In this episode, Alisa Grace sits down with licensed marriage and family therapist Willa Williams to unpack how your family of origin shapes the way you love, connect, and relate today. Together, they explore how childhood caregiving environments form your attachment style—secure, avoider, pleaser, or vacillator—and how those patterns often surface in adult relationships, marriages, and even your walk with God.

They break down how misinterpretations happen, why couples get stuck in pursue–withdraw cycles, and what to do when your emotional reactions today are rooted in yesterday’s wounds. Most importantly, Willa offers practical tools for growth, healing, and developing a more secure attachment—whether you grew up in a healthy home or a deeply broken one.

Whether you're navigating marriage, dating, friendships, or family relationships, this conversation will give you hope, language, and a roadmap to healthier connection.

Resources Mentioned:

• How We Love — Milan & Kay Yerkovich: A foundational book on adult attachment styles and how childhood wounds shape marriage and communication. https://howwelove.com/shop/how-we-love-book/
• How We Love Attachment Style Quiz: A free online assessment to help you identify your attachment style and start meaningful conversations with loved ones. https://howwelove.com/love-style-quiz/
  
  

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• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
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• YouTube: www.youtube.com/@biola-cmr

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

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Alisa [00:00:00] In this episode of The Art of Relationships, we're sitting down with licensed marriage and family therapist Willa Williams. And together we're going to explore how your family of origin shapes the way you relate, connect, and love today. So our attachment styles, our expectations and relationships, even how we experience God's love are deeply rooted in our previous caregiving environment. So we're going to walk through how childhood shaped your attachment style, what happens when you don't deal with it, and then most importantly, how to start healing and building secure relationships, even if you didn't grow up with them. So stay tuned today for Art of Relationships.

Mandy [00:00:44] Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

Alisa [00:00:54] So, welcome to another episode of The Art of Relationships. I'm Alisa Grace, and today you'll notice I have a different co-host with me. This is not my beloved Chris, obviously. So, this is my very good friend and my coworker here at the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships and our licensed marriage and family therapist, Willa Williams. Hello. We're so glad to have you, Willa. I'm glad to be here. So we're talking about a really important, really interesting topic. I find that whenever we're doing conferences or lecturing in class together, we teach a class together with our husbands on healthy relationships, one of the top-rated topics, the one with a lot of questions, is this idea of family of origin. So maybe we should start out today, Willa, and just why don't we start out by telling us what that means when we talk about family of origin? What does that mean and even why is it important for us to even take a look at?

Willa [00:02:03] Well, our family of origin, refers to the family that we grew up in and that could be our biological family or if we were taken care of by another type of caregiver or adopted family or grandparents, whatever. But the family of origin is that that family unit that we grow up in. Truly is so foundational because everything that you know we learn about the world we learn within that context of that family. And so within that family that's how we learn well what's right and what's wrong and what's normal and what's not normal. And how do you do this and how should you not do this? How do we think about things? Everything comes from those waters that we are swimming in for eighteen years. Covers everything how we interpret, how we evaluate it all comes from that that family structure.

Alisa [00:02:55] So it i it I mean that's obviously really integral to who we are as adults. And you're saying plays such an important part in every aspect of our personality, our views, our opinions, our values, wh what we consider normal in a family, how we do our relationships. So y you usually make that a real mainstay in your premarital counseling. Is that right? Yes. And do you ever encounter people that don't want to explore that? And why should we? I mean, if what happens if we don't? What if we're just say, you know, I am who I am today. I'm just putting behind me the things that happened in the past, they're not important and I just wanna, you know, quit looking behind and move ahead and and just go on.

Willa [00:03:51] I I'm so glad you brought that up 'cause I wanted to mention that. It's like sometimes we like to think, Oh, I don't I don't like that group of people. I don't want to be like them, so I'm out. And we think we can get as far away and if we get away from them, then we're not going to be like them. And what we don't realize is like the expression, wherever we go, there we are. Say that again. That's really good. Whenever we go, there we are. Because we bring we bring all of that with us. We can't get away from it because it's it's integral to who we are as a person. Because growing up in that whatever again that that family dynamic, whatever that family of origin is for you, you grow up with that, that becomes an integral part of who you are as a person. And so what happens is that we, you know, nobody grows up in a perfect home, but we grow up learning how to evaluate things, how to think about things. And we we develop lenses of how we view the world. And so we may think that we're lens free or we don't have, but we're not. It's really important to take the time to begin to figure out, okay, well what lenses do I have and how do I interpret things? What happens if we don't pay attention to that? We begin to look at our relationships our in our adulthood, yeah our our marriages, our friends, our family, and we begin to look at those people through the lens from our family of origin. And so we start to interpret their behavior. We we begin to bring our stuff, our interpretations on them. So a really quick example, and it's kind of very basic. Let's say that you grew up in a home where if Dad came home late for dinner, mom would just give him such a hard time. Really harass yeah, I'll get really upset and they would get argument fights and everything and so You know you don't want that. You don't repeat that. I'm not them. I'm not gonna be like them. If you don't do the work you will be like them, but I know it'd be like them. So I'm gonna do it differently. So let's say you come home late one night for dinner and you walk in the door and you're like, Oh and your partner may may had made dinner for you and asks a very neutral question of, oh, you're you're late for dinner. Well that question is neutral. However, because you have your lenses, you interpret that. You're putting your interpretation on top of that question and you're reading it as you're late. And you begin to anticipate, I'm gonna get yelled at, I get in trouble. And so you begin to get defensive, have a defensive reaction to that, to that neutral comment. Yeah.

Alisa [00:06:35] And the other person's just go, Hey, I just made an observation that you were late. I didn't mean anything by it. Why are you jumping?

Willa [00:06:42] That's the good case scenario. What's more realistic is that person also has their lens. So maybe if anybody said a comment kind of getting upset with them, they took that as I screwed up, I messed up, they're really mad at me and I and I gotta defend myself. So then their lens gets activated and then they come back with a retort of well who do you think you are? And you're running late and you don't appreciate anything I do and then before you know it then this brouhaha has really going and people are arguing and fighting because they don't understand what's actually getting triggered for both of them.

Alisa [00:07:16] Wow. So yeah, it really it can be a case of you're arguing and fighting over something that a perceived slight that actually never really occurred. But because of that lens or that filter that we bring from our family of origin, we min we often misinterpret the other person. And we don't even realize we're doing it. Yeah. And then not only did we grow up with that, then our kids who are sitting at the dinner table listening to this, now they begin for a year lens. Oh, wow.

Willa [00:07:51] And that's how certain tendencies are passed along generationally because that we kids use that with their parents. So everybody's got something. The the key is to be willing to look at, okay, what's happening for me in these moments? Where does that come from?

Alisa [00:08:08] I love what you just said. That you said the key is to say what's happening for me. And that that presupposes that I'm willing to look at my own stuff and to say, maybe I've got something to do with this, that it's not just him or her that needs to change and fix it and then everything will be okay. But maybe I need to, you know, kind of draw a circle around myself and say, Lord, let's start with the person inside the circle. Is there is there some work you want to do in me? Some growing, some healing, maybe some rubbing off of some rough edges. But all too often, Willow, do you find, especially as a therapist, you're seeing couples all the time, you know, five days a week working with them. Is it is it more common, do you think? I would suppose it's more common that couples come in and they're saying, Hey, Willow, we're here but so that you can fix him, so you can fix her, so that we will be okay. Because I'm pretty sure it's not me. Yeah. But you're saying for all of us, no matter what's going on, it's always us. We always have a part in it. A part in it. Whether it's 90% or five percent. We all have a part we can be responsible for. Because nobody's perfect. And so coming in with an attitude of being willing to look at your own stuff. What can I change? What can I do? Yes. Okay. So oftentimes in it when we're talking about family of origin and we're reading about that statement about it, something comes up about what we call the four attachment styles. What does that mean? And what does that have to do with our family of origin? What kind of walk us through that?

Willa [00:09:53] So I use a lot of of my information I get from the book How We Love by Mylan and Kay Yorkovets. It's a great resource. Mylan and Kay.

Alisa [00:10:02] Yerkovich. Yerkovich. Okay. And we will link to that in our show notes. That it it's a great resource. I'm sorry, keep going.

Willa [00:10:09] And so they have a I I like to use their terminology, I think it's very helpful. But they talk about there are ba there are s four different attachment styles, emotional attachment styles that we have based on what we grew up with in our family of origin. So obviously the the best is the secure attachment. That's when parents are emotionally available to their children. They talk about feelings, they empathize, they validate, they also set good boundaries so that you know the kids not just feel things but begin to work with their emotions in a positive way. And then the a a child that grows up with that grows up to be have good self-confidence. They they recognize they have good self-worth and as do other people. It's not like I'm better than everybody. It's like everybody's got worth and so they interact well with their peers. I mean they're not perfect of course but they play well with they play well with others, yes. And then in their adult relationships, they're able to have a healthy relationship where there is connectedness without controlling or without distancing. They allow their partner to be who they are. They collaborate well they have a good deep friendship. And so their marriage is always work, but it's a little less work because they have a good secure attachment. Good point. That's you know we we strive for that That's that's the goal. And not perfection, but secure. There are other parents who maybe they themselves are not in touch with their emotions very much. They don't talk about feelings. They don't like the touchy feely kind of thing. They're kind of like, you know, just take care of it. Process emotions and they're much more focused on actions, behaviors. And so with their children, they raise their children to be very self sufficient. They that is a a very high value for them. So when you're w you know, you hear that, well stop crying or suck it up, you know, it's over

Alisa [00:12:07] I'll give you something to cry about.

Willa [00:12:08] Yes, I read.

Alisa [00:12:09] I read that one. Mm-hmm.

Willa [00:12:11] Me too. Yeah. But y the children's emotions are not really processed or talked about or dealt with. They're kind of just told, Well get over it and feelings are you know, don't don't base yourself in feelings that that's nothing. You know, be strong, don't cry. And so these kids learn to just kind of pull in. They don't really process emotion, they don't and it's very hard for them to be empathetic with others because they don't know what they themselves are feeling. So they have a hard time he being empathetic with other people are feeling. Yeah. And then in adult relationships, these people I like to describe them they're very self contained. They don't need What in a relationship. They also don't share a lot. They don't really process emotion and share emotions because they may not even know what they are because they haven't talked about them for so long. Mm-hmm. And so what attachment is that one called? Yeah, it's called the avoider. Thank you. That's the avoider attachment where they avoid emotions. Mm-hmm. And so it's they do the the partner to an avoidant attachment person may feel like, well, do they don't really even need me in this marriage? I mean, it's like we don't really connect, we don't really talk about emotional things, work you know, roommate situation can come out of that. I remember Kay Yerkovich in the book How We Love talked about she was an avoider and when she actually suffered a miscarriage and how she processed it is she she went to a hotel by herself, locked herself in the room for three days, cried, and then came home and said, I'm fine. Wow. And so she'd even process it with her husband. That's a classic avoider, just not even involving anybody else in the process of emotion. So it's really hard to feel close to an avoider because they don't really it's not that they don't want to, they just don't have the resources because they've had that turned off for so long. Wow. So that's an avoider.

Alisa [00:13:53] Would that would that be akin to someone that is emo emotionally immature? Would you ever use that phrase? Someone that doesn't understand emotions, can't talk about 'em. And so they avoid 'em?

Willa [00:14:07] Yeah, I think it would fit there and I but I think you can also be emotionally mature as the other types as well. So the secure would be more emotionally mature. Mature.

Speaker 4 [00:14:16] Mm-hmm.

Willa [00:14:18] So you have the mature the secure, you have the avoider, then you have the pleaser, which is a person who deals with a lot of anxiety, they they like to please, to to gain attention. So people that are raised in a a home to become a pleaser, these parents have a lot of anxiety about being parents. They like to hover. They don't like their child to have to suffer any discomfort, so they make it easy for them, or they don't let them take risks because you might get hurt. When they play games that let the child win, you know, 'cause they want them to be sad. Oh so they're equipped to co come in and rescue. And so the child is not taught how to handle difficult emotions. They're not taught how to take risks and to venture out because they're not allowed to, because the parent has a lot of anxiety. The parent is actually trying to manage and and work through their own anxiety through their child.

Alisa [00:15:12] That is so interesting. That I mean the the first thing that came to mind as you're talking about that is our practice, especially when our kids are on teams as children, is the participation trophy. Because we want to protect our kid that didn't make the home run, that isn't the best on the team, from feeling left out or like they're not worthy to be on the team. Is that is is that a kind?

Willa [00:15:42] It could be. I mean, I'm all for making kids feel good about themselves, right? And that they do have value. But you also have value if you didn't get the home run, you still have value. You know, the fact that you're on you are committed and you're on the team and you're getting to know people and you showed up and you were responsible. That also means you're I love some really good qualities. So you don't have to get the you know, the trophy to be worth something. But all that to say these these parents have a lot of anxiety and so instead of processing their own anxiety, they try to manage it through their kids. So they keep the kids safe, like they bubble wrap the kid. You know, they don't want them to go on overnights or they don't want them to ride their bike alone or go you know, whatever that is. Because the parents are afraid. Right. And then the kid absorbs that because that's what we do. That's part of their lens. That's what they absorb. And so they, as a child, then they're they're maybe they're they're really shy or timid or they're afraid to take risks or they're they don't, you know, they're they're home by I mean, some people are home biased because they have more introverts, but they don't they don't really put themselves out there and they don't know how to process difficult things because they kind of been shielded from that by their parents. So then growing up, these people that are pleasers, they kind of feel responsible for the emotional thermostat in the family. Growing up too, they can be also like caretakers. Like if mom is upset, then they feel like they have to plea they want to make sure that she feels okay. So then they they kind of please mom. They don't want them to feel or they, you know, they're they are the caretaker for the family. So they're they're the ones kind of get everybody else in line and they kind of just they absorb all of that, but they don't process their own emotions. Right. So then in an in a committed relationship, in a marriage, even in a friendships, these people they please to get others approval, to be liked. So it's not even about them, it's about their behavior. And this is also where them Just like the parents did, managing their their own anxiety this way rather than actually processing the anxiety within themselves. It's like, Well, if I if I get that person to like me then I'm okay. And then they the pleasing behavior make that person like me to keep 'em close. Yeah.

Alisa [00:17:40] Like do you have like a an example of how like maybe someone you've worked with or or that you've heard about?

Willa [00:17:49] So pleasers, they they can do the very same action that someone else will do, but with the pleaser, you sense this they want something for it. Like they're they're not doing it just out of the goodness of their heart. It's like they're trying to get you to like them. Like I've had somebody I've had somebody bring me flowers, it was an unspontaneous thing. It's like, oh, that's so thoughtful, thank you. And somebody else bring me flowers, and it was kind of like it just it had an ickiness to it.

Alisa [00:18:15] There's a motivational difference.

Willa [00:18:16] Kinda felt like okay, they're doing this 'cause they want to be liked. And and people sense that. You don't even know what you're sensing. It's kinda like, it doesn't feel like it's a healthy gift. It's not a free gift. There's there's some strings attached to that. Very interesting. Okay. And so that's the people pleaser. That's the pleaser. So you had the secure, you had the avoider, you had the pleaser. And the last one's what they call the vacillator. That could also be, I think, fearful dismissive is another name for it. But people that are vacillators, they're raised in a home. Their parents are really wounded. And so the parents really have struggled parenting. And so the message the child gets is, Listen, be it be available, be it can when I need you, but then when I'm not available when I don't feel like doing it, then you take care of yourself. So there's sometimes the parent is great, is available in there and then they can turn on the dime, something happens, they all of a sudden get moody, they get upset, anxious, whatever, and then they shut down and then then they're unavailable to the kid, the child. So they have very conflicting messages would you know, they they the message come click, come close, be near, I want you. Now go away and take care of yourself 'cause I don't. I d I don't want I don't want to deal with you right now, take care of yourself. So these children grow up really feeling this push pull with their parents. There's no consistency or predictability. There's no consistency, no stability, no in you know, no consistency, no no unconditional positive, you know, affirmation. It's like it's just I gotta kinda figure out what mood mom's in today and then I have to act accordingly. And so it's always something's gonna happen. Even if it's going great. Yeah. The the other thing is. For these people That to me that's also the parents' woundedness just really is passed on to the child. Yeah. So then they grow up in their relationships they have a very hard time being consistent and being able to relax and accept 'cause they're always feeling like, okay, well you're maybe close for now, so okay, but when's the other shoe gonna drop? So if the partner doesn't mean what nice for them, it's like they can accept it, but oh no. Well, but still when I can't relax. I can't relax. I can't just enjoy it because

Alisa [00:20:31] Because it's not always going to be that way.

Willa [00:20:34] And then and they may be doing some pleasing to keep people close, but it's it feels manipulative. But then, because that feels so good, 'cause it they didn't get that growing up, but then they have very high expectations about that. So then the minute that something else happens that's not so great, maybe there's a just a little disagreement or misunderstanding, they go the complete opposite, 'cause they think, Well now the other shoe has dropped, now they're out, I'm by myself. So then they get angry and then they push the other person away, 'cause you're gonna hurt me, so I'm gonna I'm gonna get you rid of you before you hurt me more. So within there's this push and pull of I want you close but then the closest But I'm scared to So then they push you away.

Alisa [00:21:13] So y how often do you have couples where where you have one person is one attachment style and the other one is another attachment style. Are there any attachment styles besides the obvious secure to secure that would be r ideal? But how do those work when you have different attachment styles?

Willa [00:21:35] Yeah. So there are different different people get together for different reasons. And yeah, I I I knew didn't just say too. It's not like we have one attachment style and that's it. Mm-hmm. So like for me personally, I had a very secure attachment with my dad. With my mom, it was more of a pleaser with her. So you know, it's not like you you have one thing and then that's it. It it varies. Different people come together for different reasons. So a very common one is actually when a an avoider marries a pleaser. And how that plays out is they kinda get to get get to know each other. Well, the avoider grew up not having been paid attention to emotionally. Well, that's what a pleaser they excel in that. So they start to pay attention to them and the avoider likes it. It feels good. And then the pleaser gets strokes because, oh, they're really happy with me and I'm making them I'm able to make them happy and this feels so good. So this so it works well for a while. The problem then comes in down the road, after people get married sometimes. The pleaser thinks that the em the avoider is gonna kinda change and be more emotionally available. Well, the avoider doesn't. They still continue to have that avoidant style. And then the pleaser's like, well, why aren't you coming closer? And now I'm not you're not liking me as much. And then they try harder. They do more things. And then there's that that ickiness factor that comes in because they're they're doing something. It feels manipulative to the avoider. And they don't have the capacity to be aware of emotions. So then they back off or shut down even more. And then you have this we call a pursue withdrawal cycle where the pleaser keeps coming and coming. And the other person feels smothered. I need you to back off. I don't want this. And then they they can't connect.

Alisa [00:23:21] So if can you ever change your attachment style? Can can you make progress?

Willa [00:23:27] In that area? Absolutely can. It just it takes several things. It takes first off Well, I always like to say this in therapy but even in our class we talk about this. The most important thing I think to start off first is for us who who love Jesus, our believers, we need to anchor ourselves in who we are in Christ.

Alisa [00:23:48] Like what does that mean? What does that practically sound like or look like?

Willa [00:23:51] That is foundational to know I am okay. I am loved. I'm accepted. I have my stuff to work on. Yeah. But Jesus loves me and He sees all that stuff and still loves me and He wants to heal me. And He's never gonna leave me. He will be with me in this hard work in this process. And so that is where we get our anchor. And that's a thing that allows us to begin to do the really hard work. Because if we're not anchored, we begin to feel like we lose our footing and that I'm never gonna change and I can't get this and then I and they don't like me and they don't and I'm l I'm not lovable. But when you're anchored in who you are in Christ, He does love you. You are lovable. He will help you with this process. And so that gives us the strength and the ability to begin to do this hard work. And then we have to start looking at okay, how was I raised? Begin to look at mom and dad and their what their marriage was like and how do I see what do I replicate from that? What are my interpretations? What are my lenses? How do I interpret this benign comment? Why why do I take that so personally? Why do I think that I'm getting in trouble now? Yeah. Where does that come from? Oh, 'cause that's what happened with mom. And then the bow and then the beginning to share. Share that descriptively, not defensively. Share that descriptively with your partner. Like what would that sound like? So instead of saying, Well, you always let me feel like you're mad at me. You always get m upset when I, you know, you say, you know what I realized? My mom always got upset with me when I didn't understand something. And so when you don't understand something, I immediately go to the to thinking that you're mad at me. And I struggle with that. So wow. So that's really different. That sounds really different. I want to check that out with you. Are you upset with me? Because that's how I'm taking it. That's my interpretation, but I know that could be wrong because I have a lens. So help me understand. This is what I'm feeling. I'm feeling you're upset with me. Is that accurate? Is that not accurate? Mm-hmm. And then you can talk about it rather than getting into a fight. Wow. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Alisa [00:25:56] So it l let me see this little and put in Okay, so you invite you can change. You're saying it is possible to change. Inviting the Lord into that space. Lord, why you know, help me to be aware of of that attachment style that maybe isn't the most healthy. And what healing do you want to bring to it? Any other steps that people could take to to bring healing to those less positive attachment styles, the less beneficial maybe attachment styles.

Willa [00:26:30] There are some very practical things as far as especially for the vasculators, something to remember is it's never as perfect as it seems it is and it's never as terrible as it seems it is. 'Cause the vascular they go that back and forth. It's all extreme or it's all bad. And you you wanna remember, okay, it's not all as terrible as I think it is. And they're not as perfect as I think they are. You know, and so to begin to recognize Just because we have a disagreement doesn't mean something is terribly wrong or that they're mad at me or that they're you know I also think it's important to I tell people all the time, be descriptive. Mm-hmm. What what I mean by that is talk about this is what's happening for me. This is what's getting triggered inside for me. Mm-hmm. And so I just want to share this with you so you know what's happening for me. 'Cause if we don't do that, it comes out, the other person takes it personally, they think you know and they feel attacked. They feel or or we do blame. We either blame or we shut down. And so this is more of nope, I can't do either one because those aren't helpful. Yeah. Maybe in the moment we do need to kinda just take a break. 'Cause if we're flooded, if we're really activated, you know, we're we're amped up.

Alisa [00:27:38] So you can call a timeout.

Willa [00:27:42] Tap back in. Yes. You can't you can't have a good conversation when you're amped up. That's just physiologically impossible. So take a time out, let the person know. Don't just leave. Let them know you're taking a timeout, go calm down, and then come back and say, I really do want to talk this through with you. And so I want to describe to you this is what's happening for me. I love that. On the other side of that, when the your partner does that, you say, Okay, I really want to listen. And your job is to listen non defensively, which comes the second point I want to make, is don't take it personal. Don't take it personal. What you want to hold on to is the fact they're just trying to describe their own internal experience to you. So this is separate from you. You don't need to take it personal. And you want to be very curious. Rather than getting defensive or upset or interpreting with your own lens, can if you can set that aside and just think, you know what, I don't need to take this personal and I'm gonna be curious about this. And tell them, I really do want to understand this better. Can you help me understand? You said this. Help me understand that better. Where does that come from? What do you mean by that? How that how do you live that out? And be curious with the details. Can you tell me more about Can tell me more about this? I really want to understand. And the other thing I do want to say then is by just listening to your partner, that does not mean you agree. You don't have to agree. You don't have to agree. So you're descriptive, you listen non-defensively. So how do you respond?

Alisa [00:29:06] When you don't necessarily agree.

Willa [00:29:08] You can say something like, you know what, I'm I'm get be descriptive. Describe what's going on. I'm having a hard time 'cause there's prime I'm really fighting, wanting to take that personal and yet I know that it's not. Mm-hmm. So I might need of just a couple of minutes to kinda settle down and then I want to come back to it and I wanna understand. So let's let's talk a bit more about and ask you some more questions or think through more and tell me more about that. Right now I need a little break. Yeah. 'Cause I'm struggling. But I do want to understand it. I'm gonna come back and try.

Alisa [00:29:35] You know, Will, that's such an important point about not taking it personally. You know, Chris and I have been married thirty eight years. And really it probably took us or I should say took me, I would say to about year fifteen and that sounds horrible. But it probably took us to about year fifteen for me to get to that point of understanding that when if he was short with me about something if he you know said something a little snippy that I didn't have to retreat into that defensive position that oh wait a second maybe it's not really about me maybe I didn't do some I might and if I did I want to be open to hearing that but maybe it's not all about me something I've done and so I learned to push the pause button when I was starting to f get that that gut feeling of I need to run and hide and avoid. Yeah I'm avoider and a people pleaser and so instead of trying to immediately fix that or change something because it's my fault I learned to say wow it you know it's it it sounds like you're feeling very stressed about something. Is is there something that I've done that has upset you or hurt your feelings or or made you feel angry because it it sounds to me like you're feeling very stressed. Is there something else going on or is there something I need to fix? Right. And so I gave that gave him the out of being able to say no I sorry it's not you at all or maybe it was and there was something that I needed to pay attention to and take ownership of but it did more often than not I found it's really it wasn't amazing. No, it's like something that happened at work That he's sitting back there ruminating on, upset about, processing through, and I just happened to step in and make a comment or ask about something, and he was short. Not because I did something wrong, but because he's upset about something at work. So it really became an opportunity in my mind once I began began to be aware of not taking that so personal that it wasn't always me. It really became an opportunity for the Lord to use me as that conduit of grace that that the Lord could pour into me through me and extend to Chris and to be an an opportunity to say, Well, tell me about what's going on at work. What happened at work? And I could listen and I could validate his perspective. You know, validation is another one of those very important relationship skills of oh my gosh, that person said that to you. That would have ticked me off too. Oh my gosh, that would have upset me. That would have hurt my feelings too. I would have felt that way. Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry that that the they said that to you. That really wasn't very fair, was it? And then now we're allies instead of being adversaries. The chance to really grow your relationship we have been any of the fight. We're teammates instead of adversaries, but it took me. Taking that position on my own part of not taking it so personal. That was a game changer.

Willa [00:33:12] That's very, very important.

Alisa [00:33:13] Yeah. And yeah.

Speaker 5 [00:33:20] Hey, did you know that money is the number one source of conflicted marriage, Lisa? I know that

Alisa [00:33:26] I know it is. Studies show that nearly one in three couples say finances cause the most stress in their relationship.

Speaker 5 [00:33:32] Yeah, and for us unity and clarity around this issue is really key and that's why I love the help we've been getting from Colby Gilmore and Ron Blue Trust.

Alisa [00:33:42] Boy, I love what that they really take the biblical concepts of money and to financial planning and they serve couples at all income levels, whether you only have a little money or you have a lot. It doesn't matter. They're there on your team. And they're not selling products either. I love that. Their only goal is to help you steward your resources.

Chris [00:34:05] Wisely. Yeah, and as pool people we've experienced valuable advice.

Alisa [00:34:10] Not anymore, 'cause there are financial plans.

Chris [00:34:13] Is a real blessing. So you'll find the details in all the show notes, Lisa.

Alisa [00:34:18] Yeah, so if you want more peace and unity in your finances, we highly recommend Colby Gilmore at Ronald Blue Trust. Check him out.

Willa [00:34:31] Yeah, I think so I think w what what people can do, you know, b practical things and even have a little you know, write it on a little piece of paper that you keep and you know it in your purse or wall or whatever, but when you get upset, think, okay, stop and breathe. Don't take it personal, be curious. I love that. Be curious and ask questions. And then again, because we're anchored in who we are in Christ, if it is something that they are upset about that then you can be like, Okay, I didn't know and so thank you for telling me. I I'm I'm glad to be aware of that. I can work on that now. That's good. Then it doesn't overwhelm you.

Alisa [00:35:04] That that's a huge place to get to when you can respond that way. I think one thing that has really helped me in a practical level is memorizing and praying through James one nineteen. Lordy, Lordy, Lord, help me Jesus, cause I'm about to get really ticked at this man. Yes. You know, if he's short with me, or you know, so or even if it's something that I that I need to take account for, like what you just said. That's hard. That's always been really hard for me to do. And actually I've learned by hearing Chris do it with me. I've learned he role modeled for me how to take responsibility for that. But part of that journey for me was was memorizing James 1 19. Let us be quick to listen, slow to get angry. And what I'm gonna be li what is it? So to speak and slow to speak. Slow to speak, quick to listen, slow to get angry. Yes, okay. See, I need to revisit that verse, obviously, because that that is not on the tip of my tongue the way it should. Quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to get angry. And I I began just praying that as he's sharing, I'm listening and I'm also praying at the same time. Lord, this is really hard. What a resource we have. I think yes. Yes. Because it's a God is always at work in you, giving you the desire to do his will, which is be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to get angry, and the power to do it. He just doesn't give us the expectation, this is what I want you to do, and leave us up to our own devices. But he then gives us the power, the ability to do it. And so when I cooperate, when I choose to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and say, Lord, I want to be quick to listen, slow to slow to speak, slow to get angry, but I'm feeling really attacked right now. Right. I'm feeling I can feel it my that just rising and I'm getting flooded. And Lord, I need you to help me. I need you to help me exercise self control and I need you to help me be a good listener. And to will you love Chris through me at this moment? Because I'm not feeling very loving, if I'm honestly.

Willa [00:37:25] And I think it's okay to recognize, you know what, that that's that happens. That's honest. That's just honest. That happens. And and we are human beings. We are fallen creatures. So of course that's gonna happen. I do wanna say one thing or a couple of things too though. This is you know, we like things instantaneously in our culture, right? Yeah. This is not gonna be instantaneous. Yeah. This is a process. I like to tell people all the time, when you see a happy, healthy marriage, you're not looking at luck or magic. You're looking at a lot of hard work. And so to work on these attachment style issues Be patient with yourself. It's gonna take some time. And I think it's helpful to redefine success. Because success is not when I finally get over here where I'm much more secure than anxious. I'm much more secure than the destination. It's not the destination. Here's the a better definite definition of success. Am I a little bit at this, a little bit better at this today than I was last week? And if I'm a little bit better, that's a success. And then those successes motivate you and encourage you and keep you moving forward.

Alisa [00:38:32] I love that. You know, it's like having exercising a muscle. Right. The more you do it, then the more that ingrains that muscle memory, that relationship muscle memory, so that it becomes more normal and it becomes your more your more quick your go to response. But it does, it takes time. Takes time. You're not gonna go out on the the the basketball court and just instantly shoot a three pointer every time. You gotta practice, you gotta set up, you gotta practice, practice, practice. And then when you're in the middle of the game in the heat of the moment, you don't even have to think about it. You just you know where to plant your feet, how to set your hands, and how to do the follow through, right? I say that like I know anything about basketball. I know nothing about basketball. I'm just glad I didn't mention a bat or the goal line or something.

Speaker 4 [00:39:23] Oh.

Alisa [00:39:23] But then it's that whole idea of the more you practice it, the more you surrender y yourself to the work of the Holy Spirit, the more he takes you through that process. He grows you to do that. Gives you what you need when you need it.

Willa [00:39:38] And I think too it's also important to remember, you know, some of us we feel like Well, I'm doing this and and I'm I'm gonna lose out. You're not losing out. Yeah. This is so good for you. Even if you work with this person, this is still good interpersonal health growth that you need to be doing. So you're not giving up, you're not giving and you're not losing by working on these things. It really helps you, it helps your partner, it helps you manage.

Alisa [00:40:03] And you know, and thinking through that idea that it's a process, it's a journey. It's a journey that you're on is is recognizing that for your partner too. Absolutely. So those those times that you see them making the effort, it might not be perfect, it might not be exactly the way you need it to be or were hoping it to be, but that you actually see them making progress to be able to to recognize that, notice it, and then call them out and express appreciation for it. Because when you show appreciation to somebody, there is no limit to what they may be willing to do. Yeah, they because they notice they appreciate that you notice the effort. Like it you know, it if since Chris's cancer journey, one of the things that his struggles and just living with in the day-to-day is one of the the chemotherapy medications led to what they call peripheral neuropathy. In other words, it damaged the nerves front in in the periphery, his hands, his arms, his feet, his legs. And some of that will never come back. And so as a result, he can't really feel his feet. So that doesn't make for really safe driving conditions. And so one of the the journeys for him has been allowing me to drive. And it took us a while to get to that point where he was able to relinquish that and be okay with that. And I and that was totally a journey in and of itself. But one of the things as a result, when he's sitting in the passenger seat and it for a while the Abbey, it was just really bad about oh, Louis, there you know, change lanes right here. Oh, turn here. Oh, watch out for that car. Why don't you let that car get in front of you? You know, if you go this way, you know, and I'm sitting there driving going, Oh I've been driving for forty five years without you. Thank you very much. I've done fine. You can sit there and be quiet. You know, and so I get upset and then he's upset and it and it just was not going well. And then as we began to talk about it and use that descriptive language and I shared with him how this really does bother me and I'm trying not to let it, but I need to let you know that it does. Can you help me with that? And God bless that man. He has worked really hard to get to the point where he doesn't correct my driving or try as much. As much, yeah. As much as an improvement. It is an improvement. And I've noticed that when he does do it, he catches himself now. He's like, Oh, you might want to let that car in, but hey, you know what? You're the one driving. You can do whatever you want. Yeah. And so now he's making progress and I can see that and and I've tried to be good about expressing to him, you know, I notice that it that's not easy to do that. It's hard for me to do that in the car with somebody else to restrain my comments. But I notice that you catch yourself more often and that you're really working on that and trying. And I just want you to know I really I pre A plus for effort. Thank you for being willing to try and and I see you improve in that area. Yeah. But man, it is a journey. It's a journey. It's a grace for ourselves and grace for the other person.

Willa [00:43:16] And again, to kinda go back to the attachment style thing, what could be really helpful is as a couple that you guys both do that like the quiz. There's a if you go to How We Love.com and there are many quizzes out there too, but I I I like to use theirs. You learn your attachment style and then you share that with each other. So that and then you begin to share. I can see where that came from in my family. We talked and so you start talking about more in depth what you're realizing, we did it that way in my family. And I realized the message I got from that was XYZ. I can't have needs, or I shouldn't get upset, or I shouldn't talk about my emotions. And now I realize that comes into play here. Wow. And the more you share that descriptively with each other, the more you are building trust and emotional connectedness and and teamwork. And now and it's easier to get not be defensive, it's easier to give the benefit of the doubt, it's easier to be curious, and it moves your your relationship forward, even as you're doing in the midst of the of the work doing the work.

Alisa [00:44:15] You know that that makes me think going back to what we talked about our parents and you know the what establ help what helped us for good or for bad establish that lens or that filter the the we're our through that attachment style. What's the journey that you go through with your own parents? When you when you take that test, let's say you sat down, you did the quiz, and you're like, Oh my gosh, I'm such a people pleaser. I saw my mom did this, she did A, B, and C, my dad did this, he was this and that. Oh my gosh, if not for them, I'd be perfect. I would be perfect and I would be the perfect wife. You know, there's a there's probably that come to Jesus moment of the grace that we extend to ourselves, the grace we extend to our spouse. Talk about that the need for that in in dealing with our parents. When we come to the realization, I didn't have nobody has the perfect childhood. You said that.

Willa [00:45:17] No no perfect, no perfect.

Alisa [00:45:19] Right. And th there's some things that our parents did well and maybe some that they didn't do so well. But as you come to the understanding of what that is and you begin to identify the impact and maybe there's real trauma there for some people. But even if the even if it's just, wow, this wasn't this wasn't great. How do we process that? How do we deal with that with our parents? Yeah in a healthy way.

Willa [00:45:44] In a healthy way. Absolutely. I love that question.

Alisa [00:45:47] Do you ever confront your parent and say, you know, this is how you raised me and now this is how it's impacting me. But I'm working on forgiving you. Wow, that's like bang, bing, bing, bing, but and then put a bandage on where you just beat 'em up. Right. How do you do that in a r in a really healthy way?

Willa [00:46:05] Again, I love this is a great question because here's the thing. We need to have compassion for our parents 'cause maybe we need to understand, you know, their parents. Understand backstory. Backstory. What there's always a backstory. Right. What w how was how was the home that they were raised in? What were the lenses that they received? When you understand your grandparents, maybe that helps make a lot more sense of why your parents are the way they are. So understanding it doesn't mean that it's okay, but it gives us an A deeper ability to have more compassion for them and empathy for them. And I think it also comes down to forgiveness. I like to tell people, you know, if we feel like, okay, my parents, they were terrible, I don't want to be like them, so I'm going over here. If we don't work at forgiving them, now forgiving does not mean forgetting, because we can't. Forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation, it's separate. But for if we work to forgive them and release them to the Lord and our hurt to the Lord, if we don't do that, it's kind of like we're running in this direction, and somehow we kind of loop right back around and we end up doing some of those very same things with our kids. God gone. Because we haven't processed it. Yeah. And we haven't forgiven. So again, forgiving does not mean you're saying it's okay, but you forgive them because you recognize what they've been through, what they were given. And then you you ha set some healthy boundaries with them if you need to, but you you do work towards forgiveness of them and and understanding this is what they had, this is what they all they knew, this is what they gave me. And I'm grateful that I can look at what I've received and I can now do it differently with the help of the Lord. Mm-hmm. And I know it's very it's a it's a common thing these days for a lot of people to to relationship with her parents. Yeah.

Alisa [00:48:01] It's a interesting trend. It's a newer trend. And w what's it that of it seems like The Gen X. Yeah. Some millennials of cutting off contact with their parents. And oftentimes the parents they don't even know why.

Willa [00:48:17] That was funny, I was just reading an article, I'm a member of Camped, which is California Association of Marriage Family Therapists. They had their newsletter and they just came out with an article about that, talking about how this has really come up in the age with social media. Oh because people post and other people Oh well you should just get away from you know and and they're using they're throwing around terms about you know narcissists and you know borderline personality using all these terms without having the actual background or context and so people are being told you should just get a get away from your parents. Just you leave 'em. And that has really had a had a impact on what people are doing. And it's become a very dangerous trend because it's actually can be very harmful. Now I wanna do want to say if of course if you are unsafe, if there's any abuse going on, no, you should not be in a relationship with that person. Any addictions. But sometimes we confuse relationship wants with relationship needs.

Alisa [00:49:19] Ooh. Oh that's a interesting perspective. Talk a talk a little bit about that.

Willa [00:49:24] So a relationship need is yeah, we do need to be safe. We do need to, you know Have emotional safety. A a want, a relational want is I want my parents to always agree with my decisions. Oh. Well they may not. If you get upset because he's not agreeing with you, that this that's not a reason to cut off your relationship with them. In fact, I al that's avoidance to me. And avoidance is never a good option. It's never a healthy alternative. And so you need to think through okay, why am I getting upset with my parents? What's happening for me? And then try to talk with them about it. And if you need I mean the pa again, like you mentioned, the parents may not even know. But if you go and talk with them, then you can work it through. Yeah. In this article, they were saying how in this age, now more than ever, we need support. We need connection. And when we cut off our family. We're losing a major avenue of support. These are people who raised you, who love you, who care deeply for you. And you may not not always agree. But they do that and they are there for you. Again, depending on the family, but majority of parents, they're there. And when you cut that off, you lose that support. And then it also ripples out because then maybe other family members feel like they have to take sides. And then it can really divide up a family. And so you're losing a major source of stability of social commodity that we need in this time. And so it's really important to have that discussion. Don't avoid. Go and talk with them. And then and and then learn how to soothe yourself too. If if if it is hard being with your parents, remind yourself they don't have to agree with me. Just don't have a valid point. I can accept that they have a point, but I may may think differently. And then you can ask them, you know what? This visit, I really would not prefer to if we don't not talk about that, because let's just agree to disagree. And let's just have a good time together. And set that expectation and let them know that and then let them work with you. If you really do need to have some space, set boundaries, not just cut them off. You know, maybe for a while there's just texting, or maybe there's a visit for one hour and that's it. But make an effort to still maintain some measure of contact because you need that, they need that, you need the support. And you and and you can you can still advocate for yourself while working it out with them.

Alisa [00:51:52] That's really great. Really great. Gosh, well I feel like we could just talk to us. I know. And in any one of these perspectives of it, we could do a deep dive. And, you know, like we talked about perspective taking, validation, listening, forgiving. Those could all be separate podcasts and probably are, you know, if we go back through our our website. Any other final thoughts that you want to share about the importance of family origin? What anything else?

Willa [00:52:25] It is it is part of who you are. And so you want to embrace it and then learn and be and be humble and ready to grow and change and make the changes. Because you know what maybe someday you'll be in the hot seat and you'll be a parent. And you want to pass on good things and you want to be able to handle and accept the things that maybe you pass on that aren't so great. Be humble enough to be yeah, you're right. I can see I could have done that differently. Yeah. So people can move forward because they're never gonna be perfect, but we can move forward in health.

Alisa [00:52:54] I love that. Gosh. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for thanks for being with me today. And love that you are here with us at the Center for Marriage and Relationships. And we just want to invite you to check out the show notes because we'll have links to the book that you talked about, How We Love, by the Yerkoviches. Gosh, spell that one. So we'll have that and a couple of other things that you mentioned, maybe the the quiz for the attachment style, so you can figure out the one that you are. And and then begin having some really important in-depth conversations with those that are your loved ones. So thanks again. Yes, it is definitely worth the effort. So thanks for joining us on this episode of the Art of Relationships. Check out our website at cmr.biola.edu and we will see you next time.

Mandy [00:53:48] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.