, I. 

 Bill [00:25:41] Think one of the things that energizes me when Pam and I do presentations is I walk in the room and I say, we have a secret you know nothing about, and we're not telling you. And it raises the value of my relationship with Pam to a level that no other relationship goes. And we live in a world that's try to expose all that and said, you don't have a secret. You just have what everybody else has and it looks like this, and it cheapens it rather than, yeah, it's value to it. 

 Alisa [00:26:10] What what would you say to that couple that they're going through with the markers? The you know, yes. This would be great. Yeah. I'm not sure about that. What if there's a disagreement? What if one partner would like to try something that's kind of out of the box, and the other one just completely feels uncomfortable? No, I don't like that. How how do they manage that? 

 Pam [00:26:31] Well, first they need to pray about it to see what God says. And then, seek God's word. So sometimes there's more guidelines when you have that specific idea that you can say, okay, what's the guiding principle here from God's Word? And, you know, God really does care about this area because he put a whole book in the Bible, Song of Songs or Song of Solomon. There's eight chapters, about a real couple trying to have a real relationship. And that is beautiful. And they. 

 Bill [00:26:58] Have real joys and real struggles. 

 Pam [00:27:00] Yeah. And so there's guidelines we can even get from the Bible on whether this is good or not. And like one of those was, you know, you should agree upon it. No one should be forced. And so if it comes right down to it, you wait until that person is ready. Or if they're never ready, you give that to God. And if you're the person holding back, you pray, Lord, is this me? And I'm like an uncomfortable area? Or is this you leading? And I want a clear call if it's just me being shy, yeah, I can grow through that. If it's just me, me, me. More information. Maybe talk to a doctor. Or even there's Christian sex therapist. Yes. They do exist. Yes they do. So maybe it's just finding out more help. 

Bill [00:27:43] And at least one of the reasons why we have monogamy in the title of our book is if we're in this for life, we can give it time. 

Pam [00:27:52] Yeah. 

 Bill [00:27:53] We like to be very personal. Like if there are times when I have had this conversation with Pam and I can sense, okay, Pam's uncomfortable with this. So I would say to Pam, can we put this on the list for next year to talk about? So now I know Pam's got a year to think about it. I know in a year we're going to be together. We're still going to be interested in each other. It's okay to bring it up. If there's if there's your expectation. I need you to answer now. And I need to know now or I'm going to react. Now we've put so much pressure on it, we're guaranteeing a negative response. 

 Chris [00:28:26] About how about ten minutes? Is that too long? Look, I give this a ten more than, say. 

 Alisa [00:28:30] Bruce. 

 Pam [00:28:31] Green's at least a year. 

 Chris [00:28:32] So he should do one year. I thought I was doing great last night. I'm like, ten minutes now. Move it and shake it one year. That's amazing. I'm sorry. Lisa, I, I apologize. I got rid of it in faith. 

 Alisa [00:28:50] That's okay. So let me ask you this. What would you say? There's at least statistically 25% of couples out there. One of the partners is dealing with sexual trauma in some way. There's been some kind of sexual woundedness. And that has a lot to do with why their monogamy is not so red hot. And it's it's not like they can't. It's not like they don't want to talk about it. They don't want to experience this, but they can't. There's just a real emotional. Mental sometimes manifests some physical pain. And that's so hard for both both both spouses, the one that was wounded and the one that is married to the wounded. So what kind of what encouragement or what advice would you give to that couple that's listening right now? 

 Pam [00:29:46] That's where it comes down to owning our issue. Like if we're the one that got wounded, then God wants us to be the one that gets healed and he will provide the person, the program, the methodology, the time, the Scripture. He will send help if we raise our white flag like God. I want some help here. And we always encourage people. There's like, your wedding ring is multifaceted. Look at your, red hot monogamy and multifaceted stew, because the blockage could be coming from a lot of different areas. For example, we want social intimacy. Financial intimacy, recreational intimacy, you know, friendship base vocational and risk parental. We need to agree upon how we're raising our kids. Emotional intimacy, then sexual intimacy. Yeah. Maybe one of us was wounded. And it's not always the woman nowadays. And and then spiritual intimacy. And if we have an area of brokenness or woundedness in any of those areas, it's going to impact our red hot monogamy. And so when we say build a strong support system and say, okay, who's the smartest person that I know that can help with whatever that specific area is? And you you'd go to the smartest, most affordable person that you can invest in to get help in healing. 

 Bill [00:31:06] And I would just add a couple of things. One, new we're talking about Christian marriage here. And one of the most amazing things in the Bible is that marriage is related to the gospel of Jesus Christ. And the way the gospel works is your life changes in a breakthrough moment, and you go from being lost to being found for being in darkness, to being in light, to being an enemy of God, to being God's friend. And marriage works along that same principle, like a marriage can go from being in trouble to being, doing, doing really well in a breakthrough moment. Now, getting to that breakthrough moment might take a lot of work, but for every couple out there that's struggling and you can't quite pull it together, there is a breakthrough moment for you that that could be not too far away, that could change everything. And the other thing I would say to them is don't be afraid to get help getting to that breakthrough moment, because trauma is real. But our Savior is a expert at helping people overcome trauma, and he he's not going to take the memory away. He's just going to redeem it. Okay? And I remember all of the pain we grew up around. We haven't forgotten it. We just saw God redeem it, turn it into a healthy relationship for us. And now a legacy of people who are walking with Jesus and having healthy relationships. 

 Chris [00:32:20] Will, it's great advice. And together, I think with Pam both the advice is find that person. That's the one who has also been called in their ministry to provide some of those redemptive moments by their background in their study and who they talk with. And they do this on a constant, regular basis. They're trained in this. They're specialized. And as you said, they love Jesus. This is their ministry. And they want to be there to help because God's redemption Bill, as you said, it can take place instant. We're transformed. You know, our lives can go from pain to to joy and thriving. And we can take those old things that we've had. But it takes some work, some time. 

 Bill [00:33:05] Getting to the. 

 Chris [00:33:06] Breakthrough. 

 Bill [00:33:06] Moment is where all the work. 

 Chris [00:33:07] Is done. Can use a book, you know, read how God can use his word. God can use other people. And oftentimes he uses all of them to give us transformation. Least I think it's just been so fun, during this, you know, season to talk about sexual intimacy. And in Bill and Pam, you guys have done just an amazing job of one. You guys are articulate, you're good at what you do. And I just love this topic of intimacy. 

 Alisa [00:33:34] Yeah. Do you do you have any last words of encouragement that you'd like to give our listeners? 

 Pam [00:33:39] I think that we'll do something kind of fun. We think that you should have some kind of a code word to express when you're interested in your spouse, because, I mean, it is a gift to your marriage. It's like super glue. That's the power of sex in a relationship. It can help you get through some really tough times if you invest in it. And so we have just some fun code words like, you know, our used to be you want to take a nap, but now that we're over 40, you want to take a nap to me and you want to take a nap. So yeah, if we don't use that one anymore, we have a friend in ministry. He was in youth pastor ministry, and, he was like, oh, wow. We're just running so fast. 

 Bill [00:34:18] And responsibly had taken over their life. And he realized, you know, I've gotten really disconnected with my wife. So he set aside a whole day date and he has his sister to watch the kids took her out for breakfast, realized, okay, we need to spend more time. They went to a local park with a loaf of bread. They sat at the park and they were feeding ducks with the bread and talking and feeding ducks more and talking and feeding and also and time got away from him and he looked at me because we got to go. I told my sister we'd be home. She got to go to work tonight. So they went back to the house. He went to go check with her. She went to go check on the kids and his sister said, so. So how'd it go? Because we had a great day. Thank you. And we spent time feeding ducks. She went, oh, you're eating that? 

Alisa [00:34:58] That's what they're calling it this day.

Pam [00:35:01] So that became their password. Hey, you want to eat some ducks? And, you know, ours is, actually based on mine are like waffles, like spaghetti men and women, we relieve stress differently. We women, we talk our way through stress. But guys like to go their favorite easy boxes to rest and recharge. And God kind of helped us out in that. Most of men's recharge your boxes are actually shaped like boxes. That TV screen is shaped like a box computer screen, shape book box, a basketball court, baseball diamond, football field, phone, phone. All shaped like boxes, shaped like a box. The bed is shaped like this. It is that bed box. Favorite box for husbands to go to when they're stressed out. It's kind of like the bingo card, and a husband can get there from every square on his wife. So the free on the bingo card. And so our code word is, hey, you want to play some bingo? 

 Bill [00:35:50] Bingo cards into the door and game on. 

 Pam [00:35:52] In, like we were speaking at a conference on a, ship, you know, a cruise. And, this couple came running and they had this bag for us, a gift and last day, and we're like, oh, thanks. And they're like, open it, open it. And so we opened it was two t shirts that they had bought off the backs of the rec department, because all week we had seen. Have you been bingo today? So, yeah. Bingo. 

 Bill [00:36:17] Yeah. So huge sense of humor because. 

 Chris [00:36:20] It. 

 Bill [00:36:20] Is funny and. 

 Pam [00:36:21] A candle on your side. It's just like you're cleared for land and. Oh, that's. 

 Chris [00:36:26] God, I walk in the door. All I know is when Lisa says, hey, how about that Dodger game? 

 Pam [00:36:32] There we go. 

 Chris [00:36:34] There I go, you had me. Dodger. 

 Alisa [00:36:36] Is waving you around. Third and two. How lovely. We were speaking at a conference that we're talking about. The topic is sexual intimacy and talking about code words. And this what I don't know if you remember that one couple that said their code word was boom, boom, boom, boom, and it just became the running joke for the rest of the conference. So the most inappropriate verse. 

 Bill [00:36:59] Is some friends of ours that have a habit with their family of doing. 

 Pam [00:37:04] Dogpile. 

 Bill [00:37:04] On, but they call it making hamburgers. 

 Pam [00:37:07] So the first person to. 

 Bill [00:37:07] Buy and then it's a patty and then the cheese and then the tomato. So they. Yeah. Well, they came up from church one Sunday. 

 Pam [00:37:14] Mom and dad or in the bedroom, you know, changing their clothes because they know we're going to make some lunch for the kids. The kids are watching TV in the front room. 

 Bill [00:37:21] Forgot to lock the. 

 Pam [00:37:22] Door. Right, right. And so that mom and dad kind of one thing leads to another and they're in bed and the kids are getting hungry. So they like mom, dad. And they just threw the door open and we all like, wonder, oh my goodness, how will we handle that? And so little. 

 Bill [00:37:35] One said, mommy, daddy, make a hamburger without us. Come on. 

 Pam [00:37:38] Everybody. Dog piled on top of that. Mom's like hanging on to the sheet. And so now there's this. Hey, you want hamburgers tonight for dinner? 

 Alisa [00:37:48] For, you know, the Big Mac? 

 Chris [00:37:50] Yeah, we we had this friend at church, who ran in our church, the little kids class. I don't remember the age. And they were asking. So, children, what are some rules that you have at home that you have to obey, you know? Oh, no, we we're called. No, we can't run in the house. So I said no snacks before dinner. Another one said, we never, walk in to mommy. In daddy's room. When daddy's when daddy's sleeping on top of mommy. The lady teaching knew the parents, and she said that. Wait. I'm sorry. Your rule is. Oh, I never walk into mom and dad. 

 Alisa [00:38:28] Look at those parents. When they come to pick up their kid that day in church. 

 Bill [00:38:32] You're you're proud of them. That's how most guys look. And we're like, Chris, way to go. 

 Pam [00:38:35] One of our friends was, using let's wrap some presents. But then the kids started looking for the presents, so they had to change. Yeah. And one woman was, like, kind of shy. And so she would just put a number, like, in the shower. How it makes the steam. She just put number 1 to 10, how interested she was, like, you know, tens like, ooh, come home at lunch and one's like, yeah, just go golfing after work. 

 Chris [00:38:59] Well, thank you guys for a wonderful talk. 

 Alisa [00:39:01] This has been a wonderful discussion. So appropriate around Valentine's. But the wonderful thing is that it's appropriate every month of the year when you're married. Right. And every week, every. 

Chris [00:39:12] Yeah, every day, every day. 

 Alisa [00:39:15] Every ten minutes. You know, Bill, Pam Farrel, thank you so much for being with us again, that if you are interested in picking up that book, it's called Red Hot Monogamy Making Your Marriage Sizzle. And we hope you have a wonderful Valentine's Day. 

 Chris [00:39:31] We do. Thank you guys for joining us. 

 Pam [00:39:33] Thank you. 

 Chris [00:39:34] Joy, what a great ministry you have. May God continue to bless that. Yeah. 

 Bill [00:39:38] We'll we'll receive that. We will. 

 Alisa [00:39:41] Yeah. We'll see you next time on the Art of relationships podcast. 

 Mandy [00:39:47] Thanks for listening to the Art of relationships. This podcast is only made possible through generous donations from listeners just like you. If you like it and want to help keep the podcast going. Visit our website at cmr.biola.edu and make a donation today.