When You Don't Know Who You Are Anymore with Guests Arianna Molloy and Tim Muehlhoff

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In this episode, Chris Grace explores the complexities of navigating identity and calling, especially in the context of work and relationships with guests Arianna Molloy and Tim Muehlhoff. They discuss how a calling is not just about individual fulfillment but deeply tied to our relationship with God and community. Their conversation touches on understanding work as a calling, avoiding burnout, setting boundaries, and finding rest in God. They provide practical insights and tips for anyone feeling overwhelmed by life's demands. Whether you're managing relationships with coworkers, family, or friends, this episode offers valuable advice to help you cultivate a sustainable work-life balance.

Resources Mentioned:

• Healthy Calling: From Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work by Dr. Arianna Molloy – A guide to understanding calling, preventing burnout, and finding meaning in work. Visit Arianna Molloy's website for more resources. Click here to buy her book on Amazon. 
• Sacred Pathways by Gary Thomas – Explores how individuals connect with God uniquely, offering insights for incorporating rest and worship into daily life. Click here to purchase on Amazon. 

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: youtube.com/@biola-cmr

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

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Mandy [00:00:00] Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

 

Chris [00:00:11] Hey. Welcome to another Art to Relationships podcast. Today we my ex cohost who held out for more money. Tell me how he did. So we gave him this package. We said how about a million deferred and what did Tim say? No, they're going to match that. I said a million deferred. He goes, I got a better deal. And then he bolts. So welcome to the Relationship podcast with my ex Co. What was your name again? Tim Your Tim you have and Tim. We've got to do some fun things together. This podcast.

 

Tim [00:00:49] We did it. I think we did it for four years.

 

Chris [00:00:51] Yeah, I think so too.

 

Tim [00:00:52] And now we speak at FamilyLife Marriage Conferences all over the country. Yeah. And we did some great conferences like on Spiritual Battle and Marriage.

 

Chris [00:01:00] Remember that, right? Yeah, those are fun. So, Tim, I think we've worked together for maybe 20 years. I can't remember it was back when you had hair.

 

Tim [00:01:08] Back a long time ago and we're in a marriage group together, which is really fun. And I love the fact that you and Elise practice the very things that you talk about in this podcast. And we've been in that marriage group for now, man, what.

 

Chris [00:01:21] Like maybe double digit years?

 

Tim [00:01:23] I think maybe like 13 years. 12, 13 years.

 

Chris [00:01:25] Yeah, it sounds really fun. Have Yeah, it is.

 

Tim [00:01:28] Fun to be.

 

Chris [00:01:28] Back and we have a great guest today on this podcast. So Tim, why don't you introduce Dr. Arianna Malloy and tell us a little bit about her?

 

Tim [00:01:37] Well, the fun thing about being able to do this podcast, you get to reunite with old friends, but also new friends. Yeah, but not so new.

 

Arianna [00:01:45] 12 years we've.

 

Tim [00:01:46] Known each other for 12.

 

Arianna [00:01:47] Years now.

 

Tim [00:01:49] Chris When we got Ariana to the department, it was like one of the biggest coups of ever. And she has one professor of the year. Why is this correct?

 

Arianna [00:01:59] It is correct.

 

Tim [00:02:00] And students absolutely adore him or resent her, but she's awesome. She's an associate professor. You got your Ph.D. from Denver?

 

Arianna [00:02:10] Yeah. Yeah.

 

Tim [00:02:12] This is from Colorado.

 

Arianna [00:02:13] Really an.

 

Chris [00:02:14] Out of state PhD. And I had a choice between do you Colorado State and see you Boulder.

 

Arianna [00:02:20] Yeah.

 

Chris [00:02:21] And CSU made me the best offer. They made me the only offer. And so I would have loved Denver. But anyway, that's a great look. Well, the locations. Okay, the.

 

Arianna [00:02:32] Locations of Mesa. We would go hiking in the mountains about once a month. Although I never learned how to drive in the snow, I have a very distinct memory of one time being in my car and it just was going horizontal when it's been going straight.

 

Chris [00:02:43] Yeah. And that's a scary I've had an accident I 25 in the snow when a light post fell across I-25 and all of the cars basically then ran over it and everybody had four flat tires while I swerved only got two flat tire. So we're all pulling over yelling at the next cars. And it was it was a mess. I ended up driving away because I rolled my tire down this hill all the way about four miles to a guy that was open and he fixed it again back, put on a spare, and I drove away. But Arianna So where did you come from before? Denver.

 

Arianna [00:03:23] Seattle, Washington, where I'm very used to the rain. You could I could take rain any day. The snow. I just don't know how to deal with things.

 

Chris [00:03:29] And you did your undergraduate there?

 

Arianna [00:03:30] I did. Seattle Pacific University, which was a phenomenal experience at the base of Queen Anne Hill. There's this beautiful park on Queen Anne called Kerry Park. It's a little tiny glimpse of the whole city. And then I did my master's, the University of Portland in Oregon.

 

Tim [00:03:43] Okay, So if you had to choose the climate, would you take Seattle, Denver or here?

 

Arianna [00:03:48] My gosh. Okay. Before Covid, I would have said Seattle. But actually, California won my heart during Covid because unlike most places in the United States, when it was cold, you were stuck inside. But here you could go to the beach and the park. We actually did a my husband and I did a beach and park pass in O.C. and then we got really nerdy and like raided the beaches and parks. Like on a scale of 1 to 5, we needed something to do. So I do feel like the nature in Seattle, there's something about the way the clouds and the texture of the trees and the water, the smell, even. There's something that elicits a deeper connection to the Holy Spirit.

 

Chris [00:04:25] Yeah, yeah. No, that's cool. And so you've been at the university at Baylor University for how long?

 

Arianna [00:04:29] 12 years.

 

Chris [00:04:30] 12 years. Professor of the Year award, as you said, loved by students, hated by all the other faculty in the department. Because she takes the students.

 

Tim [00:04:39] Raise your hand all the time. Say, Well, you know, doctor my said I'm like, well, I know, but here's the cool thing. And listeners you can already tell that Dr. Malloy, although she's a scholar, is just a relatable person. That's really cool. Well, I love up Iowa University is not only do we have top notch scholars, but we have scholars who really. Like part of their calling is to reach the public and not just write academic articles, which she has write international journals as well as here in the States. But she has a brand new book called Healthy Calling. From Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work. And I love the fact that you've taken your expertise and applied it to like everybody listening to this podcast. You make a really interesting point just about the prevalence of work today. You say in contemporary Western society, the average person changes jobs approximately ten times, you know, between the ages of 18 and 42. Work makes up more than a third of our adult lives. That's amazing when you think about it.

 

Arianna [00:05:43] Yeah, it's really amazing. I have to say, Tim, you were the first person to encourage me to write a book like this, so I really want to thank you for that mile. Yeah, but this is a second. Well, you know, actually, my husband, he was really kind to me and just said, Hey, if this is what you want to do, whatever it takes, we'll make we'll make time for it, which I. I really appreciate.

 

Tim [00:06:03] That we have to say. All right. We have to say this real quick. You talked about a power couple. Her husband, Alan is insane. Scholar. Yeah. I mean, how many books is that man written.

 

Arianna [00:06:14] That keep up?

 

Tim [00:06:15] I mean, you can't.

 

Arianna [00:06:15] Keep it out. It's a lot. Several years he speaks.

 

Tim [00:06:18] Up, moves on. So this is a this is a pretty amazing. Some people call me young Tim. Norm, email. Not many. Not many. Mostly us. Yeah, but.

 

Chris [00:06:29] But I think this is a great lead in to this question because not only do you and Alan have jobs, you write, but you also have a job again. Yeah.

 

Tim [00:06:41] And hobbies. And the job is.

 

Chris [00:06:43] And you have to be able to do life. And so who better to write a book about this idea about, you know, work that can lead to this amazing calling, whether it's your work or whether it's something you do on the outside, but then also the toxicity that kind of can come into play real quickly when we don't set good boundaries, especially for people that are active. I imagine you're probably a Type A, I don't know, but you just like to.

 

Arianna [00:07:08] Do live lists. Yeah.

 

Chris [00:07:11] And I think Arianna, that's why we are so excited to have you on this podcast, because when we talk about relationships, one of the things that defines your book, I believe, is even that word. You use that word a lot about how we have a caller, we have a calling, and then we have this community, these relationships, and you've had to live that. So tell us a little bit about other motivations besides Milhouse encouragement.

 

Arianna [00:07:39] Well, you know, going back even to the fact that people change jobs approximately ten times between the ages of 18 and 42, that means that when we're pursuing college and experiences, rather than being so interested in titles, we should be more concerned with skill sets and passions that we can refine and develop so that we can apply them in a lot of different ways. So enter a liberal arts Christian education. Just have to give a plug there because if you're more concerned about sharpening the tools in your tool belt, we we're learning about the tool belt generation being the newest generation to consider college. You actually want to go to college to sharpen those skill sets that can be applied in many, many spaces. And then part of that is that you're not stuck if you end up not liking your job or you lose your job. If you have a tool belt full of tools and skills and you know yourself well, you can think, okay, how else could I envision applying the calling that God has for me in a different situation?

 

Tim [00:08:39] Now, before before we jump in the toolbox, we're both communication professors, but that almost is such a broad title. You're an organizational scholar, so bring us up to speed a little bit on like what? What do you study? What classes do you teach? And then when did you get interested in this topic? Like calling in the workplace?

 

Arianna [00:08:58] Yeah. So I'm an organizational communication professor and that means that I study anything that's related to work and communication. So everyday communication in the workplace, things that happen, you know, at the watercooler or in meetings, things that impact motivation, satisfaction, burnout, which we'll talk about in a minute. But even things like what to do with conflict in the workplace or how do you manage to income versus one income households as it relates to work and personal life? And so I've always I think I've always been fascinated because my parents have been exceptional models to me about how to navigate that. Well at the dinner table when I was little, they would talk about their work and they would even talk about my work as a student as work. So I always felt sort of legitimized in the work that I did.

 

Chris [00:09:44] You tell a story sitting at that table in your book about the fact that your mom was like, My wife simply didn't have a sense of time. There's. All kind of internal clock whatsoever. And Elise is better at this. But I remember you that story. And then your dad was like, well, I'm going to be at church or wherever we're going and we're going to be five minutes early. If not, we're late. Right? And just navigating that relationally with two people that are busy and are different, right. And so people are simply different when they deal with work, when they deal with school and they deal with all these extracurriculars. And some people can handle it, some people can't. And then we oftentimes marry someone who's very unlike us. So you guys navigated that in relationships as well. I'm sure that was a great model for you.

 

Arianna [00:10:37] So my mom, if you were to imagine the combination between Mary Poppins and Maria from The Sound of Music, that's my mom. You know, she has a melodic laughter. She befriends any stranger and she does try, but she just does not have an internal clock inside of her. And my dad is the most responsible kind person who will have, you know, keys in hand waiting by the door five minutes beforehand. So, yeah, we learned to manage that. But I think this goes back to the concept of relationship as we think about calling and this is where we can get off track really fast. If we get so consumed with our calling that we forget it's actually about relationship with the caller. He is the only certain relationship.

 

Chris [00:11:19] Almost everybody understands that. But the words calling and being called you use that that great term. I love that. The caller and then the call in a nutshell, sweet version. What's a calling to you when you studied this? Some people have callings and you kind of differentiated the different kinds. Right? You have work and you have these other things that gives you passion. So in a nutshell, for anybody that's like, tell me what this calling means.

 

Arianna [00:11:46] Great. So as Christians, we have a primary calling, which is to love God and love others.

 

Chris [00:11:50] You would call that the.

 

Arianna [00:11:52] General, general calling, primary calling primary all in us, right? But that only acknowledges the grand ness of God and not the artistic nature of God. And in the artistic nature of God, He's also hard wired us with skill sets and passions that can be applied in certain parts of our life where it almost feels joyful. We're not all the time, but like, you know, most of the time. So a work calling actually has four things that make it a work calling. It's meaningful, so there's purpose behind it. You can identify a type of caller. Now, even non-Christians talk about calling all the time. In fact, I was driving down the 55 the other day and there's a hug billboard sign that says Your health is our calling. I was watching a commercial with Dodge Ram that said there's all these commercials now for Dodge. They're honest thing about how this is our calling. So we have this innate desire, a thirst to respond to that, so meaningfulness to identify a kind of caller. Third is to apply your skill set and passion. So you can't just be a fan that makes you, you know, really great cheerleader. But you have to have a skill set which requires experience. But the last thing is the linchpin. The last thing is what makes it different than a hobby, and that is that there's a positive impact on community. That's that's the third. See that we tend to forget in this individualistic culture that we we are in.

 

Chris [00:13:11] Yes. So you have you have undergraduate students both all three of us have have many more than maybe we get paid for it. We have a lot of students. They're sitting in your office and you share a story about they want to find the job, right? They they're like, what can I do to find the job? And I love some of your advice to them. What do you say when a student says, what skills, what class, What can I do to get this? Because I just you know, they're motivated financially sound by purpose. But I think you share a little bit deeper with them about there something else called the calling and how do you kind of bridge what they want? You know, I want to they want to pay their bills. They want to, you know, start a family, start a marriage, and yet they also need something to do. So. Yeah. What's your advice?

 

Arianna [00:14:03] Sure. Well, gosh, first of all, I'm just always so glad when students visit us. It's like the best thing ever. Yeah. Know it's just such a true.

 

Chris [00:14:09] On our advice.

 

Arianna [00:14:11] And so that honestly, like office hours as students is one of my favorite things when they come in. I want to learn more about what motivates them, what, what are they good at? What do they enjoy? What are they? What's their convicted heart moment where they're just like, I can't stand when this is happening or I really want to be part of this. And so I listen to that. But as it relates to work, there's actually three different approaches to work, and they're not distinct categories, but there's a job. This is the one that pays the bills. We all need that. And it's a great privilege to think about calling in work. My dad didn't end up pursuing his calling and work because his calling to be a good dad and a good husband was his priority. And so he was. He chose a job he was good at. He integrated his calling into it, but it wasn't necessarily a smooth, obvious one. So there's just a job that pays the bills. It doesn't. Necessarily include your skill set or your passion. There's not a promise of hierarchy or like moving up in the ladder. It just you're living for the weekend.

 

Tim [00:15:07] And it has dental.

 

Arianna [00:15:08] Insurance. That's right. Insurance is huge. The second one is career. And this one, there is a trajectory of like, what's your 15 year plan? And you feel this extrinsic reward. You get a corner office, you can take your family on vacation. You get to buy your first car all by yourself. Right. That's a career. And again, there's nothing wrong with that. But the calling a calling is this intrinsic reward where you're responding to the caller. You're making impact on community and you feel this deep pleasure even if you can't see the tangible outcome. So here's the deal. Research, secular and religious all agree of all the three types of qualities of approach to work. The one that's the most motivated, the most satisfied, greatest, while being able to withstand organizational change and economic shifts of all of them is the person who feels called. So you're the one they want in the room. Yeah.

 

Chris [00:16:02] And. And how do you help them find. Right. Okay. You have this, you know, 21 year old sitting there. They've got this great internship. You know, they're like the meal off kid successful. You know, they go off, you know, they get these great places to work. But but that person sitting there, here's this Do you help them to feel like, okay, you're not settling if you start here because this is common. And then you start to hear because this colleagues a journey. Yes, it's a calling is one day, you know, I'm sitting from God and all of a sudden, bam, I hear it. I go, I'm going to be the shortstop for the Dodgers, which was my calling, by the way. And then injuries derail it. But let's say I digress. But let's just. Right. So, first of all, you would, you know, advise them, hey, this is a time to figure out who you are and what that calling may be. It's a journey in a process. So it's not. So you're going to find out, I don't imagine, maybe not even until you're older as it goes along. And it could change.

 

Tim [00:17:08] Yeah. See, that's where I see this run amuck just a little bit. I love the Dallas spoiler quote. Most people have a vision for their life. They just don't want to go through the middle.

 

Arianna [00:17:15] Yes.

 

Tim [00:17:16] And I'm seeing a younger generation saying, yes, I don't want to do that because it's not my I don't feel God's pleasure. I'm not uniquely. And I'm saying, okay, yeah, but but you need a job.

 

Arianna [00:17:27] Yeah, well, calling is not an overnight Amazon package. That's the problem. So we think, I want this tomorrow, right? So I'm going to order my size and it's going to arrive tomorrow. That's not what calling is. It absolutely is a process. So what I would tell college students and what I do tell them is what are the first job foundations that will be part of giving you the equipment in your tool belt so that when you are ready to be the kind of person that could have the job, that feels like a calling. You have these previous experiences. So a young woman came to talk with me. She really felt called to be an h r o, and so she did two internships and hated both of them. And guess what? That was a success. Because when you don't like something, that tells you something.

 

Tim [00:18:09] So, God.

 

Chris [00:18:10] Tim, do you remember doing that? I remember my first one of my first internships was with the Criminally Insane on a maximum security ward. And it was it was deeper and more secure than the most strongest federal penitentiary out there. In fact, they'd even exchange prisoners. And I knew immediately, Arianna, what I didn't want to do about on the fourth day of walking in and talking to a guy who thought he was Moses, first of all. And I'm like Moses, But he was shackled. And I'm thinking, well, I don't really think I'm going to reach Moses as of this world is gone. I'm not safe either. But that was a success because it helped me at the early stage. Go You know, yeah, my empathy in this area is strong, but I'm not sure I'm gifted or I have the emotional reserves.

 

Tim [00:18:59] In This is so good about your book Arianna is I was on staff at the Campus Crusade for Christ through the senior man, which means you have that seniority on that campus. And then there's the campus director. And I love how you kind of say, let's go against cultural narratives a little bit, because you would have said to me, well, you want to be a campus director like like you want to step into the top spot. And so our director kind of went on a sabbatical ish. And so I was hated. I hated.

 

Chris [00:19:27] It.

 

Tim [00:19:27] Why all the administrative stuff that you had to do? And Chris that's so great to just step back and say, okay, check that off the list. Even though you got certain amount of strokes for being that person. And I just said that that is not my skill set, nor is it I didn't like it.

 

Chris [00:19:45] And Tim, I think it for you. I don't want to get too personal here, but you said this is nothing to do with my skill set. And therefore I think what you said was, I'm going to have to marry someone who has. Because you. I need someone who has that skill set. We call Norene. She's got my schedule. Hey, Norm was Tim's you got here? What's my schedule, by the way, today?

 

Tim [00:20:09] It's Arianna. Isn't that true that we can get caught up in this call? The status of the culture means it should be the American dream. Bigger and better, always progressing upward mobility. So how do you address that cultural backdrop that can mess us up.

 

Arianna [00:20:25] Really, really hard? And so, again, going back to a college student, I asked them some questions. Do you want to have a job that has the skill set development that you're looking into, or do you want to be part of an organizational culture that you really can get behind? Because they're not always going to be the same thing? So you could join an organizational culture but be the person that you know, brings the coffee and runs the errands. But you're part of a group of people who, when you walk in the room, you feel the electricity chances. Our doors are going to open if you stick around in that place. But the other side is true. Also. Maybe you choose a job where the company itself isn't something that gets you excited in the morning, but the things you get to do are pretty cool and that will further develop your skill set. Again, if we get so distracted with a calling to fit the thirst we have for certainty, it turns into a type of idle. Rather than focusing on the caller relationship with him, we're going to learn more about God when we have these work experience.

 

Chris [00:21:19] Expand on that a little bit. How does a calling become an idol in and you discuss this in your book. I think it's yeah, I think it's important because there are some who almost take this to what you call this extreme level, which ultimately is one of the keys to burnout or one of the ways in which you get to burnout. So kind of unpack that just briefly.

 

Arianna [00:21:40] So again, the people who feel the most excited to go to work and who like make a positive difference for everyone else are the people who feel called again, either operating in their primary calling or have really locked into that specific calling of like, Wow, I can't believe I get paid to do this. Yeah, but they're the most prone to burnout more than any other group.

 

Tim [00:22:00] Home.

 

Arianna [00:22:01] Because they feel relationally obligated, relationally compelled. It's their responsibility to respond to the caller to meet the needs they see that they can do. And if they don't do them, people could get hurt physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. I was speaking with some executives at a hospital recently, and like actual life and death, things can happen if you're not part of that. And so there's a tendency to overwork because you see the need and they're short staffed. But we know the first thing that God called holy in the Bible is rest is rest.

 

Chris [00:22:34] Yeah. And so you also mentioned that these companies, though, that have that type of employee can oftentimes fall into this. Well, this is great. This is great for my company. I got someone who will work over time. Yeah, yeah. And they get worked to death. And whether it's explicit or implicit manipulation, it's there is it is one of the problems. And how do you identify that? I guess you just say I'm working too much and people expect me to or.

 

Tim [00:23:04] And it's God's kingdom after all. I mean, we're furthering God's kingdom.

 

Arianna [00:23:08] I mean, I've had people come to me and say, you know, I'm, I'm exhausted. I'm doing too much. And I've talked to my boss. My boss said, well, we all have trials in this world. We should just pray about it. And it's like danger, danger, danger. But actually, I think going back to what do we do about it? The first thing from a communication perspective is we name it. When you name something, it's easier to see the circumference of it. How big is this? You know what's going on here. So what that's called is boundary shaming. Boundary shaming is when you're being asked to do something that's beyond the work expectations you signed up for. And if you say no, you're being seen as not being part of the team and you you sort of suffer like social capital. Yep.

 

Tim [00:23:51] And that's gets so complicated. At a Christian organization or Christian Unity University because some people see it as. This is literally furthering the Kingdom of Jesus. And other people are like, No, it's it is a job. I can say, no, I'm not saying no to Jesus. Yes, I'm saying no to what the organization has asked me to do. And the answer is I'm putting boundaries and I'm not going to cross those boundaries. It does make me less spiritual.

 

Arianna [00:24:19] And your work is not a marriage.

 

Tim [00:24:21] Well, that right on that.

 

Arianna [00:24:22] It's not a it's not a covenant. It's a commitment. Those are two different things.

 

Tim [00:24:27] Yeah, yeah.

 

Arianna [00:24:27] Yeah, yeah.

 

Chris [00:24:28] What's the word? How do you know when you start falling into that? I mean, this notion you brought up of rest, you know, sabbatical built into our lives is a type of job that allows for sabbaticals. Pastors, you know, tend to get sabbaticals. Faculty hold on to that, thankfully. But people out in the world don't, right? Oftentimes. And now you have this young person out there or spouse who's just giving it everything and that that boundary of, well, you know what, I'll take some days off versus the notion of it. But even then what it takes is I'm I still go to church and still leave this Bible study. And then we have this one go and then I go right back to work on Monday. That one right there is where there's that mixture. Seems really hard.

 

Arianna [00:25:20] Yeah. And the Sabbath shouldn't be the kitchen sink for everything you need to do that falls into the scope of rest. Again, Sabbath is a response to the caller that says, You own my time, I'm tithing, my time, I'm stepping away from the tyranny of the urgent. And so there are a lot of single parents out there or kids run out of college, sorry, adults right out of college who don't have the luxury of maybe taking a whole day off. First of all, I'd say fight for it if you can. But if you can't, if you're working three jobs just to make ends meet, really, Sabbath isn't just about physical rest. It's about mental, emotional and spiritual rest. And so at the end of the day, it's sacrificing our once our worries and work to the Lord on a regular basis so that when we start to strategize and think about the next project or task, we say, not today. Today, when I think about that, Lord, I give it to you. You are the author of Time I Trust You. I will think about it tomorrow.

 

Chris [00:26:22] Well, you know, when it comes to money and marriage, we all want clarity and confidence. Right. And especially unity with spouses. Right. I think, Lisa, that's why we get to work personally with Colby Gilmore of of Blue. Trust.

 

Speaker 5 [00:26:36] That's right. Colby Gilmore, along with other Blue Trust certified wealth strategists, offers personalized, biblically centered financial planning and investment management services. No matter what your income level.

 

Chris [00:26:50] Is, at least to see that title twice. Blue Trust Certified. Well strategist that's a tough.

 

Speaker 5 [00:26:55] No sure I could I.

 

Chris [00:26:56] Know. So they put they do put clients best interests first and they don't sell financial products. I love that about them.

 

Alisa [00:27:02] Me too. And you know what? We highly recommend Colby Gilmore and Blue Trust. For anyone looking for both financial unity with your spouse and opportunities to increase your wealth and your generosity.

 

Chris [00:27:15] So if you guys want to check out Ron blue.com or reach out to Colby Gilmore at Colby Dot Gilmore at Ron blue.com that's Colby Dot Gilmore at Ron blue.com I think you guys will be glad you did. Arianna, let me just add, Tim, I'm sorry to step on you here. I'll let you ask a question. But it reminds me of something we tell every student that comes in here that's engaged and about to get married. We tell them what is about what's called the marriage sabbatical.

 

Arianna [00:27:50] Yes.

 

Chris [00:27:51] And it comes out of Deuteronomy 24 five and it says, a man that is newly married shall not go out to the army, but shall stay home for the period of one year and make his wife happy. So it's called the marriage sabbatical. At least that's what we call it here. Which means even in the Old Testament, these Army guys would get married and they were not permitted to go out for the Army for one year in order to stay home. And I love that. So here's what we tell. You know, people that are tired, busy and about to get married, we say find something to cut out for one year while you're married. You don't live Bible studies. You don't do extra work. You find something to cut out. Friends that you know you still see, but you're not in a leadership position except for that what you absolutely have to do. And you use that time to strengthen this one year foundation in your marriage. I mean, that's like goes back 2000, 3000 hours long ago. That was written 4000 years ago.

 

Arianna [00:28:57] So love that so very much. And we actually did that. My husband and I, we actually because we're both days on the Myers-Briggs and type. So we really jammed with our calendars. And so we actually put a list of five things that we had to say yes. That we could say yes to before we said yes to the thing. And we titled it No Consideration. So we had to say, if we said no to any one of these five, then we wouldn't do it that first year of marriage. How far away is it? What else is happening the day before or the day after? You know, all of those things. And I didn't realize when I first got married how much work being newly married is. And I think in the same way, caring for the relationship with our caller is a sacred kind of work. Actually, a couple of years ago I realized I needed to have a pre game strategy for Sabbath. So the day before Sabbath, I drive down to the beach. I'm lucky enough to live close enough. I drive down for 30 minutes. I go for a walk in silence, and I just listen to the waves. I look at the trees. I ask the Holy Spirit to enter my thoughts in my heart the day before so that that final push of working hard before.

 

Chris [00:30:01] Just to.

 

Arianna [00:30:02] Get my heart right. And I. I take some time to really recalibrate what happened this week. What am I proud of? What do I regret? Is there is there anything I need to go back and follow up with before the final push of where?

 

Tim [00:30:14] my gosh, Why? Why? Why do we get on this?

 

Chris [00:30:16] I don't know why. Why did we make this? Jim and I were walking down the beach doing that one time, and all I heard was looking at the mansions on the beach saying, Why not me?

 

Tim [00:30:28] I'm like, So let me say this because you've been such a great example on Sabbath. So I find the older I get, the worse I am.

 

Chris [00:30:36] The worse on Take Sabbath.

 

Tim [00:30:38] Because you now think, you know, really I have like a productivity of maybe ten years, 15 years, whatever. Now I've got that to do list ready to go. And I could even rationalize and say that's all God inspired to do list. So I find that I'm worse at Sabbath because I feel like, man, I need to crank because the clock is ticking that you think about James, you know, coming out. You who say today or tomorrow will go to such and such. I said, Do this while you weren't guaranteed anything. So what would you say? And this is probably going become a counseling session. And do you take people.

 

Chris [00:31:12] For so what.

 

Tim [00:31:14] Do you do? What do you.

 

Chris [00:31:16] Say.

 

Tim [00:31:17] To two people feel like, man, I'm in the sweet spot of my productivity and I'm cranking.

 

Arianna [00:31:23] It's not hours. This work is not hours. It's a gift from God. It's manna. We thank him for it. And I think that I mean, I love that you accomplished so much, Tim. Like you really are the role model of how to do this.

 

Tim [00:31:35] In some ways, but some ways no, some ways no. And I got migraines to prove.

 

Arianna [00:31:40] But I think in terms of the way that you continue to dream and pursue your dreams, I really love that. But I think when it comes to taking a rest, it's not optional. It's not optional. It's how we were made. We were designed to the first point. We were made in the image of God. And so I would say that rest actually makes you more productive, although that's a happy consequence. That's not the reason to do it.

 

Tim [00:32:04] Stephen Covey's seven Habits Sharpen the song, right? Remember that you're going to sharpen that or are you going to do all the work and it won't be productive.

 

Arianna [00:32:11] I think, because here's the deal You cannot make a change in life if you do not have time to reflect and you cannot have time to reflect. If we're so busy all the time that we're in constant motion. We have to let things settle down and listen now. I will also say my husband and I arrest wildly differently. So in.

 

Tim [00:32:29] Our.

 

Arianna [00:32:29] Marriage we were in Taiwan having high tea in a tall tower, visiting our mother, my mother in law. And we had this conversation. We were waiting for our food and we were drawing on napkins. We were both talking about how we were trying to learn how to Sabbath together as a married couple, and it wasn't working. And we realized something. He feels rejuvenated. He can hear from the Lord when he's serving others and playing. He loves to play and he loves to serve others. I feel rejuvenated from the Lord when I'm quiet, contemplative and in nature. Now. I love to serve, but it doesn't recharge me. I just know that it's like a good thing to do. So we had a conversation of how do we do that? We made a commitment that we want a Sabbath together, so we depending on the season, we'll take turns like we'll have one Sabbath that's directed towards what I need, another that's directed towards what he needs or will combine it.

 

Chris [00:33:17] Yeah, and that's Gary Thomas. Yeah.

 

Tim [00:33:18] I was just going.

 

Chris [00:33:19] To say, what.

 

Arianna [00:33:19] Was the time that initiated Sacred.

 

Chris [00:33:21] Heart? Yeah. Yeah.

 

Arianna [00:33:22] When we read that Sacred Papa, his book radically changed the way we rest as it's.

 

Tim [00:33:27] So good.

 

Chris [00:33:27] Because you get this insight from reading it as to what, what fills you. And more importantly, where do you hear God And you hear God quite like me in quiet in nature, reading a book for me or, you know, and then my wife is is similar, but, you know, serving and doing other things for some people. And so it was, I imagined, pretty transformative to realize, all right, now we see each other differently the way they were. And and and imagine, like me, my goal at that point was to go, all right, I want my spouse to be able to hear from God. Yes. And so we need to plan differently. And she doesn't like you. We do that. We trade off. Yeah. You know, sometimes we're just quiet and hanging out, doing nothing. And then other times we're walking and talking with strangers and whatever. So.

 

Arianna [00:34:17] So when we had.

 

Tim [00:34:18] Such a good message, but Arianna said, this is not optional. So let me read a quote from your book and then mention a quote that we really had to abandon. Those who are called are more likely to work overtime or agree to take on extra responsibilities without extra pay or acknowledgment. And while there may be some kind of romantic notion about serving, here is where the caution light should start blinking. So when on staff Sabbath crew, here's the message read Get the world is going to be won by tired people.

 

Arianna [00:34:51] No.

 

Tim [00:34:53] I know. That was a message we heard all through college. Then we went on staff and then heard it from our crew. I hope has changed. Yeah, but I just love what you said, that it's just not arbitrary. So there's only so many things you can control. My brother Bob worked for General Motors in Detroit. Right. And this is when Detroit was going through a tough time. A guy literally walked into his office. He was in the accounting and he literally laid off half and said to the other half, hey, none of these responsibilities have went away, by the way, and be thankful you have a job. Okay. So my brother Bob was thankful he had a job. Then literally a year later, he came in, laid off the second half of the half and said, Be thankful. So that's what I love about your Sabbath thing, is there's certain things within an organization. My dad was a factory worker with layoffs. But you can't control the Sabbath. You can't control the externals.

 

Arianna [00:35:50] Right. And again, if you don't have the luxury of choosing one day off or faculty, we do have summers, but I never feel like there off. It's time for research and, you know, curriculum development and recharge because it is a lot of emotional labor as well, if you don't have that. But it's still a mindset because Sabbath also is I mean, it's all about relationship, relationship with the Lord. And so taking time to say, God, you are the author of my time and I surrender this work to you because it is not mine. It is yours.

 

Chris [00:36:18] If you hear the call caller talking to you, I love you. I love that, you know, just the idea. But you find him in in a in a certain place that we've been talking about. Right. And your husband might hear differently. Tell me, for those that are just now starting to listen to this call, or what advice would you give? Is it is it found during sabbaticals you mentioned in your book, It's not always this, you know, blinding light moment from heaven. It can. Be. Well, we can hear some things, but if if you're saying I want to encourage my kid or I want to encourage my spouse or myself, what have you found helps you listen to the caller. You said sabbaticals. Well, you said just just in circumstances we hear from him.

 

Arianna [00:37:08] But what I mean, I don't know if this is an exciting answer, but it's the real answer. Spending time in the word meaning it is the word of God for a reason that we can approach it is living and active and useful for all kinds of teaching. And so and I will say with a young kid and we have sick parents and so we're that panini generation where it's squished on every side. I do like 2 or 365. So it's I can listen to it.

 

Tim [00:37:35] Explain that real quick.

 

Arianna [00:37:37] Explain that you're looking for for a refresh in your spiritual life right now. Let go. 365 is the way you can read it. It's an app. You can read it, but you can also hear it. And it's international. So it's voices from all over the world. And there's all sorts of there's like 5 or 6 steps to it. And my husband and I listen to it together, but not together. So he'll be driving to work and I'll be driving to my work. We're not in the same car, but we're listening to this thing so that we can talk about it afterwards. But I do think the Word of God, I also think I think it's in Proverbs where it says a wise king has wise counselors. And so in addition to the word and I think worship and worship can be a lot of different things for me, it is musical worship.

 

Chris [00:38:19] And for others it could just be sitting there worshiping.

 

Tim [00:38:22] But what musical worship? So here's.

 

Arianna [00:38:25] So creating. Creating can be a kind of worship experience. But I think having wise people in your life. So I often tell college students this goes back to them. Build a board. Think of a board of directors, 3 to 5 people that you would want speaking into your life and always choose someone who's totally out of reach and not really an option because you should keep dreaming always, but build a board of people come up with three or 3 or 4 questions that you'd ask them and and then actually try to pursue that. So we do that at one of the classes that I teach. So call and sometimes.

 

Tim [00:38:55] Chris Chris is on my board.

 

Chris [00:38:56] Yeah, the one that can't be reached.

 

Tim [00:38:58] Number one that is easily achievable.

 

Arianna [00:39:01] Does Yeah I digress. So and I go to them a lot when I'm confused. But you know, you asked me, how do I hear the Lord? It's in the quiet whisper of my own heart and a confirmation somewhere else. And so the other day I was walking on this campus and I was tired. It was one of the days where I would if someone said, You can go home now, I'd be like, Sure. And I just said, Father, do you still want me here? And I was walking and at Biola on the sidewalk was a group of students just praying. I walked five more steps on another sidewalk ahead of me was a group of students just praying. I walked a few more steps and a group of students were talking about the resurrection of Jesus and what it means in their own life. I walk more steps and a third group of students are praying. Now, that's a little unusual. Yeah, and we know that other things happen on every kind of campus. That's not God honoring. But I just felt this like I have you here.

 

Tim [00:39:56] In it's so.

 

Arianna [00:39:57] And I could have missed it if I was on my phone or if I was distracted and multitasking.

 

Chris [00:40:01] Which is another thing. You talk about being attentive and listening to your heart, which leads one of the signs of burnout is the fact that you are not doing that. You're not just about it coming, you're not paying attention and you have other things happening.

 

Arianna [00:40:14] So so really, you asked me earlier like, how do you know when you're starting to get to burnout? So really the genesis of burnout is sustained stress stress over a long period of time. So not finals week and not moving or a new relationship, but a long period of stress where stress becomes normalized. And from a communication perspective, three things happen. We start to withdraw. So we are no longer communicative to ourselves or others. That's a survival mechanism, which is actually not a bad thing. It's bad when we don't communicate to others that we're doing it. That's good. The second thing after withdrawal is we have reduced awareness. We're not paying attention to the cues of other people because we just have survival mode on. Got to get to the end. Got to get to the end. So we pick up or we miss about 76% of the communication cues, which are all nonverbal. And the last thing is physical tension, anxiety, sweating, not sleeping, and all these things begin to take place. And I think.

 

Tim [00:41:12] I'm going to take a nap halfway through that. I'm like.

 

Arianna [00:41:16] Holy cow.

 

Chris [00:41:18] You know, listen, it parallels what happens when couples when married people begin to drift apart. I mean, we almost say the same thing. There's these underlying deep feelings of anxiety. They don't figure it out, but they're also missing each other. That attentiveness is I'm not I'm not seeing this person anymore. And when I do, I either interpret them wrongly or more negative than they think. But if I even notice them at all, it's probably. Them doing something wrong. So I love this this attention. You know what we share a lot in common. I'm a social psychologist, you know, Ph.D. who studied I psych had that is kind of a little minor in there. And and this happens then not just in this work world that you're talking about. It happens in relationships. And these are all in context. But it's so interesting how that. We could use another term and we could say couples that drift apart are experiencing levels of burnout. Do you imagine it's the same thing? Right. They are missing each other. They are. They are having these other kind of underlying emotions that are just not being heard or expressed. And I love how your book gives some great ways of overcoming.

 

Tim [00:42:38] And that book is healthy calling from Toxic burnout to sustainable.

 

Chris [00:42:43] What I showed on the camera.

 

Tim [00:42:45] I love the cover, by the way.

 

Chris [00:42:47] Yeah, just reading it. And you guys have been colleagues and I know you've been thinking about this, some other things struck you from her book that I know you wanted to talk about as well. We've covered a lot of this.

 

Tim [00:42:58] Well, I think, you know, I have a son who's in the who's in the midst of all this. He's a lawyer in Dallas with a high, well-respected, high energy law firm. And I'll be honest with you, the kids making money hand over it. That's great. Like like they did pre-marital counseling and they did like finances. And they just said, hey, like so like, how are you? Are you doing finances? My gosh. It totally changed what I want for Father's Day. It's like the bar went up. But here's the here's the thing. He's miserable. It's like miserable. It's like nobody pays you that kind of money and doesn't want every ounce of your time. And you're in a corporation that rewards billable hours. And so it's such a cool lesson to say, you know, maybe that this career has to be a package deal and not just the dollars and cents. And I'll say this about being a professor, we kind of forget a little bit like Arianna was laughing out loud when you said about Summers. So I worked at a gym in my gym. And I remember one time making the mistake of saying, wow, I'm so happy I got the summer off. And they looked at me and they said, What? What do you mean? I said, Well, I'm a professor. And so I don't teach. And they're like, What? And so but that's nice to think about is what is the package deal and is the work meaningful to me? So I actually love this quote. And then I want to ask you if you've heard of this size from my all time favorite worship songs. The formation and development of calling is like an iceberg. A considerable amount of the process is below the surface. This matters because the work we do, the work that feels like a calling, may not always be seen by others. It may not always be measurable. So do you remember Cayman's call?

 

Arianna [00:44:54] Love, Yes, Love Kidman's call.

 

Tim [00:44:57] They had a song called Bus Driver. Do You? So Bus Driver is this amazing song about a guy who drives a bus. But every single person who comes on the bus in the song, he tells you their their story.

 

Arianna [00:45:10] Wow.

 

Tim [00:45:10] This is Mrs. Johnson. He's going to go care for her ailing mother. This is a mr. Smith who's working so they can pay for the college. And he knows everybody in his job is to transport them. So I love that this bus driver and again, we go back to Augustine when he talks about eudaimonia flourishing. He said, it really is I'm deriving not just pleasure from this because the game we could we could play caller duty 24 seven but he says I'm serving a greater purpose of the community and I love that part of your book to say, listen, I it's not just about us in the American dream. Part of this work calling thing has to do with the second great commandment and the community.

 

Arianna [00:45:54] Yeah, absolutely.

 

Chris [00:45:56] Yeah. And then that iceberg notion to some people don't even realize what's down there as well and that's where it takes a little bit of time. Right? You have this this idea of this is where we're going, but there's a lot there. Emotions play a big role in this, doesn't it, for you? That notion of understanding and seeking and paying attention because burnout really is what this feeling of despair or this feeling of being, you know, in a broken place and a broken world. And I have I have no place to get out. It must just be this rotten thing. What do we tell these, you know, young lawyers and others that are beginning to say, I don't know how to do this anymore. I'm just wiped out. My marriage is affected, my relationships are bad, but I have to keep going. You have some bad. Vice for burnout and toxicity in the culture like. Sure.

 

Arianna [00:46:54] And I think one of the key things is we talk, you know, burnout. People are talking about burnout all the time. Right. And it's it's real. It's a real thing. And it really impacts people. It's not fun. It can lead to depression, anxiety, sick days, lethargy, apathy, all of that. But burnout from a calling is unique. Yeah. Burnout from a calling is especially toxic because there's a relational and spiritual shame connected to the burnout and shame.

 

Chris [00:47:19] You said runs to the dark and keeps us in the dark and light. I love your analogy. You write, There's dark and there's light, but there's actually light in the dark. That's right. It's not like there are two ends of a continuum. There's. And so talk about that and how shame plays this role.

 

Arianna [00:47:37] And shame makes us feel like. And then there's deep shame.

 

Tim [00:47:41] I was just going to but yeah, that's a great.

 

Arianna [00:47:42] Shame is is connected to the toxic burnout and it's a deeper feeling of worthlessness and and feelings of just deeper than apathy and cynicism. It goes to the very core of who you are. And it's no longer, I don't like what I'm doing. It's I don't know who I am anymore. So I would say, you don't want to wait until that happens. So again, burnout is not a category. It's a spectrum. That's exciting.

 

Tim [00:48:09] Good.

 

Arianna [00:48:10] That's great because you have control over that. So instead of it being like, am I burnt out or am I not burnt out, that's not the question. How far am I on the burnout scale? And so for people who are in high achieving jobs or even again, medical professions or military professions or or stay at home parents who are in the thick of kids under five who don't have the luxury of saying, I'm going to take a full Saturday off. I think having accountability markers of, okay, when am I going to stop? Even if it's just for two hours on this day, making sure that there are accountability markers and that you commit that to somebody else so that you don't get injured and then find out. Yeah.

 

Chris [00:48:50] And you would recommend that you have a board of directors. You also recommend that a spouse can do this. You can work on this even with children and others that say this is what I need and plan to do because I need to avoid this, because I'm I could tell it's starting to burn too much. Right?

 

Tim [00:49:07] What would you say to the couple who, though, assesses this differently? Like one one person says, I think we need to pull back. I'm moving on the spectrum of burnout and the other person saying, no, we're not. We're doing fine. We're doing the Lord's work where we're achieving X, Y and Z. What happens if they're kind of split?

 

Arianna [00:49:26] I mean, that's my husband has such a high capacity. He, you know, can run a marathon and recite poetry at the same time. And I can barely breathe. You know, he has a beautiful high capacity and I never want to limit him in that. I cannot keep up with him and he doesn't expect me to. So he has always asked me, please communicate with me when you have reached your maximum, because I'm not going to know it. So I can't resent him for pushing us past my own boundaries if I'm not communicating those needs. And I think that even goes back to conversations with your boss or your manager. You know, here's where I'm at. This is what's on my plate. And again, not all managers are going to pay attention to that or care. But even just taking the risk and being brave enough to have that conversation. So as it relates to couples, you have to talk about it. He and I have a business meeting once a week where we just check in with each other and say, How's it going? And we have a date night once a month. And those are two different things, so it's good.

 

Chris [00:50:22] Yeah, we recommend date nights, you know, on a regular basis. So thanks for pushing that, right, whether it's weekly or monthly. But I love the business meeting. Check in and you guys have a purpose for that and that is what your heart. How are you doing? What are you out right. What's life? Are you overwhelmed here? Are you underwhelmed?

 

Tim [00:50:40] We speak at FamilyLife Marriage Conferences and couples will literally say this The first time in five years we have been away from the kids. We've gotten away, so they're not having that weekly. And the cool thing is you can have that with the kids asleep. yeah, you can have that by swapping out with a good friend. Hey, you baby said the kids will babysit, you know, So there's got to be creative ways to do this. But I love the idea of checking in with each other and saying, Hey, I think we're doing okay. I think we're doing good. And that's where you get that look from your wife.

 

Chris [00:51:13] Or your.

 

Tim [00:51:13] Husband where it's like, what's your.

 

Arianna [00:51:16] Right?

 

Tim [00:51:17] Because and so that's those great moments of saying, yeah. So listen, the book is called Healthy Calling From Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work. It's InterVarsity Press. Thank you so much for taking the time. And it's not easy writing a book. No, it is.

 

Arianna [00:51:36] It's a baby.

 

Tim [00:51:37] Now.

 

Arianna [00:51:37] I can say that. I mean, it's, you know, different, but it's similar.

 

Tim [00:51:40] But thank you for because you're whining to minister to the community. And that's what I love is that you have that eye on. I want to get this in the hands of people. What now? Necessarily read academic journals, but. So thank you. And by the way, let me just mention this about the book that I think is just really cool about the book is it's not just about work calling. You have beautiful sections of questions and prayers that end each chapter. And I thought that was a really nice mix of, Hey, there's a spiritual component in this and you want to grease those rails a little bit to get us to move in that direction. So healthy Calling from Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work by Dr. Arianna Malloy.

 

Chris [00:52:23] And Arianna, we we have we appreciate it. We value that. You know what it is? It's also a model. I mean, this is your passion. This is your work, this your ministry. But you show how to do that in your life, which we got to hear a little bit here today. And that makes this book even better because it's not like, here's what you should be doing. Well, my life has fallen apart, and we know that because, again, you have your ability and your work here and you're just reputation of being available to students to talk and mentor and be with while still doing all these other wonderful things. Your June and July must be with writing. I couldn't.

 

Tim [00:53:02] Imagine. And how can listeners find you outside the book?

 

Arianna [00:53:04] Sure. I have a website Arianna malloy.com and there's a lot of different resources there. I do consulting on the side as well. And I will say two final things. When I wrote this book, I prayed over every page and I especially thought of the people reading it. And the last thing I would say is, this is not about perfection. Any relationship is messy, So I'm still figuring it out. I have not perfected this. I'm figuring it out.

 

Tim [00:53:27] Which is great because so is Chris, to be honest with you.

 

Chris [00:53:31] So continue to figure this out at the break and as we move along throughout the next year.

 

Tim [00:53:37] Hey, it's fun to be back.

 

Chris [00:53:38] Yeah, it's kind of having to come back. It is. It's been fun. Thank you for joining us.

 

Arianna [00:53:42] My pleasure.

 

Chris [00:53:43] And we will probably see you again on this real soon because there's a lot more to cover to come in to join us as well. It's going to be back to the Lord and reject it. All right. We'll see you.

 

Mandy [00:53:58] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.