In this episode, Chris and Alisa Grace explore the crucial distinction between healthy and harmful conflict in relationships. They discuss common signs of unhealthy conflict—like harsh startups, criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, and contempt—and offer practical strategies to help you de-escalate tension, communicate effectively, and foster greater emotional connection.

They dive into topics such as recognizing emotional flooding, using gentle startups, labeling emotions accurately, taking healthy time-outs, and practicing gratitude and repair after conflict. With Scripture, psychology, and personal stories, they provide a clear roadmap to transform conflict into a tool for growth and deeper understanding.

Whether you're dealing with roommates, coworkers, extended family, close friends, or a spouse, this episode offers valuable advice to improve your communication, regulate emotions, and build lasting relational trust.

Resources Mentioned:

• Understanding Feelings and Emotions in Conflict — Resource that helps couples identify and express their emotions during conflict, using a feelings word list, the Speaker-Listener Technique, and a conflict cycle exercise to promote empathy, clarity, and healthier communication.
• Blue Trust (Colby Gilmore) – Biblically-centered financial planning and investment management for couples and individuals.

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: www.youtube.com/@biola-cmr
  
  

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

Mandy [00:00:01] Welcome to The Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, let's get right into it.

Chris [00:00:11] So welcome to another art of relationships podcast, where we're going to talk about conflict, right?

Alisa [00:00:17] Yeah, we're really going to try to unpack today the how do you identify healthy conflict versus unhealthy conflict and then some strategies to really do it well so that you actually grow from it instead of it driving you apart.

Chris [00:00:32] Yeah, let's do this. Um, Jayden pull up that video for us. You can both listen and watch this video, check it out, and then we'll comment on it.

Speaker 4 [00:00:43] I'm gonna go do the dishes. Be nice if you help me.

Speaker 5 [00:00:51] No problem. We'll get them a little bit later. I'm just going to hit the streets here for a little bit.

Speaker 4 [00:00:55] Gary, come on. I don't want to do them later. Let's just do them now. Take 15 minutes.

Speaker 5 [00:00:58] Honey, I am so exhausted. I just honestly want to relax for a little bit. If I could just sit here, let my food digest, and just try to enjoy the quiet for a bit. Get some, get some, that's what happens. And we will, you know, we can clean the dishes tomorrow.

Speaker 4 [00:01:13] You know, I don't like waking up to a dirty kitchen. Who cares? I care, all right? I care. I busted my ass all day cleaning this house and then cooking that meal and I worked today. It would be nice if you said thank you and helped me with the dishes.

Speaker 5 [00:01:29] I hope you do the damn dishes.

Speaker 4 [00:01:31] Oh, come on. You know what? No. See, that's not what I want.

Speaker 5 [00:01:34] You just said that you want me to help you do the dishes. I want you to want to do the dish. Why would I want to dish?

Speaker 4 [00:01:41] See, that's my whole point.

Speaker 5 [00:01:44] Let me see if I'm following this, okay? Are you just telling me that you're upset because I don't have a strong desire to clean dishes? No.

Speaker 4 [00:01:49] I'm upset because you don't have a strong desire to offer to do the dishes. I just did! After I asked you!

Speaker 5 [00:01:55] Jesus, Brooke, you're acting crazy again.

Speaker 4 [00:01:57] Don't you call me crazy! I am not crazy!

Speaker 5 [00:01:59] I didn't call you crazy. I didn't call you cra- No I didn't. I said you're acting crazy.

Speaker 4 [00:02:03] You know what, Gary, I asked you to do one thing today, one very simple thing, to bring me 12 lemons, and you brought me three.

Speaker 5 [00:02:09] If I knew that it was going to be this much trouble, I would have brought home 24 limits, even a hundred limits. You know what I wish? I wish everyone that was at that goddamn table had their own little private bag of limits.

Speaker 4 [00:02:18] It's not about the lemons. So that's all you're talking about? I'm just saying it'd be nice if you did things that I asked. It would be even nicer if you did things without me having to ask you.

Speaker 5 [00:02:29] Well, I do seem to remember doing something for you this morning without you asking. Gary, come on.

Speaker 4 [00:02:35] You know what? No, I'm serious. I really am. Come on, you knew I was working today and I made that meal and you could have thought to yourself, you know what you could've said, I think I'm gonna get Brooke some flowers.

Speaker 5 [00:02:48] You said on our very first date that you don't like flowers, that they're a waste of money.

Speaker 4 [00:02:54] Every girl likes flowers, Gary.

Speaker 5 [00:02:55] You say that you don't like flowers. I'm supposed to take that to mean that you do like flowers?

Speaker 4 [00:02:58] This is not about, you're not getting it. You're not this, Gary. Okay, it's not about the lemons. It's not the flowers. It's about the dishes. It's just, how many times do I have to drop hints about the ballet? You know I can't stick.

Speaker 5 [00:03:11] Brooke, come here, we talked about the damn ballet. I hate the goddamn ballet. You got a bunch of dudes in tights flopping around for three hours. It's like a medieval techno show. It's a nightmare. I sit there in a sweat. The whole thing. I do. I wonder when the hell's the goddamn nightmare gonna end. Go to a damn ballet! It's not.

Speaker 4 [00:03:25] It's not about you lovin' the ballet, Gary. It's about the person that you love loves the ballet and you don't want to spend time with that person.

Speaker 5 [00:03:31] Not when they're at the ballet.

Speaker 4 [00:03:32] Okay, forget the ballet. Forget the ballet! We don't go anywhere together!

Speaker 5 [00:03:37] We just went to Ann Arbor together.

Speaker 4 [00:03:40] To Ann Arbor, to the Michigan Notre Dame game. You think screaming drunk kids and leprechauns doing backflips, that's fun. That's fun for me. Come on, man. I did that for you. What do you, how do you show up for me? I'm up on

Speaker 5 [00:03:53] I'm up on the bus every goddamn day for you. Come on, you... I'm busting my ass to be the best tour guide in the damn city so I can make enough money to support both of us and hopefully you won't have to work one day. I want to work. All I ask, Brooke, is that you show a little bit of appreciation that I just get 20 minutes to relax when I come home instead of being attacked with questions and nag the whole damn thing. You think that I nag you? That's all you do! All you do is nag me. The bathroom's a mess. Your belt doesn't match. Hey girl, you should probably go work out! Nothing I ever do is ever good enough. I just want to be left the hell alone.

Speaker 4 [00:04:35] Really? Is that what you want, Gary? Is that you want? Yeah. That's what you? Yeah. Fine. Great. Do whatever the hell you want. You leave your socks all over this house, dress like a pig, play your stupid ass video game. I don't care. I'm done. What? I am done! I don't deserve this. I really do not deserve this! I deserve somebody who gives a shit! I'm not spending one more second of this life with some inconsiderate prick! You're a prick!

Chris [00:05:02] Okay. So here's a couple of things. Uh, if you weren't able to watch, you're just listening. You could tell right away something happened, Elise. Oh, something happened. And, uh, I think if we're talking about conflict, let's dissect this for just a second. First of all, the first thing you notice is, was a very harsh startup, right? Uh, here he is. He's just kind of enjoying, you know, hanging out on the couch. They had a dinner, you on the dishes are there. And she says something as simple as, help me with the dish. It would be nice if you'd help me. Yeah, and all she said was, fine. And then that set her off, right? Right, again, yeah. So that's what we call a harsh startup. It wasn't like, you know, just kind of built up to this moment of we got dirty dishes and I want them clean and I don't like that. It was bam, immediate. And you could see the emotion on her. She's a great actress and Vince Vaughn, they're both good at this. And they demonstrate something, Lisa, in an argument that oftentimes happen that we would say is unhealthy. First of all, conflict is really inevitable, right? Everybody has conflict. It's gonna be about the dishes, it's gonna about the house, it's going to be about money, it's about in-laws. It's going to be about sex, relationships, whatever, all that. I think what we have to grasp when it comes to conflict is while all conflict, well, conflict is inevitable, it's not created equal. There are different kinds of conflict, but almost every single time you have conflict, there ought to be something that happens that for a lot of people isn't happening right now. What ought to happen, I think, is in a moment of going, all right, God, show me how this conflict, what's going on here, and what's going on in my heart, because I know I'm right. I feel like I'm, right. Let's take Vince Vaughn, the character in this movie clip. He's just sitting there enjoying it. He's like, oh, OK. He volunteered to help do the dishes. He volunteered. And he's probably thinking, wow, you're wacky. This is crazy. There's nothing wrong with keeping the dishes overnight. His perspec- his pers- perspe-

Alisa [00:07:30] From her perspective, there was a lot with leaving a movie.

Chris [00:07:33] Yeah, there was obviously it pushing them. Not all conflict is necessarily equal, but we can all take any conflict we have and use it for a couple of things. Let's go with the unhealthy, right? First thing that we notice in an unhealthy conflict is there's a very quick, or what we call harsh startup, right. And this harsh startup kind of can be over an area maybe that we've always had conflict about. We just keep going into this, we keep hitting the same. Thing about cleanliness or about money or about you spending money or whatever. It's like we go to zero to

Alisa [00:08:09] 10 or 11 like that.

Chris [00:08:12] On a scale of 110, right? Zero to 100 on a skill of 100, right. Okay, that's the first sign that something's wrong. I think a second sign for me in conflict that is I know, all right, this is all, is when I am not really listening to you. I'm just simply waiting and loading up my points as you're talking. To go, well, I'm going to prove and show you why, you know, you're wrong, and why these points are like the greatest things, you, know, ever to come out of the mouth of someone. I've thought about these, right? And so I'm loading up and I could tell, all right, when I'm not listening, or I could tell you or another person isn't listening, that we're just going around each other. That's another sign. Something's off here. And we need to do something, what's another sign of unhealthy conflict, at least that you saw either in this video or that you notice that you've seen over time?

Alisa [00:09:15] Yeah, I think another sign would be criticism.

Chris [00:09:19] Oh, okay.

Alisa [00:09:20] Where instead of, you know, voicing a valid complaint, you actually, you're criticizing the person. You're calling into question their character. And as a, you now, instead of making a complaint as a stating, you, know, hun, you left the dishes in the sink again. You know, they're supposed to go in the dishwasher. That's valid. That's pretty valid. And that's a valid complain, right? Criticism would be. You left the dishes in the sink, you are so lazy, you never think about anybody but yourself.

Chris [00:09:55] I'm just a swab.

Alisa [00:09:56] And so, yeah, and so a great sign and indication that you're falling into criticism as opposed to making a valid complaint is the word you. You did this. You're always like this. You're never doing this. And so always, never, and you, you, that's going to be a really good indication that you're slipping into criticism. And that can be really toxic to a relationship.

Chris [00:10:21] Okay, so you notice a harsh startup, which means you're also revved up, but you're feeling bummed. And one of you, or both of you are using the you always, you never, and or making broad, general criticisms about a person's character, right, versus a valid complaint. We can thank so many people. I think of Scott Stanley at the University of Denver, who has written extensively on this idea of what does conflict look like and what are the steps? You know, Greg Smalley over at Focus on the Family, they've got some great things. Family life, you know, we've learned from them. John has the four horsemen. So another sign, least then harsh startup. You said when there's criticism, I've noticed too that I can and people can get pretty defensive, right? Like, okay, you bring this up. Well, you are now poking at something, especially if you say always and never, and I'm like, wait a minute. I'm not lazy and I am not a slob, and so I'm gonna get defensive, right? And I'm just gonna kinda not let you in. Well, what about you? Yeah.

Alisa [00:11:36] You know, well, you left your shoes out there. Well, you did this. So it's really blaming the other person.

Chris [00:11:42] You're not perfect all the time. How about when you do this? Well, that's a defending, you know, that is really now, okay, I'm gonna fight you when you come in here and tell you all the bad things you have done. When I start falling into defensiveness, it's like easy to see and start going at, to avoid either taking responsibility or to rationalize and justify it by claiming you're just as bad. In fact, you're worse in these areas. That's defensiveness, right? Give me another one that you'd see sometimes happening in conflict that's not healthy.

Alisa [00:12:18] Well, I think one that is a go-to for me personally, that I really have to work on is stonewalling.

Speaker 4 [00:12:24] Never withdraw

Alisa [00:12:26] Yeah, when something comes up and we're in conflict about something, I just want to run away and hide. I want to avoid the conflict. I don't want to talk about it. I wanna pretend like everything's okay. And so I just withdraw and shut down. And that's just a self-protective mode, right? It's like you're building a wall of stone so that you can hide behind it. And so one of the ways that you know you're doing that is when you just uh, or whether to you or the other person, you just, uh, you'll use phrases like, yeah, you're right. Whatever. Yeah. You're right, I'm the bad guy. I'm always wrong. I'm not going to talk about it anymore. You're always right. I'm wrong. Whatever.

Chris [00:13:08] Yeah, and it could even be with less words, right? It could just be, yeah, all right, I don't wanna talk about it, fine, that's right, you're right.

Alisa [00:13:15] Or just a silent treatment, right? Yeah, just.

Chris [00:13:16] Yeah, just the silent treatment and that that could be a sign of withdrawing the stonewalling whatever you're gonna call it How about the worst one? According to Many researchers out there including the Gottman's and others who have studied conflict when they say you see This particular emotional response come out that it may be the best predictor of not just unhealthy conflict, but even divorce. What is that?

Alisa [00:13:46] Yeah. And that's content. And content, you can identify content by sarcasm, eye rolling, like, oh my gosh, look what I have to put up with. Look what I have to live with. Can you believe this? Yeah. And it's a sense of superiority, like oh my gosh, I'm so much better than you. At least I'm not doing that. Yeah. And, you know, look how much harder I have it. You don't have it that bad. I'm, you You know, it's really... Putting yourself in a position of superiority over the other person, and it's that sense of anger mixed with disgust, like you disgust me. I can't believe I'm married to you. I can believe I put up with this.

Chris [00:14:27] Yeah, you nailed the two major emotions, right? All of us have, you know, these emotions that we share in common, right, from anger and joy, you know, but in there, along with, you know, some are hard different, you know, fear, right. But disgust mixed with anger, psychologists would call that contempt, which you just identified. And why is that such a good predictor of divorce, right? What is that? In fact, some researchers have said, man, I start seeing contempt show up. Criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, all of these. It begins to go, yeah, this is an unhealthy way of dealing with.

Alisa [00:15:12] And especially if, you know, you might see these pop up every now and then, but when it becomes a de facto pattern of your interaction, it's a pattern of behavior, your pattern of your conflict that this is what we always default to, that's when it becomes corrosive and really toxic to the relationship.

Chris [00:15:33] Yeah, and there are a number of passages we could talk about, you know, in terms of responding to things that are difficult and hard in a conflict. But I think one that we oftentimes land on is when those happen, I think a go-to passage would be Psalm 139, right? And that is to say, okay, instead of me trying to figure out, God, get me insight into wisdom as to her wrongness, as to the way she has messed this up, and let me point out all of the faults, instead, I think we're challenged to go, oh, hold on, search me, all right? Oh, God. Know me. Try me. Know my anxious thoughts. See if there's a hurtful way in me. And then leave me. In the way I should go. Yeah, and that takes a little bit of time. So we have to kind of, from that emotional kind of flooding, right, when we have that very harsh start up, when we're just overwhelmed and we begin to use one of these kinds of things, defensiveness or you run away or, then I think one of the things we have to do is say, all right, hold on, you need to take, you know, to pause, pray, take some time before you go forward. Proceed. Okay, good. Lisa, these are signs that maybe your conflict is getting to a point, some of what we would call danger zones, right? This is a type of conflict that if you're having and you're seeing one of those signs or a multiple number of signs, you kinda gotta start paying attention to what's happening. Yeah.

Alisa [00:17:10] Yeah, absolutely. And this can be present in any kind of relationship, right? We're not just talking about marriage. This can be presented in the way you interact with your children, your co-workers at work, your extended family members, your friendships. And when you begin to see that several of your friendships are suffering because of this, that you're not happy on them, they're not happy in them, that you're at odds with people. Regularly. That's usually an indication that maybe one or more of these is going on and you really need to push the pause button and be willing to do some self-examination and let the Lord examine your heart too.

Chris [00:17:55] Yeah, boy, all you got to do is pull up, you know, road rage, you know, or Karen moments is like to call them today, right? And you have these moments where you see people just, it feels unhinged, right. It's and that's what we're talking about. So we begin to identify, Lisa, as you said, when this is happening to us. Now, there are ways though, that we can take and use conflict. In a much more healthy way, right? And then conflict is actually a good sign of like, okay, this is maybe a moment of what's going on in my heart right now, Psalm 39, what's goin' on with me? Why am I feeling these things? And there's conflict that can be pretty strong relationship builders of all things. Yeah. I begin to get to, I think the first relationship builder that conflict can do is we begin to see the heart of another person. Yeah. Right, like if I think you're wrong and I think that this is messed up and you're just not seeing it right, you're being stubborn and now I'm starting to get defensive and criticize. One of the fascinating things is when you take and stop and you approach it a little bit with some time and go all right. I need to figure out what's happening in here. One of the things I notice is I'm so much, what's going on with my heart, Lord? What's happening? And then to be able to begin to take the perspective of the other person. One of those hardest things to do is to go, I need put aside my goggles, my way of seeing this, and I need take and listen to what they're saying, listening, taking their perspective. And trying to identify what's going on in their heart is really hard when I'm not feeling good and I'm feeling happy with you.

Alisa [00:19:51] Yeah. And I think what you're alluding to, Chris, is that oftentimes whatever our conflict is about, there's actually something much deeper and more serious going on, right? So, you know, like in the video that we just referenced from the breakup with Jennifer Anniston and Vince Vaughn, she got so ticked right out of the gate when he said, who cares, you know, if the dishes sit overnight? And she immediately went to, I care. I busted my ass, I did this, I did this and you're just sitting on the couch and it's like, whoa, where did this come from? Well, because wisdom tells you at that point, oh, this is not really about the dishes. This is about something deeper. This is something about her feeling maybe, that it's unappreciated. Yeah, she feels unappreciated, maybe. She feels like it's unfair, I cleaned house all day, and then you come home, I'm ready to clean, and I'd like to relax too. And why do you get to relax when I don't get to? Somebody's got to. Doesn't feel fair that I have to do the dishes while you're...

Chris [00:20:59] She doesn't feel cared for, she doesn' feel it's fair

Alisa [00:21:02] Trishy never said that and so, and then for him, he went right back outer, right? And he's like, I told you I would do them once I get down. And so he throws the remote control. So what's he feeling?

Chris [00:21:15] Well, you know, I think at that point, he's probably feeling misunderstood. I'll take his position, right? He basically says, I'm going to, I'll do them with you in the morning, right. Kind of misjudged. Yeah, misjudge. Even being treated, you now, harshly is so unfair when I'm agreeing to do what you want. It's just not on your timing. That's how maybe controlled, a little bit more or less controlled. Control. Again, he doesn't use those words and very few people do. And this is why we put together a list of words that you can go onto our website, cmr.biola.edu. Look up at these words called, when you're having emotion, when you have in conflict, you're these emotions, right?

Alisa [00:21:59] Identify your emotions, yeah.

Chris [00:22:01] One of the keys, I think, in what we've done, Lisa, is we put together not only the label and the word to help a person identify them. For definitions. The definitions. We also put the opposite of each of the negatives. We put the positives. Yeah, okay. So, right, let's go through her. She feels misjudged, she feels uncared for, she feels mis-portrayed, he feels controlled. Well, the opposite of those can be very insightful too, right? If you feel misjudged or let's say you feel you're being treated unfairly, well, what's the opposite is being treated with respect and fairness, being misportrayed. It's being accurately cared for or judged.

Alisa [00:22:44] Right. Being unappreciated, the opposite would be feeling very acknowledged and appreciated in value.

Chris [00:22:50] So we put together about 30 of these that are the negative and the positive that usually go together

Alisa [00:22:56] Yeah, we'll put the link to that in the show.

Chris [00:22:57] Notes, too. What's cool about that is I think what we have found in our research with couples is always the same ones tend to crop up for you. If the conflict's about children, if the conflict is about parents, if the conflict about money, or the conflict is about dishes, you tend to feel the same things, like, it's unfair, I feel misjudged, and I feel out of control like you're bossing me, okay? Well, you know, when it comes to money and marriage, we all want clarity and confidence, right? And especially unity with spouses, right. I think Lisa, that's why we get to work personally with Colby Gilmore of Blue Trust.

Alisa [00:23:45] That's right. Colby Gilmore, along with other Blue Trust certified wealth strategists, offers personalized, biblically centered financial planning and investment management services, no matter what your income level is.

Chris [00:23:59] Lisa say that title twice, blue trust, certified well strategist. That's a tough, sure. I could. I know. So they put, they do put clients best interest first and they don't sell financial products. I love that about them.

Alisa [00:24:11] Me too, and you know what, we highly recommend Colby Gilmore and Blue Trust for anyone looking for both financial unity with your spouse and opportunities to increase your wealth and your generosity.

Chris [00:24:23] Yeah, so if you guys want to check out ronblue.com or reach out to Colby Gilmore at colby.gilmore at ron blue.com that's colby dot gilmore at rong blue dot com i think you guys will be glad you did And then what's so cool about this, the insight I think that has helped so many couples in this area is to recognize that what is the opposite is oftentimes what I desire and need the most, right? So now if I know that when I tell you, Lise, you shouldn't spend this extra money that you have on this thing and it makes you feel controlled, powerless. Ms. Steads and Ms. George. Then it's a good moment for me to go, wait a minute, what do I know about my wife? Is she really somebody that is out of control and needs to be corralled? Is she somebody that spins without thinking? Because I feel that way, and oftentimes it's there. But what do know about you? And that's where it takes, all right, tell me about what you're feeling in this. And if you say, I just, I feel like you're. Judging me like I haven't thought about this and that and that when you're bossing me and trying to control what I spanned It makes me feel like you don't trust me that you think I'm only self that I'm selfish

Alisa [00:25:57] That's interesting. Yeah, and can I point out too? That's what we call a gentle startup when you when When you do that as opposed to going right, you know for the jugular you're irresponsible. You're overspending You're selfish. You don't think about anybody but yourself. That's a harsh startup The gentle startup would be you know least whenever we spin past our budget I think I really start to feel a little worried about the bottom line like that we're being irresponsible with being able to save our money the way we should and pay our bills. I'm worried that we won't have enough to, you know, at the end of the month. And I feel a little like that's unfair. Like I've been willing to watch what I'm spending, but it seems like you haven't been willing. So that's a much gentler startup. You're voicing a valid complaint that hey you overspit the budget And that's a valid complaint. That's a fact, right? But you did it gently. And this is the antidote to criticism, right. We talked about criticism. The antidote is a gentle startup using an I statement, right, I feel worried. I feel a little insecure. I feel like we're being irresponsible. I feel that's unfair because I'm watching what I spend. It seems like you're not. And so, and then you give the positive need. What would I like to see happen? What do I need to see happened?

Chris [00:27:30] And even before you get that positive need, one of the cool things that I think you could do during a time of conflict is to hear the other person express those emotions, help them put them into certain words and categories. So what you're saying is you feel that this is unfair. You feel like I'm misjudging you. So you paraphrase it and repeat it back? And I don't see the other person go. Yeah, I guess that's really what I'm feeling. Okay, that takes a little bit of gymnastics. It takes a bit of time to get to where I can take off all my kind of angry, criticism, negative things and go, all right, let me hear what you're saying. Is this what you really are thinking? Did I get that right? Just the process of being heard in many of these times can be very powerful.

Alisa [00:28:17] Yeah, and I think you make a really great point of that need to to pull yourself out of that set my needs my desires My point of view to the side and let me really Listen so I can understand your perspective and empathize with it validate it and empathize it And that is so hard to do when you are in the heat of the moment. It's like I am so mad I'm so angry. I'm, so hurt all I want to do is show you why you're wrong and why I'm right In that moment, sometimes you're flooded, you mentioned flooded, right? Your heart rate's going up, your body temperature's going. Sometimes to be able to do what you just said, Chris, sometimes, you have to call a timeout. And you just have to, because physiologically, we can't listen. Physiologically, biologically, we can listen well when we are flooded.

Chris [00:29:14] Yeah, and so it could be really hopeful. I remember calling one in 2018 that I still haven't called back, right? I mean, yeah, no. And so that's a jokingly way of saying you call a timeout. It doesn't mean you get a time out for a year or more. You even, yeah. Maybe a day, you know, maybe, but most of the time it couldn't just be 20 minutes.

Alisa [00:29:36] A moment that shows physiologically to slow down and for your heart rate to come down and you to get back to a point of homeostasis, a point where you can hear and process this in a helpful, healthy way, takes at least 20 minutes.

Chris [00:29:52] Yeah, and it varies for a lot of people, but 20 minutes ought to be for many. Some could calm down a little bit quicker, but research is showing, yeah, it's going to be at least 20 minutes.

Alisa [00:30:01] And during that 20 minutes is not the time to rehearse and rehash the argument. It's not the the time just sit there and go, oh man, I really should have said this. I wish this would have been my great comeback, right? But that's a time to invite the Holy Spirit in, invite the Lord in. And James one night, and for James said, be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry. And that's when I pray and I just say, Lord, I am angry. I feel hurt. I don't want to listen. I can't put myself, you know, in his shoes. I'm having a hard time being willing to see it from his perspective because I'm hurt. And I'm angry. But Lord, I know that that's your will. And so Romans 8 says, if you give the Holy Spirit control of your mind. Well, first of all, if the flesh controls your mind, it's going to lead to death. The death of our relationship, our friendship, our overall well-being of our relationships. If the Holy Spirit controls your mind, it leads to life in peace. And so during that pausing time, that's where we invite the Holy spirit in and say, Holy Spirit, when I give you control of my mind and my heart right now, because I'm gonna mess this up. So you'll wanna give that to you. And then Lord, I need you to help me be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to get angry. Because I know in Philippians 2.13, One of my other favorite verses says, for the Lord is at work in you, giving you the desire to do His will and the power to do the things that please Him. So if it's His will that I be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to get angry, He will help me. The question is, am I willing to pause and cooperate?

Chris [00:31:54] With his holispy. Yeah. And like you said, it's not easy during time of conflict. Oftentimes at that moment, you know, it was like, fine, I just, you know, and you can take a time out and then depart with the one last shot, you know? And I think some people that do that, you know, you're like, oh gosh, you know, they walk away throwing down the remote and, you know, throwing their keys. He's split in the moment.

Speaker 6 [00:32:18] Yeah.

Chris [00:32:19] And I think that's the slow to get angry, like, hold on, I need to back away because I'm about, because I'm not listening really well, man, I can't hear a word you're saying to me.

Speaker 6 [00:32:29] To say that.

Chris [00:32:30] Yeah, no, and so to do that in that way could be really positive. I can't hear you. I need to back away. So healthy conflict would be that in which somebody takes care of their physiologically that flooding, that emotional bum, bum, boom, bum right that's happening. It's learning to be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow, to get angry. It's taking the perspective of the other person going, all right, you first. I need to hear And let's talk about that one. It's better to look out for the interests. This one is really hard, right, in Philippians too. Yeah, do not, you know, look out for your own interests, but you know but also for the interest of others. Not only look out your own. It's gonna be impossible not to look out for my heart, what I want, what feel. But I think in a time of conflict, it's really good to, and almost advantageous for you, for your listening, for your heart to go, I wanna hear you first, tell me what's going on, what's happening with you. It really then does allow you to begin to see the world, the situation, the conflict. So let's say Vince Vaughn said, all right, so you hold on here, hold on, hold up. Give me five minutes, I'm gonna walk out here and I'll come right back, all right? Hold on. Comes back and says, hey... Can you tell me what, I mean, I heard you, you know, something with the dishes in the house, it makes you feel, can you just tell me what you're feeling right now? Right, what's happening with you, right? I know you're upset and hopefully she's calmed down enough to say, and probably she can then answer more rationally and say, well, when the house is a mess. When there's, it just makes me feel like it's not done. I'll worry. Or control. Yeah, or I'll worried about it all night. And I just, and then, okay, so it makes you feel this. And then, can you tell me, you know, like a little bit of, you now, why does it bother you just because it makes feel like you're not, you know. Like.

Alisa [00:34:36] Like you don't measure up, yeah, that you're not good enough as a wife, or yeah, if you're a good wife, you're a good mother, you do it this way. And if that's not happening, then, and it may be totally illogical. It's like, I know that's true, but that's how it makes me feel.

Chris [00:34:58] And I think probably at least when you start a conflict with the goal of hearing the other person, being quick to listen. And, you know, the, of course, hopefully both of you can, can do this.

Alisa [00:35:14] I'd be mutual.

Chris [00:35:15] Yeah, because sometimes you go, all right, let me listen to you and you share and I get it. Now, you ready to hear me? And they're like, no, I think I'm right. And you're like all right. Well, I guess we got to get to a point where let's just assume both people can at least attempt this, right? Some might need a little bit more time to identify their emotions. You know, I'd think for you, I'd call the time out, let's say. You did 20 minutes later. You're like I need to go away and think about.

Alisa [00:35:41] Yeah, I actually needed that list, and when somebody showed us that list and we did some work on our own with that, that was really helpful for me because I'm not very insightful. I know something's wrong that I can't really quite identify it. So actually looking at that list in the definitions of the emotions was super helpful for me, and it might be for other people.

Chris [00:36:05] I think for you, too, for those that are trying this for the first time or recognizing, yeah, okay, I need to do this, it could take 24 hours. It could take 12 hours after looking at this. I think, for you what I've seen is now you really don't need the list all that much and it's within 20 minutes. You can start to go, this is kind of the buttons that get pushed for me a lot here. You can be able to talk about buttons getting pushed And

Alisa [00:36:32] And I think that next step, once you've paraphrased it, you've repeated back quite a, hear you sing, and you really listen to understand, you reflect their tone, not just their words right, and that the next key to this really being healthy and helpful is validation. Is that you validate the other person's perspective. So.

Chris [00:36:56] I could have said, okay, so what I hear you saying is this makes you feel this way, you know, fill in the proper words whenever the dishes aren't done. I could see that. It would make you feel anxious. It makes you fell like you don't measure up. And it makes you like you're kind of a failure and I guess that really sucks. I don't want to make you fell that way just by not doing the dishes or telling you not to do that. And I didn't see why you would feel that.

Alisa [00:37:25] That's absolutely valid and you may not agree with the person, but you want to validate the right to their perspective

Chris [00:37:33] Yeah. And I think that's great. So now we have a number of things you can do for healthy conflict, right? We've already talked about work on the, the emotional, that flooding that comes in by, by slowing it down, taking a timeout, right. The, the, watching the harsh startup being quick to listen.

Alisa [00:37:49] Use them that I statement.

Chris [00:37:51] And I statements and identifying the emotions that we feel and labeling them.

Alisa [00:37:56] And then another big one, we talked about contempt and how corrosive, like of the four horsemen, that one's the most corrosive. And the antidote to that one is building and creating an environment of appreciation and affirmation throughout your day-to-day, not just in that moment, but throughout Have your day-to-day that you notice. Where the other person is winning, things that they're doing well, things that you admire, you value, you appreciate, and you call it out. And when you do that on a regular basis, then what that does is it fills what they call their love bank, right? It fills your love bank. It fills the other persons love bank like those words of affirmation, of acknowledgement, of appreciation, but to deposit in the relational banks so that when you have conflict... That's gonna make a withdrawal. And if you haven't built up enough account, just like a bank account, and all you have are withdraws, negativity, negativity going on, conflict, that's gonna bankrupt your relationship. So to counteract the corrosiveness of the contempt, then you just practice building an environment of appreciation and affirmation.

Chris [00:39:15] And doesn't that leave full circle then that one of the best ways to fill a love bank with appreciation is through the process of gratitude and throughout the day, practice one thing. So if you're in conflict, when you're not in conflict maybe the person's not there. Maybe you're, is to think through, I, what do I value about this person? Especially if it's a spouse, you can probably have a pretty long list. What attracted me to them? Well, they're humorous. They're really funny, you know. He loves, I love when he gets excited playing video games. Let's suppose you're Jennifer Aniston, and you're like, all right, so I was feeling like he's lazy and a slob, and he doesn't wanna do anything, and he does appreciate me. You know, she could stop and go, man, you know, the next day go, man, I just love the way he works hard for our family. I love the ways he interacts with people. I love how funny and social he is around people.

Alisa [00:40:12] And I love Amy Gordon is a researcher and she one time said that when it comes to gratitude for your partner that or for anyone for that matter is That you recognize not only that hey, I Appreciate you. I'm grad grateful for you. Not only because you take the trash out But because you know, I hate taking the trash down and so you do it And so, it's like a step beyond that. Not only do you take it out, but you take it out simply because you know I hate doing it. And so it's like that extra cherry on top that you recognize and you call it out and you express it. It's one thing to be grateful, to feel grateful, but it's not effective unless you actually articulate it and express it to the other person and that you do it regularly throughout the day.

Chris [00:41:06] Yeah, someone said that not expressing gratitude is like giving somebody a present, but not opening it, right, or something like that. I think it's that. You wrap the present. You don't give it. Oh, yeah. Maybe you wrap the president, but you give it to them. Well, I think then we've covered a lot here. It gives people a lot to work on, Lee. Some final thoughts that you might have. You could see that this healthy conflict, you know, it can be used as insight into who we are, what's really going on, help me understand you, your heart better. God uses these things to sharpen us as iron sharpens iron, so don't run away from conflict. Right. And then other final thoughts.

Alisa [00:41:52] Yeah, I would say probably the end is the repair. And that a really important part of the healthy conflict is the Repair. And sometimes that can be an apology. It can be appropriate use of humor, right? Things like that. And so apology would be for you really own what you did. And the best part is if you both take responsibility for at least part. Of the conflict. Even if your part is only 10% and the other person is 90%, if you can at least be willing to own that 10%, it makes it so much easier for the other person to own their part of it, right?

Chris [00:42:36] Yeah, so let's say in the clip one last time if he if a person was able to settle down to all these things And then and then uh the character played by ben spon was able To say Okay. Look you're right. I I was just sitting here, you know wanting to relax but uh, I own that you know, I I really you did a lot of work here and You you set up everything and you got this done The least I could do is get in there and help you, right? I mean, that's. And so I'm sorry that I, you know, didn't. Now, again, I feel like him relaxing is normal, him wanting to do the dishes in the morning is normal. But what you said is that repair is saying, yep, I'm gonna own part of this, that I could serve you better, even though I don't think it's right, or I don't think it is appropriate time to do it. But you just go, you what, I can own part of this that this made you feel this way, and I don't want you to feel this. So that's

Alisa [00:43:35] So that apology, yeah, so we call the apology the nine magic words, right? I'm sorry, I was wrong, please forgive me. I'm Sorry, I threw the remote down. That was childish. I really wish I wouldn't have done that. I apologize. Will you please forgive for that, right. And for her part, wow, I'm, sorry, I just flew off the handle like that. I wish I would have said that a little bit more gently and in a different way, and I apologize. I'm sorry. Will you please forgive me?

Chris [00:44:09] Yeah and then you have the makings right there of a repair that begins to strengthen the relationship using those things and this is where conflict is used for you and to a greater degree. I now know your heart a little bit more, I'm now a little more aware and it's a relationship building actually.

Alisa [00:44:35] Yeah, in all kinds of relationships. And in fact, I recently had to do this with one of our grandkids, right? We were on vacation, and one of the grandkids misbehaved, and I really called him out on it. And probably a little more harshly than I wished that I would have. And it really hurt his feelings. And I saw him just crumble. And I immediately knew I had messed up. And so, you know, I had to go gather myself and go through those steps of, Lord, search me, oh God, you help me to be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to get angry. And so I had go and draw that child to me. And we sat on the steps and I put him on my lap. And you said, man, Gigi, I messed up. I said that more harshly than I meant to. And I shouldn't have done that. That wasn't right. Will you please forgive me? And bless his heart. He just wracked his little arms around my neck and we just sat there on the steps and we just hugged. And he told me, he said, he's five years old. He goes, that wasn't very fun, Gigi. And you know, I wanted to give it because it was so cute. But it really pierced my heart. And I just, and I wanted to validate that, right? And say, you know what? I can imagine that wasn't fun. I wouldn't like it if somebody got on to me that harshly too. And so will you please forgive me?" And he said, yes. And we hugged and I just said, I love you so much. And he says, I loved you too, Gigi. And so that was the repair of it. And so, you know, this can work at work. It works with your neighbors. It works for your kids. And so important as a mom and dad to practice that as adults because that's where your Learn to Manage conflict to regulate their emotions is by watching and listening how we do sure right and helping them Put a label on those emotions so that they're learning it. Yes, sir

Chris [00:46:43] I love in that story how you felt immediately after you.

Alisa [00:46:48] Oh, man.

Chris [00:46:49] You just feel that, does that ever happen? Like, you just know you did something wrong, right?

Alisa [00:46:53] It's like those words went out and you want to bring them back and you just can't.

Chris [00:46:57] Yeah. And I also feel like that's kind of the cool part about doing these steps is you're able to see less and less of those, but when you do have those mess-ups, you're able to repair quickly.

Alisa [00:47:10] Yeah, it builds reconnection, it build trust, and it builds security back into the relationship.

Chris [00:47:17] Well, it's awesome. That's good things. I would pause, Lisa, and if I was a listener, I'd go back and listen to some of these things that you said because they're powerful mic drop moments of how to do and move from this cycle of conflict that we find ourselves in and that immediately explode to really having conflict work for you and be a relationship strengthener. And growth. And growth, right. Hey, it was fun to join. You guys as well on these kinds of things. Lisa, it's mostly fun to join you and do this together. Yep, way to go, bam. And I hope you guys enjoy it. And check us out, cmr.biola.edu. You can find all kinds of cool things there. And hit the like button. Do what else you wish you do. Thumbs up.

Alisa [00:48:04] Subscribe to whatever. Well, yeah, you know what to do.

Chris [00:48:07] So we'll see you next time. Don't make us do some bad conflict on you. Okay, good conflict. All right, see you guys. Bye guys.

Mandy [00:48:17] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.