Stalemates, Compassion, and Truth with Guests Sean McDowell & Tim Muehlhoff — pt. 2

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In this episode, Chris Grace sits down with special guests Sean McDowell and Tim Muehlhoff, co-authors of End the Stalemate, to tackle the challenge of navigating difficult conversations in a polarized world. Together, they share practical strategies like building relational capital, showing compassion, and knowing when and how to share truth. With personal stories and real-world examples, Chris, Sean, and Tim equip listeners to engage in meaningful, respectful dialogue even on divisive topics. Whether you're working through tough discussions with family, friends, or colleagues, this episode offers tools to strengthen relationships while staying true to your convictions.

Resources Mentioned:

• End the Stalemate - A guide to fostering respectful and productive conversations despite deep differences.
• Sean McDowell's YouTube Channel - Demonstrating effective dialogue with people of differing beliefs.
• Blue Trust - Biblically centered financial planning and investment management services. Contact Colby Gilmore (colby.gilmore@ronblue.com) for personalized financial advice for all income levels.
• John Gottman Resources - Expert insights on improving communication and relationships. 

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
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• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: youtube.com/@biola-cmr

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

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Mandy [00:00:00] Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

 

Chris [00:00:12] So welcome to another edition of our Relationships podcast. I'm here with some guests today. Lisa's not joining us because she stepped aside because of the just the deep wisdom in this room. She's like, Chris, I'm so smart. And why's that? When you bring in people like that, I don't want them to feel diminished. And I said, Lisa, I agree with you. We had to bring in two yahoos, two ringers, just because, you know, sometimes we have to step below our level and see what.

 

Tim [00:00:43] Sean this is what I had to deal with for years doing the Carter Relationship podcast, The Welcome to My World.

 

Chris [00:00:50] You should have met these two before they were my students. Sean, I was worried about you. I mean, you were this skinny undergrad and he's like. And I'm like, He's going nowhere unless he takes some more of my classes. True story, though. Shad, it's good to see you again.

 

Sean [00:01:05] Just for the record, I did okay in life, and that was the only class I took with you.

 

Tim [00:01:11] Are you a psych major?

 

Sean [00:01:12] No, I just. It's like, what? A one man call. I was calm.

 

Tim [00:01:15] You were calm. My gosh. She was calm. You saw the light. He came towards the light.

 

Chris [00:01:21] So, Dr. Tim, you have Dr. Sean McDowell. Thank you guys for joining us again. Listen, we were talking about your book called End the Stalemate. And I think last time we ended on a point that I really want to now dive into. And Tim, you were talking about this relational capital that we build up with people, right? If I don't have, you know, a certain level of a relationship with somebody, then I can argue a content and never see them again or really care about them. But there's something important when I disagree with somebody that I deeply care about and they care about me, it's hard because sometimes I'm thinking, this idea is so important to me. This concept. Let's say you know that it's just about abortion and I'm strongly in favor of, you know, the restrictions. I believe this biblical view of life is important because it starts at conception and okay, but the person that I love and care about doesn't feel that way. Tim, you ended by talking about this idea of if there's not respect there, if there's not an acknowledgment of their position, and then you had another one. If there's not.

 

Tim [00:02:33] The amount of compassion.

 

Chris [00:02:34] And then compassion for them, that we're going to start off on the wrong foot. And that's why. And the stalemate so important, Tim.

 

Tim [00:02:41] And we're huge fans of John Gottman. Gottman says the first 30s establishes the relational level for the entire conversation. Boy, think about that. The first 30.

 

Chris [00:02:52] By the way, to support that, they found that professors in the classroom, students ratings of a professor at the end of the year correlate almost exactly with the students first 30s of looking at their professor and leave it to them. They'll watch her, they'll see her talk and they just need about 30s to figure out if they're going to like the class or not. And it correlates with the end of the year. How good they rated like, yeah, she'll be like an eight out of ten. And sure enough, she's an eight out of ten at the end of the year by most students. So we do some very fast computational things, especially when it comes to interpersonal.

 

Tim [00:03:28] Okay, so let's make this really practical. All my grad work was at a secular university. You and C, Chapel Hill absolutely loved my professor was actually my academic mentor. Awesome woman on the top feminist theorists in the world. And I'm strongly pro-choice. So let's say she actually said at Lucille's having pizza she said, My body, my choice. Okay, now stop. I can immediately counter that with the transmission view saying, That's crazy. It is your body. But we put limitations on your body all the time. They're just flat out things. Just because it's your body you can't do, you can't drive 110 miles an hour with your body on the highway, you're going to get thrown in jail. Right? I can immediately counter her and say that view I do not agree with, but I just kissed the relational goodbye. Right. To rather say to her, okay, you know how much I respect you? And she does. We're still friends to this day. Help me understand. The passion behind this perspective. And again, this is a smart woman. And yet what she said, I think is just blatantly. Something I just disagree with on the intellectual content level. But if I trip up that relation or she starts to think he doesn't respect me anymore, right? He's not acknowledging my perspective. Then the whole conversation just went sideways. I think there's literally dinner tables across America where people are saying, forget the relational, I'm going to crush your argument. I think what you said is so blatantly wrong. I'm setting aside the compassion, the respect, and I'm going right after your argument. And let me just remind people, nobody's just a pure cognitive machine. All of us have feelings, and those feelings get tripped up. You're doing damage to that relationship?

 

Chris [00:05:23] Yeah. So you work on that? Sean, What do we do when we find ourselves in that situation? I mean, you guys wrote this book together, and you figured out why we. First of all, I think you two disagree on 1 or 2 things we do, but and we can talk about that. But I'd rather keep this civil and I don't want to play referee right now.

 

Tim [00:05:43] For me, one of us has a black hat, by the way.

 

Chris [00:05:45] About. And Shawn, you played basketball so I could take both of you easy at that point. Shawn, when you have this relational component in play, what have you learned? How do you do this now with somebody that you care for deeply, like Tim said? And what's the process that you go through that can help our listeners?

 

Sean [00:06:04] Well, I have a few mental things. First off, if that's at a pizza place and somebody says that, I'm asking myself, is this the right place? Is this the right context? Yeah. How productive is this going to be? And it depends. If it's just the two of us, we said, hey, let's get some pizza and talk about life. Sure. If this is a birthday party, if other people around people are playing games, debating abortion is probably not the right, even though somebody said that. Now, most I might say, you know what? I'm really intrigued by that statement you just made. This is probably not the best place, but let's get coffee at some point and talk about it and hear what you think the other person might pass, but that's probably what I would do. I also want to make sure I die on the right issues. I think we see this online. I think we see in person people just nit pick and push and they die in secondary issues. That's in part what wrecks the relationship. So I'm always ask yourself, is this really a core issue? I want to potentially sacrifice the relationship or not necessarily sacrifice, at least put it in a somewhat of a precarious situation. Is it worth doing that or not? That's a question I ask. The other thing I would say about this is, in principle, in communication, the simplest way you could put it is you have a sender, you have a message, and you have the receiver. And I think most Christians hear something like My body, my choice, and they hear, that's a message. They think about themselves as a sender, not what could I say to potentially influence this receiver? Or other people listening in. They're more about, I want to make a point. I want to own this. You're wrong. And we're not even thinking about how do I communicate in a way that it might be heard. And so I have a voice in the back of my mind when I say I do this perfectly. But I'm often saying sometimes in conversations people say stuff on like I know blatantly that you're wrong and I could humiliate you right now. And what good would that do? Because you know what? There's been times right and wrong and people have either done that or held back. And that's an act of grace towards somebody. What do I win if I humiliate that person in front of others? We just don't ask these kind of questions. We just react and emote and don't make any progress.

 

Tim [00:08:28] Shannon What that made me think of Dallas Willard, who is at USC, a brilliant philosopher of spiritual formation for sure. Gavin Ortman Actually, I was going to take him to lunch and he said, Come to my freshman seminar. One amazing Dallas Willard is doing a freshman seminar. That's pretty cool. But a freshman was pushing back on Dallas Willard. They were about to end the class and he's really pushing on. And Dallas is not saying anything as they're walking in the parking lot. Gavin goes, Dallas, you kind of crushed him. What was going on? Willard said, Yes, I'm practicing the discipline. I'm not always having to have the last word. And it was a class, right? See, we forget that that family member. You've got time to not always have the last word because you're going to see him next Christmas. You're going to be at family get togethers. I think we need to have the long view of, you know, this time I'm not going to push back. I'm not going to always have to have the last word as I'm the debate team in college. That is so hard for me and in my family. It's actually a joke because I am the king of getting that last word in. Right. And I thought that was beautiful spiritual discipline of somebody with the intellect of a Dallas Willard saying, I'm going to let this freshman finish their thoughts. I may pick it up later, but I'm just going to let the objection lay there. I don't need to respond right now. But the wisdom of the proverbs would, I think, applaud that.

 

Chris [00:10:08] Yeah, And there are some proverbs that come to mind. Right. And about humility, about the notion of listening and letting. Yeah. Yeah. How do we do that, then? Shawn First of all, Tim, this idea of how do we apply that wisdom, especially, you know, when it comes to like this, what is shoes? Shawn I'll ask you this because you mentioned it. You only want to pick a few in the back of your mind on the Hill today on. Well, what Hill's in this day and age and sometimes does it feel like if I don't push back, Tim, that I that people feel weak or like they let something go or they're going to be walked on or that they're going to lose some important thing. Right. I mean, it's like if I don't push back on this and I showed you military, it's almost as if I'm just going to cave in. I feel like a week back, a week boned Christian, you know, with no backbone.

 

Tim [00:11:06] Okay. Let me say this real quick. I don't think I've ever publicly share this story. I was really only racking my brain. Okay. I'm doing my masters at USC, Chapel Hill. You teach right away at USC, Chapel Hill. You get handed a public speaking class, like for your first semester. I waited till the very end of the semester and I came out and said, I'm a Christian. I'm actually on staff for the Campus Crusade for Christ. I did all my grad work while on staff with group. So the next week they're all doing their final speeches. Okay. So just I just want you to understand the context. I've just come out and said, I'm a Christian and I'm going to be grading your speeches. First woman up. Hand to God, She stands up, holds up a Bible and says, the holy word of God throws it on the ground and kicks it across the classroom, gets to the end, kicks it back. Pages are ripping. The Bible. And I'm sitting there looking at her going. You did not. I mean, I just told you I was a Christian and you're kicking this Bible across. I was attacked. But then but then, you know, so I love what you said, Sean. We don't live out all the all the things we want in this book. But every once while the Holy Spirit shows up. And I really felt impressed by the Spirit. Say, dude, chill. And she got it and said, My kid sister came out being gay and was excommunicated on Christmas Eve and it crushed her. And if that Bible they justify that using that Bible, that's a sick book right there. And I just sat there looking at her. And afterwards I asked to speak to her. And again, she knows this is my Christian Prof. And I just said to her, That's pretty courageous. That's pretty courageous. I mean. Wow. And I'm really sorry that happened to your kid sister. And she was shocked.

 

Chris [00:13:01] Looking at just that. You were shocked. You listened to her or at least acknowledged her pain.

 

Tim [00:13:06] I mean I mean, if you were to ask her, do an exit interview with her, do an exit interview with her, how do you know? But you know what I mean. Where do you think your Christian professor thought of you kicking the bottle? She would have said, I think you think it's wrong. I would have said bingo. You absolutely know. I think it's wrong. So I didn't need to go with the obvious response. Now, listen, this is the Book of Proverbs. Maybe in one situation answer for According to the folly. Right. And then in another one, don't. I chose to show compassion. She not say the obvious that obviously I disagree with what you just did. Come on, get out of here. But I. I chose to show compassion. Now, you had a reaction to that?

 

Sean [00:13:45] Yeah. No. What do you say? One of my favorite things right in this book is we actually disagree. Not just on 1 or 2 things. The last two chapters in the book, we're kind of going back and forth. Yeah, we did an hour long dialog friendly debate on whether Christians should use pronouns or not. But because there's a relationship mutual respect here, we can disagree and push and have humor.

 

Tim [00:14:05] Like even have some humor.

 

Sean [00:14:07] Yeah, of course I do. Putting that. That's for sure. Just kidding. That was a shot of you. But so here's what I would say, and I realize. It's what you said the moment maybe you do differently. I don't know if I would describe that as courageous. I would use the term gutsy. I would say that's really okay. Okay. But courage. I didn't know if you would die in that hill or not. Like and this is one of the discussions we've had, like the words we used really matter. And I realized in that moment, it's like I'm leading in compassionately. So I want to see it as this person does and not die on that hill. But words matter. But nonetheless, I love that. And I would lean in and I go, tell me the backstory. How did you expect me as a professor to be like, How important is your grade to you? Like what? What other Christians do you know? Have you actually read the Bible? Like, I'm just interested in that back story. And not enough Christians? Do we get mad? We get angry, we flunk them. And then if her issue is that brokenness, we just made it worse by responding in anger. That's why I think last point for forget on cancel culture want the whole first chapters about why do we have a cancel culture? And I think part of it is we have people who are hurting. So many respond with outrage and hurt. We just furthered their sense that Christians hate me and Christians have hurt me and we're just playing right into the hands we don't want to play into.

 

Tim [00:15:34] And Chris, this is what I think the book is really about. So I can imagine two Christian M.A. students as professors watching the exact same thing happen. One goes, Listen, I'm so sorry what happened to your sister, but you can't be kicking the Bible around in my class. There's part of me that would understand that totally, but I went the different way. So that's a stalemate in the sense is one Christian can look at what another Christian voted or how they believe on certain issues and say, Dude, I did that totally different than you did. But can we still live in unity with each other and understand each other? I think that's what Paul is saying. Romans 14, with the Jewish and Gentile believers. So but but Christians were not doing a great job. I mean, one comes out and condemns the other, saying, sure, there's no way you should have let that happen in your classroom. And I'm condemning you for doing that. So I love what you said. Our language can set up whether that relationship has a chance to work or not or whether there's going to be a schism.

 

Chris [00:16:36] Well, you know, when it comes to money and marriage, we all want clarity and confidence. Right? And especially unity with spouses. Right. I think, Lisa, that's why we get to work personally with Colby Gilmore of of Blue. Trust.

 

Mandy [00:16:51] That's right. Colby Gilmore. Along with other Blue Trust certified wealth strategists, offers personalized, biblically centered financial planning and investment management services, no matter what your income level is.

 

Chris [00:17:04] Lisa See that title twice. Blue Trust Certified. Well strategist that's a tough.

 

Mandy [00:17:09] I'm not sure I could.

 

Chris [00:17:10] I know. So they put they do put clients best interests first and they don't sell financial products. I love that about them.

 

Mandy [00:17:16] Me too. And you know what? We highly recommend Colby Gilmore and Blue Trust. For anyone looking for both financial unity with your spouse and opportunities to increase your wealth and your generosity.

 

Chris [00:17:29] So if you guys want to check out Ron blue.com or reach out to Colby Gilmore at Colby.Gilmore@Ronblue.com That's Colby.Gilmore@Ronblue.com. I think you guys will be glad you did. Wow. Yeah. No. What is interesting to me, Tim, is you put a physical picture. You know, you had you had a living physical picture of a woman cooking a Bible. Right. But frankly, how many people in their minds, that's exactly what they're doing when they're talking to you. That's exactly what they think. You know, they're not going to stand there and kick the Bible. But in their mind, they're saying this is the worst, most evil book out there. It's led to all of our problems. And and that's the kind of people that you're saying. How do we now deal with that? You're talking about you guys talking about well, we have to bring it out. We have to at least understand. But I think, Shawn, what you're saying and Tim is the important part is getting to a point where we understand why did this happen, Why you ask this way. Allow me to understand your heart. Help me to understand what's happened to you in life. Shawn you use that word that is made you, in this sense, so hurt, hurt, so pained by this, what's going on? And that might be one of the secrets to actually winning this person, because they probably talk to a lot of Christians who never want to go there.

 

Sean [00:19:02] I just think that's a very different conversation. I'm an apologist, so I have to like I do fall into this, you know, kind of book that is it's inspired. Here's the case that is true. Like, that's God's word. Like, I can default into that. But if I'm reasoning on her for the case for Christianity and underlying it is that book hurt me and my family, none of it is going to be heard. That's the real issue for her. Now, she has a faulty view of this, and at some point we need to challenge it. But what's the best way to do so when someone's been hurt to lean in and just like you said a while ago, take away somebody's perception of Christians, be compassionate, be understanding. Listen. And then the temperature goes down and then you start to lean in and at some point have the conversation. You know, what the Bible really says about sexuality. Maybe your family was abusing it, not really using it the way it's supposed to and unravel those things. But if you don't lead the way Tim did in this case, you don't have the opportunity to have that conversation.

 

Tim [00:20:06] And let me give you another example of this. I've never shared this about my marriage before. No kidding.

 

Chris [00:20:12] I did not get it.

 

Tim [00:20:15] Tony. Sorry. So go back to my academic mentor. Okay? She's an adult convert to Buddhism. Okay. So when she shared that, by the way, the pizza place was fine for us because that's where we'd go to have all these great talks in a back room. Right. But I love what you said is, hey, that might not. Pizza Hut may not be the best place to have.

 

Chris [00:20:34] And I guarantee you it's not. Okay.

 

Tim [00:20:36] So she so she shares with me, I converted from Christianity to Buddhism. Now, there could have been part of me that said, okay, let me just can I when I understand about Buddhism, let me lay out my big objections about Buddhism, you know, rebirth and and nirvana, all that kind of stuff. But I didn't. And again, we're telling you that some of the things that worked, we could share things that didn't work forever. I said, Well, tell me more about that. She goes, I was so sad that Christianity didn't care about women. That's gone. I mean, immediately I could have gotten defensive. And I said, okay, unpack that. She goes, you know. Buddhism believes that all life is sacred, including men and women. And I think Christianity, you know, I was at this church and they sent all their money to missions overseas. And yet women in the church were being abused, were hurting. Wow. And they never lifted a finger. And I looked at her and I said, I'm really sorry that that church did that. And then I said this to her. I said, Do you want one of the oldest books of the New Testament? It's Book of James. James answers the question with True religion, the side of God care for women in distress. And she goes, That's in the Bible. I go, yeah, right. So again, that's the not that there isn't a critique of Buddhism that needs to eventually happen, but that's the transmission view. The ritual view is points of contact. I spoke about the fact that you're compassionate towards women. So Jesus, those points of contact are really important in the initial stages of a person.

 

Sean [00:22:11] Here's an interesting question. I mean, I think your response is great. I'd say I would say if you ever thought about how Buddha treated women and compared the Buddha to Jesus, if you ever just thought about that and looked into it, it's just a question. It's not putting somebody on the defensive. Right. But it's a way of leaning into that relationship rather than giving eight reasons why and shut it down. You're asking questions. And of course, the Buddha abandoned his family actually to go get enlightened. And Jesus still today could pass the MeToo movement because of how gently and lovingly, respectfully he treated women. But that's unraveling some of the hurt and the pain. So really, the root issue for her is like hypocrisy amongst Christians. That's the root of it. They said one thing, did another, didn't really live out their principles and treat Christians well. So I'm going to Buddhism.

 

Tim [00:23:00] So please don't think our book is Sean would never get to share that about the Buddha. Right? And that's a fair critique of the Buddha, right? But we're just saying maybe the timing is when that critique comes up, because I would say that's right. That's a totally fair critique of the Buddha, and eventually I'm going to bring that up. But a wise man knows that words are like jewelry, and I'm putting together this right. That's kind of what we're saying. And then the stalemate is construct this conversation content, relational.

 

Chris [00:23:31] No, I think you guys are both hitting that very important point about your book. And a, it's not as if we you stop with perspective taking in, interested in understanding. It's because you love them so much. You want to do that you want, but it doesn't mean that it ends there. It means that you're also able, through this now more solid relationship to bring truth to light. That's right. And you and I love that book. It's not like, everybody, as Christians, you just need to get out there and be empathic, empathic. You need to, you know, keep your relationship strong by understanding and their back story. And yeah, that's that is the first step. But it doesn't end there because the truth is the light, right? And then we have the opportunity. And I think that's why your book is so cool because you guys have both worked on this. John From an apologetic standpoint, Tim, from just your whole history and background and dealing with conflict and groups in conflict, you'd go check out their other books to find this. But it's also a way in which we know we're building that relationship for one reason, because we believe the answer of the truth and the life falls in who Jesus was and in the Bible. And because of that, we're going to point them at some point and allow the Holy Spirit to open their eyes, remove the scales not just from me, but from all of us. And so and.

 

Tim [00:24:57] This is all going to take practice. So one cool thing we did with the book is we created a website and the stalemate Dicom where you practice perspective taking so it's totally free. You don't need to about the book but please buy a thousand copies for purchase. Right but you don't need to about the book but you go there and this time economy you actually practice perspective. Taking a look with perspectives we think a couple of them you're going to disagree with and that's a great moment to then practice some of the things we're talking about in the book. Yeah.

 

Chris [00:25:26] And some of you listeners, when you buy the book this weekend, I was at a conference in Colorado and Tim, we gave away a copy of one of your books and I always sign it for them and I always say, Just bring it back. And I always say, I always sign the same thing. I always say, I taught him everything he knows. You're welcome. And so I get I've seen so many. Sean, I love you. I'm a do the same. Sean, last thoughts on this again book and the stalemate. You guys coauthored this perfect timing. Last thoughts on Tim mentioned the website.

 

Sean [00:25:58] So you know, we had a, a mom reach out to us this week and she started teaching based on the book, a kind of a. Bible study at her church and was teaching the women how in this case was women's Bible study, how to ask questions, how to repair relationships. And she sent us this long email of people going, I didn't think I could help with this relationship. And it started again. Like that email to me made it worth that in itself. The whole price of the book. Now, if somebody again doesn't want to hear from you can't force them. But I think there's a whole lot of people in our life, in our work, in our communities where we haven't taken the time to look in at our own just shortcomings way. We can communicate better that if we just do some simple biblical things could really make some progress in people's eyes. So it's a practical book just to give tools. Here's how you find common ground. Here's how you listen better. Here's how you see the world as somebody does. Here's how you perfectly speak truth. And you know, some books, just like there's 5% of people that can do this, literally all of us can be better at having conversations. It's not that hard. Once you just start where you're at and practice it, you just get better. And frankly, it's fun, it's powerful, it's rewarding. We're able to talk with somebody and see something different you wouldn't have otherwise.

 

Chris [00:27:25] Good words, Shawn. Thanks for that. And that email, I'm sure, made it worthwhile. You happened to work with Tim on this coauthoring thing that made it all worth it because it was such a difficult thing to do. I would imagine.

 

Sean [00:27:39] It was one of those.

 

Chris [00:27:39] Kind of like.

 

Tim [00:27:42] Hey, let me just close by saying this. If you want to see the book in action, I'd go to Sean's YouTube channel. One of the reasons I asked them to do the book is I'd been a big fan of the channel and literally watching how he treats people doing truth and love. And I thought, Man, I want to write a book with this guy because he is literally doing it in front of hundreds of thousands of people. And so check out Sean's channel because he, he he holds the truth but doesn't in a way that people feel comfortable and not that they want to come back on his channel.

 

Chris [00:28:15] And it's why he's so well loved around here as well. Dr. Sean McDowell check out his YouTube channel and Dr. Tim me off his books. Both of their books are just numerous wonderful examples, Tim and Sean of how to do this, how to do it well, how to do it with not just courage, but with empathy and love in exposing and bringing to light the gospel. So thank you guys for coming on to this program and talking about relationships. Hey, y'all, come to the cmr.biola.edu if you want more content. And hey, love having you guys here. Thanks for joining us. Thanks, Chris.

 

Mandy [00:28:53] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our Web site at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on the Art of Relationships.