Sexpectations in Marriage with Guests Shaunti Feldhahn & Brian Goins

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In this episode, Chris and Alisa Grace explore the complex and often misunderstood topic of expectations in marital intimacy. They welcome special guests Shaunti Feldhahn, an award-winning author and social researcher, and Brian Goins, Senior Director of Strategic Projects at FamilyLife. Together, they delve into the dynamics of initiating and receptive desire, the impact of communication, and practical ways couples can foster understanding and intimacy.
 

Key Discussion Points:

• The common question of "how often?" and why there's no universal answer.
• The importance of understanding different desire types: initiating, receptive, and resistant.
• How unspoken expectations and lack of communication can lead to frustration and disappointment.
• Practical advice for navigating differences in desire and building stronger connections through communication and empathy.
• Insights from Shaunti and Brian's work, including data-driven strategies for healthy conversations about intimacy.

Resources Mentioned:

• "Secrets of Sex & Marriage" by Shaunti Feldhahn and Dr. Michael Sytsma – A book offering eight surprising insights to improve marital intimacy. Learn more and purchase.
• Married with Benefits Podcast – Discussions on intimacy, communication, and expectations in marriage. Listen here.
• FamilyLife’s Instagram – instagram.com/familylifeinsta.
• Shaunti Feldhahn’s Instagram – instagram.com/shauntifeldhahn.
• Axis.org – Tools and resources for parents to have conversations about technology, relationships, and more. Visit Axis.

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: youtube.com/@biola-cmr

Join the Conversation:

• Subscribe to The Art of Relationships Podcast to never miss an episode.
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• Share this episode with someone who could benefit from these relationship insights.
• Sign up for weekly updates and resources from the Center for Marriage and Relationships! Subscribe here.

About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

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Mandy [00:00:00] Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

 

Chris [00:00:11] Alisa Today on the Art and Relationships podcast, we have some special guests joining us. Of course, you want to introduce our guests.

 

Alisa [00:00:18] Yes, we sure do. All the way. Hailing from Atlanta, Georgia, we have Shante Felton. Shante is are is a she did her graduate work at Harvard and she was an analyst on Wall Street. Can you believe that? And then she just happened to become like an award winning, world renowned author and social research. And so it's actually we use her material all the time at our conferences and our pre-marital counseling. And so she's broken. She's just written some incredible books that have been groundbreaking. What are several of them? I think you have over 3 million books sold. Is that right, Shante?

 

Shaunti [00:01:02] Yeah, it's crazy. I really that is just a God thing. I don't know how that happened.

 

Chris [00:01:06] And what percent do you get from each of those 3 million? It's got to be a dollar.

 

Shaunti [00:01:13] Or two and a half for a donation.

 

Brian [00:01:15] Is not enough.

 

Shaunti [00:01:17] I don't know. Well, and then anything I do get goes into the research for the next book. It's a.

 

Alisa [00:01:22] Civil. That's right.

 

Chris [00:01:23] It's that cycle, isn't it? Yeah.

 

Alisa [00:01:25] Yeah. And then our our next our additional guest there is Brian Goins. We've known Brian for about five years now because he's kind our boss. Yeah, he he is the.

 

Brian [00:01:38] Don't you forget it.

 

Alisa [00:01:40] You won't let us, will you? This hour we know he is the director of strategic projects now senior director strategic projects at Family Life. And he also helps lead the weekend to remember speaker team, which we're a part of it. And that's where we got to know.

 

Chris [00:01:56] Yeah, we met him at McDonald's right by L.A.X. I remember.

 

Brian [00:01:59] That's right.

 

Alisa [00:01:59] Our interview.

 

Chris [00:02:01] Yeah. He said, well, we think to the.

 

Brian [00:02:03] Best places on the weekend. Remember speaking to him you get the best, best restaurants. Anything you want from the kids menu.

 

Shaunti [00:02:10] You guys.

 

Chris [00:02:11] Well, Brian, you've also produced an amazing documentary. I think that a lot of our audience will be interested in hearing about. And that's called the brain, the heart in the world, right? It's a series exploring the dangers of pornography. And Brian, I know that has impacted and helped a lot of people as well. And so thank you both for joining us. And you guys hosts an amazing podcast. Tell us about your podcast real quick.

 

Brian [00:02:36] Yeah, So it's it's based with family life. Family Life podcast network. It's called Married With Benefits. Now, make sure when you search for that, it's family. Life's married with that there's another rogue one out there that we got to get our lawyers on because we copyrighted the name. So they need to they need the cease and desist. But because the other one, you're going to get a totally different podcast. A It is. It's one where we really want to we want to get back to the joys of what God intended when he said, I do, that he really intended this for human flourishing and for us to flourish as couples. And so we started it. Gosh, I don't know how long it's been, Chauncy five, six years ago. And so it's been it's one of these things where we have an idea of of just going from a questions perspective or some basic questions that husbands ask or questions that every wife asks what are questions that couples ask about intimacy? And then what are the small little things that you can do of highly happy couples? And so we just take topics. It's more seasonal in nature than it is kind of an ongoing podcast. And so when I get when I when I'm at conferences and I hear a lot of different questions being asked, I just kind of put a group together and I call the expert Shante and say, Shorty, help us answer some of these things. And we just have a good time putting it together. It's been a fun and fun ride.

 

Chris [00:03:55] Shorty, when you were in your college years, did you ever dreamed that you'd have a podcast on expectations? Was that was that your goal in life?

 

Shaunti [00:04:05] Until I did the research on this book, I literally couldn't say the word from the stage, like I'd be talking about whatever, and then I'd be like, and yeah.

 

Brian [00:04:16] Well.

 

Shaunti [00:04:17] Any time Jeff and I would do marriage conferences, I was always reluctant to talk about it. But yeah, no, this was this was definitely not on the radar. And honestly, it wasn't until, you know, I just do tons of interviews with people. I do tons of research and yeah, this topic comes up a lot. So it was really clear that this needed to be one of the projects.

 

Chris [00:04:40] So yeah. And when you, when you guys get on and do this program and you're live and you're talking about things like this, you use questions that you've received, obviously during your research interviews, Brian, you have small groups that you oftentimes. Do research with and talk with. You both have broad exposure nationwide. What? What comes to mind? If you had to sum up, what's the biggest question that you're getting that they want or their biggest worries and concerns? What are they? What do they always ask?

 

Brian [00:05:18] Well, that's good. John, do you want to I know that you you did a ton of the research on it. And so why don't you start? I obviously have some ideas, but I'd love to hear you say to that.

 

Shaunti [00:05:26] I will tell you the number one question. There you go. That everybody asks, they kind of come up with how often? How often?

 

Brian [00:05:35] Yeah. Yeah.

 

Shaunti [00:05:38] That is totally the number one question.

 

Chris [00:05:41] Yeah. No, they're not asking you personally. They're asking more broadly.

 

Shaunti [00:05:45] What what should we do? And the here's the ironic thing. Like when we started, when I say we, I mean my husband Jeff and I, when we started the research for this, we're like, there is no way in the world that we can do this project on our own. Like, like if we got something just slightly wrong, like you could do damage. Yeah. In people's lives and in their marriages. And so we started working with Dr. Michael Sites, my who's this renowned sex therapist? He's trained most of the Christian sex therapist out there. And, and and we knew we needed a coauthor. And so we actually have to we're like, we constantly get this question.

 

Brian [00:06:26] Yeah, yeah.

 

Shaunti [00:06:28] How often should we? He's like, yeah, that's going to be number one. And he's like, Under no circumstances should you ever answer that question.

 

Chris [00:06:37] Yeah? Why did you say that? What's the reason?

 

Shaunti [00:06:40] Well, his point, and it's a really, really important one, is that every marriage is different. Yeah, right. Like, every couple has different issues. The analogy that he used was a really good one. He was like, Look, if you were to come up to me and ask me a question that you think there's an answer to because people think there's an answer to the how often should you have sex question If like if you come up to me and say, should we have a pet? Should we be like, I don't know, do you travel a lot? Are you allergic because you have the like, I don't know, Like it's all dependent on the variables in your life and your relationship. And he's like, it's kind of like that. Like, yeah, I don't know what the good answer is for you. Do you have medical issues? You know, what's your work schedule is like, you have kids running around. That's your relationship. Like.

 

Brian [00:07:34] Are you allergic?

 

Brian [00:07:35] Right? You know.

 

Brian [00:07:37] All kinds of.

 

Brian [00:07:38] Issues.

 

Chris [00:07:39] Thank you. That's right. Where my mind when.

 

Shaunti [00:07:42] I say I'm sure. I'm sure.

 

Chris [00:07:44] You know.

 

Brian [00:07:45] But I think it just to to jump on that because I think it's there's I think the thing that we just don't realize and I know you guys deal with so many couples and students that all have that right. When I was coming in, when I was in college or right before I got married, I remember having my own expectations about what that number would be or could be or I mean, I honestly thought that the sex shop when I got married was to be open 24 seven. Yes, that was my sex date. And if you were to ask me how often, like. Probably more than anybody else. I mean, it was all about the number.

 

Alisa [00:08:20] No. One. And so tired.

 

Brian [00:08:22] Yeah. Then. Yeah. Well, you realize I realized real quickly that man, it was more like banker's hours. It wasn't 24 seven. It was, you know, brick and mortar banking. You know, it was closed a lot more times and it was open. It seemed like, you know, the sometimes the teller had a headache, All kinds of issues that you come in contact with. And and I think the thing that I that I really appreciate about the book that that Dr. Sizemore and Shorty and Jeff did, is it really helped give couples an opportunity to do what they don't typically do that is have a conversation about this versus an expectation. Yeah, So we have all these expectations, but our culture hasn't trained us how to have a conversation. And so you have you have so many those expectations and you're not trained on how to talk about it. So then what you're left with is disappointment. Yeah, depression, you know, and you don't really know where to go. Yeah. You know, like go to talk about it.

 

Alisa [00:09:15] I think that I love that phrase that says expectations without communication leads to frustration. And I think that's the biggie when it comes to this area, to areas that couples seem to have the hardest time having conversations about money and sex. And so we find that when we have this session at our weekend to Remember conferences, it's well attended, it's a really well attended. And most of the questions that we get in the panel time I found especially this last time, most of the questions had to do with sex. And so I think the question that you mentioned, Sandy, you know, you know, how many times should you you know. Keyword is should verses do?

 

Shaunti [00:10:02] Yeah. Well, I mean. And now that we know that there's no one right answer. One of the things that we often do, though, like if if Jeff and I are doing a marriage event, right, like doing a marriage conference or a date night or whatever, like often the pastor will be like, Can you talk about this topic? Like if you make sure you have this is like, Yes. And the thing is, everybody is understandably curious about what else is happening out there, because the this is an issue that's so sacred and so private. We don't even talk about it with our closest friends. Like literally the only input most of us have on this topic is from what you heard in the locker room when you were 16 or what you see in the movies, neither of which are the best sources of good information. And so I do think it is helpful for people to know that there is a another one of the questions people ask is what's normal like? And there's a wide range of normal. And so that's encouraging for people like when you look at the we have a pie chart that we put up on the screen of, you know, how often, you know, what percentage of couples are really not having much intimacy in their life and a few times a month and a few times a week and like, you know, 3 or 4 times a week. And it's it's really interesting because the pie chart is basically like a quarter, a quarter, A quarter, A quarter. Like there's no bell curve. Wide array of.

 

Chris [00:11:41] Normal. You know, something that reminds me of the quarter? Quarter, quarter. Reminds me a little bit, Brian, you. You helped produce a video that is shown throughout the country. It's shown at almost every marriage conference. And I just think it really can help and does help a lot of people. You used a little bit of chanties work, I would imagine, Brian, But when you put that video together, you described, I think there were three different categories of of people when it comes to sex drive, when it comes to desire. And Brian, why don't you just explain that right quick? Because it's I think it's one of the best videos.

 

Alisa [00:12:23] It was eye opening.

 

Chris [00:12:24] It really was.

 

Brian [00:12:25] Well, I got to give I got to credit to her credit. Do I mean, Dr. Siteman and Shorty Phelan were the ones to really give us and help us write the script for it. And so, Jonty, feel free to jump in, but.

 

Shaunti [00:12:36] I know you you're the one who put it into something very understandable. You got.

 

Brian [00:12:42] It. Really? Because it it it shows it talks about how we have really three there's three different desire types. You know, you have different levels of desire, but you also have different types like just how you think about and process. When does sex come into the mind when went because I thought Jen would think the exact same way as I did my wife, Jen. And so I thought, well, I'm I would think that she's if I'm thinking about sex, she's probably thinking about sex. And then I get married and realize that, no, it wasn't on her mind nearly as often as it was on my mind. And I thought, well, wait, something's wrong.

 

Chris [00:13:14] Brian Right. So, so just disappointing for me when I realized she was not think I used to say 37 seconds. Well, why not? Why don't you think I don't get it right? Find me something.

 

Shaunti [00:13:28] Wrong with me.

 

Brian [00:13:29] And I know. I know. And when we tried to get the three, you know, you have initiating desire, which is probably sounds like more like you and me, Chris, You have more of a you have initiating desire. You have a second receptive desire. I was I was about to say resistant. I was like, no, that's the last you have initiating desire. You have receptive desire where there has to be some type of prompt, some type of putting into the mood is what what we have. Right? There's just like, there's got to be some way to help me get warmed up towards this idea. And then you have resistant desire, which was super helpful to hear from Dr. Sizemore and Shanti on this, that really only 7% of of spouses report having resistant desire, which means I'm not interested and I don't even want to think about it and would be very and there's all kinds of reasons for that could be whether it's medical, whether it's some type of emotional issue that's going on that's worth figuring out. Why is there resistant desire. But for most couples, they've got either initiating or receptive. And here is the big kicker. What's the stat, Shanti, is that 8,085% are non stop.

 

Shaunti [00:14:37] Nine Yeah.

 

Brian [00:14:38] 9,090%.

 

Chris [00:14:40] And so tell me how that I mean that was probably a quick revelation, Brian, both for you and shortly.

 

Brian [00:14:49] It. It's it's huge. Chanty You know, when you think that basically nine out of ten couples don't have the same desire type.

 

Shaunti [00:14:55] Well, it's more here's the thing that was like, I mean, this just made my head spin. Like I we have been studying these things for 20 years and. In in some of the early research for the research we did on men and women, like some of this had come out there. This has been in the research literature amongst academics for like 40 years or something. But what I hadn't really put together until this project was that for people with initiating and receptive desire, which tend to be more likely men and women in that order, men tend to be more likely initiating women tend to be more likely receptive, although there's plenty of exceptions. But honestly, the thing that just got me was that the desire, the feeling of desire, the physiology of it, happens in the reverse order. I hadn't put that together where I'm one who has initiating desire. It's kind of like what you see in Hollywood, right? Like you look across the room, the guy in the girl, the eyes meet and there's a spark and they feel this hunger. And pretty soon they're kissing and their clothes are off and they're in bed. Right? And so it's like they feel this sense of desire and they do something about it. I hadn't put together that receptive desire. The physiology works in the reverse order. So the person with receptive desire, desire literally does not feel that sense of desire. If they decide they're making an intellectual decision to decide to get engaged with their spouse, knowing that, you know, it'll be good as they go, it's but it's it's this is not coercion. This is literally just a decision. And as the physiology starts getting stimulated and by the way, this is all assuming that the relationship is positive, that it's not this is not an abuse of. Right. Then this is just like a normal average couple where it's viewed positively as the physiology starts getting stimulated, then the sense of desire arises that maybe their partner felt ten minutes ago. And so what we always tell people, if you are an initiating desire person married to a receptive desire person, the key is to recognize that your spouse is making a decision to engage based on how they feel about you in the relationship, the rest of you.

 

Chris [00:17:29] That's a powerful.

 

Shaunti [00:17:30] Insight and it's this mindblowing eye opening thing for a lot of people to realize, it's not about just, you need to help with the chores and you need to do this. All those things are good. But unless you're like developing not just the environment, but also like flirting and like putting little thoughts in somebodies mind, giving them anticipation, they're just not going to be thinking about it.

 

Alisa [00:17:59] You know, it makes me think of one thing you hear of in our culture when people want to support or defend the idea of premarital sex. Is that is the argument. Well, we need to see if we're sexually compatible. We just need to make sure we're sexually compatible. And something that Julie Slattery has said before is that, of course, we're not compatible. We're not sexually compatible. And what you're saying right there, Chandi, is exactly I mean, that 90% of.

 

Shaunti [00:18:34] 90% are.

 

Alisa [00:18:35] Not sexually compatible. But that doesn't mean that it spells the doom of your sexual intimacy part of your relationship. You can actually learn how to navigate that in a really healthy, giving, loving way if you understand the basis of it that you're talking about.

 

Brian [00:18:56] Yeah. And I think I think that that's a big mind shift, isn't it? Because it starts it helps us to start thinking going, what am I? I approach sex is what am I going to get out of it? What am I? There was a very much of a there's a consumer mindset I think most of us have when it comes to sex. There's this expectation that I'm going to get joy, I'm going to get, and I'm going to get it out of it the way I want it, the way I naturally think about it, and to shift it to what do I need to give so that my partner enjoys sex is a radically different mind mind. My mind shifts and it really goes back to what Scripture says. You know, Philippians has got one of the best verses on sex when it talks about it. Philippians Chapter two Don't merely look out for your own interests, but look out for the interests of others. I wish I had. Somebody had said that that's a great verse about sex. To actually become a detective of my wife's needs more than a dictator of mine. And all too often I the reason why I'm frustrated going back to what you said, Eliza, is because I come in with these expectations that I'm expecting you to meet. And when you don't meet or when you're not at the same level, I get frustrated and I don't change my mind, You know, I don't question my mind. I question. In your mind? I question your desire. I question your desire level.

 

Chris [00:20:12] Well, you guys have both done an amazing service to just just by not only uncovering that Shanti in your research, but getting it out there. And one of the things we're going to hold up here for our listeners and viewers of your book, and I think this is one of the best places for them to find it, right? It's the secrets. Well, that what leads to the exact title.

 

Alisa [00:20:35] Secrets of Sex and Marriage eight Surprises that Make all the difficulty.

 

Chris [00:20:40] Is that where you would send them to at this point if they wanted to know more about the desire? Well, send them to a video, too, by the way. But yeah.

 

Shaunti [00:20:49] You know, Brian made such a good point earlier about the fact that really the. The antidote. An anecdote and an antidote. Thank you.

 

Brian [00:21:00] Antidote.

 

Shaunti [00:21:01] Thank you. The antidote for some of the problems that people have, the expectations that are just wonky is communication, right? Like it's just talking about it. And so, yeah, we recommend we wrote the book actually in order to help people be able to read a little bit and talk about it and read a little bit and talk about it. Like the whole book is written in such a way that, I mean, it's a normal book. You can just read it, but it's it's really designed to help you. Can I get over the hump of This is awkward to talk about. I don't know where to start. I don't know what to ask because it really is like, wow, is this true of you? This is how I feel. Is this how you feel? Like it just. It helps lower the bar a bit.

 

Chris [00:21:49] Yeah, Yeah.

 

Brian [00:21:50] I know you still. I'm sorry, Crystal, me interrupt you, but it's tough assessment, don't you, on figuring out your desired time, which I think is a great place to start. Great.

 

Shaunti [00:21:59] Yeah. Yeah. We we. If you actually. If you go to Secrets of sex and marriage.com which is the.

 

Brian [00:22:07] Not a porn site.

 

Shaunti [00:22:08] Yeah not a promise doesn't back it's got all the like it's got actually some really good referral resources and stuff it's great but yeah there's an assessment there that can help them go this is me, this is you. Wow. Let's talk about what that means.

 

Chris [00:22:23] Yeah.

 

Brian [00:22:24] And I think I think the other thing that I think would be helpful, I think the book is fantastic because it has all the stats there and it's short, short chapters. They really are surprising secrets. The assessments are awesome because it gives you an activity to talk about because it's almost like that's a third party thing. So now, because this is tough for couples, even if we say have a conversation, there are couples out there, I would imagine listening going, Well, we can't do that right now anyway. We don't know how to do that. That's our problem. Yeah. So I don't model that for you. I think the thing that I loved about our season now is season three of Married with Benefits is that you could listen to it as a couple, either separately, like while you're working out or when you're driving somewhere, you know, and it's like, okay, we can listen to somebody and then we can just respond. You know, they're giving us the words to talk where we had Question And of every, every session, I believe. And, and so it just allows you to go, okay, how can I process this with my partner?

 

Shaunti [00:23:16] You know, Brian, I listen to somebody, I cannot remember where I was, but I was I think Jeff and I were speaking at an event somewhere and someone came up who had listened to the season, the season about basically expectations. Right on Mary with benefits. I can't remember what the title of the season was, but they had listen to it with their spouse driving like an A 10 or 12 or 15 hour like long drive. And she said it was hilarious because like they would get like 100 yards and stop it and go, Really?

 

Brian [00:23:51] I don't know how exactly.

 

Shaunti [00:23:54] But Brian just said, Is that like you really? And then they started again and then they go another section of the highway and stop it.

 

Brian [00:24:00] Right?

 

Brian [00:24:02] That's not what I thought you were going to know.

 

Chris [00:24:04] Me either. You know.

 

Brian [00:24:06] Either.

 

Shaunti [00:24:07] Yeah. I was thinking that's for your brain, so. Right.

 

Brian [00:24:10] All right. I'm initiating desire. Sorry. That's me.

 

Chris [00:24:13] That's so funny, Brian. You know the differences that that happened here. And let's just say the lack of communication and embarrassment. Let's go deep for just maybe one minute. You studied in the seminary. You have a you know, that background. What is it that comes to mind? What why is there embarrassment? I mean, this is is a big shock to you. You mentioned briefly that this is a very sacred, almost moment, that spiritual we would we would know from some of the New Testament writers that this was and the Old Testament, that this models the relationship that that God has with himself in the Trinity. I mean, it goes really deep theologically. So, Brian, any take on that that says I think couples need to learn or hear that, I don't know if any thoughts come to mind, but I like I just wonder, is that something that happened at the fall where all of a sudden the shame comes in and embarrassment of something that wasn't to be embarrassing? I mean, can we just chalk it up to the fall or what?

 

Brian [00:25:27] Well, I think I don't think that's a petty answer at all, Chris. I think there is a because of what you just said, there is a sacredness to what this is to represent as a physical representation and a manifestation of every spiritual reality that sex represents Christ, love for the church. And I don't think it's any coincidence that the first thing you see Satan attacking in relationships throughout the Book of Genesis happens to be in the sexual arena. I mean, you see sex outside of marriage creating all kinds of devastation. And I can't remember who said it first. I've heard and Wilson say it. I'm sure it's been said by others in the past that, you know, before marriage, Satan will do everything he can to get you in bed after marriage. You will do everything he can to keep you out of bed.

 

Chris [00:26:11] You know, it's great thought know.

 

Brian [00:26:12] There's a covenant bonding that takes place physiologically, but also I think theologically when a couple is bonding together. And so the more that he could do from a spiritual side to keep the shame, to keep the this feeling awkwardness like I think he rejoices when couples don't have conversations about that so we can't this minute. Is that I think in our culture we tend to think it's not a big deal. No, I think that is a big deal. But then I think the other thing is just modeling and confidence. Like for me, it's I don't have when I don't have confidence in an area as a man, I don't tend to move. I don't tend to I don't tend to go outside of my comfort zone. And it takes a lot, especially, I think, for guys to come out of their comfort zone and really try to unpack this area that they think that's been modeled for them on TV and in songs and in media. This should just be easy. So when it's not easy and I don't know how you work, as do I don't know how Jen's working or thinking, I don't. I don't really want to move into that arena. And so I just tend to get passive as a guy. That's. That's me starting. You might have other insights on this.

 

Shaunti [00:27:18] Now, I think you said it really well. I think it's I think it's true. We just saw, you know, some numbers. I can't help myself. I'm sorry to.

 

Alisa [00:27:27] Break it on. We know.

 

Shaunti [00:27:28] That. I can't help it.

 

Chris [00:27:30] I'm a social psychologist, so you're good.

 

Shaunti [00:27:33] But we in in the sexual arena, 73% of couples can't talk about it. And I mean, it's that's a pretty big deal. And by the way, we saw in the surveys, these are big, by the way. These are big nationally representative surveys. Right. So we paid a lot of money for. But one of the things that we saw that was actually really instructive was when you asked people their opinion of how they talk about these things, like I think the actual the number was like 50% said, you know, yeah, we're fine, you know. And then like two questions later, they would say things like, well, no, but I don't want to talk about I don't want to tell them what I want because, you know, I'm embarrassed. I'm like, Well, I'm sorry you don't fit into the you know, you talk about it well, category. And and so it really is this this area is so dramatically help just by giving people the permission to say yeah it's awkward but if you talk about a little bit guess what it gets gets less awkward And we're not talking about like body parts and whatever. We're talking about the inner stuff. What's going on?

 

Brian [00:28:54] Yeah.

 

Shaunti [00:28:54] Yeah. Underneath the surface. And that's a lot easier to talk about.

 

Chris [00:28:59] Yeah. And that whole notion of can't talk about it, they just. It's almost as if you like Brian said, Brian, you, you. You almost don't want to move into that because there's a lack of confidence. Is it, is it a lack of confidence? Well, no, it is a lack of confidence. What else is there? In addition, it's it to me the awkwardness is fascinating. Go ahead.

 

Brian [00:29:25] No, I was going to say, I think that's part of it. Certainly not the only thing. There could be shame. There could be a sense of the past that just kind of continues to come into the equation. I mean, I think there's probably all kinds of different reasons, but it's I think what I love about what Cianci said is that 73% of people or couples don't know how to do this, so you're not alone. So if you feel that, if anything, you should feel encouragement that you're not alone. Sorry that you. That's okay. I'm like seeing these bright flashes. I'm not sure if like what's going on or.

 

Chris [00:30:00] A little bit of a lightning storm.

 

Brian [00:30:01] In your face.

 

Brian [00:30:02] Girl partner.

 

Chris [00:30:03] We did not pay the bill. Hey, talk about needing to get some payment here for our bills. No. So go ahead. Keep going.

 

Brian [00:30:14] Yes, I think that encourages me to go. Okay, you're not alone. Only 27% of the people actually have healthy conversations when it comes to this in their in their in their marriage. So, all right. Where do we start? I think that's the thing. And that's the thing that I really appreciate about Shanti and Dr. Simon's work is that it it really is. The little conversations go a long way, you know? And in fact, Strozzi tell the story about Dr. Sites and about the couple. That was the couple that comes to their office and how he gets them to talk about the number and remember what I'm talking about. Mean.

 

Shaunti [00:30:49] You know, for each one.

 

Brian [00:30:51] Each, each, each one, you know, he comes in and they're frustrated because they're not having as much frequency of sex. And so it turns to the guy and he goes, Well, okay, well, how how often do you want to have sex? And he's like, I don't know, maybe 2 or 3 times a week.

 

Shaunti [00:31:04] He says one. He said 1 to 2.

 

Brian [00:31:06] He said 1 to 2. And then and one of the girls said.

 

Shaunti [00:31:08] 2 to 3.

 

Brian [00:31:09] He said 2 to 3. And he's like, I don't see a lot of difference between 2 and 3.

 

Shaunti [00:31:15] Two and two, right?

 

Brian [00:31:16] Yeah. Two. Yeah. I mean they both went off like their one number off if, if that. And at sometime some weeks there's two you know, they're both the same. It's just that because they don't talk about it and both couple looked at each other don't really like expectations in silence.

 

Shaunti [00:31:32] I thought one of the best lines from that couple and apparently like everybody else who sits in Dr. Mike's office. Right. But I thought one of the best lines was the husband turned to the wife and said, Well, if we both want to have sex twice a week, why aren't we? And Mike goes, Yes, that's the right answer. Because usually it's why aren't you?

 

Brian [00:31:58] Yes.

 

Shaunti [00:32:00] As opposed to why aren't we? There's something that's getting in the way of what both of us want. So what is that or what are those things? And putting yourself kind of proverbially, proverbially on the same side of the table, you know, they're trying to figure something out rather than adversarial and screw the people pointing at the other person.

 

Brian [00:32:20] Yeah. And I was going to say spouses. Yeah, I was going to say on that, Chris, we you're talking about why I think that's a huge reason why is it's your problem. Yeah it's not Yeah yeah couples we start going it's our problem or how do I how am I the problem in this like when I start with questions then there's a there's a sense of, okay, we can work on this now. We could, but if it's always adversarial and we're looking at each other on you're the problem. You're you don't have a conversation with somebody, you feel like you're an enemy. With.

 

Chris [00:32:49] Brian that's full circle, right back to Philippians, right? Two, three, four. It's this horrible divide that keeps us saying, you, you, it's not me versus I'm going to stop this whole notion of my interests and start thinking. And that's the reestablishment of a we in in in the relationship.

 

Alisa [00:33:12] And, you know, I think that the opposite could also I could see happening to that instead of saying it's you you you I don't want to talk about it because I'm afraid as we talk, it's going to be me, me, me. And that makes me feel very vulnerable and that makes me feel very bad.

 

Chris [00:33:33] For her personal life experiences whatsoever. She said.

 

Alisa [00:33:37] Hypothetically.

 

Chris [00:33:38] Hypothetically.

 

Alisa [00:33:39] That that I really think that that could be a big part of it is yeah. Is that, you know, I feel a lot of shame. I feel embarrassment. I feel inadequate. Yeah, but you were saying that men can feel or they don't feel competent or confident in this area. I think we as women, you know, we have so many issues about our bodies, about measuring up to what we see in culture and TV on Instagram with all the filters, the porn, where people a lot of people are getting their information about what sex should be like, how it should be, what I should do, what I should like as a woman. And I find that I don't. And if we talk about it, that's just going to be a big red flag that's pointing at me and I'm not sure I'm ready to handle that.

 

Shaunti [00:34:30] I can I can help every man out there understand this, what you just said. Actually, yes. Because one of the things that we hear and I'm sure you guys hear it, too, for weekend, remember, which is such an amazing event, but any marriage conference, who are the people who are signing up for it and dragging their spouse versus the ones being drugged? Yeah, it's usually the wife dragging the husband. Now, there's plenty of exceptions to that, which is awesome, but that's generally it. And why is that? When we ask the men, here's what they say. Yeah, great. Another thing where I'm going to need to be fixed, right? This is this is we're going to spend a weekend with you. Fix. Me because I'm not doing it right. I'm broken. And so they they're reluctant to go. Understandably. Which, by the way, is what I love about Weekender, remember, is like that at all. It's a very, very much liberating and both sides and all that. But it's that for all the men out there who've ever felt that, you know, probably what your wife feels about this area like great an area you know, I just I can't do anything right. I need to be fixed. Yeah. And, you know, I'm broken. We all know it. We see it in Hollywood. I don't look anything like that. I don't handle it like that. I don't desire sex in that way. I'm clearly broken. And both people think the person with receptive desire is broken. The person with receptive desire feels that and the spouse kind of thinks they are, too. And so it's completely liberating when you are talking about it and you learn this knowledge and you're like, my gosh, nobody's broken this. Yeah, that's three away. I hate it.

 

Alisa [00:36:13] Yeah, that's really freeing to have that perspective.

 

Chris [00:36:21] Well, you know, when it comes to money and marriage, we all want clarity and confidence. Right? And especially unity with spouses. Right. I think, Lisa, that's why we get to work personally with Colby Gilmore of of Blue. Trust.

 

Alisa [00:36:36] That's right. Colby Gilmore, along with other Blue Trust certified wealth strategist, offers personalized, biblically centered financial planning and investment management services. No matter what your income level.

 

Chris [00:36:50] Is, at least to see that title twice. Blue Trust Certified. Well strategist that's a tough.

 

Alisa [00:36:55] I'm not sure I could I know.

 

Chris [00:36:56] So they put do put clients best interests first and they don't sell financial products. I love that about them.

 

Alisa [00:37:02] Me too. And you know what? We highly recommend Colby Gilmore and Blue Trust. For anyone looking for both financial unity with your spouse and opportunities to increase your wealth and your generosity.

 

Chris [00:37:14] So if you guys want to check out Ron blue.com or reach out to Colby Gilmore at Colby Dot Gilmore at Ron blue.com that's Colby Dot Gilmore at Ron blue.com. I think you guys will be glad you did. I want to ask to this question. It's related and transition. Just just real briefly, to those that aren't married, those that are receiving their information now from much more varied sources than any of the four of us ever did. You know, growing up, could you imagine what it would have been like to have a cell phone in high school that had images right at your fingertips?

 

Alisa [00:38:06] In junior high.

 

Chris [00:38:07] An element or in junior high elementary school now? Yeah, you're exactly right. And you know, Brian, you guys also have another video that explains this amazing phenomenon, the supernormal stimulus that Shante, I know you guys probably have talked about or at least I know Brian, you did in your pornography work that supernormal stimulus being the butterfly that has the fake butterfly with these huge wings, all female, all the males are attracted to the fake butterfly with the very big wings and ignore the live butterflies that are the female. And it just shows what the power, I believe of stimulus is. And now that power resides with very young kids in our very homes, sometimes in our bedroom, in their bedrooms, while the parents are doing something else. What let's let's talk about that. You both have kids that are in their young teens. Middle 20s. We do to man. I'm worried a little bit about the impact this is having, by the way, not just on men, but there are more and more women who are finding something chanty in the middle of this that is either a little bit more emotionally connected. I don't know what the difference is. So you to what let's talk a little bit about do you worry for this generation, the access that they have and its impact on marriages? I know it's maybe a rhetorical question.

 

Brian [00:39:52] Jaunty.

 

Shaunti [00:39:52] Man, you just open a can of worms, you know? Yes, of course. Everybody is and rightfully should be worried about this. This social media access to any image you want in private. Temptations constantly. You know, the classic thing is you used to have to go to a store to buy those magazines. You know, and now it's every five seconds if you want to look at it. And the reality is we're in a new world. It's not like you can put this genie back into the bottle. Right. This is this is not going to be something as much as we wish it was. This is not going to be something that is ever going to be undone. This is how it's going to be. And I wish it wasn't the case, but, you know, just sort of dealing with the world as it is are one of the things that I notice as a parent is that my efforts for years now have been to help my kids navigate and myself. Right. Like everybody navigate this new reality rather than, it shouldn't be that way. I, like everybody, is going to have those temptations. To say otherwise is kind of like ignoring the reality. And so what does it mean to help a teenage boy? What does it mean to help him when he's young, when he's 4 or 5, six years old? What does it mean when he's in middle school? What does it mean when he's in high school? What does it mean when he gets text messages? Slightly hypothetical, not hypothetical. When he gets messages from a girl saying, hey, send me some pictures. Right. Because that's powerful. Like, that's a powerful feeling for a young man. Some woman wants to see me and and to go, okay, first of all, what are the likelihood that that's actually a girl as opposed to like somebody on the other side of the world is a guy who's trying to do something? What's what is it just from a mine perspective. But then what is it that it's triggering in me that I want to want to look at those things? And here's a young woman in this picture. This is a child of God who's probably in some way feeling trapped in this life of showing herself in this way. And is there a way that you can see her like that, like those kinds of conversations? Those are not things that just come up when somebody turns 18 or whatever. Those are parental conversations all the way through, at least in my opinion.

 

Chris [00:42:51] You know, Australia. Bryan, just to intercede one little point, just recently passed a ban that said I don't feel as familiar. Just this week that said there will be no they they want to block access to all social media for anybody under the age of 16. Is that have you guys heard this? Yeah.

 

Brian [00:43:09] Yeah, I have not. That is news to me, Chris. Yeah.

 

Chris [00:43:13] Yeah. So? So what? So Australia is trying this and I guess the question or is that going to work? Is that a fact? If our worlds are so tied into that in, in, in good ways, right? I mean, Sean, do you talk about opening up this can of worms? There's so much good about technology. Nobody is ever saying, let's just get rid of the phones. Let's just, you know, completely, you know, take sabbaticals away from all that which is can actually work. But what you guys are both implying is there has to be a lot of parental involvement in this because otherwise culture is just going to push the opposite message. I don't know if that's going to work, by the way. I don't.

 

Shaunti [00:43:54] Either. I, I will tell you as an analyst, I'll tell you my big like the big, obvious, gaping, huge hole that you can dry a Humvee through. Right. I mean, is is the the law that's passed, if it survives like the courts or whatever it is they do, the law basically says that it's up to the parents to enforce it. God, to anybody else. And it's something like seven I think it's about 70% of the parents in the country support this law. Yep. Which is good. But that means 30% don't. And so if you have a third of the kids in school on their phone and social media because their parents aren't enforcing it. How well is that and how long is that going to last? Like today? Like, I hate to be cynical, but I just. Well, we got to have a different we have to have a different coping skills and and personal management skills that are built because. Yeah.

 

Brian [00:44:57] Anyway, it's it's hard enough having. Having a real conversation with your kid, right? I mean, just it's just difficult, especially about this issue. I mean, immediately talk about not feeling confident and and and then on top of that, just you're tired. You're more tired as an adult, especially a teen kids. You're just you're getting more tired. And I'm just finding that man, the phone is a great panacea for both of you. Yup. Yep. And and it can become easy to train yourself to not have conversations because you're just like, you know, it is peaceful when we're both watching screens and we're having fights. I want to chill. I want to relax. They seem to be fine. And and I think that I think that's the the underlying of this is it really takes a lot of courage and initiative to go, okay, we're going to have screens, tablets in our home, you know, where we lock them away for a certain amount of time and they're going to go off 9:00 or whatever it might be. And you've got to come up with all of those kind of rules and then you've got to actually enforce them. Because if you're not consistent, like what chant is this? Like you do it 30% of time. Well, you'll find that 30% turns off 50% real quick. And then, yeah, we're just not being consistent. And kids don't respect when they're when they see inconsistency. And so that's why I think that this conversation, we have a great opportunity that the the world has given us with these cell phones and with digital and with media to engage the conversation earlier, you know, and and so I like what axis I don't know if anybody in your audience if they have either young kids or teenagers, you know, look at Access the Phys.org, they have great materials on. How do you have a great conversation about cell phone and about just having good boundaries and why and what's good about technology? Because ultimately, we want to hear people say what's good about sex? We want we still want to keep that positive image of it's not all bad. It's actually what the reason why you have that hunger to show those pictures is because there's something inside of you that's a powerful force, but that powerful force, it needs a great place to get released and in marriage. And that seems unfair and harsh and hard. But but we can talk about why that is and talk about your journey and what you've experienced. And so I think it's a great opportunity for parents to to move into those conversations and to start helping model what that conversation looks like. But it's really difficult.

 

Alisa [00:47:26] It is difficult.

 

Brian [00:47:27] It's hard.

 

Alisa [00:47:28] And, you know, it's not it's not like that's the only thing that we need to be talking with our kids about to teach them how to navigate, right? We're teaching them how to navigate alcohol or teaching them how to navigate integrity and not cheating in class on their tests. We're teaching them integrity in their friendships. And how do you navigate when you feel left out or when somebody's spreading rumors about you? And so but for some reason, this tends to be an area that we leave out because we don't feel comfortable. And so I can talk to you all day long about lying, but it's going to be hard to talk with you about sex. So, yeah, so it's a it's it's not unheard in for parents. There's this is just one more area, one more. I mean, parenting is not for the week right.

 

Chris [00:48:19] Now, too. You know that trend line. Have you ever seen a two year old with the cell phone? I mean, they know how to scroll and move. I mean, these young babies, you know, that you would think they just they actually I go to our two year old granddaughter for advice on how to get an app downloaded, you know, And so she grabs a.

 

Alisa [00:48:41] Friendly how do I use.

 

Brian [00:48:42] This. Yeah.

 

Chris [00:48:43] And that trend line can be either encouraging or discouraging like you both mentioned. And when it comes to sex, then that message that, let's say now these teens and college students that we're all, you know, loving and want to, you know, encourage what what advice would you give? And I'll start with just this little piece. One of the things we encourage, a guy named Dr. Tim Miller, we co teach a class with him and his wife, Norine and others. And one of the things we started was a tech fast and and we set boundaries around what that means like you know if you could other do other fasts as well in that regard from, you know, friend groups or from social media. And it doesn't have to be a complete ban. It might just be, you know, I'm not going to go on tech talk anymore. I'm not going to go, you know, on to Instagram. But it has when we get these college students writing back, the impact on them is pretty profound because they're recognizing the amount of time they're spending on this and, you know, was consuming a lot of their emotional reserves. It was consuming a lot of their social capital because they were more. Or invested in that. So thoughts that you guys have on navigating things like a tech fast or on providing, you know, boundaries and directions, do you guys have other thoughts that you're like, Man, I wish 18 to 25 year old people who are navigating this world of sex from the culture and then the anticipation of that in marriage. What what advice do you have for someone who's out there going, okay, I know it's going to be awkward marriage, but what about now?

 

Brian [00:50:32] Well, I'll start. And on this strategy, I have great some great wisdom too. But I think one thing is it's easy for me to my mind to go, man, don't go towards don't don't get addicted to the exaggerations that you're going to see in media and all about. It's easy to kind of go there. But I want to flip the pendulum back to the other side, and that is because there's so much exaggerated views going back to that super stimulus of sex that can ultimately set you up for frustration. And I would tell my own story. I mean, I think that's one thing is it's really important for the older generation to be super honest and transparent with what they're what they dealt with, to train, what transparency could look like in the future. So I think that's a big that's a big deal is just be honest with your own whatever your journey was, be honest in telling it. But then I would say, hey, be detectives during that 18 to 25 year old range. Talk to people that have healthy relationships that you can see and in the media. And even when you just say that, talk to people about healthy relationships. It's amazing how how you already know what that looks like. You don't have to give qualifiers or criteria or it's like, I know that when I know because I've been to my oldest campus and I've seen students hanging around with you guys and how they respect you too. And people like in the class, they know that they can get in a room and have a lunch with with Chris and Lisa and have a great conversation because they see a relationship and it models a sense of health and it's like, okay, think of five healthy couples that you know of and make it a point over the next 3 to 4 years or next year to have a lunch with them, you know, every couple of months, take them over to their house, have coffee and ask them some of those questions, you know, about about intimacy, about healthy relationships. What does that look like? What do I need to prepare myself with? There's so much wisdom that's just out there that kids could lap up. And I wish I had been given that mantra when I was 18 to 20. Yeah.

 

Chris [00:52:25] Well, it's not only a mantra here, it's a requirement. We make them interview two married couples as students. They have to go find and and they could choose a parent, you know, or a relative. Most of them don't. But they also find that more freeing, you know, not to go talk to a parent, interview them. But, Brian, that's not just a mantra. It really is a requirement here that that our students in our course and there's at least 200 every semester that join this that say that have to go interview a married couple. And boy I tell you, they get some really fascinating insights from Brian. I love.

 

Alisa [00:53:00] That. And the other thing we do in that class, it's a it's a 15 week class, upper level juniors and seniors. And they can take it for an elective for psych or for communication. And we have two psych professors. We have two Bible professors, and then sometimes another two professors and their spouses. So they're six on our teaching team, sometimes their communication Bible and psych. And so we're looking at all kinds of issues of relationships through those three different lenses. So it's a very integrated class. 15 weeks really. It's an intensive relationship discipleship course is how we approach it. And one of the things that we do is when we have the lecture every every week we have a lecture from psychology one from Bible, looking at that particular issue. And then after we have the two lectures, we open it up with a panel of the teaching team up there. We have a panel for Q&A, and then we have a place where the students can submit questions anonymously. And so we have the actual two parter on God's design for sexual intimacy. And then what does he really mean by one flesh and really flesh out for them that God's design for this area so much more than just the physical, but it's also the emotional one flesh, the relational one, flesh the social one flesh the financial one flesh, the spiritual one flesh and real. And look at the the robustness of that. And then to open it up for, you know, the the section or the lecture that we have where we look at pornography, we spend one whole evening, three hours delving into the psychological aspects of porn, the biblical aspect.

 

Chris [00:54:50] Stealing the videos from family life tissue.

 

Brian [00:54:53] They come out.

 

Alisa [00:54:53] There and then it's it's fascinating but. When you open it up for those anonymous questions that they can submit, it gets pretty real, pretty darn quick then. But that's okay. We tell them, you know what? This is the time for you to ask these kind of questions. You have six seasoned, godly, well-equipped, well-trained, married couples. Really smart. We are smart, good looking assets. And and so they do. And that's one of the things that comes back in the evaluations is that they said, my gosh, this is so nice to have somebody who's credibility and and faith walk with God. We feel like we can really trust and ask really real questions and get thoughtful, meaningful, correct, you know, ways of thinking about it. We don't always want to tell them what to think, but we want to help them process and think through it wisely so they can wrestle through that with the Lord and come to a really godly, well-informed conclusion. So we love that class. That's awesome. So when you come in, speaking of yeah, I was.

 

Chris [00:56:03] Going to say.

 

Alisa [00:56:03] Like we're going to also tap you to come and speak to our class that the.

 

Brian [00:56:08] I thought you meant we could just come. Listen, I was gonna go.

 

Alisa [00:56:10] Listen, I know you won't get off that easy.

 

Chris [00:56:13] No, you don't get off that easy. You both are now publicly invited on social media of all things, to come and do that. And we could think of no better expert speakers. Shanti, your work, We refer to it, I would say almost every other lecture. Brian We show all your videos and other things and talk about family life, super helpful resources.

 

Alisa [00:56:34] Okay. So as we wrap up, are you ready for a lightning round? This is just going to be some questions right off the top of your head. What comes to your mind first and then And just like a 15, 22nd answer, 30 at the most. You ready? Okay. Number one, Brian, what's the funniest thing you ever heard from couples about their sex life at their conferences?

 

Brian [00:56:55] Gosh.

 

Shaunti [00:56:57] That's not a lightning rod.

 

Chris [00:57:01] What's the most interesting? Amazing, funny.

 

Brian [00:57:04] Awkward, awkward.

 

Brian [00:57:07] I think. Gosh, you got me.

 

Chris [00:57:09] Okay, let's go to Sean. Tell me.

 

Shaunti [00:57:10] Wait. I have one. Okay, okay, go ahead. I want.

 

Brian [00:57:13] Them to be.

 

Shaunti [00:57:14] Okay. So Jeff and I were doing a date night and talking about this, and we showed the the pie chart of how often people have sex and said, you know, this percent, this percent, this percent daily or more what it was, I think 4% of couples have sex daily or more. And this couple on the front row looked at each other and high.

 

Brian [00:57:33] 5 or 4%.

 

Brian [00:57:40] Are, well.

 

Chris [00:57:40] Yeah, we're good. I'll give you my Brian while you're thinking at our very last conference, I don't even remember what town we were in for family life. We did this conference, all right. Yeah. We asked them, Do you guys have any words that you used, like in front of the kids? A code word for sex? And somebody jumped up, said spaghetti. And apparently, for whatever reason, we never figured it out. But when they say, hey, would you like to go make some spaghetti, it was code. And so now I'm telling you for the rest of that weekend, everybody was having some good daddy and Italian food. So I told him mine was fettuccine Alfredo is our code word right now. Is Lisa do you have anything that you know?

 

Alisa [00:58:22] What is that? And it's that same question when we were talking about code words. Yeah. Those four ingredients of a great sex. Yeah. Sometimes playful code words. And we were doing this at a conference at a church and one couple raised their hands and their code word was boom, boom.

 

Brian [00:58:39] Boom, boom, boom.

 

Alisa [00:58:40] Boom, boom, boom. And I was like, we were wrong.

 

Brian [00:58:43] But we know this, this this wasn't somebody in the crowd. We were out with some of the speakers one night having dinner on Saturday night after after the talk, and we just started asking each other, okay, do you guys have a a code word or some type of a physical sign that you give to each other? And and one of the one of the other speakers are six of us. One of the other speakers guys. Yeah, we do. And I've already done it to my husband at dinner. And it.

 

Brian [00:59:08] Was like I was.

 

Brian [00:59:11] Wondering, like wrapping up, ready to go.

 

Alisa [00:59:13] The Who wants dessert? We got to go.

 

Chris [00:59:16] Give you the bill.

 

Brian [00:59:16] What is it? What is it that's in that study?

 

Alisa [00:59:21] Okay. When the last word on our lightning round, what is your best piece of advice when it comes to expectations? What do you want to close with? What do you want them to know? What's your big takeaway?

 

Shaunti [00:59:33] My most important one is to be curious. And just don't assume that you understand. You need to ask. You need to talk about it.

 

Chris [00:59:45] Man That's a good word. Shanti. The US. That's great.

 

Alisa [00:59:48] Curious. Brian.

 

Brian [00:59:50] That that's. I mean, I was really going to say move from the from being a dictator. A dictator just demanding what you want out of sex stops. Viewing it through your eyes and start seeing it through their eyes and going, how can I how can I meet their needs? How can I look at sex and go, how do I meet their needs more than I think about my dictator?

 

Shaunti [01:00:09] Detective, I think you said earlier. Yeah.

 

Chris [01:00:12] That's a great title. I think for me at least, the idea of a detective really impacted us. And really what it took was trying to get down to the emotion of you. And that required a lot of listening by me. And there's this phrase that says, it's better to be understanding than understood, and it's better to be interested than interesting. And I remember just saying to Alisa, okay, I'm going to just be quiet for like ten, 20, 30 minutes. Just talk. Tell me what goes on in your mind. And that's the day I learned that she was in neutral. She was receptive, and it changed the way she goes. Chris, I don't it's not like I think sex is wonderful. I just don't think about it every four minutes like it's like you do. And I say, At least that's not true. It's not every four. It's like seven or a handful more. But it really was eye opening. So that would be my advice, is to seek to be understanding and get at the heart and really try and say, okay, can I just hear your heart right now? That that's what I say? Yeah.

 

Alisa [01:01:18] Yeah. I guess mine would be. If this is the area that's really tough for you, that you've struggled in it for a while now, don't give up on it. There are people out there that have specific training in this area of sexual intimacy, sexual dysfunction, sexual woundedness, marriage and family therapist that they actually go to school and have additional training to be certified in this particular area. Help is out there. Please, please, please don't put it off. Don't wait. Go today. You can you Google some places online, check with some of your pastoral resources. Oftentimes they will have refer are referrals that they can point you to. And definitely that was going to be my other one is go pick up this book to day where we're going to link to it in the show notes. We're going to link to your podcast.

 

Chris [01:02:16] Yeah, tell your podcast one more time. So how they find it.

 

Brian [01:02:19] It's it's family lives married with benefits and that this this one that we're talking about was season three. It was couples every couple of questions every couples asking about intimacy.

 

Chris [01:02:29] Okay so and they could find it on Spotify. They can find it at family anywhere, anywhere they.

 

Alisa [01:02:35] Want to on Spotify.

 

Chris [01:02:36] Lisa, does that.

 

Shaunti [01:02:37] Make sure you get the right married with more.

 

Brian [01:02:39] Than regular.

 

Shaunti [01:02:41] Family life one.

 

Chris [01:02:42] And make.

 

Brian [01:02:42] Sure life.

 

Chris [01:02:43] One? Yeah, that's right.

 

Alisa [01:02:44] So we're going to wrap up today. Brian Shanta thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Forward we know that you're super busy. You have a thousand things pulling on your time, your attention, so we really appreciate that you worked us into your schedule today and we're better because you were here today.

 

Chris [01:03:02] Yeah. And thank you guys too for your pastimes come into by all. We look forward to getting guys back out to California and.

 

Alisa [01:03:11] And so far, our viewers, our listeners, we want to say thank you for joining us again. Just take a moment to hit that like button. Give us five stars. We would really love to have that review on there. Let us know how the podcast is impacting you, how it's impacted your life. What are some takeaways? We would love to hear it. And then as we say goodbye, we just want to say that's a wrap for this episode. Check the show notes for links and we will see you next time on The Art of Relationships. Bye bye.

 

Mandy [01:03:41] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on the Art of Relationships.