In this episode, Chris and Alisa Grace unpack what it really means to have a Christ-centered marriage. Beyond simply sharing a faith background, they explore the defining traits of a marriage where Jesus is truly at the center. Drawing from Scripture, research, and their own marriage journey, they discuss key differences between valuing Christ and truly centering your relationship on Him, as well as practical habits that help couples reflect the love of Christ daily.

From healthy communication and conflict resolution, to servant leadership, prayer, and practicing gratitude, Chris and Alisa provide practical insights to strengthen your marriage and encourage spiritual growth together. Whether you’re married, engaged, or dating with faith at the core, this episode offers a powerful vision of how your relationship can point others to Christ.

Resources Mentioned:

• Fierce Marriage 40-Day Prayer Guides – Devotionals designed to help you pray intentionally for your spouse. shop.fiercemarriage.com/products/40-day-prayer-journey-couples-bundle-2-books?srsltid=AfmBOopx3UCuDhkuufGJP2QnGFa3gmkg4PtwKIJjVTke7EtsgSRIyNK7
• Ron Blue Trust – Biblically centered financial planning for couples seeking unity in stewardship. ronblue.com

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• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

Chris [00:00:00] In today's episode, we're unpacking what it really means to have a Christ-centered marriage. Beyond shared faith or church attendance, what are the defining traits of a marriage where Jesus is truly at the center? We'll look at biblical foundations, psychological research, and real-life practices that help couples reflect the love of Christ in their everyday relationship.

Mandy [00:00:21] Welcome to The Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships Let's get right into it.

Chris [00:00:32] Okay, welcome to another Art in Relationship podcast brought to you by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationship. And this one, Lisa, man, we're going to talk about a Christ-centered marriage, a question we get all the time. What does it mean to grow together, walk together? I mean, we do that independently, right? We expect that of each other and hope that that's the case and pray for it. But what does it truly look like to do that together?

Speaker 3 [00:01:01] Yeah, I would say not only married couples, but couples that are dating that are really believers and want to do dating well, want to marriage well. This question comes up all the time. It's like, okay, it sounds great in theory, but what does that really look like and sound like on a practical level?

Chris [00:01:20] Okay, so the keyword here is Christ-centered.

Alisa [00:01:23] Mm-hmm.

Chris [00:01:23] Right? This takes the assumption that each individual person is walking with Jesus, wants to grow in their faith, right? Wants to develop their, you know, discipleship and all these things. But it really does come down the question to, but how do we do that together? What does that look like together? You know, one important big question to be asked is, Maybe a starting question is... What if God is doing something bigger together with us than he wants to do individually? We each have individual spiritual temperaments, right? I meet with God and talk with God in a different way than you do, I'd say. And that's okay, but are there ways we can do something that grows us together that does help us reach a better purpose? Right, something that God's intending for you as a couple. Right, what could that be?

Alisa [00:02:24] So, Chris, would you say, is there a difference between two Christians being married? Does that mean if you're both Christians, does that mean you automatically have a Christ-centered marriage?

Chris [00:02:37] Yeah, it's a straightforward question that you would say, all right, well, we're both Christians. But I think in what, you can answer, it kind of depends. But you can say it probably isn't if Jesus is just valued in both your relationship versus Jesus is Lord, right? That's a little bit of a difference.

Alisa [00:02:58] It's not a nuanced difference, but it's a really important difference.

Chris [00:03:01] I think so, it's a difference that says, all right, I will follow him above all else, but I'm also seeking and wanting to know, how can my marriage glorify God? How can my relationship with this other person, how can I bring them closer to God, right? And what can I do to encourage you in your walk with Jesus and make that happen? So here's one. I think we grow closer together, more Christ-centered, when you and I are both walking, you know, independently in our walks, but then we're looking out for the other person. We're thinking about that, right? So like you being out in, let's say, for example, nature or in worship, kind of feeds your soul. And in so doing, I know that we do better. When I make efforts to find ways to help you accomplish that. And then it leads to the other thing, which is we begin to ask each other questions about, so tell me about what God's doing in your life. What are you learning recently, or what are some things, right?

Alisa [00:04:13] I think another aspect of having a Christ-centered relationship or marriage is we're, let's say in a marriage that is just two Christians, where Jesus is valued. It's valued, but it's not focused and centered on him. That would be the difference between being problem-focused and, like, I think what you're saying, being other-focused, right? So we focus at the the one where It's, Jesus is just valued. And now in that marriage, we tend to focus more on our problems. Where, you know, we're missing this, you're not doing that, I'm not doing this. We've got financial issues, we've got issues with the kids, you know or work is not going well. Gosh, you're, at least your mom's driving me crazy. You know, we're just focused on those problem areas. As opposed to being other-focused, focused on Christ, bringing him into those problems and approaching those problems from a surrender. Lord, we've got issues with our finances and we need your instruction, we need Your help with it. Being other-focused is, I think what you're saying, figuring out where you feel closest to God in serving you in that way, making sure for you, Weird. Spiritual temperament could be like reading faith centered books or themes of faith in books and finding God in like these great works of literature and discussing it. You know I want to go you know hang myself for that but that that really sparks your love for God to really think those deep thoughts and talk about so I want to enjoy that with you. Encourage you in it and join you in when I can't.

Chris [00:06:12] You know, oh, thanks, I think that's exactly what it means. And then, and then joining in when you can. So, you know, what you did was, you joined in, you dealt like, you love reading. I mean, you devour more books, I think, than anybody I know. Just not Dostoevsky. Yeah, and so our reading kind of loves, kind of like movie loves a little bit, are different, right? But you took on. You know, and went to a reading club for 12 years with a bunch of faculty who read a bunch of books that were awesome and wonderful. And for you, they were like, dear, mom, that's bad. And I don't want to read that book at all. And you're like, all right, well, I'll read it and then wait, crime and punishments or whatever, you know.

Alisa [00:07:00] I did love Anna Karenina, that was so good.

Chris [00:07:04] Yeah, but all that to say, I think that's what joining in means. It's being willing to do, you know, something for the sake of the other person's growth and spirituality. You know, Lise, I guess when we talk about this idea of Jesus really is Lord and we're doing this together, Christ-centered, I mean, there's a lot of little characteristics that you would start to say all right, it's about being open to the other person. And it's about listening to understand, right? It's about hearing the other person. I mean, all of those traits we can start adding in.

Alisa [00:07:35] Yeah, it's like really focusing on, there's a whole third entity once you get married. There's a you, there is a me, and that third one now is there's an us. And are we really pursuing us? Not neglecting that we have individual interests and activities and dreams, but the overall goal is to really promote the us aspect of that relationship in a Christ-centered relationship.

Chris [00:08:03] So let's say, what can we do better together than we can do it, than we can individually? And I think for us, one of the things we decided early on in the marriage was, all right, we're going to go in this together and find that thing that we do well together, that we can't do alone. And so for us it was starting really early on. Uh, researching and writing and speaking on dating, right? And helping college students. And, but we did it together, right. We sat and did chapels together and we worked on talks together. And that was hard because we see things differently, right, we're different people and we struggled like, okay, wait, don't, let's don't do that. Let's do this. But I think what we did, Lisa, is we decided, all right, well, let find a ministry that we can do together. That both satisfies, you know, this desire to grow together but it also ministers together. Yeah. And it's a good temperament that, like, let's suppose one of you really wants to, loves helping the homeless or the needy, right, or whatever. I think the other one may not kind of like that as much or feel as comfortable. But doing it together can really begin to grow you as a couple. So you and I, one of the first things that we did when we were married, of all things, is run a home right for runaway teenagers.

Speaker 4 [00:09:43] Six troubled teenagers. I was 23 and you were 27. That was crazy.

Chris [00:09:49] So here we are, we live in a home here in Southern California and we have six kids that live with us for up to a month or two months at a time. But we decided together, let's do this, this is a great opportunity to minister together in a way, right? And then our teaching and speaking is like, let us do this. So whatever it is, you find that temperament or that gifting or that ability or that Passion and desire. And then you encourage it in the other person and you also join them at that, right? Yeah, that's a really good one. Okay, so let's talk then about something related to, if we defined it, you know, somebody once wrote Jesus is the model, not the mascot. Like, all right, Jesus is like cool in our marriage, but no, a Christ-centered marriage is where two people are really saying, what would Jesus do in this? How do I treat this other person? Because selfishness, for example, is huge when you first start and to model what Jesus would do is to give up self in many ways at the cost of like, I'd like going to eat Chinese food and she hates it. Maybe I need to give that up for a while and let her win. So yeah.

Alisa [00:11:06] Get Chinese food for now on my own.

Chris [00:11:09] Okay, so we have those kinds of things, at least when it comes to this idea of a Christ-centered marriage, in another way, right? This isn't about just trying to find, you know, happiness and satisfaction. It's about kind of sanctification together. Oh, man.

Alisa [00:11:29] And it's a row. Boy, if marriage is anything, it's nothing if not sanctifying. Because the Lord uses this unique relationship, doesn't he, to rub off those rough edges, to bring a deeper formation in our heart of our character, to be more conformed to Christ and to love like Jesus, where... I think the perfect scripture that goes with this is the 1 Corinthians 13, right? And in John, John describes God as God is love, right, He is His essence, His character is love. And in 1 Corinthians, 13, well, let's take a look at that. We're all very familiar with it, where love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, right. We can read this whole thing, but... One thing that we were really encouraged to do was to look at that and replace the word love with God. First of all, God is patient. God is kind. God doesn't envy, he doesn't boast, he's not proud, he's no rude. And so we get an idea of the character of God and the conforming image of Christ that's our goal as believers. And so then to put your own name. And replace the word love with your own name and see where are you measuring up? Where are you hitting some high points? And then which ones are you really struggling with? And so just take a listen to this and just imagine putting your own name in this verse and sitting with that and asking the Lord, Lord, where is it you want to grow me in this? Which ones am I? Falling short that you want to develop and bring that more into conformity in my character with yours. And so it would sound something like this, Chris. Alisa is patient. Alissa is kind. Alisa does not envy. She does not boast. She is not proud. Aliza is not rude. Is not self-seeking. Alisa is not easily angered. Alisa keeps no record of wrongs. Where's your ring? Wait a second.

Chris [00:14:00] I've seen those record.

Alisa [00:14:02] I was going to say this is really, it's really kind of hard to read because as I'm reading them I'm feeling the impact of how much I do not.

Speaker 5 [00:14:13] You've read me those records, quite a pair, I mean, no, of course I'm teasing.

Alisa [00:14:18] No. Okay, so I'll finish this out. So love or Elisa does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth, even if truth is sometimes hard to hear and hard to say. Right? Elisa always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Elisa never fails. Man, I It moves me reading that. I mean, it really has moved me to tears. Just to read that scripture and to see the vision of God's ideal for marriage. Ideal for me as an individual, you as an individuals, and for us as a married couple, to live this out and to entreat one another in a way that conforms to the image of Christ in this way. And there's... I'm struck at once by the futility of it, of the Lord. This is such a high standard. There is no way that I can attain this. And knowing that it's at that very moment, that in all His compassion and kindness that He says, Elise, I know. I know you were never meant to live up to this and attain this on your own. But here's the beauty of it, in your weakness, I am strong. He says, that's where I shine through. And I am willing to do it in you and through you and for you if you will cooperate with my Holy Spirit and allow me to do. But the first step, Lise, is in admitting and recognizing you'll never live up to it. And that's OK, because I will do it for you. And I've mentioned this verse several times on our podcast that is so meaningful to me in this journey with the Lord. And it's this, it's Philippians 2.13. And it says, for God, he says, I am at work in you, Elisa, giving you two things. I'm giving you the desire to do my will, which is 1 Corinthians 13, and the power to do it. You don't have to do it on your own. I don't mean for you to do on your. And if you try to do this kind of Christ centered marriage on your, if Chris is trying to do in his own strength, you're both gonna fail miserably. And the only hope you have is for you to recognize your desperateness. Throw yourself onto my mercy seat and cry out to me. And in my ever. Never ending compassion, never ending mercy, I will do it for you. Will you believe me? Will you trust me? And then not only do I do it for you, but I maintain it. That full surrender, I will maintain that for you." So it's such a powerful aspect of marriage that we can get hold of that. If couples can get hold of that idea of that full. Full surrender to the Lord, leaning on Him, depending on Him. You will have a Christ-centered marriage, and it'll be a marriage beyond all that you can ask.

Chris [00:17:50] Yeah. Our think. Gosh, well, thanks for sharing your heart and thanks for giving us guys such a powerful insight not only into your heart, and where you're at, but just kind of an everyday practical thing you can do is, all right, let me assess where I'm at. So thanks for showing that. That's really cool. I you know, it's one of those things where relationships are going to be the place where love is going to be seen. And so you started off by saying that love is what, you know, what does it mean? Well, we're probably talking, as Paul did there, with our closest relationships, sometimes our others. But when both people want to do that, that's where it's going to say, okay. Then, Lise, I think just thank you again for sharing your heart with that. Well, you know, when it comes to money and marriage, we all want clarity and confidence, right? And especially unity with spouses, right. I think Lisa, that's why we get to work personally with Colby Gilmore of Blue Trust.

Alisa [00:19:12] That's right. Colby Gilmore, along with other Blue Trust certified wealth strategists, offers personalized, biblically centered financial planning and investment management services no matter what your income level is.

Chris [00:19:26] Lisa, say that title twice. Blue Trust Certified Wealth Strategist. That's a tough one. I'm not sure I could. I know. So they do put clients' best interests first, and they don't sell financial products. I love that about them.

Alisa [00:19:38] Me too, and you know what, we highly recommend Colby Gilmore and Blue Trust for anyone looking for both financial unity with your spouse and opportunities to increase your wealth and your generosity.

Chris [00:19:50] Yeah, so if you guys want to check out ronblue.com or reach out to Colby Gilmore at colby.gilmore at ron blue.com that's colby dot gilmore at rong blue dot com i think you guys will be glad you did I think what happens is when both couples are committed to that, it may not necessarily result in a ministry together that's obvious, but what's more powerful is that people can see that in couples who treat each other that way. And that Christ-centeredness marriage, that type of marriage where you're treating each other that way, speaks to the world and tells the world, hey, here's something to pay attention to. This is something that I don't see in most marriages. When I see a couple out on a walk or at the grocery store, they're kind of bickering and arguing. But this becomes a testimony to a world that's hurting that needs to know? How can I do marriage well, right? It's almost like being these very strong advocates of marriage, not by words, not by what the way I tell people I love you, not by saying, oh, this is great, we love Jesus, all that. It's seen by my behavior as language and how I love You based upon 1 Corinthians.

Alisa [00:21:28] So I think one of the practicals, well let's talk about what are some practical, really everyday instances where this plays out. And like one of first things I think about that comes to mind is this looks like and sounds like assuming the best of you. You know, maybe if we have a misunderstanding or a conflict, a marriage where Christ is valued. Might be where I'm assuming the worst of you. You know, it's like, wow, he's really, yeah. Or, yeah, he is so selfish. You know he never follows through. He's always this, he never does that. But instead in a Christ-centered marriage, this plays out when I approach you with the perspective of I'm gonna assume the best of you, maybe you were a little cranky at dinner tonight, a little short with me, but instead of attributing that to That's just you. You're just a jerk. You are not very nice. You aren't very thoughtful. Assuming the best sounds like, wow, I wonder if Chris had something happened at work today. I wonder he's not feeling good today because he doesn't normally respond in that way. And so the way that sounds is, Chris, how are you doing today? You know, it seems like something's wrong, maybe under the surface, maybe you're not feeling good. Just, you know, where are you at today? What's going on with you?

Chris [00:22:56] Yeah, no, I think that's...

Alisa [00:22:57] And that's giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Chris [00:23:00] Yeah, and I think that assuming the best or giving the benefit of doubt really does come down to, again, going back to first Corinthians is, all right, love is patient, right? And part of that is, hold on here. What I wanted to treat it this way, what I want to be thought about that way, you know, most of us, you know, in those situations when the other person kind of thinks the or assumes the worst, you know, or does it give you the benefit of the doubt? You always wanted the fan, like there's the good part of me, I wish you could see that or you should have known that it, you know, I did get a flat tire or the traffic was horrible and that's why I'm late, not because I'm rude or unkind.

Alisa [00:23:39] And do you think another aspect of that same thing is being willing to take the other person's perspective? To be willing to put yourself in their shoes, see whatever's going on in life from their shoes. What is that like to walk into work for you every day when you're not feeling good?

Chris [00:23:59] Yeah, the idea of perspective taking, right? I think Tim Muehlhoff's favorite phrase, you know, and looking at it, he's a communications expert. But it's more, it's something that is a principle that a lot of researchers have landed on that can help a marriage grow together, you know, and it's like, oh, I don't want to see from their perspective. How are these same things? What does this mean? So, you just opened up your heart and shared a lot about, you know, where you're at. And so, for me, one of the things I can do is go, oh, all right, that gives me insight into her heart and what's really there and what makes that be. And then I can encourage that or join in. And it really does take a lot of being able to set aside oneself and listen to other right it to grow and to hear and to Listen that way. That's good. All right, Lisa, let's try something else. What are some common misperceptions or misconceptions? Let's say I'm a Christ-centered marriage.

Alisa [00:25:07] That's really great question.

Chris [00:25:10] Does it mean, for example, that we're not going to be in conflict then? I mean, if you agree you're in a Christ-centered marriage, are you going to see people like, oh, okay, they were Christ-centered marriage, you never see them in conflict?

Alisa [00:25:19] No, because in essence, we still are two broken people living on this side of heaven and engaging in life. And so the goal is not perfection, but patience and having that shared goal of a Christ-centered marriage, right? And we're not gonna be perfect, we're gonna mess up, but are we willing to take the other person's perspective? Assume the best of each other? Are we willing to be quick to forgive and quick to ask for forgiveness? Are we being good listeners, like setting, you know, putting the computer aside, putting my phone down, making arrangements for the kids to be taken care of, so I can really listen to not only your words, but your heart. What are the emotions behind what you're saying? What are your What are your hopes in this situation? Chris, and I really want to listen and hear your heart and be willing to set those other things aside, really listen well.

Chris [00:26:22] Okay, so going back to the conflict part, it doesn't mean conflict-free, right? It means it's just the way you approach conflict, or like Jesus had conflict all the time. People misread him, they thought he was this, or they thought it was that, and just his patience in working with his disciples, right? But you know, forgiving, you know just amazing story of Peter being forgiven, right, for denying Christ. And that causes conflict. I mean that's, so a Christ centered marriage, that would say a Christ-centered relationship with Christ himself and Peter, isn't free of conflict. It's just that you manage it, navigate it, and we have a model of how to do that, Jesus. So that's one misconception. So. What's another one, Lisa? I think this idea is that we're the same, right? Okay, spiritual, you know, Christ in a marriage means, okay, you and I are now the same spiritually. He's like, yeah, that's not it. We're not the same. No. You see and read things that hit you differently. God speaks to you in a different way than he does me. And that's awesome because together it's like wow that's pretty cool insight

Alisa [00:27:42] And there are times when you're stronger spiritually in your walk than I am. And that's a great time for you to encourage me and to support me and pray for me. And then, you know what? Six months down the road, maybe the tables are flopped there, you now? And my walk is really on key and I'm locked in with the Lord and maybe you're struggling a little bit. So it doesn't mean that we're always gonna be exactly the same in personality, our spiritual temperament even. Our spiritual walk at the time. But it does mean that we do share the same spiritual goals that, hey, we want to together, individually and together pursue Jesus. And together we want to attend church on a regular basis and be integrated into that church family. We wanna pray together. We really have that value that prayer is important And we want to be a couple that that has a strong prayer life individually as well as together. So it's not always the same, but the end goal is a shared goal and we learn to integrate our individual pathways so that we are doing it together.

Chris [00:28:59] Yeah, that's really good. And it doesn't mean necessarily sameness, but man, it does mean almost more complete and more whole, right?

Alisa [00:29:06] Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry, were you going to say something? Okay, I was going to say another misperception or a myth that I think can come about from the whole spiritual intimacy, spirituality, and marriage is the whole idea of gender roles, of the headship of the husband. The whole issue of submission and authority. Yes, that, gosh, we can do a whole podcast. In fact, maybe we should on that particular topic, but just touching on it quickly, Ephesians 5 is a great passage to look at in terms of gender roles. So pretty humbling passage. That's right. And the myth is that, oh, the husband makes all the decisions. He gets to decide what is right and wrong. And the wife has to submit and obey and do everything he says. That is not complementarianism. That is not a biblical idea of headship.

Chris [00:30:08] No, it's authoritarian.

Alisa [00:30:08] And, yeah, and submission. So maybe that's a great opportunity to just talk about what does that biblical headship for a husband, what is that, and what is it not, maybe? What does that look like?

Chris [00:30:22] I will tell you, it's extremely humbling, uh, to consider that as, okay, that's what you expect of me. You expect me to die to self. You expect to honor you above all else, God, you know, I'm talking about God, die to self, honor him. Um, and... Be held responsible for the spiritual integrity and walk of not just myself but of my family and to take on that leadership is, in my opinion, very humbling because it's clear if you have any walk with God that you recognize how far short you fall of 1st Corinthians. 13. You know, I'm not always patient. I'm not always kind. And that I have to do that.

Alisa [00:31:22] To be willing to lay down your life like Christ did the

Chris [00:31:26] it's the ultimate set of servant service. What that means is servant leadership, it doesn't mean, well I'll tell you what it doesn' mean, it doesn't mean oh this is what we're going to do and we're gonna do our finances this way, we're doing our spirituality this way. We're gonna our religion this way we're do our parenting this way that's, well, that's just messed up, right? I mean that's taking authoritarianism. To an extreme and pretending as if I'm the boss spiritually. Therefore, and I'm the boss in God's eye, therefore I get to tell you and make the final decisions. It's so far from that to be a leader and to have that mantle upon you as a servant. It's servant leadership. It means what ways am I going to give up me to serve you in a way and it's not saying that it's not meekness It's strength, right, to not to say weakness. Yeah, weakness or weakness of, oh, whatever, you know, I'm not giving it on. You know, the opposite of spiritual leadership is not taking any control, not taking any interest, one extreme being my way or the highway. This is how we're going to do it, right? I'm the leader, I am the man, I the boss, I'm husband, okay, that's an extreme that has significant problems with it. But the other end is would you abdicate and give up completely any of that and say, look, man, we're either in this together or you make those big decisions about life, it's pretty sure. Whatever you want. And whatever you want, I just, just leave me alone and we'll, okay, I'll go to church with you, but just leave alone. So from those two extremes, what really happens, I think, in my opinion is this notion of what did, how did Jesus, as the, as the you know he took the church as the bride. How did he serve? Well at the very end of the day he gave up his life for the many not in order to be served but to serve. So some leaders go oh serve me that's that's your job go in there and see what I don't know whatever I want whatever I need. I didn't use it to say... Buddy, I think you got this backwards. I think the goal is you go in there and figure out how you can best serve your spouse, your wife, that's called leadership. That's where it takes place. What is in her best interest? What is then the way in which, and then it's listening to God as to what can I do to best be this servant as a leader owning that. But God, you're looking to me to model and walk with you in this way. Wow. That is not easy, but man, does it work when we are able to do something Christ centered together in a way that brings God glory because, because it does what Jesus would have done. What did Jesus, how did he serve, right? How do I stimulate, said he, one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our assembling and being together, but encouraging one another, all the more, right, as the day draws near. And so many passages speak to Jesus being this servant. And he was humble, he was kind, he was all the first Corinthians, and patient. That servant leadership and it's owning that responsibility that this falls on me to model that. The family.

Alisa [00:35:25] That's huge. That's beautiful. And I just want to thank you because you really do do that well, Chris. You do. And our kids have seen you do that. And they've grown up with a good perspective of our daughters and what to look for in a husband, and then our son and the kind of husband that he's supposed to be, and I'm just... Thank the Lord every day that he brought you to me, that I chose wisely, and that you are my husband, and I'm so glad. And then let's look at the other part of that too, when we talk about the gender roles in that, and part of the misperception is that, well, women are just supposed to submit. The wives just submit and obey men and do whatever they say in the whole doormat mentality. I cannot say strongly enough that that is completely opposite of a biblical view of submission. Because first of all, in Ephesians 5 passage, the first thing it says is he's telling the men and women to submit to one another, submit to another, and he does it in terms of just like Christ does, right? And because the Lord calls us to. So he says that. Second of all, he says, wives, submit to your husbands, right after he says the husband is the head of the life. Yeah, we're getting into the weeds. We might be hearing back from some people, push back on this, that you cannot get away from what scripture says.

Speaker 5 [00:37:09] Well, you can't push back on us, but you can push back on all you push back, on Jesus. You can push reality on the Bible, but I'm.

Chris [00:37:15] Just, we're just saying what it says.

Alisa [00:37:17] Yeah, and so when he does call the wives to submit to their husbands, first of all, he did not call women to submit men in general. He called women to their own husbands, and he also said, it's interesting because when you go back to that passage in Genesis where God is going through creation, He created man and he said it's not good for him to be on his own. Not good for him to be alone, and in the small print it says, because if he's on his own, he's getting in trouble. And so he needs a helper that is suitable for him. And so it's interesting, because that word helper appears in the Old Testament 21 times. And out of that 21 times, six.

Chris [00:38:06] Doesn't refer to-

Alisa [00:38:08] Yes, 16 of those times it refers to God Himself. No, to God, God Himself, He refers to Himself as the helper. And so throughout the Psalms it refers to God is my helper, my refuge in times of trouble. He is my Helper, my strong tower that I ran into. And what's interesting is it comes with a connotation. And is used oftentimes in terms of a military term of one who rescues or saves. And that is like the hero that runs in and rescues and saves. It's never used in terms of one, who is inferior, but is only either an equal or superior. And so when you look at the totality of scripture, women are never called to be superiors, the wives to their husbands. But scripturally they are seen as equally strong, valuable, that she is called to come alongside him, to rescue him, to save him, to be that strong, suitable helper. So it is a term of great value and worth. And so you don't see any signs of being a doormat in there. And so when you take that beautiful picture of servant leadership, one who is ready and willing to lay down his life to seek her best and her willing to come under his authority to support him, encourage him, and help him in making wise, godly decisions, then that is like the epitome of a Christ-centered marriage. That is where you are working together, you are humming. On all cylinders, fire and oil, all cylinders where Christ is the center of that. And you feel that synergy in a way that is really satisfying and meaningful and almost like an orchestra where all the pieces are playing their part and it just makes a beautiful symphony of marriage.

Speaker 5 [00:40:17] At least, uh, uh... Great.

Chris [00:40:21] Great picture and explanation of how we do this together in a marriage that brings glory and honor by the way we treat each other in role as husband and role as wife. We of course are complementarian and you know we simply feel like that's the what you just described and laid out and is Biblical and... It gives us just this opportunity to individually just put ourselves and say, Lord, take me and use me, show me, right? And when we do that, when we turn over our hearts, you know, there are some couples that we always say at least it's easier to work with couples that are struggling that have an open heart, an open hard towards each other, an open heart toward God. It's when there's a closed heart they're unwilling to hear is really hard to work with someone with a closed heart and that's kind of what we're talking about.

Alisa [00:41:27] Yeah, so, Chris, maybe as we wrap this episode up, let's look at some practical takeaways. Okay, so one of the practical takeaways that we would offer first is practice healthy communication and conflict management. Healthy communication, where you are expressing your expectations clearly, right? Because expectations without communication. Leads to frustration and resentment and bitterness. So practice healthy communication, express clearly what your heart is, what your needs are, what's the positive need that you need from your spouse, and then to use healthy conflict management where you're really approaching that conflict. This is an opportunity for growth. This is a opportunity for me to hear your heart, your perspective, put myself in your shoes, expect. The best, assume the best. Validate your perspective and under, yeah, I could see why you would feel that way. I can see, given the situation, why you have been hurt by the way I said that. And then taking responsibility, being quick to ask for forgiveness, to say, I'm sorry, I really messed that up. Will you please forgive me? So how about you, what's another practical takeaway?

Chris [00:42:48] Yeah, I love that, you know, that takeaway added to another one that you already did. Go reread the 1 Corinthians 13 passage and put your name in it. It's called self-assessment. It's figuring out, where am I? So a lot of this starts with going, all right, where I am in this? How am I doing in this, am I willing to admit wrong and am I'm willing to Seek forgiveness. Am I willing to change my behavior and to put it under a microscope? So I think that's another practical takeaway is what you did with First Corinthians, Third Town is put your name in it and go from there. See what God does.

Alisa [00:43:31] I love that, Chris, because what you just said was too often couples come in for counseling and their goal is, I want you to change him. I want to change her, because if he changes, we'll be fine. What you're saying is exactly the opposite. You're saying, do that self-assessment, Lord. On these, 1 Corinthians 13, I'll write them down, Lord, help me to assess honestly and openly. Which ones I need to grow and do better in. And the Lord, another practical takeaway is that praying, praying for your marriage, praying for you spouse. There's so many great resources out there about 40 days of prayer for your husband, 40 days a prayer for you wife. I think that's by Fierce Marriage. And I actually bought that for us too, so big plug for Fierced Marriage on that resource. And I love it going through in the morning when I'm doing my quiet time. I have my time with the Lord, things that I'm praying about. And then I read a chapter in that book and I have a dedicated time of prayer for you. Every day for these 40 days. And when you pray for somebody, it cultivates a deeper capacity for love, for forgiveness, for all those things that we've been talking about this whole episode. It deepens and strengthens your capacity to live that out by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Chris [00:45:02] So what else? I think, well, I think maybe a final takeaway, maybe you'll have one as well for me, would be the idea of, I've already mentioned that, find something that you could do together, right? You serve, and that you do something together. Maybe you both greet at the church, or you, you know, maybe, you knows, greeters, or maybe you both go to a homeless shelter, or maybe- Pregnancy crisis. Yeah, you do some sort of together. But I think probably- One of the biggest things is also just a recognition, too, of knowing and thinking through what you said earlier, assume the best. But a way to do that more practically is assume that, but go ahead and write it down. Write something down every day about your spouse that you're grateful for or a trait that you love, right, every day. And so, you know, instead of me, you know, complaining about the fact that You, I can't even think of anything, but instead, finding something that you appreciate and value, a trait in your spouse, write it down. This is after you, with all the prayer and everything else you're doing. And then even keeping a record of that. A journal, a gratitude journal.

Alisa [00:46:17] That's right. And when you're in conflict, go back and visit that gratitude journal and remind yourself of why you fell in love with them in the first place.

Chris [00:46:26] Well, Lisa, in essence, wouldn't we just say the Bible is actually a God's gratitude journal, Jesus' gratitude journal for us to go back and read. What we can look at it is, wow, look how much God loves me. Look how much god values me. And look how, and it's like, that's kind of the idea. We go back, and remind ourselves of the amazing things. That you have done as a spouse and others have done and, or God has done.

Alisa [00:46:58] That's right, don't worry about anything, but instead pray about everything. Tell God what you need in your marriage, and then thank him. And then all these things. All that, yeah, what he added to, yeah. So, okay, and so one last one maybe I wanted to mention is not only to practice gratitude in that journal where you're thinking through your partner, what you love, appreciate, value about them, that you actually verbalize it and affirm. Your spouse every day. That means saying thank you for something you noticed that they did, even if it's common everyday occurrences. Hey, thanks for emptying the dishwasher. I really appreciate that you did that. Or I really appreciated the way that you conducted yourself in that meeting today. That was a tough meeting and I really respect the way you handled yourself. I thought you did a great job.

Chris [00:47:55] Yeah. Well, I didn't even know he had a dishwasher.

Speaker 4 [00:47:59] Maybe I needed things that, no, no.

Chris [00:48:02] Yeah, no, thanks, Leah. I think that's good. So here's one. Yeah, thank you for opening up your heart and sharing and showing your heart as you read and as you read God's Word, right, and doing that. And thank you for doing that, that's awesome. I love the fact that you feel that close and recognize him, want to walk with him and please him, and you bring that assessment towards yourself of Lord, am I doing this well. So thanks for doing that, it was wonderful.

Speaker 5 [00:48:31] Awful moment.

Alisa [00:48:33] Well, I think we have not exhausted it by any means, but I think that we've taken a good first step in addressing what is a Christ-centered marriage, what does it look like, and the benefits of when you do this work.

Chris [00:48:47] Yeah, when you fix your eyes on Jesus, man, your marriage is going to be impacted.

Alisa [00:48:54] It'll be impacted and it will impact others. Because it becomes a signpost, right? The way you love each other, the way you communicate with honesty, with respect, the way do forgiveness, conflict, the way handle disagreements about money or the way raise your kids. And yet you did it in a way that was really honoring to each other. How do you do that? And then your marriage becomes a signed post to others. That points to God, that you say, you know what, it's not easy, but here's how I do it. I spend time in prayer, and you use that as a launching pad to share the gospel.

Chris [00:49:34] Side post and a model to a hurting world. Yeah. Chris. Hey, well, good job. Thanks for joining us on this great, I think, Art of Relationship podcast. And go check us out, cmr.biola.edu. Thanks to Tatum Munivez for all her hard work in getting this thing all set up and doing all the tech stuff behind the scenes.

Alisa [00:49:56] And thank you to Biola University, a sponsor of this podcast, and also just that we are now part of Talbot School of Theology. That is awesome here at Biola university, so check out Talbot's School of theology. And we'll see you next time on the art.

Mandy [00:50:13] Relationships. We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on the art of relationships.