Breaking the Chains of Pornography with Guest Nick Stumbo

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In this episode, Chris and Alisa Grace explore the challenges and impacts of pornography in relationships and personal lives with special guest Nick Stumbo, Executive Director of Pure Desire. They discuss the pervasive issue of pornography in Christian communities, its mental, relational, and spiritual implications, and the path to freedom through grace-filled healing. Offering insights into breaking cycles of shame and addiction, this episode provides practical tips to help listeners pursue healthy, Christ-centered relationships.

Whether you’re a college student, a married couple, or a leader in the church, this episode offers valuable advice to navigate this challenging topic and find hope, healing, and restoration.

Resources Mentioned:

Free E-Books from Pure Desire

• 5 Steps to Freedom from Pornography - A guide to overcoming struggles with pornography. Download here
• 7 Keys to Understanding Betrayal Trauma - Help for navigating the pain of betrayal. Download here

Books by Nick Stumbo

• Safe - A guide to fostering grace-filled environments that promote healing from sexual struggles and create safe spaces for restoration. Learn more
• Setting Us Free - Nick Stumbo shares his journey to freedom from sexual addiction, offering practical tools and spiritual insights for lasting transformation. Learn more

From the Center for Marriage and Relationships (CMR)

• Sex, Pornography, and Relationship Help - Quick tips on addressing pornography's impact on relationships. Download PDF

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: youtube.com/@biola-cmr

Join the Conversation:

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

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Mandy [00:00:00] Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

 

Chris [00:00:11] Well, welcome to another Art of Relationships podcast. And thank you for the introduction there from Mandy, our wonderful little introducing person that has that wonderful accent.

 

Alisa [00:00:23] Scottish accent, that brogue.

 

Chris [00:00:25] Yeah, she's wonderful. Good friend of ours too. I'm joined here with, of course, with Elisa, my wife. And my name is Chris. And one of the things that we get to do, Lisa, I think that's so cool is have guests on that, really have expertise in certain areas. Where are the Christians that make up the church struggle with certain issues? They do some issues very well, but one that we have noticed growing. It's always been an issue, but it seems to be growing a little bit with a certain segment of our college students and our single people and even with adults is the area pornography and that segment are women. Men have traditionally been the ones at least I think that struggle with at least the the use of porn and the impact on relationships. We have so many students that come to our office that say, should I date this guy that struggles with porn? He admitted it a couple of months into our relationship and I'm worried.

 

Alisa [00:01:28] Yeah we even we speak for on the speaking team for family life and focus on the family so we are in churches, in barrooms, speaking to thousands of couples every year. And without exception, when we do a Q&A panel and it is anonymous, this is the issue that repeatedly comes up.

 

Chris [00:01:52] So.

 

Alisa [00:01:52] Heatedly.

 

Chris [00:01:53] It comes up all the time. So we have a special guest joining us today. It's Nick Stumbo. Nick, thanks for joining us. I'm going to tell him a little bit about you, but thanks for joining us today.

 

Nick [00:02:03] Yeah, I'm really glad to be here and thankful for a chance to talk about a challenging topic.

 

Chris [00:02:07] Yeah, it's it is a challenging topic. Nick is the executive director for Pure Desire. It's a sexual integrity ministry focused on helping men and women and churches and students to bring that hope and healing from the effects of sexual brokenness. Right. Addictions and betrayal. Nick, you've been serving as lead pastor at a church for a long time now. Well, a decade or more. And you've observed this not just in the lives of your congregation, but you and your wife, Michelle, also found hope and healing through counseling and group ministries of Pure desire. And so, Nick, thank you for joining us. I know that one of the things that we're going to talk about is your story and how you got involved in this and and then the hope that's there for our listeners. You know, our listeners, you know, they range from from college students across the country all the way up to older married couples that come to our family life or focus conferences and hear about things and listen to the podcast. And so, Nick, tell us a little bit about how you got involved in this area of brokenness related to sexuality and what led you here.

 

Nick [00:03:24] Yeah, well, for 15 years I was a full time pastor and for ten of those years I was wrestling through my own struggles with pornography. And I have a what I've described or come to find is a fairly typical, I think, Christian man's journey where I was exposed to some pornographic content as a young boy, didn't know what to do with it, but knew that it didn't feel safe to tell mom and dad and also felt this weird draw to it that I wanted to see more. And in my lack of understanding felt very shameful about that, that there must be something wrong with me, that I'm drawn to this very sinful behavior because I grew up in the church. My dad was a pastor, so I knew right and wrong. I had a strong sense of conscience and it was like, this is wrong, but there's something about me that wants it. And so that shame and secrecy is the starting point of my journey. And that's, I think, the case for so many Christian men and women. Things happen early in life. We have areas where we get exposed to something or something happens to us, but a part of it likes us, which I am always clear to tell people. Is the brain responding to the human body and sexuality the way God designed us to? But then it is sin and Satan hijacking that and pulling us into something that maybe we were never even looking forward to begin with.

 

Chris [00:04:39] Nick, how old were you? What when you said. Young. Well, how old were you?

 

Nick [00:04:44] I think I was ten years old at a friend's house when his parents had put on a movie after they thought we had gone to bed, you know, and we crept back up the stairs and we were watching, you know, just over the lip of the stairs, this rather explicit, you know, they weren't watching a porn film, but it was very it was very violent and a Thrasher film with tons of nudity and sexuality. It was like my little brain had never seen anything like that. And it just it kind of opened that world again of this fear on what am I seeing? But part of me liked it and what's wrong. And so going into high school and as a teenager, that's, you know, late 90s. So the Internet is just becoming a thing and you're finding you can type in a person's name and if they've had nude images, there they are. And wow. And even at that age it was very quickly A okay, I'm never doing that again. I'm so sorry, Lord, I got it out of my system. I was just curious. And now I'm done. And I'd have maybe a good month or two and then I'd be back. And that was the pattern that I was stuck in. That was it was stretched out enough that I thought, No, I don't have a problem. I just yeah, I struggle once in a while, but then it seems normal. I'm a young guy. I'm going to grow up. I'm going to get married. I met my wife at Bible College. We dated for three years. We had a chapel speaker at one of our chapels who encouraged, Hey, before you get married, you owe it to your future spouse to tell them everything so that when they say I do, they know what they're saying. I do too. And that made sense to me not to surprise them after the marriage. And so on a date that night, I shared with my wife to be my journey through pornography. And, you know, she was very surprised and naive to that point and just said, well, why don't you just promise me that you'll never do those things again? And I remember saying, as a 21 year old in the car that night, I want to make you that promise. But I feel like I've made that promise to God and others so many times before. And it it keeps coming back. And so I'm going to try really hard and I hope I won't, but I don't think I can make that promise. And what I find so fascinating looking back, is that even then I was using some language about addiction or a compulsive behavior that I intuitively knew I didn't know how to beat on my own. But what concerns me is it didn't occur to me that that was such a like, that's a big deal if you recognize I don't know that I can stop this behavior. We're saying I need help. I need information I don't have. So I did my best. But in marriage continued in that pattern of every few months having a struggle. And I would come to my wife because I had integrity. I wanted to be truthful. I loved the Lord. I didn't want this in my life. And so I would confess and say, Man, I'm so sorry. I've struggled again. This is still happening. But, you know, this is the last time and here's why. Here's why this time was different. And initially, you know, my wife believed me and supported me and wanted to see that change. But after ten years, that repeated pattern of, you know, binge purge for me with pornography and then confession to her and with no resources to help, I destroyed our marriage and we were really on the brink of separation and divorce until we found pure desire and got involved in a ministry that understood not only what it meant to be a pastor and the word of God, but also understood addiction and the brain and how we can really go a lot deeper in healing than just a try harder approach. And so we walked through a process of a year of counseling and groups that sincerely transformed our lives, my behavior, our marriage, and then ultimately became something I shared with our church. We shared our journey publicly and out of that launched groups for men and women in our church that had similar issues. And I. Like to say it became really the most significant discipleship ministry that we ever had, because when we could help men and women get into a safe place where they could work through this dark place of their life, it impacted everything for good and it created greater disciples, engagement in church, people that would move. You used to sit in the back of the room, would be in the front of the room with their hands raised. And it was like, this is it's not just stopping people's bad behavior and helping them not sin. It's it is transforming their lives because it's a very inside out process. And so that that ministry in our church led to the ongoing connection of pure desire. And then in 2016, I became the executive director here. And it's been now for the last eight years my privilege to help other men and women on that same journey, that that is what changed my life. And so it's deeply personal, but it's also, I think, so pertinent in our world right now to see how do we help men and women and in particular in our conversation, Christian men and women navigate this area and find that there is freedom, that there is hope, and that real change is possible.

 

Chris [00:09:32] And they're there. Thank you for sharing a little bit of your journey. And I know you went into much more depth not only in some of the things that you've spoken at and in your church, and let's unpack a couple of these things. Let's start with with this. There's a stat out there that 80% of porn users feel no sense of guilt when using porn. Now, that's broadly across our culture. It's different within the Christian culture. I think that and I'm going to ask that as a question. Do you find that it's the Christians that oftentimes fill this guilt and shame and so they hide much like you did, because they just simply know it's wrong while in the culture it's not viewed necessarily as wrong or a moral issue for them. And that can really translate into some difficult issues because now the Christian is feeling, wait a minute, why am is the is the culture right? Is this just okay? Am I do I just have this over, you know, blown sense of right and wrong? Should I just follow what everybody else says? And if I go talk to a non-Christian friend of mine, they're going to be, Why are you so worried about this? Nick, how do you navigate that in the church with that very deep sense of guilt and shame that often accompanies the use of porn among our church members?

 

Alisa [00:11:00] Or or I think there's it's a really good question to ask. Do they really feel shame about this anymore or is it so commonplace in our culture today that they no longer feel that shame or see it as something negative or sinful?

 

Chris [00:11:17] Yeah. What are your thoughts?

 

Nick [00:11:19] Culture normalizes the topic and I would say by and large the church avoids the topic or it's a very taboo topic that we don't know how to talk about. And in that gap between the two, I think Christians often make a lot of their own conclusions. We recently did a report with Barna called Beyond the Porn Phenomenon. And I know we're going to talk a little bit more about the stats, but in that we asked the question, you know, how often do you view pornography and never was an option, but other options were, you know, occasionally monthly, weekly, daily and of Christians that said I am viewing pornography to some extent. A follow up question was asked, Are you comfortable with how much pornography you are using and 49% of practicing Christian. So a practicing Christian is someone who reports they go to church regularly and that their faith is highly important to them. 49% of practicing Christians said they were comfortable with how much pornography they were using. And another 20, I think it's 24% said they wished they used it a little bit less. But mostly they're okay. And only 21% of practicing Christians said they wish they didn't use pornography. Why now? Those those numbers even to me were staggering. But what I see in the numbers is this We're often stuck in a game of comparison when it's an issue in our lives that we don't know how to change or stop completely.

 

Chris [00:12:43] Yep.

 

Nick [00:12:44] So if I can compare myself to the world or like, man, there are people that they just accept porn and they watch it all the time. For me, sure, once in a while I stray into it and it's not great and I feel bad, but it's not as bad as X, Y, or Z. And so the layers we create and sometimes this is because of what you guys mentioned, because of the shame we feel that we wish this wasn't in our life. But it's there are some and so we minimize it. We rationalize and we deny in order to feel okay about where we're at. And then we go to churches where we're not really able to honestly acknowledge what we're doing, where we're struggling. And we. Feel that if I did stand up and say, Man, I need help, then people assume that I'm really, really bad, right? That I'm I'm looking at it all the time and I'm that that image of a person that I don't want to be. Well, I only struggle once in a while. And so we kind of get comfortable in this behavior because we don't talk about it. We don't know where to address it. And if we're honest, we've tried to change and it's not changed. So we kind of morph into that cultural idea of, well, you know, don't all guys struggle? And, you know, this is just we're all sexual beings. Can we really help it? Can we really change? And those are not biblical ideas. Those are worldly ideas. But if we've had an area of our life that we can't change, I think we get sucked into that mindset of, well, at least it's not as bad as whatever. And I guess I'm okay. And I think that's a lot of what we're seeing, unfortunately, as people approach this topic.

 

Chris [00:14:14] Yeah, sobering, isn't it, Nick? At least I think one of the things that we decided here, we're it. I'm a professor here at by Old University. Elise is an adjunct. Nick One of the things that we did is we started a class called, you know, Christian Perspective on relationships. And so we have, you know, six professors in there from different disciplines theology, New Testament, psychology, communication. And we just we have a class it's, you know, 200 students sometimes, and it's all about relationships. And one entire session is dedicated to pornography a whole week, basically. Nick, one of the things that we're finding is it's those normalized students, right? That that oftentimes feel like, well, why are we talking about this? It's, you know, not that big of a deal. The the other percent, though, are those that say, I'm so glad this is coming out. I'm so glad you bring this to light because they feel like they're so alone. They feel like they're the only ones. And if they only knew the numbers. And so that's what we reveal and talk about and open these doors as you go around doing this as well. First of all, 011 side comment about Barna, the president. Now, I'm sure you know, David Kinnaman was a student in my class here many years ago, and he knew he didn't know how to do anything statistical or do any research until he took my class. And I was like, David, what are you doing? I'm going to have to fill you. But I.

 

Alisa [00:15:56] Got to tell you, in a way, while the lightning no.

 

Chris [00:15:58] I and I tell David all the time, you know, I'm so glad that I helped you become the person you are today. Yeah, but. But, you know, what David has done is he's taken these stats and he's asked the church these difficult, you know, oftentimes shameful topics, and he's brought it to light. Nick, tell us about your journey, bringing it to the light. What does it do? There's I'm assuming that just simply talking about it is such a relief, but there also has to be follow up. And your church, you guys have really set the standard for this. I mean, you have an entire ministry devoted to this one topic. How did that start? How what do you wish other churches can do and what's the lesson for all of us in this? And if you could just speak to them, to the church, what would you say in this area?

 

Nick [00:16:52] That is a key, Chris. And in some ways we have taken scripture that is spot on and what we need, but we have misapplied it, if I could put it that way. So a principle verse for me in both my struggle and now in recovery has been James chapter five that calls us to confess our sins one to another and you will be healed.

 

Chris [00:17:12] He's faithful and just that idea.

 

Nick [00:17:15] I think within church we are often presented of confession as the end goal. Like if I could just get to that place to tell someone about my struggle and I could confess, they would pray for me and I would be healed and I would be free. And I tell you, I if that worked, I would have been free at 16. When after youth group I stayed. And in the spirit of that verse, I confessed everything to my youth pastor and he prayed for me and he offered forgiveness. And great. I mean, it is a beautiful moment. And I walked out of there like, Thank you, Lord, I did it. I'm going to be free. And then shortly after, when I struggled again, there was now a double shame, that feeling of why? Why did I do this again? There must be something wrong with me that I've confessed and I've been set free. And I received, you know, the forgiveness of Christ. And I'm good to go, but yet I'm not changed. What? So then I assume there's something wrong with me. And I think a lot of people maybe operate in that. I went to the altar, I went to the conference, I confessed, I told someone and I was prayed over and it felt so good. But why am I still struggling? And yet I think the truth that we see in James chapter five, as your students of the Bible know that the word there for confessed is actually an ongoing Greek verb, that it's confessing it's a spirit or a place of honesty and truth, that that continues to happen. And that as I'm in a place of truth and honesty and healing is also an ongoing word that healing continues to take place in my life. And so I think if we could see confession not as the end goal, but as the starting point, it would really revolutionize the way churches approach this topic. Because, yes, having a safe place, to be honest, is critical. But if that's all we have, we often send people back into their places of isolation and hidden ness and secrecy. And without experiencing deeper transformation of their thinking, they're believing and understanding what led them into this to begin with. They're going to end up back in there. And so the confession being the open door to, you know, for us, it's been having a community of groups that are focused around this topic, that are walking intentionally through a process of change with other men or with other women that are on a similar journey is really where transformation is at. Want. One thing I will say anecdotally, since you guys are there by all, there is a men's student group there that ordered 50 copies of our young adult men's material because they said we we want to get a handle on this, we need help. And so we sent basically at cost 50 copies and said, man, if you will walk through a process as you're confessing and being real with one another, this can lead you into change to understand why you do what you don't want to do and lead to that change. So that would be my encouragement to churches is confession. Openness. What I would call a culture of grace is half of the equation. And it's it's an important half, but it is only half of the equation. The other half is a process of healing that actually takes people into a lasting way of doing change and of doing life differently.

 

Chris [00:20:15] So glad to hear that. You know, that men's group here, that order, those books have been have approached us, you know, teaching this class. And we have gone and spoken to them and they've come into a time in which we even had an open number of, you know, what we call just open times to come and talk and the numbers of men and women that came. But that men's group is still running, by the way. They keep passing the leadership on to the next, you know, sophomore. Jr And Nick, your book has just been so helpful.

 

Alisa [00:20:47] Because I don't know if you remember, but just last spring we only teach that class every spring, so just once a year in the spring semester and always fills up so fast. But speaking of that group that you mentioned here on campus, the night that we were talking about the issue of pornography and the impact of it psychologically, spiritually in the areas of mental health and relationally, what the leader of the group came this young man that's a student and gave his testimony before class and actually shared about the group and just invited those young men that were struggling in this area. And what I would love to see and what I think our next step here is going to have to be to start a women's group in the area. What's your the research that you did with Barnett? What are you seeing in the area of women in pornography net?

 

Nick [00:21:46] So the overall numbers on pornography use by Christians, 75% of men would say, I have some level of struggle with pornography and 40% of women. So a total of 54% of men and women. And I think it's the first time that I'm aware of in the Internet age when we've asked the church that a majority, over 50% of practicing Christians would say this is an ongoing issue in my life. And of those women, when you break it down into the age groups, though, it's it's even more prevalent for young women because in millennial women, it's 62%. And in Gen Z, women it's 64%. So nearly two thirds of our young adult women say, yeah, me too. And that's one of the strong emphasis we try to have as a ministry, is to say to churches and campuses and to leaders, we have to stop talking about this as a men's problem, because when we do, we actually double shame women who probably already have some shame about what they're doing and why. But then they also feel shame that I have a quote unquote, man's problem. So what's wrong with me that I have a man's problem? Well, the truth is, God created men and women in his image. And both are sexual beings with desires and hormones and brain chemicals that are designed for sexual fulfillment in God's world. And then we were born into a sinful, fallen world where those things were corrupted. And so whether we're male or female, we are all in need of rediscovering the truth of that image of God in our sexuality. And men might struggle in a more stereotypical way with the visual imagery of pornography. But with the prevalence of it in a very sexualized culture and the availability, whether women stumble across something or what I think is happening for a lot of college women. You know, the percentage of college men, particularly outside the church that are viewing pornography, is it's in the high 90 percentiles. So it makes sense to me. The college age women are saying, well, what are the men so interested in? What are they watching? What are they expecting of me? What is sex supposed to be? And they go maybe out of curiosity or a desire to learn what they need to be. And their brain is getting hooked, just like the male brain, because there is, like I said, something about God's design in our brain that is meant to bond with the human body and sexuality. Of course it's meant to happen in the the beauty of a marriage relationship. But the same processes can be kicked into gear when someone is doing pornography, and that happens to men and it happens to women. And so if we can help say this is a people problem and as people made in the image of God, but living in a fallen world, we all need to have opportunities to address our sexuality and to be disciple there. That's another thing I think that would be so helpful, especially for young adult men and women. It's so often treated as kind of a discipline problem or.

 

Chris [00:24:36] Something.

 

Nick [00:24:36] That can be punished. Like, why did you do that? What's wrong with you versus what if we saw this as an area of discipleship and training? Because for many of us, as I look at my story, the things I got exposed to as a kid, the things that I did as a teenager, much of it was out of immaturity. Well, how do we handle immaturity? Do we punish someone for being immature? No, we train them. We disciple them into maturity. And the reality for most people, whether they're young adults or now adults in their 60s and 70s, is that they reflected in their story. They would have to say I was never disciple in this area. I was never trained into healthy sexuality. Or they might say if I was disciple, I was disciple by the world or young adults. Now, if they were honest, might say I'm being disciple by pornography. My training in sexuality is from the porn industry. Well, no wonder people are struggling. If that's your teacher, you're going to become a student of that teacher. And if in the lack of addressing this in the church, in the silence in so many churches, there aren't other options. And so that's something we're trying to help with this say, you know what, We we can disciple our young people. We can train one another for godliness in this area, but we have to be willing to address it. We have to look at reality and we have to create places where people know this is okay to talk about that. I'm not leaving my faith behind or I'm not leaving the church when I start talking about sex that I'm still firmly in God's will for me as a human being to want to experience healthy sexuality. And when churches and or campuses, when we don't talk about it, I think we make people feel like they have to go somewhere else to get help. And sometimes that somewhere else, unfortunately, is the world. So we need to bring that back and say we have all the tools we have, we have all the right things that God has given us in his word and through faith in Christ. But we haven't always known how to apply them in this area and to apply it with wisdom and grace. But we can do it. And that's what we're all about here at Pure Desire.

 

Chris [00:26:32] And so much of what you said is just resonates it. So thank you. I mean, everything that you're saying right now, it's the message that we're trying and hoping. Starts to impact and transform the church. So let's dive into that real quickly. And just maybe just a quick question. What can churches do differently? And I think you've started by saying. One, most churches, if they address sexuality or pornography, it might be in one sermon, you know, once a year. You know, it might be, you know, in in a particular class at one point a topic. But what you guys have done is literally found transformation of a church body when it's a consistent, regular, disabling topic that you do. You know, it's not every sermon that you're going to give is on sexuality, but what you do is it seems like you guys are making this central by hitting the point. The areas that, you know, your your people, your church members are struggling with. And I would imagine that if you could just be over all the churches, you know, in the in your area and in every other, you'd say you need to do what you need to make this more regular, more consistent. It would that be the the advice you would give if a pastor came to you? And how often do you get to do that, by the way?

 

Nick [00:28:04] Here's the question I encourage pastors to ask is if a young couple is at home tonight and the young man leaves this phone in the calendar and is out working on a project in the garage and his wife happens to pick up the phone. And the image on there is pornography. Or it becomes clear that there is a struggle here that I didn't know about in that moment. What message will they have heard from your church that will prompt them to know who to call and where to turn? And if it's not crystal clear, I can tell you with certainty they won't reach out to their church because it does feel shaming, It feels embarrassing, it feels awkward, like. And you're not going to call the church secretary to be like, hey, here's our problem. Do you help with this? And so it needs to be clear on a Web site. It needs to be something that when people come to church, they hear, we help with that. So I make some simple encouragements to say we need to really look at how do we refer when we do mention pornography or sexuality or brokenness in this area, how do we refer to it? Because I think many times there is an approach that treats it like this is a problem, this problem for those people or that problem. So for those of you that have that problem and we immediately turn it into a subset of our church that has a quote unquote, real problem. And this group is for a few select people, well, immediately, even those who need it don't want to go to that group because they don't want to have to admit they need that group. And even if they do need that group, they're likely married to someone that has no idea the level to which they need it. So to volunteer to go to that group is a huge cavern way. Like, I do not want to go there. What if instead, when we referred to it as we were talking about earlier, we said we are all sexual beings made in the image of God and all of us need help learning to live out our sexual design for God's glory. And we have some opportunities that we're making available for everyone. So changing that language from them and those to all of us and again, as we just mentioned, also not saying so men, let's fix this. No people, men and women. We want to help everyone. I also encourage pastors and churches just to think about how do you drop this into a sermon on spiritual disciplines or freedom in Christ or growing in it like we often will list like, so if you're struggling with and then we'll list things anger and often we list more socially acceptable sin. So if you're struggling with anger or workaholism, you know, this is where this applies. Well, include pornography and lust. And knowing that a majority of the people sitting in front of you have an unresolved struggle with pornography. How do we just keep bringing this up and communicating that message of we help? This is an area that we're safe. I've said in the Barnard report that the church should be the safest place in the world for someone to go and say, I'm struggling with sexual issues in my life. But right now, in this report from Barna, we ask that question Who do you feel comfortable sharing your struggle with? And pastor or spiritual advisor was like 9 or 10 on the list and only 14% of people and 14% of those who say I am struggling. Only 14% said they'd be comfortable going to their pastor. They were more comfortable going to their doctor and even to an adult they didn't know than to their own pastor. And I look at that and say, you know, not to fault or blame pastors, as you mentioned, Chris, most of us never got any training on this in Bible college, in seminary. Maybe it got brought up briefly in a counseling class if we took that one. But it's just assumed that we'll either know how to help people or that this won't come up. So if we can create that avenue of, Hey, we talk about that here. And then the other thing I would say is having the willingness to be trained to offer training opportunities, not just, you know, waiting till someone says, yeah, this is a problem, right? So if we could offer a class or our team comes in and speaks and says, Hey, tonight we're doing a training for all the parents, and if you want to be equipped to know how to talk to your kids about sex, come to tonight's conference Tonight seminar. That's a great training opportunity so that we can all learn without having it be will raise your hand or stand up if you struggle. Yeah. That can help people take that first step before they have to admit they have a problem.

 

Chris [00:32:29] Well, thank you for inviting yourself to our class and inviting yourself to by Ola and Nick. And I would love to come. I'm being serious. You will be.

 

Nick [00:32:39] The president of your university said if I was there, he would use me. I'm like, Man, I'm looking for an excuse. I'll get you there. Well, come on. We're going to come to see my daughter this semester.

 

Chris [00:32:48] Well, he.

 

Nick [00:32:49] Has to be on campus.

 

Chris [00:32:50] Well, he's he's a great person. Obviously. We're talking about our president. Very Cory here and Nick. So, yes, we have a class in the spring. It's a perfect way to do this. We have Julie Slattery, Dr. Julie Slattery coming out. She was a he's.

 

Nick [00:33:05] A good friend of ours.

 

Chris [00:33:06] Yeah, she was of of all things. She was my to if you can believe this. And she also didn't know anything until she took my class and became my friend.

 

Nick [00:33:14] Have you been there like 80 years or I mean, how long have you been.

 

Chris [00:33:17] If I don't even want. Well, if you do the math, it's right now 35, 36 years. But nonetheless.

 

Alisa [00:33:23] Who's counting?

 

Chris [00:33:24] Who's counting? So she's coming out. Nick, we're going to invite you. In fact, even at that same time, I'm going to be sending you a quick email asking you to come out. Nick, One of the things, too, that stands out to me is when you talk about going to a pastor, what are the numbers? I mean, the numbers that I understand is that 1 in 5 youth pastors and 1 in 7 senior pastors admit to using porn on a regular basis. And so here you have men and women that are in leadership who are no doubt themselves struggling. And where do they go? Right. That that's that's another difficult stat that you guys have uncovered. What are some other ones.

 

Alisa [00:34:09] Who shepherding the shepherd in this case? Who's discipling the shepherd and helping the shepherd in this case?

 

Nick [00:34:16] Those numbers, unfortunately, are even higher now. The 1 in 5 is now senior pastors. That 18% say this is an ongoing issue in my life. 67% of senior pastors say that it's been a part of their story at some point. And the reality is the vast majority of those don't feel comfortable or able to share that to ask for help, because we have this perception in the church that that would invalidate their ministry. And so rather than getting help, they continue to try to, you know, fake it till you make it or act like things are okay and work on it privately. And then as we're watching so tragically all around us, it's not until the story hits the news and they do lose their career or their reputation that then they can go get help because now they're a disgraced fallen pastor. And I just keep saying, like, then why do we wait? What do we what? Why don't we have these avenues where a leader, a pastor, can say, I'm also a human being? You know, back to one of our questions earlier today about seminary and what can we do? That reality that young men and women are not given opportunities in their training to address this topic. And so we assume that once you're qualified for ministry, this part of your life will just kind of take care of itself. And yet that is so far from reality. That's so far from the truth, that when we're a young man or woman entering into ministry, we are still a man or a woman with probably unresolved sexual brokenness. And no one has actually asked us how we're doing there. Or if they did ask. It was asked in a way as a qualification number, like what if you struggle with this and you say, yes, they're not going to give me my license, they're not going to hire me at the church. I say, no, I'm I'm doing great. And yet the reality is there's probably a lot of unresolved struggle there. And so I feel like if we could give pastors permission to also be people and create places where as a human being, as a person, we want to be a part of supporting your discipleship, of supporting your growth and not waiting until it gets so bad that we have to remove you. That would revolutionize the church. We have a couple of churches we work with that have taken that mindset of just saying, you know, any time we hire a pastor, we just put them in a pure desire group for their first year because unless they've already done that work, we just expect their stuff there. They haven't dealt with and we don't even wait. We're just like, You're going to do this group as part of your onboarding, with our church being.

 

Alisa [00:36:38] The.

 

Nick [00:36:38] First to be healthy for the long haul. And I think that's changed the whole culture of those churches, because if you say, well, we we have our pastors do this, well then what does that say to the people in the church? Because they're like, Well, if our pastors can go through this and get to be a pastor, then I think it's actually safe for me to pursue help here, too. And they're not going to get rid of me because that is a fear that people hold. Even if we're starting to talk about pornography more. I will tell you this. There is a little part of every person's story that makes them think their struggle is somehow uniquely bad.

 

Chris [00:37:10] Yeah.

 

Nick [00:37:11] Or makes them uniquely disqualified. And they'll hear, Well, yeah, you help people with a regular struggle with pornography. But you don't know that I've done this or I have this fetish or I have this part of my story and they will self disqualify. But when they see it, man, it's safe for a pastor to be in a group here. Then it's safe for me to. And I think that's just a powerful way to help pastors get healthy. Say, we're not going to wait until we have to remove you. We're going to help you at the beginning of your ministry, get healthy and stay healthy for the long haul.

 

Chris [00:37:45] Well, you know, when it comes to money and marriage, we all want clarity and confidence. Right? And especially unity with spouses, right? I think so. That's why we get to work personally with Colby Gilmore of of Blue Trust.

 

Alisa [00:38:00] That's right. Colby Gilmore, along with other Blue Trusts Certified wealth strategist, offers personalized, biblically centered financial planning and investment management services. No matter what your income level.

 

Chris [00:38:13] Is, at least to see that title twice. Blue Trust Certified. Well strategist that's a tough.

 

Alisa [00:38:18] I'm not sure I could I know.

 

Chris [00:38:19] So they put they do put clients best interests first and they don't sell financial products. I love that about them.

 

Alisa [00:38:25] Me too. And you know what? We highly recommend Colby Gilmore and Blue Trust. For anyone looking for both financial unity with your spouse and opportunities to increase your wealth and your generosity.

 

Chris [00:38:38] So if you guys want to check out run blue.com or reach out to Colby Gilmore at Colby.Gilmore@Ronblue.com That's Colby.Gilmore@Ron blue.com. I think you guys will be glad you did.

 

Alisa [00:38:58] You know, Nick and Chris, as we're talking about this one thing, one area that we haven't really kind of pick your brain about, Nick, that I think really is is foundational to this whole discussion is before we can offer help to people in our churches, in our offices, in our classes, in our counseling, they I say the first the first step is realizing you have a problem. There's actually something wrong with pornography. And yet the statistics that we show that are showing up in our research that showed up in your research were Barna, is that 62% of these Christians especially are involved in pornography to one level or another, are comfortable with it, and they're not seeing anything wrong with it. And so if you're going to make a case, if we're going to make a case to people of why pornography is a problem, what is your research showing what is the harm? What's the big deal? Why why can't we just watch it as a married couple if we're doing it within the bonds and sanctity of our marriage? And it just helps us in our sexual, you know, relationship. Why does it hurt if my boyfriend's doing it? He says it's normal and everybody does it. What's the problem? I think we've got to establish the case that it's a problem. And what is that problem?

 

Nick [00:40:31] So many things come to mind when you ask that question. One of the areas we delved into in the study was mental health and asking people questions about anxiety, depression, even thoughts of self-harm, and then correlated that with their answers. Also about how often are you viewing pornography? And if you could see that page in the report, it is striking because it is just this across the board line that the more pornography someone is viewing, the more unhealthy their mental health is in every area anxiety, depression, self-harm. And of course, there's that question, well, is that correlation or causation? Right. Did the porn use caused the mental health or did the mental health caused the porn youth? And my response is, I don't think it matters because what's clear is there is a connection between porn use and unhealthy in our mental well-being. And on the flip side, we asked about positive things like feeling like my life has a purpose. I find joy in what I do. I feel connected to other people. And the inverse is also true that the more pornography someone is viewing, the less they responded positively to those things. So we see it impacts people's mental health. It's their relationships. And I would say in my experience of what we do up here desire things that people haven't really thought through about pornography is that pornography is training your brain for selfishness. It is training you to believe that the purpose of my sexuality is my pleasure and my fulfillment. And yet that is the exact opposite of the biblical ethic that we would all say we believe because Christ has modeled for us and taught us and others centered self giving way of loving the Ephesians five passage of, you know, that we, in respect for Christ, we honor and mutually respect one another. We put their needs ahead of our own. And this idea that in marriage, I'm in it for you and you're in it for me. That's what Paul is saying also in first Corinthians seven about not depriving one another that should never be used as a passage for men to expect sex from their wives. What it should be is a beautiful passage about my body's not my own and I'm here to pursue and seek your good believing that you're going to be doing the same for me and that that leads to a mutually satisfying relationship. Well, pornography works completely counter to that. Pornography teaches me that it's all about my response, my needs, my wants. And then we try to enter into a relationship with a normal human being who, by the way, is not a porn star. And we have those things formed in our brain that work against a healthy relationship. And that's the other piece. I would just mention quickly that when people say, what's the harm? Your brain doesn't know the difference between fantasy and reality in this area. And your brain, as God designed it seeks to bond with anything or anyone with whom you have a sexual connection. And so when you climax to an image or a thought or a representation of sexuality, there are chemicals in your brain that try to latch on to that and say, This is mine, this is my relationship. But then when it's something like an image or something on your smartphone and there's no relationship, it actually confuses the brain. And those chemicals are kind of left floating like, well, wait a minute, that this isn't working. And then when you attempt to have a relationship with a human being, you're your spouse. Those brain chemicals aren't functioning like they're supposed to. And what God designed to be a glue in a relationship is suddenly not there. And so when people begin to understand like how God made your brain to work, you can actually see in the foundation of our brain chemistry. God designed the brain for monogamy because when we're in a committed, monogamous relationship with our thoughts, our eyes and our bodies, like it actually reinforces that relationship in a beautiful way. But pornography completely tears that down. And the more people understand that, I think the more something rises up in them. It says, Man, we can't destroy this beautiful gift that God intends us to be able to experience.

 

Chris [00:44:21] And, you know, just the moment you start talking about brain chemistry, I can tell you my like for you has gone through the roof as far as just your home, because that's what I do, right? I'm a psychologist and I've been studying this. These. No, not necessarily the chemicals per se, though I teach on those, but. But the brain. So first of all, I just applaud you and your work in so many ways because there are so many who ignore or don't have the expertise to recognize what's going on in the brain. And it becomes this, you know, problem that they try and deal with this on a moral level or on a a level of, okay, you're just not faithful enough or you need to pray harder. And once we understand where you're taking our listeners and where you've done in your ministry, the impact that the brain, the role that it plays. So we find chemicals that you're talking about, oxytocin, dopamine, you know, you get these dopamine squirts that that go through this, you know, process of our brain that says, first of all, it's our pleasure center that gets, you know, initially it just gets excited there when we see this image for the first time. That's also what you've identified as. The main problem is that first image, that second image, that third image might give you that dopamine squirt. But by the time you get in, see the same thing for the fourth time, it's not it's not processing you. So you need something new. And what we're finding is people need new images so regularly it's because that dopamine needs and that pleasure centers seeking something new and novel to give them that same feeling again. And so you use these words, you know, those listeners all understand things like correlations, right? It's now the main problem that you guys have identified and we've seen as as well as these associations, right? We begin to associate now what should be normal monogamy like you talk about our brains latch on instead to that cell phone. They see the cell phone and all of a sudden their dopamine kicks in because they recognize that's where I'm seeing these images. It's like a treasure center. And guess what that is? This is why there's and there's very little controversy in my mind and a lot of people's mind that porn is actually similar to a drug addiction. And the reason we believe that there are some skeptics out there and said that porn isn't you know, it's not like a drug addiction. It doesn't have. But but in reality, it has the same exact mechanisms. Right. It it's like I can take any drug user right now. We can in our field, we can clean them up within probably two weeks, get us get them into a home, someone that's using cocaine. And probably within three weeks we can clear their system, we can reset their brain. The problem in every drug treatment center is when they leave, those associations oftentimes still say that they see their friends, they see this person, they used to do drugs, which they go to the house or the corner or these and just comes right back. Well, porn's the same way. We can you can confess it when you're 17, 18, and you walk away. But we haven't dealt with what's happening in this addictive brain that is primed to connect to another person, like you've said. And I think, Nic, it's I'm so grateful for your guys's ministry. Like pure desire, the work with partner because you are recognizing where the battle really lies. Right. I think our enemy is oftentimes saying, it's a failure of you, of your will. It's a failure over here. You need to just do better. And he's leading many people astray to recognize the real battle comes in when we start to recognize how God made us for this, how he does. The reason we get connected is because a dope. I mean, but that's this oxytocin that comes in that connects me to my spouse, but it's now connected me to that computer screen or that that phone. Yes. But you know, by the way, Susan Fiske, I think you should pronounce is at Fiske. She's at Princeton. She used MRI scans to analyze men who are watching porn. And Lisa, this was your question. What are some of the other effects? But afterwards, their brain activity showed that they looked at that. So the men they were watching, looking at these MRI scans, Nic, and what they found afterwards is that men begin to look at women more like objects than as people and sex becomes this almost object association. And now so they see women that way. That's scary.

 

Alisa [00:49:14] You know, when you really unpack that that phrase because we've always, you know, heard of women being treated as. Concepts sex object. But when you really literally look at the brain scans, when we view pornography and in this case, the the research is on men who view pornography, the part of their brain that is stimulated to is is stimulated in a way as when a man looks at a cup. Or at a table or a chair. Yeah. It's an adamant object. And begins to view women and perceive women as that inanimate object. And really, we lose. They lose their their ability to humanize that person that they're viewing. They don't see them as a person. They see them literally as an object to be used.

 

Chris [00:50:09] That's such a good point, Lisa, because and what it's doing at the brain level is resetting these what we call neural pathways. Right. And and so it's it's sending these messages, but it's strengthening this neural pathway and then it's seeing these as objects. But it requires us to see even more this repetitive viewing then these narrow pathways say, hey, I need more and type and level of stimulation. Really that is not sociable. You you it doesn't say satiate us. That means it doesn't satisfy. We we need more.

 

Alisa [00:50:47] Chris? Nick. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead.

 

Nick [00:50:51] That that's why it's so crucial that those neurochemicals of bonding chemicals accompany pleasure chemicals. Because what happens with pornography is the pleasure. Chemicals get sent off like crazy. And the bonding chemicals that God designed to create relationship try to attach. When that doesn't happen and all you get is pleasure. That's where that tolerance sets in. And you need more and more and more. But that's why I say if you look at the brain, God designed it for monogamy, because when the bonding chemicals and pleasure chemicals can fire together as God intended and the bonding works, then the brain actually says, this is what I really want, this is what I really need, is more of this. And what they find in some of those longitudinal brain studies over time is that in a monogamous, healthy relationship where sexual drive is all being handled in a healthy way with the couple, that a decreasing level of stimulus can achieve the same level of pleasure in a monogamous relationship. And we don't hear about that, right? That's right.

 

Alisa [00:51:53] Let's read that one more time, Nick.

 

Nick [00:51:55] Say that in our brains that as we go through life with someone, a decreasing level of stimulus can create still the same level of pleasure when the bonding hormones are present? Yeah. And so I think about that is the reality of our human bodies. Like, I'm not going to look the same in my 40s as I do my 60s, as I do my 80s. And nor is my wife. And we're not going to have our youth. And if we're stuck in that pleasure cycle of always needing more like an 80 year old body isn't the same. But if we're in a monogamous relationship, as God designed and it's that 80 year old person that I've bonded to throughout my life, a lowering level of trigger or input can create the same levels of joy and satisfaction and even pleasure. It's like, turns out God actually called us to monogamy and then designed our brains to live it if we'll listen to him.

 

Chris [00:52:46] Wow. Gosh, it's such a great insight and a beautiful picture of like, we got a done this. You know, there's an aside there's another example. I don't know if you heard about the butterfly effect effect, but the super and I was going.

 

Nick [00:52:59] To mention supernormal stimulus is huge.

 

Chris [00:53:02] Yeah. Yeah. It's it's this word super normal and it just simply means. Right. That stimulation that comes out and if you haven't heard of this, listeners just just go type in supernormal stimulus or go type in the butterfly butterfly effect and you'll find the videos in essence neck. What they did is, as you know, they just simply took butterflies, for example, and they created cardboard female butterflies that the males found so appealing that they ignored all female butterflies just to hang out and try and meet with these super normal, larger than life female butterflies. And they ignored the females in their.

 

Alisa [00:53:47] Life, like they were more vibrant, more colorful, their wings were bigger. The the patterns are no more intricate. And and it was fascinating. Like you said, the males were trying to meet with the cardboard exaggeration of of the normal female butterfly. Why they ignored the female.

 

Chris [00:54:07] And so, Lisa, think about what that does for the females. Now, let's let's take it to the human, the.

 

Alisa [00:54:13] Human impact.

 

Chris [00:54:14] Because we would say what we're seeing, Nick, online are these cardboard images, larger features, sexual pleasures that, you know, that the sexual organs being whatever, whatever larger. And now you can imagine the impact it has on a wife, on a girlfriend when Nick.

 

Alisa [00:54:34] How do I complete with that.

 

Chris [00:54:35] Way you can compete.

 

Nick [00:54:37] And that explains why erectile dysfunction among young men and in their. Companies are pursuing new medication. And you can find, you know, medical doctors, secular doctors are talking about this, their alarm to say, I used to never treat patients under the age of 40. And now that's 80% of my clients is young men that say I can't get an erection with a real person anymore. If that's not evidence, you know, even just from the secular world, that pornography undermines real relationships. I don't know what else we need. And if it's near as a young man enough to go, my goodness, I don't ever want to be in that with a wife that I want to, you know, really be connected to. I don't know what else does. I mean, aside from also our our theological convictions about what's right and healthy. But there's just a very real evidence out there that this destroys the brain's functioning.

 

Alisa [00:55:29] You know, one thing, Nick, is we work with college students in particular here at the university. We really key in in our lectures on the impact on dating that porn can have and some of the research that we've looked at and that that we talk about in our class is that in a dating relationship, when there's pornography involved, it actually lowers the romantic commitment of the one who's viewing the porn. And for men, it lowers the level like you were talking about, Lois, the level of physical attraction that they experience to their girlfriend. Women are reluctant to enter into a relationship with someone when they if they know they're that it's a frequent that they're a frequent user. And here's the real kicker for them that I think makes them go, wow, that's a wakeup call to them. And it's the fact that that porn use usage increases the probability of a breakup by 400% in a dating relationship.

 

Chris [00:56:39] It does.

 

Nick [00:56:40] Not. It also increases the likelihood of an affair in a marriage by almost 50%.

 

Chris [00:56:44] By the century. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. You know, Lisa, those are just amazing stats. And and as you're saying them, I realize we probably stole a lot of these stats from Nick and didn't even know it. My guess is.

 

Alisa [00:56:57] We need to put it Robertson there and we've.

 

Nick [00:56:59] Been partner Yeah.

 

Chris [00:57:01] It.

 

Nick [00:57:01] Came out a month ago so I doubt for us.

 

Chris [00:57:03] Okay. Yeah. But this report.

 

Nick [00:57:05] With Barna came out eight years ago.

 

Chris [00:57:07] Well, we will still them again and use them and now will be able to give proper credit because we can say, Hey, Nick Stumbo and the team at Barnard put this together. Nick, you know, last question, last thing you want to say to our listeners that you were like, Man, I just want them to hear this. What would you say that that, for example, I'm thinking about your freedom and what you felt and forgiveness. But the freedom, though, comes at a cost of work and effort and a church that is intentional about doing this. So final concluding thoughts, Nick, on this very difficult topic.

 

Nick [00:57:54] My encouragement to any listener is to think about when do I need to ask for help? And I think one of the challenges we face is we see pornography often as benign or static. It's just like this thing and yeah, once in a while. But the truth is, in all the things we've been talking about, it is progressive in nature and everybody sees it. And in every research or every anecdotal study about people's experience, it does not leave you where you are. It creates the need for more or different or greater. And so right now, you might be at a place of feeling like, well, yeah, I mean, there's a little bit in my life, as we talked about, maybe you're in the 49% that so I'm uncomfortable with how much porn I use. It's only once in a while. It's no big deal. Right. But it's not going to leave you there. Pornography and sin issues in our life never stay static. It always takes us further and further until we get to a point where we realize this has taken me further than I ever meant to go. Kept me longer than I ever thought I'd stay and cost me more than I ever wanted to pay. And nobody plans to go there. The problem is that we don't make plans to avoid that. And so if you look at your life and go, Yeah, there's some porn use, what do I do? Look at this is an area that you can find healing. You can find freedom, but you have to be willing to take some of those steps. And so my encouragement is don't wait until it ruins a marriage. Don't wait until it's taken you across the line you thought you've never crossed. If it's in there, deal with it fully and finally. So you can look at your friends or your family or people that you're dating or married to and say, I'm free of this and I'm going to continue walking in freedom. And so take those steps now, because if you don't, I ask often the question is I present at conferences. If you don't do this, where will you be a year from now? And if you're sitting in this room now and you've done nothing new, where do you think you'll be? And the truth is, like, do you still want to be battling the same old stuff and in that same cycle of binge purge? Or what if you were sitting here a year from now and said, This is out of my life, I'm headed a new trajectory? Wouldn't that be worth some time, some effort and some engagement, if you can see that and go for it, because there are resources like pure desire and others that can help. But you've got to be willing to take some of those first steps.

 

Alisa [01:00:16] You know, that's I love that, Nick. And here I think what you're talking about, where could you be in a year? Because, yeah, if you go through the steps that you need to take to get freedom from this addiction, freedom from this area of sin in your life, it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard. It's going to be painful. Yes. And you know what else? If you don't take those steps like you said, guess what? That's going to be hard. And that's going to be painful. And so choose the hard choose the pain that is going to bring the best result and be the most help for you and your marriage.

 

Chris [01:00:58] I love that. At least that's exactly it. You're still going to be facing this. And either way, you're in for a journey.

 

Alisa [01:01:05] There is no option. See, that is easy. You only have option A, you stay where it is and it's hard. Option B, you make the the take the steps you need to to obtain freedom with the power of the Holy Spirit. And that's hard to get to your heart. Yeah. Yes.

 

Chris [01:01:21] You know, I think that's right for better. I love what Paul says in First Corinthians six. He talks about you say, you know, I'm allowed to do anything, but not everything is good for you. And even though I'm allowed to do anything, I must not become a slave to anything. And then he challenges his readers to say, you know, hey, run in that same chapter, one verse before even after that it says, Run from sexual sin. Now, to me, what I would say is it don't run and hide. Don't run into your own heart and don't run from things. Instead, run to the church. Run to help, run to pure desire. Run to that person that you can listen to. And that's what it means to say run when it says, you know, because it wages a war against your very soul.

 

Nick [01:02:13] Yeah, so true.

 

Alisa [01:02:14] Yeah. So, Nick, what are some of the resources that we can link to in our show notes that Pure Desire has? And we'll talk about one that we have to, but what are, what are the resources that you have?

 

Nick [01:02:27] Yeah. If anyone visits Pure desire, dawg, we have a number of free resources there. We do a weekly podcast, we do regular blogs. We have tools that people in group are using to find freedom. And I would say we also have two free ebooks, one for strugglers or those that this is their battle. Five Steps to freedom from pornography. And for spouses are on that other side of betrayal and hurt and wondering what can I trust? We have an e-book called Seven Keys to Understanding Betrayal, and both of those are free. You can find them right there on our website under our resources tab. And that could get you started in understanding this and what your steps need to look like. So visit us appeared as our.org and we'd love to connect with you more if you've got questions for us.

 

Chris [01:03:09] I love you. That pure desire, dawg. Nick Strummer. Yes, I said stumble, right? Yeah. And Nick, I know that if they asked you to come out and speak here, not only at our university, at Viola, but at any place, I know you'd say, Man, if I can't make it, I'll send someone who can. Thank you for for being at that battle. You know, that that tip of the spear right where you are at the forefront of this. Thank you. At the cmr.biola.edu. We have similar resources. We're going to of course, link you guys a nick right up with that. You know, we put together. Yeah, I've created a scale. One of the skills that we created is help students tremendously. It's a scale of from 1 to 10 when when to be concerned. And so level one, you know, hey, I little to no viewing. I don't have anything, you know, in there. It's it's impossible not to see some things at times, but it just has no impact on me. That's no concerns level one all the way down to levels, you know, seven, eight, nine and ten, which we use the purity Report to help us understand some of those levels as well. And so they can find that at cmr.biola.edu.

 

Alisa [01:04:25] We actually call it. It's a it's a scale. It's called am I addicted? And regarding pornography. And it can really help you assess where you are because we've had we've, we've seen people on both ends of the of the scale where no it popped up on my social media. I wasn't looking for it, but I saw it for a minute and yeah, I followed the link once, but you know, I've never done it again. But I'm worried. And to all the way to, you know, illegal things that you would actually be arrested for and this scale can really help you assess where you are in the kind of help that you need to seek. And Nick, I'll tell you this too, that when we're out in the in the field speaking with family life at their weekend to remember conferences when we're speaking for Focus on the Family, we refer to Pure desire, dawg. Because like I said, without exception, this is an issue that comes up that people ask for help. And so we're out there speaking to thousands and thousands of people every year, and we're telling them about your organization. And we just really want to thank you for having this as a resource. It is vital. It is vitally needed, and we're really grateful for you and being on the front lines with us to have to have the kind of help to help people build and sustain healthy, Christ centered relationships in marriages.

 

Chris [01:05:57] Nick Man, when my wife shouts out like that, it means something, man. She we do. We use you and talk about this at our conferences. So you probably know that we're going to keep driving. So listeners go and see what Nick and his team have put together. Nick, thank you for joining us. What's your last thing? Anything? You're good.

 

Nick [01:06:21] So grateful. Good resources can be hard to find in this area and whatever we can do to help offer them, that's what we're here for. We want to equip churches. We want to equip student groups. You know, I mentioned that we sent a number of books to that student group basically at cost because we knew for college students that's hard to afford. And if if someone else is listening is on a campus or has a student group is like, what can you do for us? You know, reach out and let's see what we can do? Because we don't want a financial barrier to keep someone from diving in and get into those resources because there's help available. But we got to take those steps and that's what we're here for.

 

Chris [01:06:54] And. Wonderful. And and and if out there one of your gifting is to give and to donate, you donate to the Center for Marriage and Relationships first and then you can go to pure desire and donate to them. So I know those are great places. Check it out. Nick, thank you for being.

 

Alisa [01:07:13] Thanks.

 

Chris [01:07:14] Just a wonderful guest on on a topic that deserves to be brought to the light. And you've done that very well. Thank you.

 

Nick [01:07:21] Yeah, Thank you. So glad to be here.

 

Alisa [01:07:23] Yeah. We want to tell our listeners thank you and our viewers. Thank you for joining us today on The Art of Relationships. We hope that you will hit that subscribe button that you give us five stars. And you know why. If you know somebody in your life that is struggling with this issue or needs to have a conversation with their with their significant other about this topic of pornography. We were in there really encourage you to share. Hit that share button and send it to someone that you know that it will be a helpful resource and because it will help them and it'll help us to here at the Art of Relationships. So thanks for joining us today and we'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.

 

Chris [01:08:05] Bye bye bye.

 

Mandy [01:08:08] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.