A Cry For Help: Our Personal Story, Part II

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Mandy: Welcome to another Art of Relationships Podcast. We are grateful for listeners like you. Let's get right into it.

Chris Grace: Well, it's really fun to be here again for another podcast, Art of Relationships. And Lisa, one of the awesome opportunities we have is to talk about these fun topics that can help so many people out there with things that we think are very impactful on relationships. And one thing that we have noticed that really influence relationships is mental health struggles. People that are dealing with things emotionally, mentally, their thoughts, whatever it is, and somebody nearby is struggling. And it's a tough topic.

Alisa Grace: It is. But it's really, it's just common sense and a scientific fact that our relationships are impacted by another person's moods. You talk about that a lot about our emotions being contagious in a way.

Chris Grace: Yeah, that's perfect. I remember sometimes, we... Where I was dating somebody in college and their moods were kind of go up and down and I found that I kind of followed them up and down and I realized, "Wait, I don't like that." So when you and I met and started dating, one of the best things about you was you were always way less up and down, way more up than down and you continue to be to this day. And it really has helped me kind of moderate that. But the point is we do share our emotions like contagions with people. If you're upset and sad or worried, you can actually influence, like a contagion, somebody else's moods and emotions. And so therefore, we're always dependent upon other people. So you're right, Lisa. Relationships, while they're so fun and awesome. But they could be so complex and so troublesome when you're both are not doing well.

Alisa Grace: Yeah. If you had a spouse or a boyfriend, a girlfriend, or maybe just somebody in your family, a close friend or something, that maybe they used to be really approachable, really easy going, but now, kind of seems like they're a little bit more irritable, seems like they're a little bit more sad and withdrawn and that can really trigger a cheer, a sadness in you and affect your own mood.

Chris Grace: It does. And I realized the Broncos haven't had a whole lot of good seasons and I am irritable.

Alisa Grace: Oh, you want to go there? You really want to go there?

Chris Grace: But we're going to get there. And we have this quarterback, Russell Wilson, it's going to go well. I know my irritability, once January comes, it's going to be a whole lot better.

Alisa Grace: It's tied very close to the Broncos score, the Dodgers score, the Lakers score.

Chris Grace: Yeah, it is, unfortunately. And even some of our favorite college teams like Biola and Biola's baseball team and basketball team. Shout out to them. So people can get irritated and cranky about things like that. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about something that can impact the relationship that's a little bit more, I guess, deep and serious.

Alisa Grace: Mm-hmm. In fact, sometimes, it's... What we want to talk about today is called the common cold of mental health issues. Isn't it due to... Because it's so widespread, it's so prevalent. But what we're talking about are the issues of depression and anxiety.

Chris Grace: Yeah. And they're anything but common or easy when we say that. What it means is that use, you're right, Lis, it means it's just widespread. I mean, it's everywhere we go. You and I spent time in Russia, in England, you've traveled to Vietnam [inaudible]. And we find mental health issues everywhere we go. This is a human thing. So Lis, when someone you love struggles, it has an impact on a lot of different things. So we have brought along, because she was so awesome last time, our special guest, her name is Caroline Grace. And she is, I think, genetically predisposed just to be awesome.

Caroline Grace: Oh, yeah.

Chris Grace: And so she's lived into that. I mean, she's expressed that very well in her behavior.

Alisa Grace: You can't help but be awesome, given your-

Caroline Grace: I really can't help it. It's in my DNA.

Chris Grace: Caroline Grace, welcome to another Art of Relationships Podcast. Our daughter. And we talked last time on another podcast, if listeners want to go there and find it, just search for her story and journey through anxiety that started when she was a young child and got worse in high school. And then eventually, was helped with both counseling and medication.

Alisa Grace: And prayer.

Chris Grace: And so Caroline, thanks for sharing a little bit about your journey, but let's talk now about that person that's close to you. So you've had friends that have struggled with... What's your first step? What are you going to do? And has this happened to you where someone's revealed or you've sensed? I mean, you're a very... Now, because you've gone through this, you're always very intuitive and insightful, but you're connected to people, you read them very well. Now, someone you're worried about. What do you do? What's the first step? I've got a loved one. Roommate, friend, parent, brother, sibling, and they're struggling and you know it. What's the first step? What do you do?

Caroline Grace: The first step, I would say, just talking with them and understanding where they're coming from, what they're really struggling with. A lot of times, they just haven't told anyone or someone who understands. And as someone who's struggled with mental health, I've been able to be a resource for them and just common ground as someone who kind of gets it. So talking to them, assessing where they're coming from, what they're really struggling with, with the root, if it's just kind of common worry and if there's a solution to the problem that we can figure out together or if there's something deeper going on.

Alisa Grace: Is it more generalized?

Caroline Grace: Yeah. Is it more generalized?

Chris Grace: I mean, you had to go through this, you had to... Were people helpful peers at all? Do you sense that... When someone shares, do you feel like you have now the capacity to do this or the ability to help or... That's a struggle, I think, that a lot of people have, is they worry that if someone shares, they don't know what to say or do.

Caroline Grace: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Now, I feel like I do have the capacity to help. And I now know the resources to help direct someone to take advantage of. But yeah, a lot of people just don't know. They don't know how to help. They don't know. They don't know what to do.

Chris Grace: Yeah. Research in our field says... They'd interviewed some faculty not far from here down at UC Irvine and some others, and almost all of them said, they see it in their students, they recognize when and some students come to them, but their biggest worry and fear is they're not trained. They don't know what to do next. They feel immediately like, "I don't know what to do with this, where to go, who the hell? I don't know the resources." And that's what we want to talk about today. Lis, what do you think?

Alisa Grace: I think we can find that parents feel that way, oftentimes, teachers, even pastors, when they're counseling. We have so many pastors that have come to us that said, "Hey, we need some help. We have a lot of mental health issues at our church and we're just not equipped to really, in a professional way, deal with that. Can you help us? Can you point us to some resources?"

Chris Grace: Yeah. So let's look for some typical signs. What would you see in another person? And Alisa and I, of course, we can talk about this from a parent standpoint, but Caroline, you've lived this with a lot of your peers at the same time. I mean, you guys are some of these COVID kids that have come out during this amazingly stressful period and pandemic, which could be with us for a long time. So let's just start. You're going to see some typical signs. They're going to be overly emotional at times. What emotions do you see and how do they play out? Like anxiety, fear, sadness. What is it?

Caroline Grace: Yeah. I see quick, kind of how we talked about before, quick irritability in times where it's like, you shouldn't be irritable right now and you usually aren't, so what's going on? Heightened anxiety and just worry about things that you shouldn't be worried over.

Chris Grace: Give us an example. Why would you worry about maybe not getting into college when you're only 15? Or is that what you mean?

Caroline Grace: Yeah. Things like that. Why would you worry about that at 15? You don't need to worry about that. Or why would you worry about the way that someone is going to think about you when you're never going to see them again? That's odd and you shouldn't be worrying about that.

Chris Grace: All right. And then what kind of thinking? It seems like they have a lot of doubts, maybe a lot of... They're critical of themselves. You would think, "Oh, I'm not lovable."

Caroline Grace: Yeah. Very self critical. Very unlovable, thinking that they're unworthy to have friends, that their friends don't actually like them, and that they're just putting up a facade. Yeah, that's [inaudible].

Alisa Grace: They're talking about me.

Caroline Grace: Yeah. They're talking about me, stuff where it's... These are your good friends and they're not doing that.

Alisa Grace: Or even pessimism. Like, "Oh, everything's bad. Everything's going to go bad. There's no hope." A sense of hopelessness, huh?

Caroline Grace: Yeah. Very much so.

Chris Grace: So those are some typical signs that we see. One that I'll see as a professor is students come in and you could tell they're missing assignments, they're not doing the work, and they want come in and say, "It's just been rough." And I say, "Well, tell me what rough means." "Well, I'm just... I'm not able to get motivated and I just can't do anything." I say, "Well, tell me what's going on. What's happening?" "Well, it's just... I'm just stressed. My relationship is messed up. I broke up with somebody recently." I mean, it's those kinds of things that are signs. And, Lis, we see a lot of that.

Alisa Grace: We do. And some of the physical signs that you might see would be fatigue or a lack of energy. Maybe they're sleeping too much or not able to sleep at all. They just can't sleep. It could be they're overeating to help manage their emotions or they might even experience the other extreme, which is with a loss of appetite. It could be headaches, some unexplained aches and pains. And then what about spiritually, Chris? What do you see with some of the students you deal with?

Chris Grace: Well, a lot of them just feel like there's a lid. I was in college, I became a Christian in college. One of my very first roommates that was very helpful for me in my Christian walk early on, I remember I kind of, I thought, "Wow, you've been a Christian a long time." Idolized him. He'd used the word a spiritual dryness. He said, "It's like there's a gap between me and God that can't be filled." And he just said, "I just don't feel like he hears me or he listens, or he cares." Do you see that at all, Caroline?

Caroline Grace: Oh, yeah. Definitely among my Christian friends. Part of that self-hatred and self-loathing is that they're not worthy to be a child of God, that God doesn't care, or that God put this upon them. And so God doesn't care for them, God isn't willing to help. And they believe that since they're Christians, they shouldn't have to struggle with mental health. And if you do, then you're not really a Christian.

Alisa Grace: Oh, that's so important.

Caroline Grace: That's biggest misconception that I see.

Chris Grace: Maybe they just never know Jesus or talk to him and [inaudible]. So here are the symptoms that if you worry about a loved one and a friend, it sounds like we can step into some things to help. Let's do that. What would you recommend was helpful for you? And in general, what's helpful for people when it comes to dealing with that loved one that you say, "Yep. They meet these conditions. I see these signs in them and I now want to play a healthy, good role for them." I think the first thing is to know that these symptoms, know what's going on, know what depression is, go Google it, go look up anxiety, go see what fear is. I think when, Caroline, you started to realize, "Oh, this is anxiety." My thoughts, your friend Sean, and your friend, others, that you're eating with are going, "Caroline, we don't think this way." So just simply knowing the triggers and how different your experiences might be.

Caroline Grace: Yeah. Understanding what might trigger someone, learning what to say and what not to say is really important. Learning how to not just dismiss, but to truly sympathize with someone is very important.

Chris Grace: Okay.

Alisa Grace: That was a great point.

Chris Grace: You are 19, you are clearly tech not only savvy, but you're just a native. I mean, this is what you grew up with. Do you believe that use of technology, primarily social media, let's just start with Instagram, but there's others out there. I mean, whether it's Facebook or Twitter, I don't know what the new ones are. Snapchat and whatever. Do they play a role in some, in triggering things like anxiety? And so I'm referring specifically to studies that have said that the more people are trying to get likes, the more they start to obsess about it, and then to feel bad about it if no one posts and then they see others and they start to feel anxious because they don't compare favorably, and all of a sudden now, we're starting to see massive amounts of anxiety in our younger people that are tech natives and who are using these social media. What do you think? Can that be a trigger for a lot of these people?

Caroline Grace: That can definitely be a trigger. Social media is just another outlet for living nowadays for communicating, for being in community with people. During the pandemic, that was the only way to stay in a community for a lot of people.

Alisa Grace: That's a great point. Yeah.

Caroline Grace: And seeing people on lavish beach vacations and going out and having tons of friends and having all this money and fitting beauty, societal standards, I think that can influence a lot of people's mental health.

Chris Grace: In what ways did you see it? Did you ever feel like if not you, then some of your friends wouldn't compare favorably? What was it? What caused...

Caroline Grace: Yeah. A lot of my friends, they didn't compare economically to them. Physically, they felt like they didn't compare-

Chris Grace: Their body type or their beauty or...

Caroline Grace: Yeah, their body type. Yeah, people are amazing at Photoshop nowadays. And seeing that is, it seems like reality for many people when it's not true.

Alisa Grace: I love it. On Instagram, when somebody will get on there and say they're just beautiful. And they're like, "This is not what I look like." And then they remove the filter to show what they really look like in reality. And I think we function in a way that we just assume that there's no filters, that those filters don't exist, and what I'm seeing is reality, and there's no way that my reality measures up to that false reality.

Caroline Grace: Yeah. And just-

Alisa Grace: That can do a number on you.

Caroline Grace: Yeah. And anxiety, a huge root of anxiety for a lot of my friends is just comparison. And you have access to compare yourself to so many people on social media.

Chris Grace: We have to be real clear, some do this very well. I mean, I know you've got one or two good friends and they're out there on social media, they put their stuff out there and they're very healthy and they do it well. And so this can be done. It's just, it can be a trigger. And if that's the case, Caroline, if you agree and I think you do, that it can trigger, what's the solution? I mean, one thing is, "I got to get rid of my account." What some of the solutions you've heard?

Caroline Grace: Yeah. Many solutions are you have to take a step back. Your brain becomes wired to want social media and to want constant viewing of social media. You become used to it. And you have to take a step back. And realigning your values, it's so easy to begin, well, to compare yourself to people and want to be like them and want to look like them. And when you start reorienting your viewpoint on life with what God has for you and the standards that he has for you, when you take a step back from social media and really stop viewing social media, stop caring about that and start wanting to view your life the way that God wants you to, it becomes much easier to maintain a healthy viewpoint of yourself.

Chris Grace: Yeah. So that could be taking a fast. I'm going to take a whole week, a whole day. I'm not going to worry about the likes. I mean, it seems like you could almost get conditioned, [inaudible] condition to the likes, the number, and then all of a sudden, "People aren't liking." To take away and to take a break could be one big thing. All right. So what else, Lisa, would you say if someone is dealing with this area... Here's what I worry about, ready? People come to these faculty, they go to the parents, they go... And them themselves are dealing and struggling with depression. They don't know what to do. They don't know where to go. They themselves don't feel ready to take the next steps. So I think if you want to be a help to your friends, you have to kind of know what's happening.

So be prepared. Look out for those and get yourself kind of ready to do this. Caroline, I remember you reading psych textbooks from early on. I'm like, "What are you reading?" You're like, "I'm reading this intro to psych textbook." [inaudible] like, "Okay, you're only 12, but that's fine." But, I mean, for the person out there that really wants to be able to help and they're not sure what to do, they probably need to start looking up some things like one program is called Mental Health First Aid. You can go through that. You just call it one more time, Mental Health First Aid and it's great. It's like, it's based upon the Red Cross' first aid responses. But just to kind of learn a little bit about and get educated about some things. What do you think?

Caroline Grace: Yeah. Just get educated. It's not your job or your duty to diagnose by any means, but-

Alisa Grace: Great point.

Caroline Grace: ... being helpful, being a listening ear, just learning what those warning signs are. Like in the last episode, we talked about how mom was able to see big, red flashing lights of warning signs and just being aware of what those are, is really important when talking to people who might be struggling.

Chris Grace: Gosh, I love that. You listen, you are not diagnosing and you're certainly... But you are listening non-judgmentally, you're spending time-

Caroline Grace: Empathizing.

Chris Grace: Empathizing. Like you said earlier, you kind of say... Well, you try and get to the heart of it. So what's happening and clear away some of the...

Caroline Grace: Yeah, just asking questions, not being judgemental. You're not there to solve the problems necessarily, but just asking what's wrong, what's going on and letting them share how much they're willing to share.

Chris Grace: I remember you came back to us one time and you were talking to somebody and they were draining you. They just simply... I remember even our other daughter, Natalie, talked about that a roommate was draining her and she knew as soon as she was getting drained, that she was out of her league and she needed to pass on. What do you think?

Caroline Grace: Yes. That's very important. Your mental health needs to come first. And if you are feeling drained, you're not going to be helpful. If you're struggling, you're not going to be able to help someone else. You can't pour from an empty cup. You have to be healthy to help someone else. And you don't have to be perfect. You're not there to give perfect solutions, just a listening ear. But sometimes, that's too much. And that's okay if that's too much. That doesn't mean that you're a bad friend or a bad Christian. That just means redirecting and finding someone to help them, even if that's out of your pay grade. That's okay.

Alisa Grace: Yeah. I love that because even a... I mean, people that are trained professionally to work in this area, they go through years of school to be well trained. And that's not the regular everyday Joe friend, doesn't have that kind of equipping and training that someone with years and years of therapy and schooling and education. And plus, even therapists set a 50 minute time limit. And so they set that boundary of, I am all yours, I'm all ears. I want to be completely fully present with you but within the boundaries of this 50... I have this amount of time that I can be available to you.

Chris Grace: That's really good. So let's go back real quickly. Know what those triggers are, know the things, maybe be willing to take... If you're younger and well, if you're older too, taking a break from Instagram and Facebook. So know that. Be prepared, know how to... It's okay to listen. You don't have to have the perfect answers you said, you don't have to know everything. You could just sit there and be a listening ear. And we talked earlier, be ready to encourage them to seek professional help.

Caroline Grace: Yes.

Chris Grace: And know what that means. You said earlier, you start with the general practitioner. Everybody has one. And if not, you could walk into any clinic. In fact, you can walk into any urgent care healthcare, say "I'm struggling." and see a doctor immediately. So be prepared, even to the point of knowing who are some great therapists and counselors in the area, some that might even be great Christians. And we have a resource list here at Biola at cmr.biola.edu, a resource list that you can look at or at least call us for people in the area. They're great centers. So that's one thing about being prepared. Another one, Caroline, is it seems like people that are struggling your age and even our age, we're in our 30s, but people that are struggling-

Caroline Grace: For quite a while now.

Chris Grace: ... also deal with this very negative and worrisome tendency to disconnect. Mental health struggles aren't a connecting type of thing. Like, [inaudible] people. It's almost like, "Ooh, I'm afraid of people." and [inaudible].

Caroline Grace: Isolating.

Chris Grace: What do you think? Yeah, isolating.

Caroline Grace: Yeah. It's very isolating. That's a huge problem. And sometimes, even you want to be there for people, they don't want that. They don't want to talk about it, they don't want to...

Alisa Grace: That raises a quick question for me. If I can ask him and either Caroline or Chris, you can speak to this. There are some people that are just naturally introverts and they just need that time alone to recharge as opposed to extroverts who are recharged and energized by being with other people. So how do you tell the difference between somebody who's just naturally an introvert and may just need that time alone versus an introvert who's struggling with some depression, anxiety and is isolating. How do you tell the difference?

Chris Grace: Yeah. Oh, man. That's a great question because in here, you have one clear extrovert on this podcast, one clear medium person who's in between, and I would say you are a little... Well, you're definitely more introverted, Caroline.

Caroline Grace: I am.

Alisa Grace: I say you guys are introverts with extrovert tendencies.

Chris Grace: Yeah. We like talking and talking to people.

Alisa Grace: And I'm maybe more of an extrovert with introvert tendencies.

Chris Grace: So Caroline, how would you answer that question? I mean, there's a difference for you, but I'll start and it just goes like this, some people just, hey, they refresh, they recharge, they connect with God, they need time away, and that's great. When it begins to bother them and worry them, when they start to close off and they become more isolated. The pandemic really escalated some of this aloneness. When they begin to feel not just alone, but lonely, then it's starting to be a problem. So parents sometimes worry like, "Oh, my kid is such an introvert. They never go out. I want them to go out with friends." Yeah, well, that'll happen. When should they be concerned? I guess when they have absolutely nobody they can turn to and they start to say, "I'm lonely." What do you think?

Caroline Grace: Yeah, I would say the biggest sign to tell the difference between someone who's just introverted and someone who's struggling with mental health would... You would see it in other areas of their life. An introvert who's healthy would still have tendencies to go out and hang out with people. They just recharge at home. They can love people and love hanging out with people and not get worried or anxious. They just recharge at home. Maybe need to take more naps. But someone who's struggling with mental health will want to withdraw, they will be overly anxious about seeing people usually. You'll see it in other areas of their life, not just social.

Chris Grace: Wow. That's really good.

Alisa Grace: That's true. Maybe they're not wanting to go to work, they're not able to get out, they're not exercising, they're not eating well, they're losing sleep, they're... Just all sorts of... I think that's a great point is that it's going to show up in other areas of their life. And I think another important part that you're maybe alluding to, Chris, in terms of the danger of isolation is just the incredible power of physical touch when you're with other people. Whether it's a hug, holding hands, sitting close, physically touching. Chris, this is really in your ballpark as a social psychologist. Can you talk about just some of the power or the impact that we've seen in research about the power of touch and how it actually helps alleviate pain and things like that?

Chris Grace: Yeah, no, you said it. It does. And so you can tell how important touch is by simply the last two years or however long this pandemic has gone on where people no longer are getting that. And they may come from a home that there's not a lot of hugs and touching.

Well, we're seeing... And some people are speculating and there'll be research on this, that it's been the lack... The lack of connection really does mean emotional but also physical. And so you could just simply hold the hand of somebody and calm your anxiety and fears. And literally, they say cut it in half by just simply touching, having contact. So I think, Lis, that's what it is. So there are clear signs that this ability to be in close emotional and physical contact allows us to share, even synchronize things like brainwaves and things like that. So I think that's real important.

Alisa Grace: Yeah. And I think maybe another step that you could take is that you really need to take care of your heart, your own heart. And what I'm talking about is that time alone with God. To have that daily time where you are spending with him. And there's a reason that he says in Psalm 46:10, he says, "Be still and know that I'm God." That even in those times where you may be a little bit more isolated, to know that God is close to the brokenhearted, his word says. And it says that, "The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him and he delivers them." I mean, so to spend time in God's word, to remind yourselves of the truth that he loves you, he is with you, and he is for you. And that nothing you say or do can change that. His love is absolute. It is unconditional. And that to constantly remind yourself of that truth, to see it in his word, to read it, to memorize it, commit it to that scripture to memory, to meditate on that.

Sometimes, a couple years ago, we're going to actually do a podcast about this, about our journey. In fact, it involved the three of us where in one year, we experienced Chris' diagnosis of stage three colon cancer. Caroline, you had a severely herniated disc in your back as a 17 year old. We had to actually bring you home from boarding school for half that year. We had the pandemic hit. There were just a number of things that happened. And as the main caregiver, there were days that I was really struggling. I mean, I'm trying to take care of you, Chris, advocate for you with the doctor, navigate and advocate-

Chris Grace: Surgery.

Alisa Grace: ... for Caroline. She had back surgery, you had two surgeries. We were going through chemo.

Chris Grace: [inaudible].

Alisa Grace: Oh, I mean, it was just our year of Job. The pandemic was going on. But honestly, there were days that I felt like I was hanging by a thread. And honestly, I mean, I know that people say, "Oh..." Can some try to say, "Well, just spend time with the Lord. He'll get you through it." But honestly, it was that time early in the morning, I would get up before you guys got up and I would spend time praying and reading his word and times that I would read in Habakkuk. The very last verse in... I wish I could remember the chapter off the top of my head in Habakkuk.

But basically, has said, "You know what? If the fig trees don't bloom, if the olive trees don't produce, if the fields remain fallow, still will I praise the Lord." That means even when things aren't going good, even when things are hard and you're struggling, I'm still going to praise the Lord because I know the truth that he loves me, he is for me, and he is with me and that will never, ever change. And so that time in the morning just reminds me of that truth. And that would really set the tone emotionally for me throughout the day.

Chris Grace: It would. By the way, that's Habakkuk 3.

Alisa Grace: Oh, thank you.

Chris Grace: [inaudible].

Alisa Grace: It's the last two verses of Habakkuk 3, isn't it?

Chris Grace: Yeah, 17 and 19.

Alisa Grace: Mm-hmm. Thanks.

Chris Grace: No, [inaudible]. Well, let's do this. I think we shared a lot of cool things. One thing I mentioned earlier, just I want to reiterate, if you want some help in this, start... Look at some different websites. We have some great things from the American Psychological Association, American Association of Counselors and Christian Counselors on how do you help come alongside people that are struggling. Things like Mental Health First Aid started in Australia, but it's here in the States as well. Just get yourself informed. And Caroline, you've been able to do this just on your own and just through this journey and it's played out in helping some of your friends, hasn't it?

Caroline Grace: It has. Yeah. It's easy to learn online. If you have a want to, there's resources out there to learn.

Chris Grace: Yeah, that's good.

Alisa Grace: And if you are looking for a good, solid Christian therapist that can come alongside you and walk this journey with you, we want to give you a couple of resources. First of all, if you're looking for a good solid therapist in your area, check out online, the American Association of Christian Counselors. Chris just mentioned that, the AACC. Check them out online. Focus on the Family has a beautiful network of resources of counselors that are available and are well vetted in your area. Here in the Southern California area, we have personal... We're actually serve... Chris has been on the board of a Christian organization of therapists called the Center for Individual and Family Therapy, CIFT, C-I-F-T. Just solid, solid people. But resources are out there. If we can be a help to you, we also have free relationship advice, free life advice with trained professionals through our Center for Marriage and Relationships. And you can get in touch with us and set an appointment at cmr.biola.edu. So I think that's about it that we have for today.

Chris Grace: Caroline, thanks for being a guest.

Caroline Grace: Thanks for having me.

Chris Grace: Oh, it's awesome, man, to talk about this. I know it's hard, but what we're going to do next, I think, is follow up and talk a little bit about journeys through trauma, because trauma is a little bit different. I mean, trauma can be-

Alisa Grace: Crisis, yeah.

Chris Grace: And crises can be shorter lived in some respects but also can have a greater impact, whether it's fear of shootings that have gone on, whether it's an accident or maybe it's a disability or cancer or disease. And we'll talk about some of your struggles and some of ours and we'll do that on another one. What do you think?

Alisa Grace: That sounds great. Thanks so much for being with us today on The Art of Relationships. We just would really encourage you to hit the subscribe button on whatever platform you're listening on. We would love for you to give us five stars and check out our website at cmr.biola.edu. We're brought to you by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships.

Chris Grace: Caroline, thanks joining us.

Caroline Grace: Thank you.

Alisa Grace: Okay, bye-bye.

Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to The Art of Relationships. This podcast is only made possible through generous donations from listeners just like you. If you like it and want to help keep the podcast going, visit our website at cmr.biola.edu and make a donation today.