End the Stalemate with Guests Sean McDowell & Tim Muehlhoff — pt. 1

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In this episode, Chris Grace sits down with special guests Sean McDowell and Tim Muehlhoff, co-authors of End the Stalemate, to explore the art of having difficult conversations in today's polarized world. They discuss how to navigate disagreements, the role of contempt in damaging relationships, and the importance of empathy and perspective-taking. Providing practical tips, they help listeners communicate more effectively and maintain healthy relationships, even when faced with differing opinions.

Whether you're navigating tense discussions with family, friends, or colleagues, this episode offers valuable insights to improve your communication and foster understanding.

Resources Mentioned:

• End the Stalemate - A guide to fostering respectful and productive conversations despite deep differences.
• Sean McDowell's YouTube Channel - Demonstrating effective dialogue with people of differing beliefs.
• Blue Trust - Biblically centered financial planning and investment management services. Contact Colby Gilmore (colby.gilmore@ronblue.com) for personalized financial advice for all income levels.

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: youtube.com/@biola-cmr

Join the Conversation:

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• Leave a review on [Apple Podcasts/Spotify/Your platform] to help others discover the show.
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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

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Mandy [00:00:00] Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

 

Chris [00:00:11] Well, welcome to another Art of Relationships podcast. You'll notice today that it's just me. My wife, Alisa. Give a shout out to her, the co-host. She has bowed out because we have two special guests today. And she has said, Chris, I think you hanging out with those guys is great, but they irritate me. And I would rather you go talk to them. And I said, Chris, Sean McDowell's not that bad because No, it's not Sean I'm talking about. It's Tim, your half. And I said, No way. Lisa And she said, Yes way. Chris So, hey, we're here on the Articulations podcast. Your of Dr. Tim You'll have Dr. Sean McDowell, two of our greatest friends. I'll be honest with you, Sean, let's start with you. We probably have known each other. How many do we want to say? How many years ago we met?

 

Sean [00:01:01] I think I was a freshman in 94, in psychology, 1 to 1. And I still remember some of the lessons you taught and your jump shot in intramurals. Those two things stand out to me or lack thereof. But you know.

 

Chris [00:01:15] Sean, every time I think of you, I think I do think of you coming up in class and asking questions. And I also think about you in a in another way, and that is intramurals. First of all, John, you were on the basketball team at Yale, so you were really good. You had a great I remember senior year to your freshman year. You never saw any playing time.

 

Sean [00:01:34] I did not. But that mattered.

 

Chris [00:01:36] But I shot and I remember as I recruited you toward the end of your time here, and I said, Sean, I want you to be on my intramural team. I've got a bunch of players from the team that are, you know, eligible now and we can smoke them. You remember what you said to me? You said, Chris, No, thanks. I appreciate it. But I got some guys on my floor and I'm going to play with them. And I go, okay, then, you know, let's it's on. We'll see you on the court. Well, anyway, Sean, what so impressed me was you came on that court and you had four guys or five guys from your dorm floor, only one of which I think you had many skills. The others, they were good. I don't hope they're not listening, but but it wasn't like they were talented. And John, you made that team sing. I think you led the league in assists. I was it was very impressive. You surrounded yourself with some guys that you knew and you liked rather than trying to win, and I just thought that was fun. I don't know if you remember that.

 

Sean [00:02:33] Well, I do remember that. I remember you had I think his name was Chip. He was a complete stud. Sent me down on one of my teammates. Yeah, he's.

 

Chris [00:02:41] A professor now. Yes.

 

Sean [00:02:42] My goodness. He was a.

 

Chris [00:02:43] Baller. He was a.

 

Sean [00:02:44] Boy. I was honored you asked. And it was tempting. I was a I was an aura for my floor. So it was kind of relationship building. And I did choose my floor. But just for the record, we did win the whole thing nonetheless. Wait.

 

Tim [00:02:56] Did you really win the whole thing intramurals?

 

Sean [00:02:58] I mean, I know.

 

Chris [00:02:59] It was Sean that did it. I don't.

 

Sean [00:03:01] Know about.

 

Chris [00:03:01] That. It was very impressive. Well, we did win it the other year. We were gone finally. So anyway, and Dr. Tim, thanks for.

 

Tim [00:03:08] Who Never got an invite?

 

Chris [00:03:10] No.

 

Tim [00:03:11] You play basketball? I never remember one coming.

 

Chris [00:03:14] Well, you got one. And that was the first one was was a good shoulder to jump had. And you know what? I think we're busy this weekend now, Tim, you used to be obviously on the Relationships podcast. If you all want to go look listeners, you can find it at  cmr.biola.edu and Tim. We did this for years together, so it was really back to the hot seat. It was really.

 

Tim [00:03:40] Fun. Those were some great times.

 

Chris [00:03:41] Well, both of you guys have done some amazing things. If I had listed the number of books, we would not finish this podcast. I'm always impressed when I see a new book coming out by John, a new book coming out by Tim. I like. If you guys keep this up, you're going to pass me soon. That's the.

 

Sean [00:03:59] Together.

 

Chris [00:04:00] Together. Yeah. You have to add them up. You might pass me on. You guys, thank you for coming on this podcast. We talk about all things relationships. Of course, one of the most amazing books I think that's going to edge just hit the market. It's called End the Stalemate. Tim and Sean, you guys have co-written a book for the ages, especially the ages in which there are so many disagreements between people about things that we used to be able to at least have civil conversations about, right? Politics, religion, morals. He didn't always bring them up, but families didn't seem to be divided over this today. Do you guys give me your assessment? Why did you write it? Why write a book called End the Stalemate and what motivated you?

 

Tim [00:04:50] Well, I'd say two things motivated. One, Pew Research, 98% of Americans. Now, let me just say that one more time. 90. 8% of us would say that incivility is a threat to this country. So I do think there's a cultural moment. I think most Americans, if you ask them, would say set aside politics. We got to learn how to talk to each other. And I think the groundswell really feels that. And then second, to maybe talk about what's unique about now, Chris. Arthur Brooks said America doesn't have an anger problem. We have a contempt problem. And by contempt, he means I'm mad at you, but I'm cutting off the relationship. See, it's okay to be mad at each other, but say we're family members or spouses? Church members. Contempt means we're church members. But you should lead this church. Like our church would be better off without you. And there was another Pew Research that said the 2016 presidential election, 33% of respondents said, I no longer talk to a family member based on that presidential election. We can't continue with that trend.

 

Chris [00:05:58] No, we can't. You brought up a word that I'm sure our listeners understand what contempt is. But from a psychological, emotional standpoint, it's the mixture of two emotions, right? It's anger and disgust. So I can be angry with somebody that's fine or something could disgust me. But when you bring those two together, we call it contempt, which when it comes to marriages, 90% of all marriages that you can predict the likelihood of a divorce with 90% accuracy. If you see one emotion, and that's the emotion of contempt. So I'm angry at my spouse. Fine. But if I see and I'm talking to a couple and I see contempt now, contempt is kind of if you want to think about it, is that nonverbal like that? I were all like, my God, you disgust me. You know, someone's talking to you. Or you see two people talking. And if they show that look of that sighing eye roll, it means they're not just angry but disgusted. Tim That's an amazing stat. If we're feeling contempt these days for people.

 

Tim [00:07:00] Yeah, let's just say this real quick before we go to Sean. Go to Romans chapter 14. And Paul's dealing with the disagreement between Jewish converts and Gentile converts about days and diets. He says, listen, do not have contempt for each other. So even Paul invokes that to say this will be detrimental to the church. This could undo the church. So we need to take Paul at his word. We can disagree with each other, but we can't have contempt for each other.

 

Chris [00:07:28] Now, imagine that the accuracy of predicting divorce is 90 some percent. If you see that one emotion, that's amazing right there. Dr. Sean, you guys decided this book. You decided, first of all, to take, I'm sure, a leap of faith and work with Dr. Muhammad. But you you answered it correctly and said, no, I like him and just.

 

Tim [00:07:52] Did an eye roll.

 

Chris [00:07:55] I just did know IRA marriage. But anyway, John, what was it that was so important or drove you to go? This is it. This is what we need to do.

 

Sean [00:08:06] This book was Tim's idea. He came to me and approached me and kind of said he's done some scholarly work on this, did his doctoral dissertation on it, and said, I kind of feel like you're practicing this a little bit on YouTube channel on stage and trying to model us. Let's write it together. It was a no brainer because I met Tim about two years after I met you in the mid-nineties at a communication seminar when he did not.

 

Chris [00:08:29] Actually he didn't have hair that.

 

Sean [00:08:31] I. Sean, you had to hear what you want me to Long hair. You did not.

 

Tim [00:08:36] You didn't know you were serious.

 

Sean [00:08:38] Really? I've never seen you. I haven't seen a picture of you with hair.

 

Chris [00:08:41] You two.

 

Tim [00:08:42] He was really funny. Okay. I took it back. I take it back.

 

Sean [00:08:46] Well, he. So he asked me to write it. And in some ways, every book is hard to write, at least that I've done of books. This was easier in the sense that it was just putting on paper what I've been trying to do for a couple of decades in the sense that I'm an apologist. I defend the faith, I have debates, but I like to just sit down with people and go, Tell me what you believe. Why do you believe that? How did you come to that conclusion? I'm not threatened by people who see the world differently. And I've tried to, even on my YouTube channel, just model for people. If you're an evangelical, how do you have a conversation with a progressive Christian, an agnostic, an atheist, and how do you just disagree? Respectfully, I think there's a lot of people who want to be able to do that, and they quite literally don't even have the tools how to do that effectively.

 

Chris [00:09:34] Two questions. One, first of all, what's the YouTube channel?

 

Sean [00:09:37] Just if you search for make out a pop up, okay.

 

Chris [00:09:40] To something you do is intriguing, Sean. And I'd like you to tell me what responses you get. You go in front of large groups and you pretend to be an atheist. And I would imagine you understood. I get a lot of emotional reactions from the audience. Right. Is that one of your things that you're I know you're famous for it.

 

Sean [00:10:01] Yes. Now, in virtually all instances, the audience knows I'm a Christian. They know I'm an apologist. There was one time about three years ago at a Christian school where the teacher said, I want to introduce you as my atheist friend. And I said, I don't know if that's a great idea. I'm not sure. He goes, Look, it's my students. It'll be better. I was like, okay, I'm your guest. Fine. Well, they put on YouTube and let's just say it went viral. I mean, I haven't checked in months, but it was up to 5 million followers. And so even some atheists responded to that and some were like, you made some good points. We don't appreciate this. And it started a dialog, which was great. But the idea being especially when people know I'm a Christian, is I can stand up there all day and time blue in the face and say, You need to be gracious and be kind. Ever Christian? Yes, I agree 100%. But when you push back and you make people feel uncomfortable and you let it go 30 or 40 minutes, people get testy, they get defensive. And so I wear these what I call them, like my atheist glasses, and then I take them off. And the first question I say is, I'm just curious. Give me one word answers of how you describe the way you treated your atheist guest. And Chris, it's like their look on their faces. It's like the ultimate teaching moment where it's like, Dang it, you got me. And the most common words are like hostility, aggressiveness. One girl said, One girl said depersonalization. I said, What do you mean? She said, You were like a project to fix and reason with. We don't even think about you as a human being. So I think we we have a lot of misunderstanding. We have a lot of contempt towards people who see the world differently. And we just don't know how to communicate with people. Well.

 

Chris [00:11:47] Tim, And that's just a beautiful demonstration. And Sean, let's let's follow up in a little bit about what can we do now? What should we do and what lessons can we learn. But, Tim, I mean, that strikes you, Tom.

 

Tim [00:12:00] When when observation. Schama just said, I do a version of that. I actually did it in a master's level apologetics class where they absolutely knew I was role playing. And they know this is the professor role playing. And I had two students get so aggressive, angry at me, they got confronted by the rest of the class. Wow. But let me make this point. Let's take away the one instance where people didn't know who you were. Everybody walked in that room with. Those emotions in them are ready. And you just surfaced it. That's right. Right. They were already angry, frustrated. They don't like having their views pushed or be challenged. So one thing in the book, Chris, that we say you have to do is what we call the pre conversation. You have to deal with your heart beforehand because you carry all those. And the thing you taught me, Chris, is emotional contagion. Daniel Goleman Those emotions are there and they bleed right into the relationship either overtly, which would be that what we did, Sean's people actually challenging us in inappropriate ways. But even if you don't overtly do it, those negative emotions are seeping in. So the heart is mentioned 500 times in Scripture, and Jesus says from the heart you speak. So we really believe in and the soul mate, you have to work on your heart first before you step into these hard political, social, interpersonal conversations.

 

Chris [00:13:26] Okay. Yeah, I love those words, but what does it mean? Like I'm sitting here listening, right? And I want I want to work on my heart. Well, first of all, I know two things. One, God made me with emotions, right? Anger is there's nothing wrong with anger. I mean, it's just who you know, it's part of all of us, right? Sadness, joy, even contempt and disgust. You know, they serve a purpose, right? I see something that's disgusting or bad. I want to avoid it. Nothing wrong with that. You know, a dead animal that's full of maggots, right? We found one recently in our creek and, like, that's disgusting. So we know these emotions are normal. But what. What do you do to do? How do you deal with your heart when they come out and they're there? Let's say associated with a certain political group or a view or a moral stance? What do I do? How do I do this? Guys. Jim, what do you think, Sean?

 

Sean [00:14:18] Well, I would say one thing. I think the heart has to that work has to be done before you're in that situation. And disgust comes out when I see it. That's the point. I go. Okay, maybe I need to do a heart check. Maybe there's something internally with me that's broken now. With that said, there are ideas that are disgusting and they're ideas I should have contempt for. So we're not given this relativistic argument that ideas and positions don't matter. We're saying this is a dominant emotion that frames us. And what I found, like when it comes to men, I've role played a muslim, I've role played pro-choice, have role played a whole bunch of different, I would describe as non Christian positions. But what changes me is I know a lot of atheists. They're my friends. And so it makes it a lot harder for me to say, Well, atheists believe this and demonize them when I think of particular names that match up with atheists. I have friends who are pro-choice and I could not disagree more firmly with their position. I think it's bankrupt. I think it's wrong. I think it's immoral and I'll defend that. But these are people made in God's image. And at least how I talk about them and communicate with them is shaped by that relationship. So I think Tim is right. I'm bringing to the surface people are bringing their emotions into that setting, right? Do the atheist role play, but they're also bringing in a lot of faulty ideas of what other people believe and stereotypes that maybe they've got from watching a certain news channel, from reading a certain book, rather than really leaning in and at least trying to understand what someone believes and why they believe it. Then in most circumstances, I think we can be more gracious towards them.

 

Chris [00:16:09] It sounds like the opposite of depersonalization. What you're doing is making that person a human. You're assuming they have emotions and ideas, but not assuming all of the things that may be associated with. I have a general view of a Republican or a Democrat or a pro-abortion, as you know. And they therefore they're also this, this and that. And instead you're saying, hold on, let me get to know this person. I may not like their idea, but it's different. Is that right?

 

Sean [00:16:39] I think that's right. Look, this morning I was reading a book prepping for an interview about a lady making a case, a progressive Christian case for abortion. And she specifically says, I have an abortion. I had an abortion because of my faith, not in spite of it. Now, I think that that is as wrong and evil of an idea as somebody can hold to say that the Scripture supports such a thing. But as you read through the book, she describes the shaming of women who've had abortions. She describes the way Christians have treated her. She describes her marriage almost ended because of an abortion. That doesn't change my convictions in how firmly I speak about this. But there's a human being behind this trying to make sense of the world. And so I at least have to ask the question, how do I communicate in a way that doesn't dehumanize her and is most likely to be heard? Now, again, with that said, on issues like this, there's a time to speak prophetically in truth. We're not downplaying that. But it's like we lead with that so often. And it just it poisons the well.

 

Chris [00:17:55] So to speak. You guys need to buy the book and the stalemate, because not only does Dr. Sean and Dr. Tim, you know, go up, they give examples just like this and it's in there and they're just amazingly profound. They can transform relationships that you might have with somebody just by knowing and recognizing, Sean, those very central principles. Well, you know, when it comes to money and marriage, we all want clarity and confidence. Right. And especially unity with spouses. Right. I think, Lisa, that's why we get to work personally with Colby Gilmore of of Blue Trust.

 

Alisa [00:18:30] That's right. Colby Gilmore, along with other Blue Trust certified wealth strategist, offers personalized, biblically centered financial planning and investment management services, no matter what your income level is.

 

Chris [00:18:43] Lisa See that title twice. Blue Trust Certified. Well strategist that's a tough I'm.

 

Alisa [00:18:48] Not sure I could.

 

Chris [00:18:49] I know. So they put they do put clients best interests first and they don't sell financial products. I love that about them.

 

Alisa [00:18:56] Me too. And you know what? We highly recommend Colby Gilmore and Blue Trust. For anyone looking for both financial unity with your spouse and opportunities to increase your wealth and your generosity.

 

Chris [00:19:08] So if you guys want to check out Ron blue.com or reach out to Colby Gilmore at Colby.Gilmore@Ronblue.com that's Colby.Gilmore@Ronblue.com. I think you guys will be glad you did.

 

Tim [00:19:24] So let me just say two things real quick. One let's say a person gives a view I think is biblically wrong. Right? And even there's some disgust towards this view. Paul still is going to say there's versions of anger that he wants to set aside. Right? I mean, in Colossians three, Paul says, Now I want you to rid yourselves of such things as anger, rage, malice, slander of filthy language from your lips. So there's a righteous anger for sure. We can see Jesus doing that in the turning of the tables. But there's also a form of anger that Paul's identifying and saying, I want you to get rid of. That goes back to your question, Chris, I think is okay, once I identify that type of anger, how do I get rid of it? That's a great question and we try to dive into that in the book Spiritual Practices, Solitude, Confession, Forgiveness, Godly Counsel. And then the second one is, even if I think your view is wrong, like dead wrong, like anti-gay debacle, I then have to ask the question, What do I want to have happen in this conversation? Like, do I just want to confront this person and be done? Like I'm going to confront you and I don't care if we have a working relationship after this. But what if you want to confront that person but still have a working relationship or a family relationship? Then I think we get into what the book is talking about. I want to do perspective taking to understand what is fueling your perspective. And we call that bricolage understanding all the different pieces that went into forming your particular conviction or worldview. That's really important for me to understand.

 

Chris [00:21:01] Okay, Tim, give us an example and let's let's do something. Suppose we have an election that just is coming up for ending. Let's say hypothetically, let's say it's 2024. Hypothetically, Tim, you just learn now one of your good friends or one of your very close family members is going to vote opposite you. And they have very strong opinions. And tell me what it means to take their perspective. Why? I mean, I disagree with that position. What's the benefit? I don't get it. Let's say. And a listener goes, what does that mean? I have to take their perspective. So how do you do it?

 

Tim [00:21:36] Okay. Let me let's take a lot of hypothetical. I have a person I greatly respect and they said you can not read your Bible and vote this way. You can't do it. I really disagree with that characterization. But so so I can launch in right away and say, I think that's crazy and do what we call the transmission view. The transmission view is let me give you ten reasons. I think that statement is blatantly false. I think you actually can read your Bible and vote in the way that you're saying. I can't and I may very well vote that way. But that's not going to get us anywhere.

 

Chris [00:22:16] But a lot of people, I mean, they default to that, right? I mean. Right. I mean, that's the that's why your book so helpful is because the natural default is. Well, let me tell you why.

 

Tim [00:22:26] It's welcome to the stalemate.

 

Chris [00:22:27] Yeah, the stalemate.

 

Tim [00:22:28] So the ritual view precedes the transmission. Now, that would be help me understand why you feel so passionately about this. Help me understand what's happened in your life to lead you to this point. Tell me some of the people that are catching your ear, that whose opinion you really are buying into. I'm putting together a puzzle piece of how your conviction arose. The Harper Negotiation Project says the biggest mistake we make and boy, when they say the biggest mistake, the Harper negotiation project you listen is we only trade conclusions. We don't share how we arrived at the conclusion. I think we want to back it up a little bit and say, okay, obviously I disagree with that opinion. But help me understand how you got to that moment and the emotions attached with that. I think that's going to put it in a different tone wise, the conversation.

 

Chris [00:23:22] To me, it's one of the key things in therapeutic relationships, right? It's just saying help me to understand. And that perspective taking is that notion of. So this is what you think and really what you're doing. I think, Jim, I would agree is you would agree is you're getting to the emotion underneath that besides. Well, and they come up with some things like I had an abortion. That's why. Right. I believe that Christians need to work on shaming that they do it too much. It's it. But you wouldn't really get there unless you figure out shame or guilt or these important things that are happening when I might feel those when I take your perspective and go, Yeah, I wonder if I fall into the camp of shaming people who have had an abortion and bring that out in this.

 

Tim [00:24:11] Person and to feel your frustration. So imagine, I think an issue is as clear cut in Scripture as can be possible. Like it is a no brainer. It's that clear in Scripture. I'm talking to a guy who teaches at the Bible Institute of Los.

 

Chris [00:24:25] Angeles called My Own is disagreeing.

 

Tim [00:24:31] With me. And I think it's the biggest no brainer in the world. Jesus said it, I believe it. And I'm saying, Brother, I'm not sure Jesus said that. Well, he said it. I think you might be misinterpreting what he says. Well, welcome to really strong emotions, but I need to feel your frustration first and acknowledge this. I know this conversation must be hard because I appreciate your passion, your study, your conviction. But brother, I think we disagree on this one too. To acknowledge that is a key part of a communication climate.

 

Chris [00:25:04] Yeah, man, that's cool. It's got perspective taking. You'll read about it in the textbook. The textbook? The book that hopefully is a textbook at some point. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I think it'd be a great textbook for people out there. But in the stalemate, Tim, that's that's a that's one of the best things we can begin to do. You would say is that John, you guys did this and you do this in so many ways. I think your perspective taken starts when you act out some of these things with students and participate that. But this has affected you in many ways. Tell us the story of how your perspective taken has changed when you're dealing with an atheist. But they start to go, I like this guy, what do I know about him? And they are also having to do this and their eyes get opened at times. Like I used to paint you in a corner. I did not like you, but the way you do this is so kind. By the way, John, that's what struck me. One of the biggest critics that you have had is someone who, when they finally met, you said it turns out this guy is really a human and he listens to me and I.

 

Tim [00:26:10] Endorse the book.

 

Sean [00:26:11] And yeah.

 

Chris [00:26:13] Who is that guy? And it's amazing how just doing these things take in his perspective. What else have you found works that you have said? This is what my listeners, our listeners of this podcast need to do in addition to perspective taking. What do you think?

 

Sean [00:26:27] So here's the important thing. These are strategies that I think are biblical. They're rooted in communication theory and they work to have meaningful conversations with people. But you can't force anyone to have a conversation who doesn't want to. The rich young ruler Jesus let him walk away. So I've reached out to. And I've had conversations with atheist skeptics and been I thought is gracious. I could be give a platform, ask some questions and they've turned and canceled me and publicly critiqued me. And that hurts. Like that's not fun. I only mention that because you people, listeners might have family members or friends or coworkers who have, in a sense, canceled them. There's no guarantee when it comes to human beings with free will. But what I found, most people are open and willing to have good faith conversations on the issues that matter most. If we do it in the right time, with the right attitude and the right place and time, and I could probably tell stories until we're blue in the face of times that we have not done that you don't get to you don't get to write a book because you have it all figured out. In fact, writing this was somewhat convicted, and some people might think now this is in print. But some of the things are like just simply finding common ground with people. You see, Paul do this in Chapter 17 when he gives a speech at Mars Hill. He says, you know, men of Athens, I see that you are very religious. And then he quotes their poets positively not to call them heretics, not to say why their philosophy is wrong. He quotes some positively. Now he gets to the critique. But common ground builds bridges. It builds understanding. It humanizes. I'm going to tell people I'll stop. And audiences sometimes will say, okay, think about the last person you met for the first time. What happened? You probably said, Where are you from? I've been there. What do you do for a living? My uncle does that without me thinking about it. You look for common ground. Yet sometimes we as Christians feel like we have to tell people why they're wrong politically, why they're wrong morally. We lead with that and it shuts down the conversation before it began. So I'd say one last thing. This is one of my favorite things that I put in the book is that just listening to somebody doesn't mean you're affirming what they believe. Understanding doesn't mean affirmation. And that's freeing for people. I think.

 

Chris [00:28:59] That's great. You know, one of our favorite sayings, Tim and I, when we go out and speak in marriage stuff, it's better to be understanding than understood, right? It's better to be. And another one that I would use, John, in light of that, it's our personal favorite. We raise our kids with this mantra. We always told them when somebody comes over to our house as a guest and they walk in. What tends to happen with young kids is they want to show off everything, right? They want to show them their toy and they want to talk about their favorite movie. And they just they want to be the center of attention. And we tried somewhat successfully, I guess, to tell them this one phrase. It's better to be interested than interesting and you be interested. And so here's the way to do that. We said you ask questions. Somebody comes over our house, you are going to learn about them, what they think, what they like, what's their favorite movie. So I remember this couple. They come over, the faculty members available and our kids like six. And he looks at them. He goes, So what's your favorite movie? And the person there? I don't know. Do you like the movie? Like up. And they're like, Yeah, that's a great movie. What's your favorite thing at your job? And the person is like, Who are you, first of all? Okay. Somewhat successful. But I think the idea it's better to be interested than interesting doesn't mean I have to agree. I'm just interested in learning, taking a perspective, figuring out who you are, who shot at him. I love this. I mean, that's why this book is such perfect timing. Right? Right. I mean, it's just got this sense of speaking to our world and our culture today. And I think the next question is going to be it's easy to do that with strangers, but there's another level when it comes to somebody you love. I mean, first of all, we know the stat that most Republican, let's say, with politic politics marry a fellow Republican and most Democrats are going to marry a fellow Democrat if they're dating. And they're one opposite, they're like, okay, this isn't going to work, man, because it's there's too many things tied up in that. So we know there's this separation, but we're not marrying our family members, right? I got my mom or my dad or my brother, my uncle, and they just do few things very I can't divorce them. I want to I want to say, Lord, put in a divorce.

 

Sean [00:31:23] Are you.

 

Chris [00:31:23] Really famous? For what you know? But in general, we we have to live with that. And I think some of the guys you cover, what's one of the things out of the book that you're like, this is a reason, man, that has changed me or something that helped me when I wrote this book to reconsider and rethink some things or anything come to mind. You're like, Yeah, I had to really struggle with this, you know? Sean you said when I wrote this, I don't do this. Perfectly, but I had to work on a few things. And what comes to mind when you think about one of the things that you've helped this has helped you with?

 

Sean [00:31:58] Tim has a proverb He's drawn my attention to years ago that the purposes in man's heart are deep. And a man of wisdom draws it out. I'm an apologist. I'm a professor. So I launch into giving answers and have to remind myself there's a back story. What is that back story? So I was doing a live radio show last week and somebody calls in and on. Actually, the was on this book and somebody asks about talking to the dead and whether it's permissible or not. I'm thinking what is happening. And so I went to first. Samuel, 28, gave a theological answer, goes, okay, yeah, that's helpful because my brother just died last week. And I instantly thought this wasn't about theology. He is grieving his brother. So we launch into debates on the surface and we miss the deeper relational components such as Will you still love me if I don't agree with you politically? Are you embarrassing me in front of other people? Do I feel smart compared to you? Like there's so many emotional and psychological and relational things at play. If we just lean in and be other focused instead of self focused, be interested. Draw those things to the surface. That's when you're having a real conversation and really ministering to somebody.

 

Chris [00:33:14] That's wonderful. By the way, I use that definition in my dissertation title. It's on self-focused behavior and then our people more helpful and gracious and altruistic when they're self-focused versus other focus. That's what I want my dissertation part of. Dr. Tim Yeah.

 

Tim [00:33:29] I would say Shawn Boy, I tag off that for a second. So when Peter, you know, our favorite apologetic verse, always be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in you. That is the content part of communications. The reason I believe things, it's my backing, my support. But then he says with all gentleness and reverence, that's the relational side. So we know from comm theory that if the relational side is violated, the relational part of communication, which is the amount of respect, the amount of compassion and the amount of acknowledgment that is violated, people do not care about your content. So if that family member gives a political position opinion and I'm ready to go, like I'm like, man, I could crush that in a heartbeat, that that's the content level. But if I trip up the relational level, if that person feels disrespected, then you've just set back the relationship. So I think it is so wise that Peter would say both. And Paul has his own version. Speak truth content, do it in love, relational. And I think today we get so angry. We're so can we're so passionate with our political, theological, social convictions. I don't care about the relational. My job is to speak truth And if you get offended I'm sorry you are offended by the truth. And I just want to say interesting that the two great leaders of the church, Peter and Paul, both had their version of the content relational dialectic. And I think we need to keep that in mind, especially talking to family members who do not trip up the relational.

 

Chris [00:35:09] Tim, what a great note. Thank you, you guys both for being here. We're going to end this podcast right now. We don't have a lot of time, but thank you. It's called End the Stalemate. Dr. Tim will have Dr. Sean McDowell, by the way, who comes first? I think it's Dr. Schmidt.

 

Tim [00:35:23] He has 300,000 YouTube followers. I said, Sean.

 

Chris [00:35:27] I should go alphabetical. Come on. It's McDowell in your. Hey, thanks for joining us. We'll catch you next time.

 

Mandy [00:35:36] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.