In this episode, Chris and Alisa Grace explore the parenting approaches of gentle parenting and tough love. They discuss the core principles, benefits, and potential pitfalls of each method—clarifying common misconceptions like equating gentle parenting with permissiveness or tough love with harshness. Through personal stories, practical examples, and thoughtful dialogue, they offer insights to help parents strike a healthy balance between empathy and structure. Whether you're parenting toddlers, teens, or navigating differences with your spouse in your parenting styles, this episode offers valuable advice to help you raise emotionally healthy, respectful, and secure children.

Resources Mentioned:

• The Art of Parenting – FamilyLife
  A six-week online course to help parents develop a clear parenting plan with biblical principles. Great for small groups or individual study.
• Boundaries with Kids by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend
  A practical guide to teaching children responsibility and setting healthy boundaries from a biblical perspective.
• Boundaries with Teens by Dr. John Townsend
  Equips parents to establish healthy boundaries with their teenagers while staying connected and supportive.

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

Mandy [00:00:01] Welcome to The Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, let's get right into it.

Alisa [00:00:11] Hey, welcome to another episode of The Art of Relationships. I'm Alisa Grace. This is my husband, Dr. Chris Grace. The doctor is in. And we are brought to you by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships So Chris, today we have a really great topic that I know that we love discussing as parents of three kids ourselves, now grandparents even. What are the topics that we want to tackle today? Parenting and so looking at some two of the leading parenting theories and methods so unpacking that a little bit looking at the difference between gentle parenting and tough love maybe unpacking a little bit why is it even important why do we need to know that how would you define it and then what is the healthiest way to move forward

Chris [00:01:07] Yeah, I think our favorites, my favorite saying when our kids were little were, you know, Ask your mom. Yeah, ask your mom, and then it was the three S's, sit down, shut up, and stop driving me crazy. I don't know where that falls. We now taught all of our kids and we've now started teaching our grandkids as well that whenever I raise my voice, they're to say, yes, sir. And if you guys want to do this, here's the best parenting tip of all time. I tell them, if I tell you to sit down and obey me, what do you say? And I tell the answer is say, yes, sir. And they say, Yes, sir, that's right. If I tell to sit, now it sometimes takes a piece of candy that first time said, then I'm all right, now ready? Good, good job, here's some candy. Now if I told you to go to bed right now, what do say? And they said, Yes sir. That's it, that right. I think at least those are some of our favorite parenting staff. I think my other favorite one when it comes to tough love and parenting or permissive. Is uh the the other one is is teaching them a play you know like jumping on the bed and then I knock them with the pillow and they just think it's the funniest thing in the world and I say I'm gonna whoop you good and so all of our kids I did that you want me to whoop you and after a few minutes of play they're like yeah yeah I'ma whoop you and I knock them over well that phrase can be used amazingly right I see them all the time in the day daddy will you whoop us Man, I love parenting. Yes, I'm gonna whoop you, but first you need to finish your dinner and take your bath. Yes, sir. Yes, sure. Then you'll whoop us, then I'm going to whoop your good. So, I used to come in, Daddy, will you whoop now? And he'd be like, son, you, I don't know, did you do your homework? Did you do that? Yeah, Daddy, I did it. You know, he's a kinder guy. I did do it. All right, well, I'll whoope you in just a little bit. Let me go get a snack. Oh, Daddy please whoop me now.

Alisa [00:02:59] While other parents are sitting there going, what is going on wherever?

Chris [00:03:04] Yeah, we had some friends over the house, like, Daddy, will you whoop us? I said, did you get your bath done? Yeah, Daddy, we're all bathed. We all did everything. All right, give me five minutes, I'll whoop you. Oh, Daddy how about in three minutes? All right. They're like, ugh. What kind of parenting are you?

Alisa [00:03:17] You know what though, as a mom, I could be in the kitchen while you're back there in the bedroom whooping up on them, and the screaming and the laughter and the giggling just, it just warmed my heart. And even now as a grandparent, I hear you back there roughhousing with them, the boys and the girls alike, and they adore you. They love Gigi, but they adore Doc. Doc is his grandpa name. And that they just love it. Yeah.

Chris [00:03:47] Well, it all starts with building a connection with kids and parents are so busy, Lise, and the question that you addressed at the beginning, that we get asked all the time is, well, I want to be the parent that's liked and loved, you know, I want them to think I'm cool, I'm fun, I am friendly, but I also got to...

Alisa [00:04:07] Parent this person. We want them to grow up to be successful, loving, healthy adults. We what to do parenting well and we want to do it in a way that honors God, honors our child, and honors us as parents as well.

Chris [00:04:23] Okay, if one of you is the tough love and one of you is to let anything go, because we kind of fell a little bit into that, Lise, where you had this amazing personality, maybe it came from a little of your background and your parenting, you know, when you were a child, but. Thank you, daddy. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And you just were a natural at it. And what I mean is this, you're a great disciplinarian. You do it with kindness and love. You hold standards, and they can't be, you know, if they mess up, they're going to face this. You know, you do it. And I just sit there in amazement, like, I'll be honest with you, I got a degree in these areas, and I turn to you to watch this. I think we fell into the pattern a little bit where you held the line. And I'm like, all right, don't tell your mom, you know? Here's more chocolate. There's a great cup.

Alisa [00:05:24] Commercial out there. Don't tell your mom. Have you seen that? Oh my gosh, it's fuzzing.

Chris [00:05:29] So yeah, there's a little bit of that. I think it's rare to have two very tough parents, or two very permissive parents, but the...

Alisa [00:05:39] Maybe it's not as rare as we think. Yeah, I think so too. And I think to your question, what if you have two like that that are really different? Because I would say if you and I had to fall into these camps, if we were forced to put ourselves in these camps. I would see that the two prevailing thoughts out there are the gentle parenting and tough love, right? I would think you probably fall more into the gentle parenting. And I fall more into the tough love. However, blending us together brought a real balance and your graceful approach really softened some of my harsher edges and my structure really brought a little bit more firmness and structure to your approach. So together we were actually even better.

Chris [00:06:33] Yeah, I agree. You had very little harshness. It was more on the love, a good mix of talking. But all that to say, one of the things that happens is we oftentimes parent the way we were parented, and we also have models, but we're not restricted to that. If you grew up in one of these homes that was messed up or erred too extreme, you're not doomed to repeat that. I believe we need to let couples and people know that are starting a family. You're not doomed to repeat that, you can break that cycle and you can do it by recognizing how do I mix these two well?

Alisa [00:07:08] Yeah, and I love that saying by C.S. Lewis when he says you can't go back and change your beginning, but you can start right where you are and you can change your ending. And so it's not too late. If you don't like the way you're parenting and you're hearing some things as we go on and we discuss this and you hear some things that you're like, oh gosh, that's kind of me, I'd really like to change that. It's not to late and you start today and change the way pair.

Chris [00:07:36] Yeah, well, let's start with the first one. Let's start maybe with this idea of permissiveness, okay? Or gentle parenting or permissive-ness? Because those are two different things. Yeah, that's what I want. Let's draw it out. Okay. What's the difference between gentle, the gentle or the tough love, or I'm sorry, the gentleness, right, and permiss-iveness? Because there's a lot of things that can be blurred here.

Alisa [00:08:00] Sure. Yeah. Yeah, and in fact, I would say that probably there's gentle parenting and taken to the extreme where it's unhealthy would become permissive. Permissive parenting. And then for tough love, taken to extreme becomes harsh parenting and does some, yeah, and does damage. So let's start with gentle parenting, and just a classic textbook definition of it. Would be this, the focus is on emotional attunement, empathy, right, and attachment. And so gentle parenting is not just letting your kids have the run of the show and do whatever they want. That is not what we're talking about. It's about teaching them how to regulate their emotions, their feelings, meaning to manage their emotions. How to recognize them, label their emotions and then also to be accountable for that. And to do that through an attitude of respect, and that respect comes through that emotional, personal relationship and connection between the parent and the child, as well as offering guidance within that relationship. So it's not just letting them go about do willy-nilly what they want, but it's really working with them, guiding them, building relationship with them. And helping them regulate those emotions and their behavior without resorting to punishment or shame.

Chris [00:09:30] Yeah, and so to bring this home, some of us have children that are pretty mellow, pretty easy. They don't have a lot of emotional kind of outbreaks. Breaks. But to be honest, almost every kid can go from, you know, zero to a hundred instantly.

Alisa [00:09:52] Oh gosh, if they're two or three, or they're 13 or 14.

Chris [00:09:56] Yeah, so they can go to these emotional extremes, so we all know that. The question is, what do we do in the middle of that, right? You love this kid sitting there, they're having, you know, you bring out their treat, which is a popsicle, and you hand them the popsicle and the top breaks off. And they just are, like, crazy mad, right, because here's my expectation of a popsical and it broke. It's like, well, sweetie, it's devastating. Yeah, and it's demonstrating. I think that notion of attunement, right, figuring it out, what I think, Lisa, couples or people that are in that situation differ in that, but it might push in them like, yeah, I'm grateful, kid, just eat it, it's still there, don't want it.

Alisa [00:10:43] Enabling bad behavior.

Chris [00:10:44] Yeah, or, okay, here, honey, let me go fix it, you know, but versus, I think, Lisa, what you called is this attunement or emotional empathy or identifying. Say, sweetie, hold on, I know this is frustrating. I know that this is a drag, because you really like the popsicle. You're really sad that it's a drag. And there's no other popsicles. If there was, I'd give you another one, and I'd eat this one, but there's, no, this is the last one, or we get picked to that. And I think recognizing and saying, it's okay to be frustrated, right? It's okay, I know I get this.

Alisa [00:11:14] I would be frustrated too, yeah, validating that.

Chris [00:11:17] Validating that and then being able versus don't react this way, you know, that strong kind of, or permissiveness, well, let's just go buy you another one, honey, stop, I'll go get two more, you now, and pretty soon that kid learns, all right, this permissive parent is pretty easy, all I got to do is wail and scream and not be happy and they're going to go buy me something like. Who's the one, you know, in Willy Wonka? You know, she got everything she ever wanted. Oh, yeah. The violet, whatever. And, you, know, anything she wanted because it was too permissive.

Alisa [00:11:52] Right, exactly. And so let's say that you have a child that has not followed your instructions to clean their room, right? And said, honey, you need to go pick up your toys and then we'll get ready for bed. And let's see if they don't do it. Okay, so a permissive parenting might be like, oh, don't worry about it. I'll go in and pick them up. We just need to get you in the bathtub. Don't worry, so I'll just go do it Right, a permissive parenting is almost, it's a kind of peace at any cost kind of parenting. Yeah, you just wanna avoid the fight, you wanna avoid conflict, so I'll just do it, or just let it go because we don't want an outburst. Whereas with the gentle parenting, it would be, you know, in a healthy way saying, come to the child that hasn't picked up their toys. Sweetheart, you need to pick up your toys because we need to have our house cleaned before we go to bed, because. Everybody else has to live in our house, too. And so nobody likes to live a mess. So I need you to pick up your toys and then we're gonna go get in the bathtub. And let's say that they still haven't done it. You come back in five minutes and they still have not done it

Chris [00:13:05] scream and yell and there are they're having a camp.

Alisa [00:13:09] So then, in gentle parenting, what that would look like is you acknowledge their frustration. So I can see that you're feeling very frustrated and upset about having to pick up your toys. It's not very fun, is it? You know what, I don't like having to pickup either. That's not a fun part of my day either. But you know what? Sometimes we have to do things that we don't like doing because it's the right thing to do. And so because you didn't pick up your toys today when I asked you to, then we're gonna have to leave the toys in the closet tomorrow and we can't play with them. But we'll be able to take them out the day after that. And so you've set the expectation, I expect you to pick up your toys by the time I get back. They haven't followed through. You empathize with them, you acknowledge their emotions and how they feel about it. Maybe it's not the funnest thing to pick them. But when they still don't follow through then you have unnatural cause-and-effect well the causes you didn't obeying pick up your toys so the effect it or consequences is that now we don't get to play with toys tomorrow i'm so sorry and what you may find is that kids even as you start holding that boundary that they act out even more they don't like that boundary correct But then, if you are consistent... You follow through, you're kind, there's no anger, there is no, you may be angry but there's no acting out in anger as a parent, right? You as the adult are managing your own emotions. You're regulating your own emotion about this, but you're doing it in a very calm, very matter of fact way, acknowledging theirs, validating it, and following through with the consequence. That means the next day when they want to pull out their toys, mm-mm. I'm so sorry you didn't pick them up yesterday and so they have to stay in the closet today. And so that may be, I think one of the drawbacks of gentle parenting that makes it so hard, it's so effective and very healthy, that makes is so hard is the follow through. Because now, if they don't have their toys to play with while I'm trying to make dinner, now what am I gonna do as the parent? How am I going to keep them busy so I can get done what I need to get done? Well, maybe that means maybe they lost the privilege of getting to go to the park on our play day on Tuesdays because you didn't clean your room, now we don't get to go the park. Oh, well then that means now I don't get to the go to park, I don't get the break, I don get to see my mom friends. And so that impacts me as well. And so there's a cost to this kind of parenting where you set clear boundaries and you follow through because it's gonna impact you as well? That you have to do it. You have to have that follow-through or else your child is going to learn and don't worry about it She'll give in and and then you've lost all control. They learn they can run the show. Yeah, but then they don't have the emotional Mental cognitive equipping to run the Show and so what ends up happening when you don't follow through when you Don't set those boundaries and follow through Your children tend to become more anxious and depressed because they feel the insecurity of no boundaries. You know, if you put boundaries around the yard, then they can play healthy because they know how far they can go. They know, I can go to this far as the fence, and this place, I play in this area with no problem. I'm not gonna be yelled at. I'm gonna get consequences. I'm going to get hurt because this is safe. But if there's no boundary and you're just saying go out there and play, ah, well, you know. I don't feel as secure about that because I don't t know how far I can go. I don t know if I take one more step, am I going to get in trouble? And that's very disconcerting for children. They need structure. They long for structure, even though they may not like it at the time.

Chris [00:17:14] You said, yes, that's really good, and what do you say? You said it was hard for you to make the follow through the next day, right?

Alisa [00:17:30] Yeah, it'll have a cost to the parent.

Chris [00:17:33] Yeah, because there's a cost, but what ended up happening, I noticed, with our kids and grandkids and learning from you, it seems like that saved and created an environment that was healthy, fun, safe, with boundaries. For the future, it was a whole lot easier. The first time might be hard, but then the next time I would hear you say Listen, if you don't pick up your toys, we're going to put them away for the next day and like, ooh.

Alisa [00:18:05] Oh, no. Right. They learn that you mean business when you follow through. Yeah.

Chris [00:18:10] Boy, for some of us, Elise, that's hard. I mean, you've landed on this. You do it naturally. What advice would you give to those who say, but it's so hard to see them sad the next day? I mean I guess what you do is you say, well, you know what? Yeah.

Alisa [00:18:28] Yeah, well, you can see that you can, yeah, it is hard. Nobody likes to see their child cry or be sad or frustrated.

Chris [00:18:36] Yeah, they missed their Tuesday play date.

Alisa [00:18:38] Yeah, and that's a bummer. I miss it too. And so I can understand and identify with that emotion with them. But you have to think the long game in parenting. Because if I give in now, short-term to make them feel comfortable, then long-term they are going to lose the ability to navigate and learn how to manage and regulate their own emotions. They are not going to learn how to be accountable. With their chores and expectations, and that's gonna affect them at school, that's going to affect them with their friendships, that's go to affect when they're adults in their job because we all have to meet certain expectations, manage our emotions, and be held accountable for certain societal expectations, right? And so our job as parents is to help them begin to learn that when they are little in these small things. So that it bears fruit in the big things later on, because they will encounter these later on.

Chris [00:19:44] What I really appreciate about that and about your style in that is even as you say things like I know it's hard today, I'm sad too, is even if you said that I felt heard and understood even as your talking about it like oh okay well she's with me, right? And so you also have to be very careful to, not careful, but you have to very clear that yeah this really is bad and I don't like it either. But it does make the kid feel like, all right, this is the limit. You know, at least what you did well is what I was trained to do in working with, you know, emotionally and behaviorally disturbed kids. It's the same concept, right? Many of them pushed boundaries and that's why they had to, you know were sent by the courts to the places that I worked. And we learn that same kind of thing. But what was interesting is these kids always found out who you were. They tested you right away, and they knew who was permissive. They knew who is tough love. They knew he was too authoritarian. And they knew therefore, and they liked, okay, all the kids at the very end. You could see who they kind of admired, valued, and looked up to. It wasn't the permissiveness. The one that would give them anything. There was one of our staff members, she was a counselor female, and she was so permissive, it'd be like, yeah, don't tell anybody, go go ahead and go do this. Or yeah, yeah just go, go, just hide that thing in there. I know he took an extra cert, just, I'm not gonna. Well, they liked her because she was so permisive, but they didn't respect her. Respect her, yeah. And she didn't do well, and she had favorites and everybody knew, okay. The one that was too authoritarian, that wouldn't listen to them, that was just, nope, this is it, black and white, you did it, you're out, boom. You know, they also, they feared that person, but they didn't respect them either.

Alisa [00:21:46] Fear and respect are very different.

Chris [00:21:49] And I learned even with our kids, but especially with that group of a tough kid, one that's harder to, you know, it was the almost softness, you know, with the holding the rules, but recognizing what you just said. This is hard to understand. I know that, you tried hard here. I know it's going to be hard for you to be on red versus Maureen, which was. You can do any, you know, you can go and have fun, you know and take advantage of all the things that these places offered, you go on the field trips, but you're on yellow, watch out, but if you're red, you're restricted. But if you did it the right way, Lisa, like you're talking about, we really found that to be the most effective and the most respected and loved counselors were those that did that.

Alisa [00:22:40] That's really interesting.

Chris [00:22:46] Well, you know, when it comes to money and marriage, we all want clarity and confidence, right? And especially unity with spouses, right. I think Lisa, that's why we get to work personally with Colby Gilmore of Blue Trust.

Alisa [00:23:01] That's right, Colby Gilmore, along with other Blue Trust certified wealth strategists, offers personalized, biblically centered financial planning and investment management services, no matter what your income level is.

Chris [00:23:14] Lisa, say that title twice. Blue Trust Certified Wealth Strategist. That's a tough one. You know, sure I could. I know. So they do put clients' best interests first, and they don't sell financial products. I love that about them.

Alisa [00:23:27] Me too, and you know what? We highly recommend Colby Gilmore and Blue Trust for anyone looking for both financial unity with your spouse and opportunities to increase your wealth and your generosity.

Chris [00:23:39] Yeah, so if you guys want to check out ronblue.com or reach out to Colby Gilmore at colby.gilmore at ron blue.com that's colby dot gilmore at rong blue. Com. I think you guys will be glad you did. So what's the next kind of extreme to be careful of? If you have one, we would call it permissive, right? Yeah, right. That's one. What's another one?

Alisa [00:24:13] Well, that one really goes with gentle parenting, but I tell you what, let's unpack the tough love one.

Chris [00:24:19] First and then we can look. That's the second one right you have permissive versus oh you're talking about tough love the good one. Correct. Yeah let's do that.

Alisa [00:24:27] Yeah, because both of the approaches have some pros and have some cons. And so when we talk about tough love, this is what we're talking about. Tough love emphasizes structure, it emphasizes discipline and recognizing and respecting authority, right? The extreme of it and the con of it is that sometimes it can be overly rigid and authoritarian. Versus authoritative. And so...

Chris [00:25:00] Good difference between authoritative and authoritarian right and are you gonna draw that one out?

Alisa [00:25:05] Yeah, I think it will naturally come in as we talk about it.

Chris [00:25:09] Just to set them up, though, authoritarian is what we would say is, this is my way and it's the right way and it's only way because I said so. I don't care about any excuses. I don't care about, oh, I had this, I did it this way, it doesn't matter. Authoritative is the stronger, same strength, you know, I'm the one in authority, but there's also an ability to reason, talk, listen, and to hear.

Alisa [00:25:39] I love that. Okay. And so when we talk about tough love parenting, it can also involve setting limits and boundaries and expressing certain expectations and then holding the child accountable for those things. And when it's done well, it also involves like what you're talking about with authoritative parenting and tough love. Parenting. Would be that you're also building relationship, listening and understanding. And so taken to the extreme, the extreme would be the harsh, the authoritarian and what you were talking about that you need to clean your room because I said so. As opposed to why do I have to clean my room? Well, you know what, that's a really good question because there's other people in our family that live here. And they don't really like living in a mess either. And so we have to be sensitive to living with other people. Now when is that gonna come to play down the road? Right, when they're in college with a roommate, when they get married perhaps, or they have a roommate outside of college. Other people, the way they keep their area around them impacts other people, and so tough love, the goal is to help them understand that. See the natural outplay of why it's important. Maybe it's your team and doing homework. You know, you come home, like what we did with homework time with our teens in junior high and high school is like, yeah, you can home, it's 3.30, or maybe it's 5.30 or 6.30 if they're doing sports, extracurricular activities. We give them 30 minutes, 45 minutes an hour to really decompress, just relax, have a snack. Take your shoes off and just be for a little while, right? Acknowledging you've had a day too. And then at the end of that hour, that half hour, that hour then it's time to turn the TV off, turn the video games off and you need to start homework. And so after you get homework done, then you can watch TV for another hour. You can play video games for another hour but you need get the homework done. And so in terms of tough love, If your goal is you wanna exercise structure, you wanna put that in place, you want to outline, hey listen, these are the boundaries and these are my expectations is that you'll get your homework done before. And then afterwards you get a reward, that's awesome, you get to do. And if you don't get that homework done, then there's consequences. And maybe that it is tomorrow, no video games tomorrow. Or tomorrow. You've gotta come home, you can't go over to your friend's house that you were planning to. You need to come home. Do your homework, or maybe you come home and do your homework and no additional video games. You know, there's a consequence. And then when tomorrow comes, you follow through. So when it comes to tough love, you're setting structure, you're sending boundaries, you're communicating clear expectations. And let's say that they're like, But mom, you know, um... I just, I really want, my friends are playing this game. I know it's during her homework time, but they have this special thing going on where they're all playing. Could I put my homework off till that? Okay, let's say that, okay, that's not an everyday kind of thing. I can, you know, I can go for that. Go ahead and do that. But at eight o'clock, that's the hard stop. If y'all are still playing, then you have to agree that eight o´clock's the hardest stop and you come and do your homework. And those, you walk in, it's 8.15 and they're still playing. Man, you were supposed to stop at eight o'clock. Man, that's too bad, because now you don't get to go to your friend's house tomorrow. Man, now that's a bummer. Now you don't to play video games tomorrow. And of course, they're, oh, come on, mom. Come on, Mom. Come on dad. But it's like, yeah, I'm sorry. That's a bumper. I would want to do that, too. But I can see why you'd be upset. But that's our role. And then you follow through. And Chris, oh go ahead. That's all. I was thinking about this as we were doing prep for this podcast and really looking at gentle parenting, looking at tough love. And I know there's two really distinct camps out there with you, especially with younger parents right now. It's a big deal. It's big deal and tough love can look, you know, like we talked about, very authoritarian, very overbearing, very harsh, and parents are kind of leaning more towards that gentle parenting. But what I discovered, as I was really unpacking this and doing the research on this, is that when you do gentle parenting well, when you tough love well.

Chris [00:30:36] They look alike, don't they?

Alisa [00:30:37] They look an awful lot alike. There is a lot of crossover, and they are very much more alike than different. The problem comes when you fall to the extremes of being too permissive or being too harsh. And so.

Chris [00:30:56] Well, let's talk about, then, that too harsh, right? I mean, that's the—so you describe the boundaries of permissiveness, right, and the extreme. The extreme of the authoritarian—you know, to become authoritarian would be the extreme, and Lisa, what does that look like? I mean I think it looks like a parent out of control many times, right. Maybe the parents are angry when they... Find at 8 15 they're still playing and they take it out and they smash the game console or they grab it and you'll never play again. I told you and this is it, right? Yeah, you'll NEVER play it, yeah. Yeah, in some ways it's a parent that has allowed this anger to get a hold of them.

Alisa [00:31:47] Oh, you've left your toys in the floor again? Well, I'm just gonna throw them away. We're just throwing them away, we're gonna go give them away to other kids that don't have toys that.

Chris [00:31:56] Appreciate them more than you. And I'll show you who's in charge here. And there's a fine balance, right? Do you think emotion in the parent is one of the major differences between, you know, the authoritative and authoritarian? And what else, right, what else is the difference?

Alisa [00:32:17] Yeah, I think it's the willingness to listen, to understand your child, right? You not only want the behavior, you not only only want them to be obedient, but you, like you said, you want them to feel seen and heard and like they are important. When all you do is shut down their emotions, and you don't listen, you don't take it to account, you don validate it, even if you don agree with it, you need to validate their right to their perspective, even if it's skewed, it doesn't go with yours, but you take the time to listen, to reflect back to them, paraphrase, what I hear you saying honey is when you don get to go with your friends, tomorrow you had a big outing. That that feels really frustrating and really disappointing to you because you were looking forward to being with your friends.

Chris [00:33:18] The role, ready? But I only played 15 extra minutes. It was till 8 15. That just seems too harsh, too mean. What would you say?

Alisa [00:33:27] So, what you're saying is that from your perspective that 15 minutes doesn't sound like it's that big a deal that would warrant such a harsh punishment in your perspective, is that right?

Chris [00:33:39] Yeah, and I only have 10 minutes of homework, which I could do right away.

Alisa [00:33:44] And so what you're saying is that, gee, you only had a little bit of homework, and now you're having to miss this whole thing because of 10 minutes of homework. Is that right? And that doesn't sound like it's, from your perspective, that doesn' sound very fair. No, I think you're an evil witch.

Chris [00:34:02] Oh, yeah, that's what you're...

Alisa [00:34:05] That's a different podcast.

Chris [00:34:05] That was the thought right there. I think you're an evil maw. No, but you're like, yeah, no, I think that's me.

Alisa [00:34:11] Well, let's say you did say that. You're acting like a witch or the viewer because of that. And so you're feeling like I'm just being completely unfair, is that right? And it's like, I can understand that. You know, when I was 15, I probably felt the same way too. I could totally get that. And, or, two key words, and, or. Nevertheless, we had a limit of eight o'clock. We both agreed to that. And you went over. And so we're still going to have to not have that time with your friends tomorrow. And...

Chris [00:34:49] And that presupposes, Lisa, one cool thing as you get ready to finish this, and that is we both agreed to this. And you hold them to it, say, now wait a minute, hold on, do you agree that at eight o'clock you're turning this off, I'll let you play, but it has to be off. Do you agree, if not, there's consequences.

Alisa [00:35:08] And then they learn accountability to holding to their words, sticking to the word. They learn that you're not a pushover and that you hear them, you understand them, and there still is a clear consequence, a natural consequence. And pretty soon, the next time, you can bet when eight o'clock, they agree to eight o clock and eight o o' clock comes around, boom, you know, or maybe it's two or three times, they have to miss their special event. Until they learn that you mean business as a parent and you're following through, but you do it with understanding, a willingness to listen and to empathize and to validate their perspective and you still follow through.

Chris [00:35:52] Well, I'm going to tell all of our listeners right now, do this. If you're me, it's like, oh, man, I wish I could do that. How do you do that? I would say go back and re-listen to what Elisa just said, how she does it. Go back, pause, re-listening to it, and then do it. The outcome is, I'll be honest with you, Drew, Natalie, Caroline, Brinley, Brody, Nolan. You guys have no chance. You're gonna lose, and you're gonna love it. You're going to love her, and you are going to want her to be your mother. And so I apologize to you guys ahead of time. You are way out of your league at growing up as kids.

Alisa [00:36:36] And they have that their own parents are so good. And so they've learned really healthy, good parenting as well.

Chris [00:36:43] No, they are great parents. That's the cool thing, and they're following you, not me. Well, in any way, yeah, I just would say, go talk to your mom, and then don't tell your mom. Those are my two favorite things. Go talk to you mom, and then, don't your mom and then I'd say, you want me to whoop you? And they say, yes, sir. All right, here we go, and that's fine. We got it all set up, and I'll whoop, but you go talk your mom first. But I would say Lisa, just for all of our listeners, listen to the way you do it. It has worked, it's proven. It's psychologically sound, research-wise. It is exactly the way we train our students to go work with not just normal kids, but kids that are on those borders or periphery, right? Emotionally, behaviorally disturbed. And exactly the the way you're doing this. I mean, it's based on, and when you talk about honoring and respect, and we talk about what God has called us to, right, it's also, very biblical in that regard.

Alisa [00:37:45] Yeah, so very much and and so Chris if Let's it. Let's just wrap up here with so water next steps Where where do you start when either you're entering this new? Foray of parenting as As parents you're having kids or young family or maybe you've been at it for a little while a couple of years and things They're not going well

Chris [00:38:09] I already told you, go back and re-listen to this. Second thing, and then you add some. Second thing is, I would go hang around parents that have young children that you know or that you've seen, whether they're a good model or a bad model, go hang with them, go over to their house, ask if you can come over for dinner, ask if, and watch and see, oh, that's interesting, that's effective, that not very effective, what they do, and ask them, how do you do this well? Hey, I'm taking a class on this or hey, we're about to have kids or hey You know we have a little baby and we want to do it Well, what if and and watch for a model if you don't have one at your own home some minters Yeah, what I mean, you don't even have to call the mentors. You're just gonna go take notes and just watch so

Alisa [00:38:57] I love that, and I think also what we want to do is maybe take a step back and just do a self-assessment, maybe do a couple assessment of where do I fall on this line? Where do we fall on that line between permissive, gentle parenting, tough love, being harsh? Where do fall on the line? And you may be different from your spouse, but... You want to just take some time to assess and figure out, do I lean more towards the easy, yeah, being, let's call them love and limits, right? Two different sides of the same coin, love and limit. Do I tend to lean more heavily on the love and the gentleness to where I'm being a little too permissive, or do I lean more toward the tough love and maybe even towards being too harsh? So maybe do that self-assessment. And especially, one way to find out, maybe you feel like, I think, like for me, maybe I fall too much on the tough love side. You know what, I'm gonna ask my kids, and I wanna get their feedback from their perspective, maybe not right in the middle of the conflict because you know what you're gonna get. Not when they're two or three. Right, yeah, not when they are two or there. Let's say you have some elementary school age and up. And you just say, you talk to your child and ask them. Get their opinion. Hey, where do you see, do I fall on this line here? What do you say? Am I too harsh? Am I in the middle pretty good? Am I to easy? What's your perspective? Oh, go ahead. No, you can ask your kids.

Chris [00:40:41] You can talk to mentors, you can talk to each other, you're gonna ask his friend.

Alisa [00:40:46] Yeah, and if you're too tough, then maybe what you want to do is practice listening to understand and validating. Put yourself in your child's shoes and try to see it from their perspective. So I think that's one way to start riding that ship is to practice those things. If you're leaning a little bit too much on the gentle parenting side to where you're maybe letting a couple things slide that you shouldn't, then that's where you start figuring Where can I put in some structure? And some boundaries and then follow through. And then understanding that especially if it's the case of you haven't had boundaries, you've been a little bit too permissive, the kids are starting to run the show, then just be aware of what we call an extinction burst. And that is where you start putting boundaries in place and the child doesn't like it and they react to it. And so expect that that's gonna happen. You start putting a boundary, they're gonna push up against it because they're used to not only pushing it but going past it and not having any repercussions. And so they're going to keep pushing against it to see if they can get past it. And they're not gonna like it and they may act out. But that will last just for a short amount of time until it begins to stabilize because they realize you mean business. And you're following through. And so, those bad habits on either side didn't happen overnight, right? It's like trying to turn an ocean liner, right, versus a speedboat. Well, it didn't happened overnight, so you're not gonna change everything overnight. Give yourself some grace, give your child some grace. A lot of patience, and then praying and asking the Lord. For wisdom and discernment in your parenting, asking the Lord for unity between the two of you, because you have to be on the same page as parents. If not, then you've got two battle fronts and you're gonna lose the war. You've gotta be on this same page, as mayor.

Chris [00:42:56] And being on the same page oftentimes meant that for me, while I may have at the moment disagreed with the limit you had placed, it was not the moment or time to disagree with you in front of the kids, say, no, Lisa, you're too this, you need, no don't do it that way, add this into it. And so be unified in that front or you're really going to be divided.

Alisa [00:43:21] And if you don't agree, what you're saying is don't disagree and undermine the stronger parent in front of the child. You have that conversation behind closed doors when you're not in the middle of it. And maybe you need to call a time out with your kid in the midst of the conflict and say, you know what, time out, let's press your pause button. Dad and I need to have a conversation and we're going to be back, we'll be back here in just a couple of minutes.

Chris [00:43:49] Yeah, we did. One time we called a timeout. So we're going to be back in a couple of years, you guys. And so that timeout was awesome. I remember that. That was like a two year timeout is beautiful.

Alisa [00:44:00] Boy, that can be the temptation, though, because you want to avoid conflict. And I don't like conflict. So anyway, so really just put some of these steps in place. Expect that it's not gonna happen overnight, but with clarity of your boundaries, your expectations, listening to understand, validate, follow through. And build that relationship outside of these things with your child because when you try to exert this kind of interaction with your child without having a good relationship in place, it's gonna lead to rebellion and bitterness. So build that relationships, have fun, listen to understand, follow through.

Chris [00:44:50] Yeah, and just one shout out to those that are kind of the avoiders or the authoritarian, not always the men, but in many cases it's easy for one to go, I'm just going to leave them alone. I'll let her do all of this. I will let them take care of this, I am just going come in, I just want peace in Leave me out of this I'm going to call you out. Man, it's time to step up, get involved, know your spouse, but also know your kids and be involved in their lives.

Alisa [00:45:22] No good cop, bad cop.

Chris [00:45:24] Now it's a time to be unified. It's one cop and a very strong one at that, so. Lisa, thanks, man. You have great insights on these. I think it's keep planning back. Thank you for sharing all these great ways of doing and the practical ways of do parenting well. Yeah.

Alisa [00:45:42] And you know, a couple of really good resources I wanna throw out there before we get done here today. Number one is, it's called The Art of Parenting. It's an online, I think it's a six week online series that's put out by Family Life called The art of Parent. You can do it either in the privacy of your own home, you could gather some other parents together with you and do a small group study. On parenting for six weeks. You could do it in a Sunday school class or at church. Excellent research.

Chris [00:46:16] Yeah, we call out family life is awesome.

Alisa [00:46:18] Yeah, excellent resource. Another really great book is Boundaries with Kids by John Townsend. Yeah, Henry Cloud and John Townson. Excellent book. They have boundaries with kids and boundaries with teens. Excellent resource. But thanks for joining us today. We loved having you with us here. We know that you have a number of things that you could be doing today besides hopping on to this podcast, so. You know, good for you for investing in your family, your relationships, your parenting, and we're really glad that you joined us today. Thanks.

Chris [00:46:54] Yep, thank you guys.

Alisa [00:46:55] See you next time.

Mandy [00:46:59] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.