In this episode, we explore how couples can build habits that make marriage easier—and even more joyful—for the long haul. Guest Arlene Pellicane, author, speaker, and host of The Happy Home Podcast, joins Alisa to share insights from her new book Making Marriage Easier: How to Love and Like Your Spouse for Life. Together, they unpack biblical wisdom, research-based habits, and personal stories from Arlene’s 26 years of marriage.

They discuss common misconceptions about marriage, the power of gratitude and hope, and the four key habits that strengthen every relationship. Arlene and Alisa also dive into handling grief and loss, how couples can reconnect through simple moments of fun, and the impact of technology on intimacy and attention.

Resources Mentioned:

• Making Marriage Easier: How to Love and Like Your Spouse for Life – Arlene’s newest book filled with humor, biblical insight, and practical tools for a lasting marriage. 👉 https://www.amazon.com/Making-Marriage-Easier-Love-Spouse-ebook/dp/B0D99XK3R4
• The Happy Home Podcast – Arlene’s show helping families grow closer and live with joy. 👉 www.accessmore.com/pd/https/arlenepellicanecom/podcasts/
• Going Deeper Together: Spiritual Armor Required – A five-lesson online course by Chris and Alisa Grace equipping couples to recognize the enemy’s tactics and stand strong together. 👉 http://t.ly/iTL9
• How to Ask Better Questions – A free downloadable handout to help you become a better listener and question asker in marriage, friendships, and family life. 👉 https://assets.biola.edu/4396738754672012438/attachment/e06213efc42d52c08cca652e4ed63668/250620_-_CMR_-_Guides_and_Tip_Sheets_Ask_Better_Questions.pdf
• Follow Arlene:
  • Instagram: www.instagram.com/arlenepellicane/
  • Facebook: www.facebook.com/ArlenePellicaneAuthor/
  • Website: arlenepellicane.com/

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: www.youtube.com/@biola-cmr

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

Alisa [00:00:00] So can marriage actually be easier and maybe even enjoyable for the long haul? Well, that might defy conventional wisdom, I know, but today I'm talking with author, speaker, and Happy Home podcast host Arlene Pelicane, and she has her latest book, Making Marriage Easier. So it's based on over 25 years of marriage, and Arlene shares biblical wisdom and real life stories to encourage couples to rediscover their joy and connection and even playfulness in their marriage. So from communication struggles to parenting stress, intimacy challenges to distractions, Arlene offers practical roadmap toward a stronger, more joy-filled relationship. She's our special guest today. And so I wanna invite you to stick around for our latest episode of the Art of Relationships podcast.

Mandy [00:00:53] Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships Let's get right into it.

Alisa [00:01:04] Well, welcome to another episode of the Art of Relationships podcast. We are so glad you joined us today because really you could be doing anything today, anything else besides sitting here watching and listening to this podcast. So we are super excited that you've joined us today and I love our guests today. This is my good friend, Arlene Pelican. We go back many, many decades, don't we? A lot, a lot longer than any of us would really want to.

Arlene [00:01:31] That's right.

Alisa [00:01:34] So Arlene is a Biola graduate, and she has her own marriage and parenting ministry. She's the host of the Happy Home podcast. And she has several books that she's written. A couple of those are right here, Parents Rising, great book on parenting right there. Screen Kids, which is an awesome book. I highly recommend on helping your kids navigate technology, social media, phones, all of that kind of stuff. So good, and then you have your latest book called Marriage Made Easier, or Making Marriage Easier. Excuse me, Making Marriage Easyer, How to Love and Like Your Spouse. I love that title, I love the title, Arlene, because you kind of made a subtle differentiation, maybe not so subtle, between love, the love you have for your spouse and the fact that you actually like them.

Speaker 4 [00:02:30] That's right. Most of us would say, oh, I love my spouse, but we have the Wilson. I don't like him right now. I love him. That's kind of what we're writing to is yes, we are. We love each other. We're committed, but are there ways that we can grow in like with each other? And if we can do that, it does make marriage easier.

Alisa [00:02:49] So tell us some stories about James when you really didn't like him. No, not really.

Speaker 4 [00:02:55] No, we got this. You want to do it now? I know. I think we've all got those. It's kind of a little bit.

Alisa [00:02:59] Like, where do you start? Now you have those on me. Yes, that's what it always is. I was going to say, you always both have those. I know. If we don't want them telling on us, we're not going to tell on them either. So I'd love to always start back at the very beginning and really get the back story of why you wanted to write this book in the first place. What was it that kind of sparked that interest in that desire for you?

Speaker 4 [00:03:22] You know, it's really years ago at Biola, you know, I would be praying like, Lord Jesus, please give me a husband, right? And then the Lord does. And it's been great. Like we had 25 years now, we're 26 years. It's been wonderful. And I thought to myself, OK, wait, we are not superheroes. We're not so super spiritual. We're really quite different. What has made this not awful? Because so many people around me, right, are either saying like my husband does nothing, my wife. Doesn't, you know, like me anymore, whatever it is, and you hear this over and over again, you see the graying of divorce, you see people when they're empty nesters then leaving their spouse, and I'm thinking, what is it about our marriage that has made it easier? Because it really hasn't been this, oh, every year's a struggle. Oh my goodness, this man's just driving me nuts, you know? So what was it? So it kind of made me think, okay, let's tell our story to give hope that it's not that it is easy, because it's a commitment and supposed to be hard, and it's the hard that makes it great. But why do we keep like doing things that sabotage our relationship? Isn't there a way to make it easier? So we just kind of went back and looked at what were the main things that helped us, and then I wanted to put that in the book. And James is a very funny person. He's like, he's a free spirit, I'm a rules keeper, so he's always bringing us places I would never dare to go, you know, that kind of thing? So there's a lot of funny stories that people will be able to relate to in the books.

Alisa [00:04:49] Oh, that's awesome. So what would you say as you look back over those 26 years and you think about, gosh, that you encounter thousands of people, you're speaking all over the country, tons of events that you do as you travel, what would say are some of the biggest misconceptions that people have about marriage?

Arlene [00:05:12] Too self-centered because we're so used to everything being about us like our phone tells us everything's about us it's curated for me so then we approach marriage like marriage should be curated for me like my spouse should do all these things that I want him or her to do so I think that viewpoint it just lends itself to disappointment because how is this person going to live their life completely curated to you another huge misconception is with young people. Is just thinking, oh, I'm not able to marry because that just seems too hard. And I will even say, when I was a student here at Biola, I was in Chris Grace's, Dr. Grace's Intro to Psychology class. And I remember as an 18 year old thinking, well, he makes marriage look fun whenever he talks about his wife and he does. He's a lot of fun. Whenever he would talk about you, it was like so endearing. And everyone was like, we wanna be married like Dr. Grease. And I think that's what people need. They need hopeful examples, examples. And I that's why we're seeing that they don't have that. Instead, people are being told, you should be independent. You should get your degree. You should have a lot of money so you can go live that good life and don't let anyone depend on you. Don't have a spouse, don't a have a child. And I I think, that's the huge disservice, the misconception people have about marriage. Like statistically, if you're. They asked in the general survey, is your life enjoyable most or all of the time? And the people who answered it the best were married with kids. So the people married with kid, they said 47% of them said yes. Married, no kids, 43% of the them. Unmarried with kids, 40%. And unmarried, no kids 34%. So the younger generation is told, don't get married, you know, that's gonna bog you down. Don't have children, they're like little leeches, right? But they're 34% kind of, you know enjoy life. But look at this huge bump of 47%. And whoa, these are the married people with kids. So I think for young people, they need to know, you've been sold a bill of goods that marriage will make your life a lot richer than poor. And I think that's a big misconception that I'm seeing.

Alisa [00:07:33] I completely agree. We teach a class in the spring called Christian Perspectives on Marriage and Relationships. We have every spring this class with over, I don't know, around 120 students or so. I'm always really taken aback how jaded and cynical many of our Christian students can be about marriage. They've seen some struggles in their parents and some of the people around them. And so they get very disheartened that I'm due to fail. It's not gonna be good. And then on the flip side, sometimes we have some students, they're like, wow, my parents, they did it well. They did it so good. And so we encourage them, it can be good and I love that idea of giving them hope. But just because your parents did it right and did it well doesn't mean that you can rest on your laurels. You've got to put in the commitment and the work and that day-to-day relationship with the Lord that I see you and James do. And I see that played out in your own family and in my own family to see the difference that that makes. Yeah, for sure. Wow, that gives us hope. I love that. And just I think the power of hope. Talk about that, just that idea of the power of hope. What does that do for somebody that might be married and maybe it's not the best time right now?

Arlene [00:09:02] It's such a huge mindset to have. You know, I end my podcast, the Happy Home podcast with this line, if you don't have to come from a happy home to create one, you too can have a happy house. That regardless of where you start, whether at the very top or at the bottom, it doesn't matter, you can create through habits, through your attitude, through relationship with God. Obviously, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. To have that hope, I think of the movie Rogue One. And I think of, you know, they give Princess Leia at the end of the movie, the plans, and someone asks her, what is that? And she says, hope. But you know what, it's like the plans of a Death Star. So it's just this whole idea that if you have that spark of hope, that wait a minute, this can be good for me. Marriage can be for me, good for, you now, maybe we started, had a rocky start, but we're gonna get better, whatever, wherever you are, single, married, divorced, happy marriage, sad marriage, wherever you're, if you hope. That lets you know you can wake up and try again. But if you don't have hope, it's like, okay, I'm just gonna like eat ice cream and watch Netflix, because I have no hope. So hope is really important.

Alisa [00:10:08] I think so too.

Arlene [00:10:09] And you said something that.

Alisa [00:10:10] You used a word just now as you were talking. You talked about the word habits. You said that doesn't just happen, that you're being really intentional in establishing some really solid habits as a couple. And in your book, Making Marriage Easier, you talked about four really key habits that you and James established that really went a long way to making your marriage work for you guys.

Arlene [00:10:38] So can you talk a little bit about some of those hung on to that word habit because it's like we get all these good intentions We can journal about things like all those things are good, but the habits it's actually really ringing it Yes, the things you do on repeat So the four key decisions the key habits that we had that really helped us Decision number one play by the rules. So there are certain rules of marriage There are some rules that we all have right and then the some rules. That will be special from couple to couple but make those a habit. We can dig into that. The second one is to give thanks every day, to have the habit of thanksgiving, that it's something spoken, it's something thought, it something expressed and felt thanksgiving. The third one is serve your spouse, is make it a habit of doing nice things. Of being considerate to the other person. When you're dating, it's super easy. You're like, you wanna go there? Oh, I wanna go to there too. You wanna go the extra mile. I wanna do it too. So how can we keep that up? And then the last one is the habit of fun, is to take fun seriously. That you have tons of fun when you're dating in probably the first few years of marriage, but then it turns into bills and to do's and whatever you need to run around the kids and being limo service and. It cannot devolve into, wow, this is just a hard business. You have to keep having fun, so the habit of fun.

Alisa [00:12:02] That's, I love that one too, I loved that one, too. One that I think really stands out to me that you just mentioned was the issue of gratitude and thanksgiving. The power, we do a lot of research and teaching on that particular area of relationships, how it's so key that oftentimes people will misunderstand, they think that you have to be happy first. And then you'll be grateful. But actually research shows that it's the other way around, that those that cultivate a sense of gratitude and look for the things, identify the things in your life that they can be grateful for, grateful in their spouse, grateful about their relationship, their marriage, their home, their kids, that those are the people that are the happiest. I find that fascinating that we get that. We got it mixed up. Yeah, there's an author, his name is, I want to say William Arthur Ward, an author William Arthur Ward. That'll get me mixed up. But he makes an interesting distinction about not only between gratitude, but you said something about expressing gratitude. He says feeling gratitude and not expressing it is like having a gift wrapped but you don't give it to the person. Can you talk a little bit more about the power of gratitude and thanksgiving and your own marriage and what you've seen?

Arlene [00:13:40] I have seen it make all the difference in the world because you're trying to recapture that Thanksgiving of its appreciation, appreciating your spouse, appreciates that God brought you into, brought them into your life, appreciated the service that they give you, you know, that they do nice things for you, appreciate that they're there. You know, you talk to any widow or widower and they will tell you, if you've got a living, breathing spouse, you should be saying thank you a lot more than you are. So with that, when you're looking with the lens of gratitude, all of a sudden, you're so much more pleasant to be with, right, but if you're look through the lens of, well, you, last year, you used to do this for me, and you don't do that anymore, or her husband, he, like, buys her stuff and takes her places. You don't that, like who wants to be around that? Like, think of your least grateful friend that complains a lot, that's always finding what's wrong, like, how many times do you want to have lunch with him or her, right? It's like. You don't want to be with this person. So to realize, wait a minute, am I being grateful to my spouse so that A, my heart can be full, and then B, this is how you can like a person by being likable first. Like a lot of times we think, why are you being so difficult instead of thinking, well, am I acting in a likable manner? Right, because we obviously used to be that way when we were dating. And I even think recently, you know, when you look at the 10 Commandments, He's saying, what does that have to do with gratitude? Thou shalt not this, thou shalt this. Well, you look at it and it starts, I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. So if you had someone, a God, our God, save you, what would your response be? Like, I hope it would be gratitude. Like, thank you, you brought me out of slavery. You brought me outta the house a bondage, so he is calling on us to be grateful. And out of that gratitude, look who I am, I'm the God who saved you, I'm grateful. So, don't have idols, only have me as your God, respect my name, keep it holy. And it comes out of this place of gratitude, that a response of gratitude. And I think the same is in marriage, that Lord, I can give so much more to this marriage if I'm coming from this place of gratitude towards I'm Grateful. Right now, you know, this sounds nice. It's like, you a nice theory. I always want to be thankful, but maybe you're thinking, I cannot think of a thing this week that I am thankful for, for my spouse. And so sometimes it just takes the retraining of the mind to get a little journal, piece of paper on your phone, however you want to do it, and just force yourself if you're finding that this is hard to think of one thing today you're thankful for for your spouse. And it might just be like, pay one to work. Great, there are a lot of men who don't go to work but just sit around at home and you know, so great. Whatever you can do, you just are, and then what you'll find is as that muscle, because it's a muscle, as you start using it, it'll become easier. Be like, oh, now it's like as if my eyes were open because you're looking for it. You're training your mind to notice. Look for the things you're grateful for. And then say them, like we're talking about, thank you for going to work today. I know it's not always easy to go into the office and I'm really grateful that you're. So faithful to take care of our family. And maybe your husband will be like, wait, what? Usually you have other words for me at the end of the day. So start with that Thanksgiving. I remember years ago, James, it was the week before Thanksgiving, and he had written down for a week like things he was grateful for. So he showed it to me on a piece of paper. It said, Monday, you are really cheerful when the kids come home from school. Tuesday. Is that true, Lucy? Her daughter Lucy is right here in this free. It'd be Tuesday, like, I like the meal that you made for us. And then he wrote it down and he gave it to me. And I tell you what, as a words of affirmation, love language person, I was like, oh my goodness, you took the time to tell me and say these words to me? So it doesn't have to cost money. It doesn't to take a lot of time. But that you are actually looking for ways to be grateful and expressing them, that goes a long way in marriage.

Alisa [00:17:47] Yeah, you know, one thing that I notice, or that I've heard some people say, is when we're talking about the issue of gratitude and looking for those small everyday things to be grateful for, like, oh, you made a really great dinner tonight, or, you now, thank you for going to work. Some people would say, well, isn't that kind of a low bar? They should be doing that anyway. Why am I thanking them for doing things that they should be doing already? What would you say to that person?

Arlene [00:18:17] I would say, like, turn it around to you, right? So let's say you just said that, but let's say your spouse said to you you have been very nice today. Thank you for, you know, always just putting out all your best foot forward, you don't want to. Oh, thank you. I noticed you were so nice to your friend. You're just a kind person. I mean, you could think to yourself, well, what a low bar. Shouldn't I be nice to my friend? Shouldn't always look nice? It's like, no, that's actually nice that someone noticed and said thank you So sure, there is a point that, yeah, these things should be expected, right? So yet these are not out of the ordinary things, they should be expected, but on the other hand, shouldn't they also be appreciated? We shouldn't take them for granted.

Alisa [00:18:58] Have to take them for granted. That's right. I love Amy Gordon is a psychologist and she says that when it comes to expressing gratitude like this that is so important that it's when you're thinking about your spouse, your husband, your wife, you're not only grateful that they took the trash out, right? That's okay, that's the low bar we could say. Yeah, you should take the But it's more sometimes that your spouse knows you hate to take out the trash. And so that's why they do it. That occupies that really big part of your heart, right? He knows, I hate to kill the spiders. And so he does it for me. And so I say, thank you. I wanna take that for granted. I hate filling my car up with gas and he'll take it on the weekends and fill it up for me so I have it out. But then I like to turn that around and then think, okay, what? I love to receive, I love to have all those things done for me. So what am I doing for him to make his life easy?

Arlene [00:20:06] Yeah, and that turnaround is so important. And on your last point, you know, it reminded me of a wonderful, wonderful wife. And she says to me, I'm just so sad because my husband doesn't appreciate me. Like I make the dinner and he doesn't say thank you. And if you would just say thank, it would just mean so much to me. And it's that same question you asked before, well, shouldn't she be expected to make dinner? You know, like, isn't that the okay thing to do? Like, why does he have to say thank? Is the bar so low? You have to thank you? And I think all of us have to realize like, no, we want, it says, I see you, I value you, you know, I thank you. So I think thanking people for that low thing they do, I think that should come back. I think.

Alisa [00:20:47] Really nice thing. I think so too and you know Dr. John Gottman leading marital researcher in the country he says it's those very small everyday ordinary acts of kindness yeah and thoughtfulness that can often time occupy the biggest part of your spouse's heart. So the fact that you know you took a dog to the groomer yeah you know gosh that that you know it didn't move heaven and earth but you know what that's something you took off my plate yeah that's something you knew i didn't have time to do and even if i did you did it anyway and we can all find things that we can be appreciative and say thank you for yeah gosh that yeah learn that in kindergarten right yes some of us better than others So there was another thing that I wanted to ask you about that you were talking about. I loved what you said about that we should take fun seriously. Why is having fun in your marriage and intentionally building that in, why is that so powerful? Why did you add that?

Arlene [00:21:53] It's because like think of what brought you together right like when you were dating so think about dear listener when you're dating and just put that montage in your mind you know what are you doing you are having fun like basically the entire time you're having fun and if you're not having any fun then there was something wrong in your courtship yeah but you know you're you're going to the grocery store but you're together and you're having fun and you I remember my husband James you know I didn't understand this but he'd be like, oh, let's restore this chair. And we'd like. Take a chair and like sand it and paint it. And I, at least I thought that was fun because we were together. And I thought this is so cute. Like in the movies where they restore things together. And of course now I realize, oh my goodness, I should have seen then I'm gonna have to restore a lot of furniture. Like this is not gonna be good. And he's thinking, this is the girl for me. She restores furniture. This is awesome. So all that courtship, all that dating, you are making life fun. Sometimes it's really a fun activity because you're going to sports and that's so fun. You're going the concerts. You're gonna nice dinners. You're taking romantic walks. And it truly is by definition fun. You're not doing those things in everyday life. You're now going out to long dinners and baseball games and concerts every weekend. You know what I mean? But when you're dating, this is how you're spending your time. But. All the other stuff was fun too. Going to church was fun. You sit in the car together, going to ice cream was fun, getting dinner together was, it was all fun. And so we have to be able to bring that back and a lot of it is just the attitude of fun, the attitude playfulness and you do have to work at it. That's why I said to take fun seriously. We took these videos when James and I were dating because I had it in my mind, like I think I'm gonna marry this man. I had it in my mind when we were dating. And I thought, wouldn't it be so cute if we like had video of us like so I would take the huge camcorder, the big camcoder, right, with us and I'd set it on a table and point it toward us. And I'd say to James, okay, I'd snuggle up real close to him, I say, what did we do today, sweetie? It was so cheesy. It was awful. And he'd tell us we did. And we both had that weird glow, like just looking at each other all sappy and everything. So I have these videos and I'm watching myself like, who is she, right? Like, she's so silly and she's fun and she so silly. And I'm not all goopy like that with my husband now. But when I watch that, I realize, you know what? I should be a little bit more playful. Like when we're at dinner, I should a little more giggly and I should grab his hand and I be like, oh, let's go see what that is, you know, instead of just walking past something. So I think that attitude of fun, it keeps us through the decades and close together. It gives us that I can hardly wait. You know, when you think to yourself, well, I can't hardly wait for, and we have like a calendar event or something, wouldn't it be nice if that was something we were doing with our spouse? You know sometimes it's like, I can barely wait till we do that girlfriend trip, or I can only wait until my college girl comes home, and all of these things are fine. But those I can hardly wait also have to be with our, I think maybe even mostly, with your spouse because everybody else is gonna leave, but your spouse is the one who's gonna be there. So that idea of fun is really important and put an I can't hardly wait with your spouse in there.

Chris [00:25:22] Vera felt that sometimes in marriage, like, everything starts to pull you apart, and it's just not a coincidence, right?

Alisa [00:25:29] Yeah, the Bible reminds us that we have a very real enemy. It's been trying to divide couples since the Garden of Eden.

Chris [00:25:37] At least I think it's why and one of the things that led us to creating the Going Deeper Together Spiritual Armor Required. It's a five lesson course that equips couples to recognize the enemy's tactics and help you stand strong together.

Alisa [00:25:51] And you'll discover the number one way the enemy gains an advantage and how to counter it with really practical biblical

Speaker 6 [00:25:59] Man, isn't it truly, since your spouse isn't the enemy is the enemy that's the enemy.

Alisa [00:26:06] And if you want to protect and strengthen your marriage, this course is for you. So you'll find all the details in the show notes, so check it out. So you're talking about the importance of building that fun and thinking back when we were dating, because didn't we all really put a lot of effort and thought into what would be fun? I wanna make this special. I wanna look nice for him. I want to make this especially for her. She's gonna love this. Think of something that would be really unique that each other would just really love. And it was part of having that heart, don't you think of? Pursuing, continuing to want to woo the other person because you want them to fall in love with you. You want them like you and fall in love with, right? And I think part of what your book does is really encouraging us not to lose that perspective of pursuing and wooing each other. When we get caught up in the day-to-day. Just day-to-day life, the busyness of work, of being sick, of having sick kids, of having projects due, of financial stress. Maybe you're taking care of in-laws that are needing more and more help. And so those kind of fun times can really get lost and be sacrificed on the pedestal of the urgent and the important, the urgent. Yes.

Arlene [00:27:42] Yeah, and just to realize, like, wait a minute, well, I planned that little fun weekend getaway maybe once a year. That's not frivolous. Like, that's okay, like you should do that. That's gonna help you. So just make it as legitimate as all the other things that you have to do.

Alisa [00:27:57] That's wonderful. It really builds up that wellspring of goodwill and that love bank, right? That Gary Chapman always talks about pouring and investing into that love Bank so that when those hard times come, when those challenges come, and you're making sometimes some pretty consistent withdrawals in really rough seasons of life. And sometimes those rough seasons can be extended. It's not just. Maybe a month or two or a week or two, but it might be extended into years. Maybe you're in a season of life, kind of like where we are after Chris's cancer battle that now we have new levels of normal, a new normal for us and day-to-day challenges that we didn't used to have. And so for us to really create times to continue to invest. To woo each other, pursue each other. Think about what would he like? What would that be like for you? Oh, let's go, you know, and plan something special. Maybe it's a weekend away that we both really need. And it takes time when you're really busy, it takes money, and maybe you have to set aside little by little to create these little fun times. But they don't always have to cost. What would be, just off the top of your head, what would be some examples of? Creating fun experiences in a marriage. If maybe you just don't have a lot of time and you don't a lot a money.

Arlene [00:29:29] You know what's a super easy way? It's just the five to 30 second daily kiss doesn't cost anything and it just puts the fun back in. So when I interviewed, I interviewed your husband for one of my books, 31 Days to a Happy Husband. And I also interviewed Dr. Cliff and Joyce Penner. And that's the tip they gave us was the five to 30 seconds kiss that keeps the pilot light lit, keeps things playful. And when things are stressful. And believe me, as I'm talking to you and as you're listening, don't think that James and I have any of this stuff perfect, right? It's like these are things that we have to work on that say like, okay, we've fallen out of this. We don't do the 30 second kiss, the five second kiss. We gotta get back to that. So that's something so small that could bring fun back into the marriage. I had a pastor and he talked about how him and his wife. This is a big thing, okay? I'll get around to your answer. But for like their 50th anniversary, he did this elaborate plan. He was already speaking in Europe and he decided, while we're already in Europe, I will take my wife of 50 years to the Eiffel Tower. We will sit on top of the Eifel Tower and we will enjoy with my Silver Fox this moment. And I said, well, do you have anything cheaper, pastor, than that? And He said, you know, on my... I always call all my grandchildren on their birthdays and my granddaughter will always say I never have to set my alarm clock on my birthday because I know grandpa you'll always call me.

Arlene [00:30:59] Any

Arlene [00:31:00] And he told me that these moments of connection, of fun, of spark, they don't have to cost money. They just take thought. So it is really just thinking, what would my spouse think is fun? Like, whether it be like a little prank, like you like switch a picture, like it's a picture of you and you put a picture of, you know, like, I don't know, like your mother-in-law, I dunno, something that you think would make your spouse laugh. So just whether it's something small.

Arlene [00:31:27] Mm-hmm.

Arlene [00:31:28] Or as you bring like a little, like sometimes James will bring me a coffee from McDonald's and that won't like mean so much to me because he hardly ever does it, you know what I mean? Then you think, he brought me a coffe from McDonalds, you know, and it's like little things that could be very fun. And it doesn't have to take a lot of time. It doesn't to take lot of money.

Alisa [00:31:46] I like that cultivating maybe like inside Joe.

Arlene [00:31:49] Inside jokes and you know what, like for instance, and like whatever it is you have to do, like to try to make something fun. So for instance I like to go thrift store shopping and my husband does too because we love like deals. So we love looking for the deal. So I'm looking let's say for clothes, he's looking for like exercise equipment, et cetera. But he did this new thing where he would dress up in the thrift shop. He put on like a flannel shirt and like a wig and like hat. And he would shop next to me, and I would think like, eww, who is this creepy man? And he'd try to get as close as possible to me. And I honestly did not know it was him the first time he did it. And I was just like, oh my word, who is this crazy man following me? Yeah, I was like, who's this creepy person? And then as he got closer, I realized, oh my lord, it's my husband. So then it's our thing, that when we go to the thrift store, like, they will, like him and now even my son, because my poor son, if he's like, I don't wanna be here, but my family's here, so they will go and dress up. Oh, my God. And outfits. And it's really funny. So we take like the really just kind of normal, boring things in life. And what can you do to make them more fun? Yeah, it doesn't take much time. And obviously, I get it. Like, your personality might be like, there is no way on earth I would ever do that. But there's something else. There's something to be funny. Yes.

Alisa [00:33:06] Uh-huh, so fun. Okay, now that made me think of something else that you were talking about. We were talking about seasons of marriage, season of life. You're building in those four habits that you just mentioned. But inevitably, well, Gary Thomas wrote a book called Your Marriage of Fortress. And his thought behind that is it's not a matter of if. But when hard times come that you're gonna face them. Everybody does, nobody goes through life unscathed. Some are more scathed than others, but everybody experiences something at some point. And so I know you and James really experienced a heartache in the loss of a child. Would you mind sharing just a little bit about how did that impact your marriage? How did you guys process that? And deal with that.

Arlene [00:34:05] Children can be like a great joy in marriage a great grief in marriage and so we

Alisa [00:34:11] times in the same 10 minutes.

Arlene [00:34:13] Exactly!

Alisa [00:34:15] If you have a two-year-old, you know what I'm talking about.

Arlene [00:34:17] About. True. And we had we had trouble having kids when neither of us had infertility in our background. So that didn't get us by surprise. Like when we're sitting in this fertility seminar we're thinking like what in the world are we doing here? We didn't think this would be our issue. And then we discovered I had fibroids and they were making it so that I was not able to get pregnant so I had surgery to get that removed and once that was removed we were able to have our first and we were so excited like oh my goodness like we have waited for this child. We've had this chat, like we're so excited. So it's Ethan, our first born. And then we were pregnant again. So we were just doubly excited because you kind of feel like if you've been struggling with infertility, if you just get one, you just think like, wow, like gold, right? We got it, right. And then to be pregnant again was like, oh my goodness, we're gonna have another one that's even more amazing. So it was the day before Thanksgiving. My parents live in town. His parents were out of town, but they were with us for Thanksgiving. So us and both sets of in-laws, both sets parents, were all in the ultrasound office and the person was very quiet and did the ultrasound and we're like, we're kind of joking. Like, boy, she's really grumpy. She should get another job. Like we were kind of all very jovial and she was very matter of fact. And she told us, you're having a girl and she just folded everything up and dismissed us. And we're, like, okay. And then later that day, my doctor called and she said, the radiologist isn't allowed to say anything, but that you have like some serious problems with your baby and we'd like you to go see a specialist so that you can know more going into, even going into the Thanksgiving weekend. So we want you to right now to the specialist. So we're at the specialist and basically they told us your baby has a lot of genetic defects, a lot swelling everywhere, and most likely the baby's heart's gonna stop beating. So this was maybe at about the 16 week checkup point. And so that morning I had read, trust in the Lord with all your heart, right? Proverbs three. And very much knew the Holy Spirit had told me that morning, like you will need this today and you need to remember this today. So that season of getting the bad news. And then the day after like being in church is Thanksgiving and you're pregnant and everyone's like, oh, we're so excited I was touching your belly and all these things that you cannot explain to every single person that comes up to you Like I think my baby is going to die So What really helped us was I think in marriage you have to decide like is the struggle going to unite us or divide us So it's like is this gonna unite us or is it gonna divide us? And I think for us to make that decision when we're even at the front of it and then make the decision like, this is gonna bring us together, we're gonna grieve differently, we're going to think about this differently, but we're go do it together. And so we just kept praying and just asking God, like God, take this baby away, heal this baby. Or give us a baby with special needs and give us the grace to do it. And week after week, Elise said that little baby was still there. So we'd go for the appointment, heart's still beating. Go for the apartment, heart still beating, we made it all the way through Christmas. So we had got that news at Thanksgiving and they told us she's gonna die at any time, just be ready. And then we made all the to Christmas and I thought, wow, maybe like God's gonna do, like who knows, right? And then between Christmas and New Year's. Is when we found out like, okay, her heart stopped beating. And so we knew, okay it's over. And I think when you know Jesus, that's the gospel changes everything. Cause then you know, like, I think God can handle, obviously you can handle the fist, like, God, why did you let me be pregnant? And then why did I not get a baby? Like, that's okay, like cry out to God. Why did this not happen? And then in time though, you realize like, okay, Lord, I can surrender. I can Surrender. And Lord. The Lord gives, it was that passage in Job, right? The Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord. And that through grief, if both the husband and wife can get to the point of the lord gives and the lord takes away, blessed be the name of a lord, that is when all this can work together. So we, I will tell you two more parts. One, when I had to deliver that baby, right, still-born baby, I had go deliver the baby. So I was very much like, oh my goodness, this is awful. Like you have to go through like this, they induce you and all these stages, like you already know no one is there, like it's terrible. But the Lord had me go into labor by myself. So it made it faster actually. So that was, I felt like his grace. And when I was at that hospital, I live in San Diego, big, big big hospital just for women. The nurse that came in was the exact same nurse that delivered our first child.

Arlene [00:39:22] Her name

Arlene [00:39:22] Her name was Megan and we had kept in touch through email. And so when she walked in, I knew God saw me. I knew Megan came in and she was like, oh my word, I'm so sorry that it's you. I'm sorry that this happened to you. And to me it said, oh my goodness, God knows my name, God sent me Megan and everything's gonna be okay. And we had a little memorial service for that baby. We named her Angel Rose. And then a year later, we had another baby. And her name is Noelle and she's in college now and so the Lord through our grief gave us a joy that carried us gave us that hope of you know even if we didn't were able to have a baby like we had Ethan and you know and you you understand like like we were I was very glad in that season that we had ethan but the Lord blessed us with two healthy girls after that point and he gave us three children on earth, you know, and... So during that time, I think it's important to unify, give space. So if the one greets faster than the other to give the other one more time. And then the community, like have people pray for you. Don't be like, I'm just gonna do this alone. Like I would go forward every week. Like they always have the elders at the church up front and they're there to pray for. So go do it. So every week I go up and I'd say please pray for me and they would pray for me and I really think that made a big difference. So have people pray for you.

Alisa [00:41:02] And I think there's something to what you did, Arlene, that especially as a believer, I think we can be prone to, oh, yes, this really bad thing happened, but praise the Lord, you know, God is good. And you just kind of spiritually bypass something really hard and kind of ignore it and stuff it. Out and I've got to put on a really strong faith, you know, face, face of faith. Oh, she's so strong, she has so much faith. Wow, your faith, and I really admire your faith. I think Chris and I processed that experience, I think, when we went through his cancer diagnosis is six years ago this month, stage three colorectal cancer, and yeah, it was a long. Year, a long year of really brutal chemo treatment, radiation, multiple surgeries. I mean he's left with some disabilities that is now our new normal. But there were days that it's like I just don't want to get out of bed today, Lord. It's just you know that was just one of many things we were dealing with and it happened during the pandemic. Had a pandemic, our daughter was going through some really serious health issues. I actually was diagnosed with melanoma that year on my leg, and it was like, oh my gosh, Lord. It was a really early stage, and so it was, like, wow, that's like the least of our worries right now. When melanoma is the least your worries, how bad does it get, you know? But there were days when people were so gracious to say, how are you doing? And I didn't want to put on that false faith. Face that said, Oh, I'm doing good. You know, praise God. He still taking care of us. He's so good, you know, we're going to be fine because it wasn't fine. I didn't feel fine. I hadn't lost my faith and I knew God was still there. But I was hurting. He was hurting and so I kind of landed on a phrase for for us that that we kind of adopted, which was we're not okay. But we're okay. We're not doing okay. I'm grieving that I've lost this child. I'm grieving that I may lose my husband and face our golden years all by myself. This isn't what life was supposed to be like. We're no okay. Totally. But we're okay. That's right. Because we do have the Lord. Yeah. And so I loved being able to put those two kind of opposing truths that were true at the same time. And people got it. Yes. They really got it, they're like. Yeah, that the grief and the joy can coexist. Yes, I'm seeing God carry us in ways I've never had to rely on him before. And he has been so faithful. I hate that we have to go through this and get to, that it took getting to that point to really understand the depth and the goodness of God. And I never wanna go back to that place that I was spiritually. Even though I thought I was growing in my faith and walking strong and fine, but there's a new level you get to with the Lord when you have wrestled with the death of a child, with the possible death of the spouse, with a death of dream. And then just think, I don't ever wanna go back to that place, even though it was good for then, that's not where I was meant to stay. And God had something in mind. Deeper, more profound for Chris and me as a couple, because we walked through that, and I think because of what you said, because we'd been putting those four habits in place and building that relationship, that when that big storm came, it didn't knock us off our feet. I mean, we were stumbling around, we took some touches, but our foundation was strong. It was there, yeah. And so, gosh, thank you for sharing that. And you too. That's a... Thank you for share. You know, there's a lot of people that are listening today that are struggling in whatever area it could possibly be that if just for this one five-minute part of the podcast 10-minute that they needed to hear that. Thank you sharing that, man. You know if we can just kind of shift a little bit. And let's talk about some really... Practical ideals, practical things that we can do, especially when it comes to the area of maybe some technology, the impact of technology on our relationship, maybe sexual intimacy, how that can have an impact on our relationships. So in your book, you talk about a tech check. So can you tell us a little bit about that? What does that mean and how do you

Arlene [00:46:11] that play out. This is the kind of thing we can keep doing because we know technology. I want you to now to think of your technology like your phone. Sometimes it is like a third person in the room right? So you would never have dinner and have like another woman at the table or like a dinner and have another man at the tape. Well it'd be like what are they doing there? So to start seeing like wait a minute how is the technology distracting me in this gap? Moment, whether it's just like you're walking from the bathroom to the kitchen, you know, we used to be like, Oh, I see my spouse. Now we like grab our phone and walk from the bathroom to be kitchen, looking at our phone, or we're at a meal and we're looking at our phone instead of our spouse. So this kind of realizing, wait a minute, this is a third person who is not welcome on our date night, who is kind of not welcome, I would say at the beginning of your day, at the end of your in those little... Gap moments between point A to point B at home, like, wouldn't you want to rather talk to your spouse than to talk to you phone? But we need to realize, wait a minute, this phone has been following us all day long. They know exactly, they watch us all the time. They know what ad we would be interested in, what country, what to visit, the shoes we want to get, the sports score that we're interested in. The news story that's really got our interest.

Alisa [00:47:33] You talk about it and suddenly it's popped up in your algorithm.

Arlene [00:47:39] And serving you exactly what you desire with zero pushback and all the compliments in the world. And as we go into this world of chatbots, it's going to get so, so, so much worse that this chatbot is gonna be like, oh, it's such and such a date. It's been three years since you did such and so. That was such a good accomplishment. How'd you feel about that? And you'll think, oh, my spouse didn't even remember that, but it's just an algorithm, right? And we're gonna be tricked. Into thinking like, oh, well, this thing really knows me and my spouse doesn't know me. So all that to say, more than ever, we've got to check what is our relationship with technology and how is it impacting our relationship with our spouse because our spouse is not gonna be able to compete against all the exciting things that your phone will give you and your phone never gives you problems, never questions you. Always thinks you're the best and the greatest and the most amazing person ever and you know so some questions you can ask on the tech check and this is in the book do you check your phone within the first 10 minutes of waking up you know I will admit yes I look at the weather check your phone with the five minutes of receiving a notification use your phone on the toilet sleep sleep with your phone at night feel uneasy leaving your phone at home. Use or look at your phone on a date. So you can, you know, ask yourself these things. Those are pretty revealing. And then have your spouse, you know, be from time to time. Just ask your spouse. Hey, am I using my phone too much? Do you feel like you're in competition with my phone? Now, most of us will not do this because then it means that they get to ask us. And we do not want to be, we want to be left alone. We do. We want to, we don't want to be convicted. We don't wanna be convicted, we don't wanna change our habits. We wanna be left alone and that's why we leave our spouse alone. So this is a bit of a dare to say, do you dare ask your spouse, how am I doing with my phone? Because then they will ask you, you know, may I give that same input to you? And you will need to say yes, you may give that statement put to me.

Alisa [00:49:48] And and what would you okay so let's let's talk to those spouses that dared to take your challenge take the challenge and maybe they heard back some things were a little hard to receive you know kind of poked the bear a little bit yeah can you talk a little about how do you receive it when it's probably kind of a little harsh reality check that's not what i remember that kind of

Arlene [00:50:17] Two ways, let's pretend your spouse couches it in such a beautiful, wonderful way, and you're just so one over and like, yes, dear, great. Or let's say they just like, they read you the riot act and you felt like half of that isn't even true. You're right, okay? So either way it's presented to you, I think it is good for us to be like, well, what's the truth here? Like, where is the truth in this? Because usually when I'm bothered by something my husband says, it's because it has a seed of truth. The truth, yeah. And that's why I'm so bothered. It's a little close to home. Yeah. So most likely whatever they're saying has that seed of truth. And so ask God and maybe don't respond right away. You know, just be like, thanks so much for telling me that I'm going to chew on that for a little bit. And let's talk about this another time, right? So maybe you feel like you can talk about it right then and there do. But if you feel, like, I need to think about this. I'm feeling very defensive right now. And you do this twice as much as I do it. So I don't know why you're talking to me about it, right. Then, you know, let me chew on this. Let me get back to you and really ask God, you know, and just be alone. This is something we never do. We're not alone with our thoughts. And when we're alone with our thoughts and just even ask yourself, is any of this true? And just listen, like put your time on if you're super, you know, type A put it on for two minutes and just ask yourself. Is this true and think about it. And you go, Oh my word.

Arlene [00:51:38] It is.

Arlene [00:51:39] True. I am like that. I didn't know I was becoming like that

Alisa [00:51:43] It's a Psalm 139, 23 and 24 moment, isn't it? Search me, oh God. Yeah, you should be searching him, oh god. That's right, search him. Show him what he's lost enough. That's so much easier to pray than search me, Oh God. Help me to see where I'm offending you and where I am not honoring my husband. Lord, is there something there that I need to hear? And I'm not willing right now to hear it, but Lord, I know you can help me be willing when I'm even willing. You can give me the want to.

Arlene [00:52:19] And that prayer really helped.

Alisa [00:52:20] Good day.

Arlene [00:52:21] It does, because it helps you not be so defensive instead to say, like, okay, what can I do? Because we can't change, we always want to change the spouse, but that's the person we can change. So we can changes us, and a lot of the times it's us anyway.

Alisa [00:52:34] And we can both, if I am offering something that I would like Chris to do, then that can be a perfect opportunity. Not saying that I do this, I'm preaching to myself here, but that can be a great opportunity to say, am I willing to do or to change or to be what I'm asking him to do? Or change or be? Am I doing it? Am I willing hear from him? And so I love James 119, Lord, help me to be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry. Help me be a good listener right now. Wait, what are some tips for being, you were saying, being that good listener. When your blood is just boiling, you said to be willing to examine yourself, go to the Lord, sit and process it, kind of set your timer if it's hard to do that, give yourself time. You know, we can be so quick to say, Lord, what do you want to tell me? What do you wanna show me? And then go ahead and do something else, read about this and that. And we never take time to actually stop and be quiet and listen to the Lord. That's really hard for me.

Arlene [00:53:47] Hard for everybody.

Alisa [00:53:48] Yes, I have all these thousands of thoughts that start entering that compete for my focus and my attention How do you fight that and how what do you do to be that good listening?

Arlene [00:53:59] There's a new thing that I'm starting to do that. It was funny, because I told my husband this, and he's like, I'm all excited about it. And he was like, I do that, I was like you too? And it's just being quiet in the car. So just kind of making it a habit, not all the time, but once. When you're by yourself? When you are by yourself. Oh, okay. Just like, because we always are listening to things, right? And we want to be productive. I get that. Maybe you're listening to this podcast right now in your car. So kudos, you know. But once in a while to be quiet, just to get used to being quiet. So that there are moments in your life you're quiet for more than five minutes so it might be a 10 minute ride and instead of you know listening to music or listening to something you know that I would be quiet and then in the book we talk about different tips of listening and I always thought oh I'm such a good listener but then I realized I am not a good listener so I do something where I finish people's sentences.

Alisa [00:54:50] Oh yeah.

Arlene [00:54:50] Because I think I'm tracking with you when I understand you so James will be talking and then I'll say, oh, so that's why you gave her the present. And he's like, no, I didn't give her anything. If you would just be quiet and listen, like you don't know the end to every story of my life, right? So I realized, oh my goodness, I'm an assumptive listener that I'm always assuming I know what you're going to say. I say it for you, I talk for my children, you know, here are my children right are sitting next to me and I'm like, oh, she wants this and they're like, uh, if you would let me talk. Our brains go so much faster than their mouths do, right? So just think, am I that way? You know, and then the solution is like, Oh, I need to keep my mouth like closed. So I literally will like start saying something to James and then I'll stop myself because he will then, if I say something, he'll say. Would you like to tell the whole story? You know, that's kind of like his little thing. And I'm like, oh, sorry, it's your story. You go ahead and tell your story." So that's one. Another one is like the celebrity listener. So everything's about me. Like it comes back to me, right? So you're listening, but then it's like, oh, you have ants? Oh, that like, that nothing. We had termites and we, you know, you're like a little insect kind of ants. Oh, you have that, oh, I did, oh you went to Italy, oh I went to the Alps, it's always about you, it comes back to you and there obviously is something where you're sharing one to another and that's great and you're relating and that lovely, but it's just the way that you listen, like are you listening just so you can listen for that hinge back to you. Oh my goodness. So that what helps, and that's with our spouses too. We're just listening just enough so that now, okay, I've listened to you. Now you listen a lot to me. And so just picture a halo over the talker's head. And in your mind, think to yourself, they are the one who's talking. This is their moment. This is just my moment to listen. This is not my moment. To try to curve it back to me.

Arlene [00:56:47] Mm-hmm.

Arlene [00:56:48] And do that with your spouse. Like, I'm listening purely to listen, not to get my turn in or anything like that. And then a lot of men are the fixers, right? That we're gonna say something and they're gonna be like, oh, that's so easy. All you have to do is call her, apologize, and you guys will be right as right tomorrow. And you're like, no, I didn't mean to fix it. So that's easily amended. I think by just saying I don't need I'll just tell James. I don't need you to fix this I just want you to listen and say to me that's awful. Like I literally will tell it Just agree. All I want you say is how awful that you had that happen today. That's all I want. Okay Versus him trying to fix it So, you know, I think that if we can learn to focus and that's exactly like that James passage one mouth two ears Right. It's just for important to for us to listen, and we'll learn more

Alisa [00:57:37] that way. Yeah. We actually put together a handout here at the Center for Marriage and Relationships. We put together, it's like a, I don't know, two or three page, maybe it's two pages front and back, a handout of how to be a good listener, how to ask good probing questions instead of automatically turning it to, oh yeah, here's how I can relate to you because here's my experience. I've really been processing that lately. I have a friend that we've been talking about that because I've become aware that I can do that. See, I did it just now. Here's how I relate to that because I do that, but that's my job right now. That's right, that's right. But we've actually been processing and noticing more and more when I do that. And so one of the things that we did is we created this handout of how to be a good listener. How do you ask good, open-ended questions? And like you said, maybe James needed you to just validate, or you needed James to validate for you that, yeah, that person was horrible for saying that to you. It sounds like that really hurt you. Tell me a little bit more about what you were thinking the moment they said that. You know, that's a probing question. It's like, wow, it sounds like that maybe reminded you about something that hurt you before. Was that something that happened to you before? Is that what made you so upset? Or it sounds or I can tell that you're really upset by this. Can you tell me a little bit more about what was going on? What was that like for you? Oh my gosh, this handout is gold. It has a page for like spouses. It has a page for, you know, co-workers, your kids, things like that, so we'll actually put a link to that on our show. I'm gonna click on that link. I gotta give that to you before you leave today. But, you can actually download it on a downloadable PDF that's free on our website, cmr.biola.edu. And I'll give you a copy. But just that whole issue of being such a good.

Arlene [00:59:48] Listeners so there was a few podcasts ago your husband Chris was talking to like college students and they were going to ask him questions and he was like wow this might be a hard But they just asked I don't know how to talk to girls. Yeah, so they asked the question I don't know how, to talk your girls and then your husband gave this amazing answer of just be interested Not don't worry about being interesting Yes, and in marriage it's the same way just keep being interested Like in your spouse by asking like that series of questions you just asked like oh I want to know more Like tell me more about that and that's a really great way to be a listener is be interested in your spouse even though you've been married for 56 years or whatever how long you've been married and you know exactly usually what's in their mind and their habits and what they do but still or even if you're not really

Alisa [01:00:35] or even if you're not really interested, you can still behave as though you're interested, out of kindness, right? Simply because it's important to him, it needs to be important to me, right. I don't care about them. No, I've learned to care about the Dodgers. I'm gonna restate that. I've learn to care the Dodger. I can tell you the whole Dodger lineup now, right! Oh, that's good. Oh yeah. That's good that you have learned it. That's right. They won their playoff game last night. And so, But that's something important that I've learned that even if it's not something that that's interesting to me Yeah, I can at least take an interest and even go as far as to cultivate an interest Yes, simply because it's important to him. That's right a fall

Arlene [01:01:18] Yeah, I have a little saying in the book, if you like it, I'll try it, right? If you like, you like I'll try. Does it mean I'll love it? Does it mean I will do it forever? But I'll try it. It's a great attitude for either spouse to have. If you like it I'll try it!

Alisa [01:01:33] And openness, that you're important to me, and so I'm willing to give it a try. Wonderful, okay. So as we wrap up here, I wanna just touch on this idea of you talk about as you were going into our golden years. You know the front end of marriage, we're just having so much fun. A lot of us, some of us are struggling through those first years or two, they can be a challenge. Or when we're in the throes of having kids, It can... It can be really hard to look at the long game and think long-term, you know, we're in this for the next 60 years. And so, what would you say to that young couple right now? What can they be doing right now to cultivate that perspective of, we are in this the long haul, so what can we be doing today to invest and make that in-game ideal really happen.

Arlene [01:02:31] It's, I think, it's so important to know it's out there, right? So that it's not, it doesn't just creep up on you. Like, wait a minute, we got old, what happened to us? Yeah. So looking at journaling, put beautiful music on and say, in five years, what does our family look like? In 10 years, what does their family look like? And then honestly, if you want to take it, you really could take it. Ten, make a little, like on the paper, 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 30 years from now, 40 years of it now. Put your ages of what your ages will be. If you have children, put the ages of your children next to it and start to dream. And start to like, okay, in 40 years, what do we see? What do we hope? This doesn't mean it has to be exactly this, right? But if you want to obviously be happily married together in 40-years, well, what does that mean today? That means, oh, we don't put the children first. And by that, I mean. We don't say like, oh, we won't date for 18 years We like spend time together because we have to be really ragged or we'll go 10,000 directions with our kids activities But we will just flop in a bed and be like good night

Alisa [01:03:41] to our

Arlene [01:03:42] to our spouse for 20 years. Like, no, like you have to have a relationship. So you have put it that you do not have a child-centered home, but you have a family-centered home, of course you love your children. That's gonna come so naturally. Of course you do. But when it all comes down to it, you know that marriage is the priority relationship. And you're not siding with the kids and against your spouse, but your saying to your spouse you know, hey, you're the number one person to me. And this is something to work at. It becomes natural to take care of your kids because they're little, they need it, right? So you work on this. So I think that's a huge component of it is to make sure that the marriage is being tended well during the child raising years. And then when your children leave your home, then you still know each other and you still enjoy each other and you just continue instead of thinking like, oh my goodness, now what do we do? And then your kids grow up with. I would like to be married someday because that looked kind of fun because if they grew up and all they think is oh my Mother and father they're just like Butler limo driver check brighter Like why do I want that? Yeah, or I am doing a marriage. I don't want that right right so so have that so I think that forecasting Dreaming you know if you have a baby, what it's gonna be like when they're teenagers when they are teenagers What are we gonna be? Like during the emptiness years if you're in the middle of the empty nest years What do we want to be like in our 60s 70s 80s? What are ways we can give back to the community? What are the ways we find meaning in life? Are there things together that we like to do? My husband and I have been going to a club at our public school that my daughter started when she was in junior high. But she is now, she's in high school now, but I still go to the club, and now my husband James joins us on Fridays. We go in it for like a half an hour during their lunch hour. And we meet with students in a classroom and it's adorable and it so much fun. So find things that you can do together and plan on that. And we're going dancing. So that's our new pickup that you wear. What kind? I like ballroom. So like swing, foxtrot, walls, tango, like learning, it's hysterical. Hysterical. So my husband is a college student again at the community college taking dance classes. I will go to these dances and it's very funny. Like we're not amazing, but we're having fun. So just plan for the future that way. Activities together, service together, plan for future and know that you really can plan for this happy future.

Alisa [01:06:16] And I think what you're saying is key is that it takes a plan to take some plan a plan is intentional you give it thought It's not going to just happen. Yeah, it takes A lot of hard work thought commitment intentionality But then look where you end up 26 years later 38 years later with a marriage Better than you ever dreamed that it could be yeah and that that's possible and that's and we're nobody special yes right you listener can do this exactly exactly i grew up in a home with parents that were divorced my husband's parents were divorced and we just determined at the outset that is not going to be us we're going to do something different and so we've worked really hard because it doesn't come natural yeah but with the lord's grace yeah and our willingness to cooperate with the holy spirit the lord can do incredible things and in us, in our marriage, and therefore in our family. Making marriage easier. There you go. Awesome. Well, Arlie, gosh, I feel like we could just sit here and do a little bit of fun. Thank you so much for coming. You came all the way up from San Diego, brought your beautiful daughter, Lucy. We're glad you came, Lucy, but let's see your book. Hope you have a great day. Making marriage easier, how to love and like your spouse for life. I love that. And so it's available, you can get it on Amazon, wherever you get your books, and you're on social media, Instagram, Facebook, what's your handle?

Arlene [01:07:40] At Arlene Pelicane on Instagram, ArlenePelicaneAuthor on Facebook, and then the website, just by name, arlenepelicane.com. And if you click on the book, Making Marriage Easier, it'll take you to free date night ideas. You can listen to the first chapter for free. It has all sorts of freebies for you.

Alisa [01:07:56] Oh, wonderful. I love that, okay. Well, there you've got it, and we're so glad that you joined us today. And just so you know, this podcast, The Art of Relationships is brought to you by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. We're part of Talbot School of Theology, and we are glad that were here today. So we'll see you next time on The Art Of Relationships, bye bye.

Mandy [01:08:21] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.