In this episode, Chris and Alisa Grace explore how to navigate difficult conversations without damaging your relationships. They discuss practical steps for preparing your heart, regulating your emotions, choosing the right time and setting, and using the “affirmation sandwich” method to speak truth with grace. Whether you’re dealing with conflict in a marriage, friendship, workplace, or with a neighbor, this episode offers valuable advice to improve your relationships by fostering trust, clarity, and reconciliation.

Resources Mentioned:

• Speaker-Listener Quick Tip Card – A helpful tool for structuring healthy, two-way communication.
• Navigating a Difficult Conversation Quick Tip Card – A free, practical guide for preparing and having hard conversations.
• Free Relationship Advice – Submit your question and receive confidential, faith-based guidance from CMR’s team.
• Blue Trust – Certified Wealth Strategists – Biblically centered financial planning and investment management. (colby.gilmore@ronblue.com)

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• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: youtube.com/@biola-cmr

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About the Hosts:
Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

Mandy [00:00:01] Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships Let's get right into it.

Chris [00:00:11] Well, welcome to another podcast, Art of Relationships, sponsored by the Viola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. We're so glad to have you guys. There's a couple of questions that we always get that we feel like it's important to address. Probably the biggest one, or one of the biggest we get, Lisa, my amazing co-host on this podcast, Elisa Grace, Director of the Center for Marriage Relationships and my wife of over. The 75 years.

Alisa [00:00:42] Are you saying it feels like something?

Chris [00:00:45] It's only been 10, but I feel in my body, whatever. Good save, good save. Thank you so much. One of the questions we get is this. It's about hard conversations, right? All of us have to have hard conversations. I have one coming up. It's gonna be like, how do I navigate this? How do I speak truth with grace? If I don't, I think I'll feel, like many of you might, resentment, disappointment. It can build up into like, oh, just how you have this conversation. But thinking about having a hard conversation kind of causes a lot of stress in thinking about what if the relationship is ruined? What if I don't do this well? I don t like feeling these feelings but I got to do something with them.

Alisa [00:01:33] Or I'm gonna, I don't know, don't like it. Right, and it's important to have these kind of hard conversations because really it's the basis by which we form trust and intimacy, right? Because if there's some issue up here floating around between me and somebody else, and we never talk about it, then that leaves room for misperception, misjudgment. Maybe I'm mistaken about some of my assumptions or maybe they're mistaken. And if we don't ever talk about it, then we can't clarify, bring clarity to the situation and truth to the situations, and ultimately resolution and reconciliation, ultimately.

Chris [00:02:16] I love that, Lise, and this is about anything. In marriages, it could be about money, right? You could be holding these reservations that you've had about spending too much. One in marriage, you and I had to approach this, we're not going to talk about it today, per se. It's about intimacy in marriage. Like for example, how often should you be having sex in marriage? And if my expectations are being not fulfilled or yours aren't. It's like, oh my gosh, I have to talk rips talk about that like how often and when we had to deal with

Alisa [00:02:49] Yeah, Nick, it could be somebody at work. It could be a next door neighbor.

Chris [00:02:54] I see you got off the sex topic real quick, and we're at wedding and something like that. It's going to be a hard right turn. But don't you think we had a great conversation about that? Once we had the conversation. But it was hard talking about it. Sure. We could go weeks and months with hurt feelings, like...

Alisa [00:03:11] Well, in personality, sometimes you're more of a get it out on the table and let's deal with it, and I'm much more, oh, I want to avoid conflict. I want to keep peace at any cost, which really that is not healthy because peace at any cost is too costly.

Chris [00:03:27] Okay, so you have different personalities that come into play, different issues. So Lisa, what would you suggest would be some good advice? Let's just do it. Let's just give three or four pieces of good advice that we can give for those who need to have these hard conversations. What would you start with?

Alisa [00:03:44] Well, I think, foundationally, you've got to start preparing your own heart. And I think that means coming before the Lord with an open heart. That's Psalm 139, 23 and 24, search me, O God, and know my heart. Try me and know My anxious thoughts. And Lord, here's the situation, here is my perception of it, but Lord, I want to open to having a heart of humility. And that means starting with a heart posture of, you know what, Lord, I could be wrong about this. I don't think I am, but I could wrong. And so Lord, you search my heart. And if there's something I need to be aware of in myself, something I've done, something I'm responsible for, then Lord, I need you to bring that forward and just help me go into this with a clear conscience. And so I think it takes sitting with the Lord and being willing. To even say, Lord, I could be wrong about this. And if so, I need you to point that out and just prepare my heart to be James 1 19, quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to get angry.

Chris [00:04:57] So Lisa, that also means sometimes you or I can do this on my own. I go to God and search him and we start there. And this is the value of friendship and community to be able to find that trusted person to say, hey, can you help me search my heart? Lisa, I've asked you before, Lisa, I don't know what's going on in my heart. Let's say it's a conflict with somebody else, which has happened many times and I've said this to you. I don't know what's going on with me, I'm searching my heart, what do you think I'm feeling or what's happening and you're like, what am I feeling?

Alisa [00:05:34] Yeah, or you even invite me, hey, this is what I'm thinking. This is my perspective. Can you help me think through this? Am I missing something? Is there something I'm not aware of that it would be helpful for you to point out? Just what are your thoughts about it from your outside objective party perspective?

Chris [00:05:55] Yeah, and that's in a situation where let's say a conflict is with a third party and you're like coming alongside me in friendship, right? In this case, but if you're not married, you have a mentor or a pastor or a friend or a counselor, right, or somebody you trust and you want to go, all right, I'm searching my heart. What can I do now? All right, so we start there, right. What's this idea? What's some big beers? I'll start with one. How about the fear is, I'm not going to be understood, or I'll be misperceived, or they won't get it, right? Some of those are big fears. So what do we do with those, or how would we start? What's some good advice we would say? What's a way? How should they go in these fears, right, and that is, I guess, recognize that that's a common fear. It's a fear. Yeah, you could be mis-perceive. Yeah, you— Maybe the fear that you're gonna damage the relationship. Yeah, those are all normal fears, but don't let those overwhelm you if you have to have this hard conversation.

Alisa [00:07:04] Yeah, I think another fear is that, you know what? What if it turns out I'm wrong? Ooh, then I'm going to have to eat crow and that's never fun. And it's really hard. So going into a conversation, again, it's the root of that heart posture of humility, of being able to say, Lord, if I'm wrong, I need to be able to admit it. And so help me to be humble. Help me to teachable. And help me to be a good listener. Because instead of going into that conversation just loaded for bear, and you are coming in hot at an 11 or 12, it's really better to calibrate your emotions, go in, and I think the first thing when you're actually in that conversation is to be good listener

Chris [00:07:55] At least this is my problem, man. I process things quickly, I'm an external processor, but I can, my emotional temperature can get pretty high and I could just write out a quick email, you know, nothing bad, just like write it out. But one of the things that you and I have to put into place is check your emotions and I usually hit pause.

Alisa [00:08:19] And wait on that email 24 hours before you send it, right? That text, yeah.

Chris [00:08:25] If it feels like you're in that high emotional state, one of the things you're suggesting that we should do when I'm hearing you is, hey, write it down, maybe put it in a notes or a word doc, but don't send that text until your heart is ready or calm.

Alisa [00:08:42] Yeah, I think so too. And in that introspective time, even before you go and talk with that person, I thing it's important to sit with yourself and really tease out, what is it I'm hoping will be the outcome? What's my expectation of this situation? And where's that expectation coming from? Is it coming from a previous relationship? How I was treated, how I expect to be treated, maybe previous circumstances. Maybe it's some books that you've read or podcasts that you listen to that shape your expectations of other people or certain situations. And so I think it's important to sit with that and say, what do I really want the outcome of this conversation to be? What is it I'm hoping to clarify? What is that I'm helping to happen? And then evaluate, is that realistic? Is that a win-win for both of us? Or am I looking to get everything and you walk away with nothing? What is, what's something that we can walk away with that might be a win?

Chris [00:09:51] Win-win for both of us in this situation. I love that. And you mentioned one word in there, I think, at some point about perspective. Another one is, what am I hoping? And a harder one might, but a necessary one is, might the other person be thinking? How are they going to be? What's going on with them? How are going to possibly view this? Am I aware of all of their potential? Stressors and issues and taking their perspective, how might they react? That could be very helpful to go hump. Interesting. Now, we've somewhat under way that, right? Like, my perspective is right. I know what I want out of this, but maybe one check. What I hear you saying to his goal, well, you need to also consider... Their hearts. Where are they? How did they view this? What's going on with them? That is hard to do, but I think it's important.

Alisa [00:10:52] Yeah, and so you could guess before you go into that conversation what the situation might be for that other person, but really you want to invite them to express it. And so as you're going into that conversation, you really want to consider the setting as you are going in, right? Hey, Is this a good time for you?

Chris [00:11:18] Like for example, if you and I have conflict and there's a difference of doing this at 11 o'clock at night when you're ready for bed and I'm just you know talking and talking is not the best time for us. Right. But then again neither is seven in the morning. When you're running out the door. When someone's running out of the door, but maybe you would say hey can we have this conversation over coffee today? Would that be a good time? So that's what you mean by Can we do this at noon today? You have a little bit of space, I have a little bit space to think about that.

Alisa [00:11:48] Yeah, yeah, and so asking them is this a good time for you or when would be a good time for you and then consider the setting. Is this a kind of conversation you want to have in public like at a coffee shop or you know someplace where other people could possibly hear what's going on or do you mean more privacy and so you know choose your timing and choose your setting.

Chris [00:12:10] Oh, that's good because what that'll do is also prevent any, you know, further, you know, things coming in, like, I want to talk to you about this, but I can't do it here, And this isn't a good time. And sometimes, Lisa, giving people more time could be really helpful for that. Yeah, I think so, too. What else would you suggest that is helpful to know as we go through these?

Alisa [00:12:34] Well, I think as you get the conversation started, one method that is very helpful as you're starting a difficult conversation is we call it the sandwich method. It's where you offer an affirmation of the other person in some form or fashion. Maybe it's the way they work, their perspective, the job they've been doing. Just their personality something that you can affirm about them. That's relevant. So I might say

Chris [00:13:05] Can I just say that whenever we talk about money in this, I want you to know that I've sensed that you really do pay attention to our budget. You really do care about how much we spend. And this is important to you as it is me, right? That's a way of starting a typical conversation about money, but recognizing something they've done well.

Alisa [00:13:32] Yes, yes. And so you have the affirmation and then the meat of the sandwich is the hard thing you need to bring up. Okay, bring it up right now with money. Okay. Well, let me give the whole sandwich. So it's affirmation, then it's the meat, which is the heart thing you need to bring up, and then you want to close with another affirmation. So that's the sandwich. Bread is affirmation meat is a hard thing.

Chris [00:13:57] OK, so I started with, hey, I really know that this is as important to you, our budget. The way we raise our kids, discipline, the fact that you keep the room, you are aware of that the room we live in needs to be clean.

Alisa [00:14:16] And you've been making an effort at it and I really noticed that, yeah.

Chris [00:14:21] Then what's the me test?

Alisa [00:14:23] Than the meat, let's say, in the money situation. Well, since you brought it up, why don't you offer the meat? Well, I would say...

Chris [00:14:31] One of the things I think that I think we need to explore a little bit more is our understanding of how our savings account works, and a little understanding of when we take money that we need spend on certain items, I think, we need prioritize what is critical, what's important, what is necessary, all right, rent and the bills and the gas. But what are those extras where we can, sometimes, yeah, it's good, you can spend money, but at least I think sometimes what ends up happening is, we spend our discretionary money sometimes based upon the fact that we're doing okay, but it bothers me because I'm worried that you're spending discretionary. Without the proper thought of, well, some of this, if I come back and go there. And so it really bothers me.

Alisa [00:15:35] Okay, so let me go back because that was that was a little that was a lot that you were putting out there. So let me just make sure that that I heard your concern. First of all, you acknowledge that I've really been trying to watch our budget and you appreciate that. And you also noted that we've created a budget to pay our bills to do the things we need to do. And you're really glad that we're done that. And then what I hear you saying is that you've also noticed that sometimes you're not very comfortable with how I spend our non-discretionary money.

Chris [00:16:13] Is that what you're saying? The money we have discretion over. Like, okay, here's an example. We received a blessing of $500 out of the blue, right? It was kind of Christmas-related and you immediately thought, oh man, this is awesome. $250 of this, I could get to go spend on whatever I want. I'm going to go buy a dress. And you did. I think Lisa that my worry was, wow, that $500 the way I think would be awesome to augment our savings. Yeah. And you just kind of didn't, I felt like didn't give a lot of thought to our savings you just wanted to use that discretionary fund at yours and I think that bothered me a little bit because I thought $250 on my side would be great for savings.

Alisa [00:17:06] So what you're saying, Chris, is that when we got that $500 and I assumed that 250 of it was mine to do with as I wanted to.

Speaker 4 [00:17:17] Which it was, it is.

Alisa [00:17:19] That that you would have appreciated maybe if I talked to you first and we had maybe come up with a plan for are we dividing it or are we going to put this towards something else like so are you saying you that you wouldn't like for me to have consulted with you before I spent that And when I didn't do that, it made you feel quiet.

Chris [00:17:42] When you did do that, I guess it made me feel a little bit like this, that you don't care as much about saving for a rainy day as I do. And that you probably think about our money, but in this case, didn't give much time, I feel. And so I worried that, oh no, she's about to spend this. And that made me feel a little. Nervous and worried and concerned about our budget and savings. Yeah. So you're just so... It gave me a little bit of nervousness and worry that we were spending too much.

Alisa [00:18:28] So when I spent that money, it made you feel nervous. It made you felt a little insecure. And maybe you didn't say this, but I'm wondering, did it make you feel like ignored, that I didn't ask you? So yeah.

Chris [00:18:44] Like, why did she not ask me? Maybe not ignored, but yeah, that's a good word. Like, how come she doesn't weigh this as important? Or not considered you? That's not okay. So that right there, I think Elisa, is a good way to have a conversation where you clearly heard me, you tried to repeat what I said, you try to put in emotions, and I tried to supply them of what was going on.

Alisa [00:19:09] And then I also set aside my rebuttal. I didn't try to justify, I didn't try to argue. I was sitting here really listening intently to understand what your perspective was, and I tried to set aside my thoughts of why I disagree, why I don't think that that's correct, but I'm setting that to the side, right over here, and really just listening to your perspective. When I'm able to reflect that back to you, how did that make you feel?

Chris [00:19:41] Yeah, it feels wonderful feels like you're like while I may be defensively coming You know like our buddy and and if you know kind of pointing at you you need to fix this I think doing it that way kind of is a key point in handling this with grease Well, you know, when it comes to money and marriage, we all want clarity and confidence, right? And especially unity with spouses, right. I think Lisa, that's why we get to work personally with Colby Gilmore of Blue Trust.

Alisa [00:20:17] That's right. Colby Gilmore, along with other Blue Trust certified wealth strategists, offers personalized, biblically centered financial planning and investment management services, no matter what your income level is.

Chris [00:20:30] Lisa say that title twice blue trust certified well strategist. That's a time. I'm not sure I could I know So they put they do put clients best interest first and they don't sell financial products. I love that about them

Alisa [00:20:42] Me too. And you know what? We highly recommend Colby Gilmore and Blue Trust for anyone looking for both financial unity with your spouse and opportunities to increase your wealth and your generosity.

Chris [00:20:54] Yeah, so if you guys want to check out ronblue.com or reach out to Colby Gilmore at colby.gilmore at ron blue.com that's colby dot gilmore at rong blue dot com I think you guys will be glad you did.

Alisa [00:21:16] Now, let me ask you this, Chris, just for our listeners and our viewers, how do you have this kind of conversation with somebody that maybe doesn't have the relational skills to know that they need to listen, to understand, to set that aside and to reflect back or to even be able to share their emotions like you did without coming in hot and just attacking?

Chris [00:21:43] No, that's great. None of us are born with that ability. Some of us don't have parents that taught us that. Maybe we didn't learn that in a class, you know, in college. We have, I think, one of the best things you ought to do is go to the cmr.biola.edu and check out one of ways and one of number of articles. Of blogs, video clips, and video clips of podcasts that we have on how to do this. So go read those. Go check them out is what I would suggest. We can link to some of them in our show notes. So Lisa, yeah, what you did with that is you handled this kind of, you know, a little not defensiveness, but a little bit of rebuttal with grace. And I think we should recommend that's what people do.

Alisa [00:22:28] You know, it makes me think about one really hard conversation that I had with a friend one time that, well really, it's a very close friend, and it was about her weight. And she had gained some weight in a relatively really short period of time. And she's still beautiful. I mean, it has nothing to do with that. Honestly, I was worried. Is there something physically happening? Is there's something that maybe you need to go to the doctor and check on? But I was so afraid to bring it up to her because I didn't want to hurt her feelings. I didn't want to make her feel ugly. And so,

Chris [00:23:14] And this was a friend you had a great relationship with, where you used to talk about these kinds of things that you had in the past.

Alisa [00:23:20] Yes, and we did and so one of the one of things that I did as I started this conversation was I asked her permission And I just said, you know, there's there's something really really hard That I want to talk with you about that I'm a little scared to bring it up because I don't want to hurt your feelings. I don't want to make you feel bad But I'm really scared and I'm real concerned and so even though I'm afraid to bring this up, I really feel like I need to because I love you and I'm concerned about you and so could I have your permission to bring this up?" And of course she said, yeah, no problem. And so I was able to, you know, share my concerns. You know, is there maybe something to go to see the doctor about something physically, hormonally going on? Or, you know, or is it something else? I just, I'm worried about you because I love you. So that's the sandwich, right? I love, you I'm concerned. I'm a little bit afraid to bring this up, if I'm honest, because I'm afraid how it might come across and make you feel, but here's the me, is that I'm worry, I've concerned. I've noticed you've gained some weight in a short amount of time. You're always beautiful. You dress so beautifully. You always look so put together. I'm just worried that is there something medically? That you might want to check on because, yeah, I'm just concerned for your health.

Chris [00:24:50] No, that's a great sandwich.

Alisa [00:24:52] And she took it very well. I mean, it did hurt. It did sting to hear that. And she said that. She said, you know, because she got tears in her eyes. And I said, can you tell me, I see your tears. Can you tell what you're feeling right now? And she says, well, you know, yeah, it's hard to hear. It stings. I'm aware of it. But she said, yeah. I think you could be valid that maybe I need to go see my doctor. And so she said, and she ended up saying, I really appreciate, you know, it's the kiss of a friend that sometimes can hurt, but she was appreciative and she actually did go get it checked out and it turned out there was something that was actually going on that she was able to get some treatment and she needed to pay attention. But man, that was a hard conversation to have. Yeah.

Chris [00:25:46] And Lisa, it was handled so well. And thank you for, you know, blurring the identity and using it as a friend, because it was really about me. When you had that conversation, I was eating ribs.

Alisa [00:25:58] No, I was.

Chris [00:25:59] I was in the middle of dicking your fingers, I was licking my fingers with barbecue sauce and you said, girl, let me talk. And I'm like, no, sir, you did well. I went in, the doctor said, yeah, you got an issue. Stop eating. Exercise more.

Alisa [00:26:13] That's not what happened. But thank you for saving face for me, yeah.

Chris [00:26:20] You've mustered it up, you've paused, you prayed, you proceeded, you got some input, you had the conversation, you thought about the sandwich method.

Alisa [00:26:29] Yeah and you want to assume the best of the other person. If you're bringing something that's really difficult, something that maybe they've done, that they've hurt your feelings and you're bringing it up, maybe you want, you want come in not only with that heart of humility, but the assumption of the best for the other. Like maybe you had some misinformation, maybe you're having a bad day, maybe, you don't feel good.

Chris [00:26:55] I certainly say these you

Alisa [00:26:56] No, you're thinking them to your own self, yeah. And at least that's part of the perspective taking. Or maybe you didn't mean to hurt my feelings. You know, I know you would never mean to harm my feelings, I know that you're an awesome person and you're kind.

Chris [00:27:12] So, part of that, I think you agree, is what it means to take perspective of them. What do they think you're doing? And in so doing, you want to assume the better part is done the worst.

Alisa [00:27:23] Because that's going to really temper the way you go into that. And that's part of the affirmation is assuming the best as you go in before you give them the meat. You give them that bread of affirmation.

Chris [00:27:36] So you've gotten to that day, you've got to that conversation, you have employed some of these things. Now what? Now what, right? How, when this, what do you do, you know, after the conversation now? Yeah. What's the next step?

Alisa [00:27:52] I think what you do is you wrap up the conversation or you finish your perspective of it and you've offered it out there. I think you want to offer appreciation and a thank you for listening. You know, I know this isn't an easy conversation to hear, to talk about, even from your perspective, certainly not from mine, but I really appreciate that you were willing to listen. You were willing to consider my perspective. And even validated it for me. So, you know, thank you. I really appreciate that.

Chris [00:28:25] Yeah, that's really good. A situation, you know, for me recently was a disagreement and I just kind of you know maybe was a little too emotionally you know invested in something and you know sent off a couple of texts. In pausing and reflecting, you now I did speak truth but I don't know if I did it with grace and I remember you advising me, Chris you might want to go ahead and tell the person that you still enjoy them, they're still a good friend and thank you for giving me the space. And the grace to handle this and hear it as a process. I really appreciated that. I just want you to know it was important to.

Alisa [00:29:04] And what about if you've gone into this conversation and you haven't handled it well? You haven't done the affirmation sandwich. What do you do if you're the one that messed it up? How do you handle it?

Chris [00:29:23] Well, I think the repair attempts would be just simply acknowledging that, you know, I think I could have done this better, I really am sorry. I wish I had said it this way, I wish they had been able to calm down at first. There's a number of things, but I think you just kind of maybe even use those nine magical words, I was wrong, I'm sorry, please forgive me, right? And then you just make that repair. You know, this, it's been a tough time, and I really worry about that, but this is what I'm hoping for, and what I didn't accomplish and what didn't do well, so I'd like your forgiveness. So as we get ready, Lisa, to wrap this up, what are some final thoughts for you?

Alisa [00:30:05] Um, I guess it would be to, whether you're the one bringing the hard issue or you're the one hearing it and having to receive something hard. I think it's just, as brothers and sisters in Christ, as friends and family, we just need to give each other a lot of grace. You know, we're going to mess this up. We're not always going to get it right. And to cut each other some slack, you know. And if I messed it up. I would want the other person to give me some grace. I wouldn't want them to rub my nose in it. And so I don't want to rub their nose in either, right? And so giving space, giving grace that we're gonna mess up, relationships, they're messy. And they don't always follow the formula of what's best. And so really giving grace and being quick to ask for forgiveness and then being quick to extend.

Chris [00:31:05] Oh, and then add on to that what James says that not only quick to extend forgiveness and ask for forgiveness, but also quick to listen, right, put to sleep, so to get angry. Of course, these are with common, you know, not common, but everyday conflicts that we You know, if there's other things going on that are deeper, they might require professional help, right? If there's abuse or convictions. Yeah, those are not these kinds of things.

Alisa [00:31:29] Or even if it's something that's ongoing and you keep trying, you keep trying, and you're trying to get some movement forward in this situation and you are just stuck. Maybe you need to bring in that disinterested, professional third party that can really give you wise advice, help you with some strategies, help see different perspectives. And you may not get that from the people closest to you because Like, let's say if you were in conflict with somebody else, you might not always get the wisest advice from me because I love you. I'm gonna wanna defend you and I'm going to be in your corner no matter what. And so, you know, you might wanna get a disinterested third party and get their insight. That's great.

Chris [00:32:13] I think that's awesome advice. At least I think people, if they listen to this, hopefully will be able to go with a little bit easier, calmer, hopeful hearts if they do some of this with those difficult conversations that we all face.

Alisa [00:32:28] Yeah, and you know, here at the Center for Marriage and Relationships, we actually have these things that we call Quick Tip Cards, and this one is called Navigating a Difficult Conversation. And you can actually go online and download that PDF if you would like it, or you can just go on there and read it and get some tips that we talked about today that kind of more succinctly. Did you say free? Free. F-R-E-E. Of re-relationship advice.

Chris [00:32:58] Yeah, it's also because we have donors that help provide some of these things, but they could also Venmo us if they if it's worth a couple of hundred dollars Absolutely

Alisa [00:33:07] put another date, but you know that also reminds me at the center we also offer what we call free relationship advice. So we can be that disinterested third party for you and so all you have to do is go on to our website at cmr.biola.edu. Look under free relationship advice and you can sign up. We have a licensed marriage and family therapist, we have a pastoral care and counselor. And we are also available, but we would love to be a resource and a help to you if we can be.

Chris [00:33:40] Yeah, so check all that out. Thanks for plugging the website and the services we offer. And am I had good stuff?

Alisa [00:33:48] That's right. So thanks for joining us on another episode of the art of relationships, and we'll see you next time.

Mandy [00:33:58] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.