Can COVID-19 be a Friendship Breaker?

COVID-19 has changed almost everything about relationships in 2020. Stay 6 feet apart, don't gather in groups, and work from home. On this week's podcast, Dr. Chris Grace and Dr. Tim Muuehlhoff discuss the social tension and division created by the pandemic. They answer listener questions about masks, how to respond when friends and family have differing opinions on social distancing, and confronting marital issues. If you have a question you'd like us to answer in one of our upcoming podcasts, you can ask us here!

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. For additional resources on healthy relationships, like videos, blogs, or events near you, visit our website at cmr.biola.edu.

Chris Grace:

Welcome to another Art of Relationships podcast. I'm sitting here with Dr. Tim Muehlhoff, a communications expert, and my name is Chris Grace, I'm a psychologist. Tim, we've been doing these podcasts for awhile now and they go out to a lot of different places.

Tim Muehlhoff:

Right. I've heard that we're over 120,000 countries. Is that true? Did I make that up?

Chris Grace:

No, it's close. It's 120, but it's pretty close to the 120,000. I wonder how many countries there really are. There's got to be 4000, 5000 countries out there.

Tim Muehlhoff:

Hey, but we don't take this for granted. We're joking around right now. But listen, we do not take for granted the scope of this podcast, how many people listen to it. We get questions and comments from people all over the world.

Chris Grace:

Yeah. If you have questions, CMR, Center for Marriage and Relationships, that's cmr.biola.edu. And Tim, people send in questions all of the time. And so, let's do this, let's take a few of those questions. And also, Tim, let's sprinkle in some of the most common questions you and I get at conferences, some of the most common things we get, and let's just talk about some of these. So here's one, and it's related to the times. And we're in a very difficult time with COVID.

    And this listener, she loves the podcast. And one topic she wants to hear about is how the virus, COVID, has separated a lot of people, some who wear a mask, for example, and take things seriously, and some who say, "You know what? It's not that important, and we're going to go gather with friends," and they still throw parties. And so this listener says, "Hey, people are throwing parties and they invite me and I politely decline because I just simply feel like this virus is not being taken seriously enough and I don't want to get sick or turn people into sick. My coworkers, friends listen to me, they understand, but then they go and just go do." And she says, "I just feel so sad and upset. I'm so confused." Is this a deal breaker for a friendship or is she being overly sensitive?

Tim Muehlhoff:

Well, one, that's a great question. And she's not alone. This has really become a divisive issue among communities and families. So let me just say this from a non-Christian perspective and then just let me grab it from a Christian perspective. So non-Christian perspective, a communication climate is made up of trust, commitment, acknowledgement, and expectations. So one could say we invite you to a party and you say no because of concerns, you are not committed to the friendship. So I think it's perfectly fine to say, "No, I'm not going to go because I am committed to wearing a mask and I have to think about everybody that I could, in fact, by going to a party where they're not social distancing or adhering to the mask regulations." So I would say, "I'm going to say no." No doubt the communication climate just took a hit because they might feel like you're not committed.

    So I would look for other ways to show my commitment. But I wouldn't go against my convictions or better judgment. I simply would recognize the communication climate took a hit, thus I'm going to now try to show my commitment in other ways to be present. From a Christian perspective, I think, this is me, I think when Paul says, "Give preference to one another." Right? I think we give preference to those who really feel strongly about wearing a mask. Even if you don't, it is nothing for me to give preference and wear a mask. Chris, what do you think?

Chris Grace:

Well, I do believe, Tim, that you have a unique situation that we are all facing here and it's really caused quite a divide. I don't think this is a friendship breaker. I don't think she's being maybe a little bit too sensitive that if her friends want to go and do this and she doesn't want to participate, then she just simply says, "Well, go do and have fun and I'll talk to you guys maybe next month. And we could still talk individually, I just won't attend these parties where I just feel so conflicted about what's happening." I just think she just needs to go ahead and, with confidence, say, "Well, I'm not going to judge you guys, that's what you want to do. And I wish it was different, but go and do and I'll see you the next time maybe."

Tim Muehlhoff:

Okay. But let me make it more complicated, Chris.

Chris Grace:

Okay.

Tim Muehlhoff:

So what if you are friends and you honestly think, "You guys are making a bad decision." Not only is this a bad decision, it's a dangerous decision. Don't you think if, again, if the friendship is strong enough, the communication climate is healthy enough, I would want to be able to sit with my friends and say, "Guys, I'm just really concerned about this."

Chris Grace:

Yeah. Well, Tim, let's even make it even more complicated. It's a family member. Right? Now you have kids at home and some of them want to follow this. And some are like, "I'm not following. I don't care. I'm going to go out with my friends. None of them are showing any symptoms. When I go with these four or five people, we always are careful. But I'm not going to isolate myself or quarantine for 14 days." I come back and the parents and maybe your other siblings are like, "Wait a minute. You're putting us all at risk." Tim, that can break a family apart real quickly because of just different views about a very scary situation. And rightly, there's a lot of emotion behind this. But with families, it gets complicated.

Tim Muehlhoff:

And that's what the early church had to deal with. Right? You're bringing together Jews and Gentiles. And the Jewish converts still feel very strongly about food restrictions.

Chris Grace:

That's a great point.

Tim Muehlhoff:

And the Gentiles, believers, are saying, "Get out of here. That doesn't apply to me." Paul steps in and says, "Do not merely look out for your own interests, but the interests of others." I would hope, Chris, that a Christian church, a Christian community, and a Christian family would deal with this better, in more complex ways, than non-Christians because we have such Biblical precedent to look out for the concerns of other people. So again, for me, it is nothing to wear a mask. For me.

    So I'm going to give on this one because of the concerns that people have. And it doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but not to ... So we don't want to minimize the concerns of other people, but when a family sits down, this is systems theory. Now we're going to see how much we're interconnected with each other or are we all just going to go our different ways? And guess what? We've got elderly grandparents, we've got preconditions. So this could be a diagnostic time. And maybe for some of us, we're going to realize, "Yeah, I don't think our family was as strong as we thought we were, or interconnected." But maybe that could lead to future healthy conversations.

Chris Grace:

Yeah. Yeah. Boy, and it has this recipe for, like you said, uncovering things that have always been there, they've just never had a chance to surface. So I think it was a great question, Tim, especially for these times.

Tim Muehlhoff:

By the way, can I jump on this under the surface, but now coming out? So another thing about COVID is a lot of relationships, a lot of families did perfectly fine because we were never around each other. Right? There were issues, but you're off doing your thing, I'm doing my thing, we never see each other. Now with COVID, we're on top of each other and realizing, "Oh man, I don't think we're as healthy as we thought." So just take that, to me, as a positive. This has uncovered some hard things. Now let's talk about ... And again, give yourself grace. All of us are off center. COVID's put us all off centered. We're dealing with unnatural pressure, almost like we're living in a foreign country. So give each other grace. But maybe this is a nice learning moment to say, "You know, there were things below the surface. Now they've come up. We need to deal with them."

Chris Grace:

Yeah. And it could be with friendships. Most likely it's with family members. And you might even have the same agreements about things. But like you said, Tim, after being in the same room with you for ever and ever, what feels like, you begin to see things very different. And I would just suggest that people begin to recognize that there are many more things going on. Somebody irritates you because they continue to leave their cereal out and they continue to not close the cabinets or whatever it is that irritates you. That most likely, at that point, you're looking at something that's a deeper issue. And if you can do that, we've had podcasts, Tim, on what we in psychology call events versus issues. Getting upset about this thing that goes on. That's the event. When in reality, it's driven by a deeper kind of feeling like you're not being heard or understood or your perspective isn't being listened to. And so, Tim, listeners ought to go back and check that out as well.

Tim Muehlhoff:

Yeah. Do you got another one? Another question?

Chris Grace:

Yeah. So this couple, well, actually, it's a person who wants to know about therapy and just struggles because the other partner, I'm trying to protect them a little bit, but the other partner simply is unwilling to go. And they're asking for advice. "How do I handle it when I know we need help, I need help, but my partner simply refuses? What are my options? What do I do?" And Tim, I think whether it's financial, whether it's just emotional, there's so many reasons why a person feels uncomfortable going to counseling.

    And it could very well be that it's similar to a couple we counseled with just yesterday. And it was a woman who called about some friends of hers. And their friends, she just simply checked out. She wants nothing to do with the marriage anymore. They've been married 28 years, Tim. And the question she had is how do we convince her to go get help? How do we convince her to go let somebody else come in when she's kind of checked out? So that's a lot of questions in there, but it's all about that same theme about when do we go get help?

Tim Muehlhoff:

Well, let me start with the last comment you made and then work backwards. You can't force a person to get therapy. You can make an argument, you can ask, but you force a person into therapy, it's going to be a nightmare. So it's frustrating, but I would still say to a person, "Go get therapy yourself." For two reasons. One, you need to be healthy. And that way you have a reservoir to be able to now work on the marriage. And second, you need tools. You need tools in your toolbox. The psychologists and marriage, family therapists can give us great tools. So I would absolutely say, "Go get counseling yourself." Right? And then apply the stuff you're learning to the other person. But you cannot, it's so frustrating, you can't force a person to do anything.

Chris Grace:

Yeah. No, Tim, that's good. And I think we've covered this topic before, but it still is a great reminder for listeners that there's so much you could do with a friend, with a trusted partner, you can develop and grow. But we counseled, like I said, this woman yesterday to say sometimes you simply reach your limit on what you're on your helpfulness and what you can do, and you just have to find that trusted person. And so, one of the things we do at CMR, the Center for Marriage and Relationships here at Biola University, Tim, is we provide great referrals to counseling agencies, both here in Southern California, but throughout the country. This person was in Colorado Springs. Another person that we know in Chicago, others in different places that are great resources for couples. And for single people.

Tim Muehlhoff:

Yeah, absolutely. And I can't tell you how many people have come up to me at conferences and said, "Okay, let me tell you the reason I went back to church. It had such an impact on my spouse. I saw such a change. And I thought, 'Well, I need to go do this.'" I've also had people say, "You know why I'm here at this marriage conference? Because my spouse has been listening to this podcast for years or has been listening to FamilyLife Radio for years. I've noticed a big difference. So guess what? I'm kind of open to it now. I want to get what they got because it seems to be helping." So that, to me, offers hope that a person could witness what therapy is doing for you and it's making an impact, and now they're open. "I got to get some of that because you're really kind of a different person." Doesn't always work that way, but I've heard enough stories that if you really do make life changes, it might be attractive to your spouse now to join in.

Chris Grace:

No, that's great. Let's try another one and then I'll ask you some common questions that you get at conferences. A single person writes they're not quite sure if they're too picky or not, but every couple of months, after being in a relationship, they just find themselves no longer attracted. And they find themselves bouncing, literally every month, to the next relationship and the next relationship. And they're healthy to begin with, but they begin to see things in the other person, they lose interest over time. And they want to know, is this a bad sign? Am I doing this wrong, basically, by only staying .... Finding that the relationship no longer is of interest, or at least I don't think there's a future and I kind of check out at that point? So what would you say to that single person who constantly finds themselves getting into a relationship, but then soon realizing, "Oh, they're not the perfect person and I'm going to go ahead and get out?"

Tim Muehlhoff:

Okay. So I would be totally fine if she ... Is it a he or she? Do we know this?

Chris Grace:

It would be a she.

Tim Muehlhoff:

Okay, a she. I would be fine if she said, "I date people fairly regularly and we've gone on dates. And then after a month, I just feel like, 'Yeah, I just don't see it with this person.'" Right? And so, yeah, that's dating. That's good. I like that. But she used the phrase getting in and out of relationships. That concerns me. Yeah. I don't think you should be getting in and out of exclusive relationships at such a quick pace. I would say, "Hey, why are you committing to these relationships so quickly and early? Just keep it at a dating level." And then I would ask the question, what is it that is causing these relationships to flame out so quickly? Are you moving too quickly with these relationships and there's just nowhere for them to go? But dating wise, I think we need to date more. Those of single listeners, I think you need to date more to find out who you're compatible with, but I'm not advocating jumping in and out of committed relationships.

Chris Grace:

Yeah, Tim. So you bring up a very important point and that is your definition of dating. And what I just heard you say is that dating is not exclusive. Right? In other words, I'm with this one person, but I'm open to the idea that there might be ... I could see other people during this time because we haven't yet gotten to know each other long enough to have an exclusive. And I wonder if this person is struggling a little bit with understanding what's the definition of dating? What does that mean? So any other advice like that. Don't be exclusive and make sure you keep opening your other friendships. Maybe, Tim, one thing I would say is maybe you need to see how you're judging what is good or bad in a relationship, and your judgment might be that you're not giving enough grace to people.

Tim Muehlhoff:

And what are you envisioning the relationship to look like? What boxes do you want? So let me talk about me and Noreen real quick. We lived next to each other in an apartment complex. Literally she was the apartment right next door. We worked together. We traveled once a week to Wright State University with Campus Crusade for Christ, developed a great friendship. And Doreen had it in her mind, "Tim's a really good friend. I'm not interested in dating whatsoever. Because he's a good friend, he's my buddy, he's my coworker. I don't want to do any of this." And then it changed, it just started to change. Right? And by the way, we had to have a couple interesting conversations because I definitely was interested. Right? And then slowly, she started to change her perspective.

    So I would say to this woman, "Hey, so maybe you're expecting sparks to fly in a way that I think is unrealistic. And at the end of the day, you want to marry a person you're a friend with." And again, I think this is part of the American romantic narrative that I have one criteria for friends and one criteria for my romantic interests. And Chris, I think that has gotten people in trouble over the long haul. I mean, now that we know what marriage is like, how long we've been married, aren't you glad that you married a friend?

Chris Grace:

Oh yeah.

Tim Muehlhoff:

Oh my gosh.

Chris Grace:

It's the probably single best part of your relationship in marriage is that friendship.

Tim Muehlhoff:

Yep.

Chris Grace:

Well, Tim, I think the only counter I would have is that this person may actually, if they're using discernment the right way, they're learning a lot about what's important. And they need to, here's just a simple side point, they need to not go to the extreme where they settle for second best. They find somebody they know clearly they just ... Another part of the question was their sense of humor, they're just too sharp or biting, but I learned that over time that they kind of aren't ... We don't have the share the same sense of humor. Well-

Tim Muehlhoff:

Which is huge.

Chris Grace:

It is huge. In fact, you wouldn't want to say to yourself, "Well, you know what? I've been in and out of so many relationships, I'm just going to ignore that big difference." And humor is probably one of those variables that you don't want to ignore. If you don't laugh together or have that kind of relationship, then I would say, "Keep that up. Don't settle for second best."

Tim Muehlhoff:

Now, I agree with that, Chris. Do not settle. But I think every once in a while, it's important for a third party to look at your criteria.

Chris Grace:

Oh, good, yeah.

Tim Muehlhoff:

I mean, to be honest, Chris, there's only one Tim Muehlhoff and he's off the market. Right?

Chris Grace:

Someone's got to go for the next second best.

Tim Muehlhoff:

The second tier, baby.

Chris Grace:

The second tier, baby. Well, yeah, no, that's good advice for singles. So Tim, you got a question for us as well?

Tim Muehlhoff:

Well, so here's a very common one. You and I speak at Christian marriage conferences. Here's a question I get a lot. Would God have me stay in an unhappy marriage? Chris, I get that a lot. I would love to hear what you say. I basically say, "Listen, God does not want you to stay in an unhappy marriage. He wants to change the marriage."

Chris Grace:

Yeah. He wants to change you.

Tim Muehlhoff:

He wants to change the marriage. Yeah. He wants to change you. Unhappiness, the horrible, perpetual unhappiness is not fun. That is not a Biblical reason to move out of the marriage relationship.

Chris Grace:

Yeah. And nor is it permanent. It's not permanent. Unhappiness and happiness itself are these dynamic traits that follow all relationships. And if we base it solely on if this person makes me happy, what drives me crazy are people that are outside, sometimes, the Biblical worldview or model and they have really only that variable to go on by choosing a spouse or a partner. And do they make me happy? Because the moment they stop making me happy is the moment they think, "Oh, I'm in the wrong relationship and I'm going to get out." Which is why Larry King, for example, this great interviewer and no doubt has a podcast out there. He's probably in his late '80s. He's on his eighth marriage.

Tim Muehlhoff:

Eighth marriage.

Chris Grace:

And my guess is he, I don't know, but I've heard him say he's agnostic and he doesn't really have beliefs like that. He's Jewish. But Tim, I would think if you believe that this person no longer makes me happy, you're going to therefore conclude and determine you must have made a wrong choice. And the Bible really doesn't use that criteria whatsoever.

Tim Muehlhoff:

And my spouse's job is not to make me happy.

Chris Grace:

That's right. That's right.

Tim Muehlhoff:

I have to find that.

Chris Grace:

Yeah.

Tim Muehlhoff:

And by the way, that's a no win proposition.

Chris Grace:

It is no win. That's right.

Tim Muehlhoff:

Your career can't make you happy. You make yourself happy within your career. So a study just came out that said the single greatest indicator of the happiness of any relationship is your perspective of the relationship. Do you notice the positives or the negatives? Right? And this is positive psychology. So I really buy into that, especially when you're in the 10th year of the marriage. And it's like, "Hey, I need to be an adult here. I cannot expect my spouse to make me fully happy." Now, I think a spouse can detract from it and add to it, work together as a tandem. But at the end of the day, I'm the one who needs to find happiness purpose. And I think it's too much to look at a person and say, "Okay, you need to make me happy."

Chris Grace:

Yeah. Tim, what do you do with that when they ... I mean, I guess you point a person who asks this question, I try and point them back to what is the ultimate purpose of marriage? And that's kind of what we're getting at.

Tim Muehlhoff:

From a Christian perspective.

Chris Grace:

From a Christian perspective, if you're here at this conference, you no doubt at least have some Biblical interests. And what is the ultimate purpose? And God never said the ultimate purpose in life is to make you happy. Right? It's to grow closer to Jesus, it's to become more godlike. Right? Gary Thomas had that great quote, "What if the purpose of marriage wasn't to make you happy, but to make you holy?" Right? And so to try and convince the person that walks up and says that, I think, Tim, is really redirecting and changing their perspective on the question they're asking.

Tim Muehlhoff:

And this is the American culture. We are swimming upstream when we talk like this, because the American culture is so fixated on individual rights, individual happiness. In the 1950s, it was a totally different attitude. "I stay in this marriage for the kids." That's why I'm staying. And to be honest, my dad was in an unhappy marriage for 48 years. Why? For the kids. Today, it's the exact opposite. "I'm getting divorced for the kids because I don't want them to see me in an unhappy relationship." And again, God, isn't anti-happiness, but it's a derivative value. In other words, Lewis, C.S. Lewis would say, "If you go directly at it, you won't get it." It's derivative. So I think God does want us to be happy. It's just, as Gary Thomas said, it's not as high as priority. "Seek first the kingdom of God," Jesus says. "And you're going to get these things, but seek first my kingdom." That's going to involve pain, hardship, sacrifice, but I bet you we're going to get happiness, depending on how we define it, will be thrown in as a derivative value.

Chris Grace:

I love that idea, Tim, of what it means to ... The derivative value means it's something, almost like you're focusing on bringing, let's say, God pleasure, or growing in holiness, or making your life mean something by following God and what he wants to do. And that happiness seems to follow people who are committed to that. It's not like they're seeking it. And I think that is the message, Tim, that you've mentioned, not just our culture. Over time, cultures that have actually fallen and some who have just disappeared have mistakenly pursued pleasure at all costs and happiness becomes their ultimate goal.

Tim Muehlhoff:

Now, let me speak to our single listeners. Okay? We're having two different conversations. We're talking to married people. Let's talk to you. Find a person who does make you happy. Right? Find a person that you get along with, you share the same values, sense of humor might be one of those things. And guess what? I am happy with this person. I'm not depending on them to make me fully happy. That's me. But guess what? It's just easier to be happy when I'm with this person. Conversely, if you're like, "Ah, it's always two steps forward, three steps back when I'm dating this person. It's like we have good days, bad days." And I'm like, "Okay, be careful with that." But it's not too much, as a single, to say, "Boy, when I'm with this person, it's easier for me to be happy." That's not bad.

Chris Grace:

Yeah. And Tim, that leads to this very last question. And it's related to all of this. When do I know that the person I'm dating is the right one? And we get that a lot. How do I know? Does God come down? Do you just all of a sudden see stars? Do you feel this joy? How do I know that the person I'm dating is the right one? We get that a lot. I want to make a commitment to the person, but there are days where I doubt or it's not always perfect. I think your answer was great. Do you share things in common? Do you enjoy each other's presence? And not on a everyday single basis because you have conflicts. And so, Tim, how do you address that and what do you think?

Tim Muehlhoff:

All right. Here's what I'm going to say. It's a little bit of a crap shoot. Okay, you date this person, let's say you date this person two years. You do a good job. Two years. I say to my students, "That's nice. That's seeing the season of that person's life twice." Okay? You're seeing them good times, bad times. Good. Two years is great. Now, based on those two years, you think you can accurately judge whether you're going to be happy for the next 60?

Chris Grace:

40, 50, 60.

Tim Muehlhoff:

60? With all the unknowns that are going to happen? By the way, how's this person going to do as a parent? "Oh, I have no idea. We don't have kids." Okay. How are you going to know when this person loses his job or she gets some kind of chronic migraines, chronic illness, right? "Well, I don't know. We've not experienced that." Okay. Then you don't know what it's going to be like. So guess what? Here's the advice the older generation would give. Make it work. Make it work. And you know what? If that's your attitude, you got a job and you're like, "Man, I would do this over if I had it. Right? But I'm going to make this job work." That, to me, is an attitude we're losing a little bit today in culture. Chris says, "Hey, it takes 10 years to find the rhythm of your marriage anyway." But make it work with this person. And I think that's a good attitude that we're missing a little bit today. I think it's a crap shoot a little bit, Chris, I think.

Chris Grace:

Yeah. And maybe the word crap shoot is pejorative in some way. You might want to pick a different term. But there's always uncertainties. In the two years, you might not see how a person responds to everyday trauma or disappointment or brokenness, which could be great insights into them. Right? Do you like the way they suffer? And if you like the way they suffer, you may not see that or know that. You try and guess, and that's maybe the idea of a crap shoot. You try and predict based upon known behaviors that you see right in front of you.

Tim Muehlhoff:

And limited data.

Chris Grace:

Yeah. And you connect dots partially, which is a much better way of saying crap shoot. You try and connect-

Tim Muehlhoff:

I was using The Message. This was The Message.

Chris Grace:

Yeah. The Message version. Well, I'm going to stick with at least NIV at minimum. But I do think, Tim, that relationships always have a matter of uncertainty about them. But you go by past behavior, you go by connectedness. And how do you feel that this person shows up, let's say, with God? And do they make that a deep value for them?

Tim Muehlhoff:

See, and that's the equation, Chris, right there. Are we talking a Christian marriage? Well, then, guess what? God's going to be in this. And if you're seeking first his kingdom together, and by the way, your dating ought to be do we care about the kingdom in ways that I value? Do you exhibit kingdom values as we're in this dating relationship? Now, when you get married, you get hit with curveballs, trials, things I never in a million years anticipated we'd have to deal with. Right? Chronic migraines. Noreen. I didn't have chronic migraines when we were dating.

Chris Grace:

Baldness. You had hair.

Tim Muehlhoff:

Oh, come on. Yes, I did. I had a lot of hair. Chris, I had hair to my shoulders in high school. And I wore bell bottom jeans that covered my feet. I was hip, cool. Right? So yeah. So Chris, though, if a couple says, "We're going through this with God, and guess what? It's his kingdom first, the Muehlhoff's happiness second," you're going to work out this relationship. And I thank God. Right? So if we're talking non-Christian, I think the crap shoot factor is higher. But I just want to say though, to Christians, don't over-spiritualize this. You've been dating this person for a year and a half. Are you ready to go for the next 60, 70 years? Well, you will be if your attitude's in the right place. We're going to make this work till death do us part. Good times, bad times, health, poverty, we're in this.

Chris Grace:

And not settling for second best when there's significant differences in, let's say, a trait like humor or kindness or these values that you have are just off. They don't love God, let's say, and they just tolerate you going to church. They don't mind that.

Tim Muehlhoff:

Chris, that is so good.

Chris Grace:

You can't settle for second best. And that's why other people need to speak into this.

Tim Muehlhoff:

And then let me say this.

Chris Grace:

In the ending.

Tim Muehlhoff:

This is what I've seen. Committed believers in their 20s would not even give this person a second look, would not even get this person a second look. They get into their 30s, mid-30s, and again, I think this is a little gender specific. I've seen it with committed Christian women who now are in the mid-30s, late 30s, and tragic, heartbreaking, Chris, heartbreaking seeing them commit to a guy they wouldn't have given the second look at it in their 20s. But now their biological clock is ticking, I feel the pressure from culture, which is totally unfair towards women. And now in their late 30s, they're with this person and it breaks your heart. You're like, "Oh, don't do this." So I get the pressure. But man, marriage can be the worst thing you've ever done in your life if you're with the wrong person. Right, Chris? We've seen it.

Chris Grace:

Yeah. Yeah. No, well-

Tim Muehlhoff:

The bald comment hurt, Chris. I'm just being transparent right now. I'm just ...

Chris Grace:

No, it was just ripe for the picking right there, baby. Low hanging fruit. There's a lot more, I just picked one. Ah, we better end the podcast here because they're ripe. Tim, it's always good talking with you and dealing with listeners questions. There's more. Write to us at the Center for Marriage and Relationships, cmr.biola.edu.

Tim Muehlhoff:

And if you're in one of the 120,000 countries, shoot us an email.

Chris Grace:

Hopefully in English. Shoot us an email, other 20,000 languages out there.

Tim Muehlhoff:

Hey, we welcome all of them. We'll get it translated.

Chris Grace:

Hey Tim, it was nice talking to you.

Tim Muehlhoff:

Hey, it's great.

Speaker 1:

Have you ever been asked to mentor a young married couple, but were afraid to say yes? Thankfully, the Center for Marriage and Relationships is here to help. The CMR's marriage mentoring curriculum covers important topics like communication, forgiveness, and the ever important sexual intimacy. It even provides tips on when and how to refer a couple for professional help. Sound interesting? Check out the resources page on our website at cmr.biola.edu.