In this episode, Chris and Alisa Grace explore what it really means to date well—approaching relationships with intentionality, emotional health, and biblical wisdom. They discuss the purpose of dating, the importance of aligning your faith, assessing red and green flags, and the role of spiritual discernment and emotional maturity in building healthy connections. You’ll also hear practical tips on navigating compatibility, understanding personality traits, and seeking input from trusted community members. Whether you're single, newly dating, or looking to strengthen your approach to relationships, this episode offers valuable, no-fluff guidance to help you date in a way that honors God, protects your heart, and sets the stage for a healthy future.

Resources Mentioned:

• Gary Thomas – Sacred Marriage – A book exploring how marriage is designed to make us holy more than happy. https://www.garythomas.com/sacred-marriage/
• Big Five Personality Test – A research-backed tool for understanding key personality traits in yourself and others. https://www.outofservice.com/bigfive
• The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse – Gottman Institute resource on the four destructive communication patterns to watch for in relationships. https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-four-horsemen-recognizing-criticism-contempt-defensiveness-and-stonewalling/
  

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• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: www.youtube.com/@biola-cmr

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

Alisa [00:00:00] In this episode of the Art of Relationships, we're diving into Dating 101. So it's a no-fluff guide for how to date well in a way that honors God, protects your heart, and sets the foundation for a healthy future relationship. So whether it's that first date, assessing red and green flags, we'll unpack what looks like to approach dating with intentionality, emotional health, and biblical wisdom.

Mandy [00:00:28] Welcome to The Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, let's get right into it.

Chris [00:00:38] Lisa, welcome to another Art in Relationship podcast.

Alisa [00:00:41] And yes, good to be here with you.

Chris [00:00:43] Yeah, good to be with the y'all. Thanks for the introduction there, Mandy. And so Lisa, let's dive right into the topic. I think probably the biggest question after marriage we get is about dating. Yeah. How to date well. And Lisa, tell me about this confusing kind of times we're in when it comes to dating. Every culture. Has dating issues, in my opinion. Some just kind of circumvent it and just go, okay, we're just gonna arrange marriages. No dating, right?

Alisa [00:01:20] Oh gosh, can you imagine going back to that? That frightens me because I think about who my mom thought was cute, you know, like when I was in high school or college. At least I think you had a date so and so, and there's like, oh, there's no way. So thank God that we don't have, like literally thank God we don't have arranged marriages.

Chris [00:01:40] Not where we're at right now. We did try to do that with our children and it didn't work out very well. They actually, it was fun to think about, but I don't want to make that decision.

Alisa [00:01:53] No, no, we let the Lord make that decision and actually the Lord did really well. We have awesome in-law kids.

Chris [00:02:01] Right, we're grateful. But what does make it confusing, I think, a little bit in this culture is people kind of can go on different extremes, right? Where let's say they are deciding today, they can find themselves in a perpetual situationship, right? They're just kind of with somebody, and all of a sudden four or five years go by, and they really haven't clarified much or had any purpose in it.

Alisa [00:02:30] Or serial dating where it's just one person after another after another after another without much thought to it.

Chris [00:02:39] What's another guy and then they have those that are almost dating as if it's like a mini marriage

Alisa [00:02:44] Yeah, we're dating and unconditional love and how do I, you know, love my boyfriend or girlfriend, you, know, with, with date commitment and, and yeah, it's just, it s too serious, too quick. Yeah, without real clarity of, of where they're going maybe.

Chris [00:03:02] Do you think people, do you think we need to start the whole conversation about the purpose of dating? What do you? I mean, what is the purpose, right? Well, I don't want to be alone. I want to hang out with somebody. I don t want to spend my weekends, you know, with my friends again or in a room by myself. I'd rather, you know, I think people would say, have somebody that I can enjoy life with. But That's not really the purpose just to make you happy, right? It's not the purpose, just to mean not being alone. What is the purpose? I mean, what would you say if someone asked you, what's the purpose of dating?

Alisa [00:03:42] Well, you know, Gary Thomas has a really famous saying about marriage, that the purpose of marriage is not to make us happy, right, but to make is holy. And so I would go that next logical step is that you take a step backwards from that. I believe, and I would say our center, what we would teach is that dating is not to make us happy, but to make us holy, to draw us. And the person we're dating closer to Christ, as we get to know a person, we get know ourselves better. We get to kind of have a mirror held up to us a little bit to see where's our rough edges. What am I also to clarify, what am I looking for in a long-term commitment and marriage partner? And is this relationship that I'm in, is it drawing me closer to Chris?

Chris [00:04:37] Yeah, that's good. You know, I I wasn't a Christian when I first started dating and and then in college after I became a Christian I remember thinking that Okay I get this dating is supposed to do something more than just you know, kind of what we were talking about. It's supposed to um I guess prepare you or set you up or see those like you said rough edges, right and But it's also to do something else spiritually, right? It's to grow you and to figure out, um, what you, what you're like almost. And I remember learning early on, like what, when I dated early on I learned that there are some like personality types or some spiritual, uh, temperament types that were really, you know, attractive. And then there were some that were like, okay, I think I can avoid these. But if I wasn't dating, I would have never known that I didn't like this. As you get to see the, what do they call it, front, you know, the thing that everybody shows to the world, right, your personality and all that. But then as you get know them, you see the stuff that goes on that maybe isn't as, oh, maybe healthy, or maybe isn't as attractive.

Alisa [00:06:06] So what you're saying is that clarity really developed for you, not only about yourself, some issues that maybe the Lord's dealing with you and you're ready for some growth and development in that area, but I think what I hear you saying is it's also a time to really ascertain what you are looking for in another partner, to clarify in your mind, oh, I didn't realize that... This issue's kind of an issue for me and is important to me in somebody that I date. Is that what you're saying?

Chris [00:06:38] I think so. And yes, in both, let's say, spiritual, you know, areas, like, how do they love God? How do they, you, know, show their, you now, walk with Jesus, their, where is their heart? How do the treat other people? Then you also, so it takes discernment, doesn't it? You need your spiritual discernment. It takes emotional maturity because you've got stop looking out for. Just you and just me, you know, time of going, I'm pretty selfish in this area. So it takes those kinds of things. And then I think it also takes a group of people around you that would give you feedback and advice and doing this well. What do you think?

Alisa [00:07:24] Yeah, maintaining your community around yourself is so important because I think when we start to date, and especially if you really like the person, it is so tempting to just pour all your extra time and attention into that relationship, into that person. Because they're delightful and you're really enjoying it and every spare moment you just wanna be with them. But too often we do it to the detriment of our friendships, our family relationships. Our other maybe even our vocation or ministry that we're called to do as opposed to Incorporating that new relationship into these other ones as well and maintaining them

Chris [00:08:06] It's it's a tough balance

Alisa [00:08:07] Oh, it is. Yeah.

Chris [00:08:10] Knowing, uh, how do I spend time with this person to get to know them better? But also how do like maintain and still, you know, there's no commitment here, you know that's lifelong, but yet it's a friendship. So let's dive in then to this idea and let's talk about, we, we talked about the purpose of dating, right? Um, are there other principles that you would say are foundational to dating? Well, uh that you had.

Alisa [00:08:35] Yeah, well, I really believe that there's three purposes as we're talking about. First of all, what's honoring to God, what's honor to the other person, and then also what's honoring to me. And so looking at the way that our faith and emotional maturity plays into that, one of the things I was thinking about is, first of all as a believer, One of the things that I see... Our college students dealing with the young, not even just young adults, maybe you're even older in life, or maybe you've lost your marriage for one reason or another. But one of the areas that I think Christians really struggle in is having the commitment to only dating other believers. And I don't mean people that... Oh, they go to church, so they're fine. Oh, They said they're Christians, so we're good to go. Because it's so much more than just not only dating another Christian and setting that as a baseline that we are called to not be unequally yoked in heart, in mind, in faith, in our values. And so. I think finding out, but that's gonna require that you find out pretty quickly where they stand spiritually, especially if it's somebody that you've just recently met and you're just getting to know.

Chris [00:10:06] How would you do that um getting to know another person at that level take some vulnerability you may not want that conversation you know early on if it goes pretty deep but hopefully you know enough about the person before you start dating right then you see them in places and you have friends that know them

Alisa [00:10:30] Yeah, I think also as you're getting to know them, maybe you're going for coffee the first time. I would say in that first coffee date, if you haven't heard them mention their relationship with Jesus, that they don't talk about how important their faith is to them, just even in an introductory way. Like, yeah, I wanna get to know you, Chris. Like, tell me a little bit about yourself. And one of the first things I would want to hear or I would wanna learn on that first coffee date before we're ever getting to the point of deciding, oh, are we gonna, you know, see where this goes is I'm gonna wanna know where are you with Jesus? How important is that to you? Because I mean, it's gonna be a good indication that they're involved in church, right? That they would call themselves a believer. So that's the minimum. But I'm going to want to see, is your faith more than just going to church on Sunday mornings? What does that look like? What does it sound like? Because that's going to determine whether or not it is wise, that's the discernment we're talking about, whether or it is not wise to open my heart to be vulnerable to this person if they are not deeply connected and walking with Jesus.

Chris [00:11:51] Oh, that's good. It reminds me, I met a girl in high school and somehow we decided to go on a date. I don't remember the circumference. She was from a different part of town, whatever.

Alisa [00:12:09] It's your leader, no doubt.

Chris [00:12:11] I don't know. Yeah, probably, I don't know. But anyway, I go over to her house and the plan was, you know, to maybe go grab coffee. Back then, you know, going to a movie was really the rage or whatever. It was this both the strangest and and in retrospect the most refreshing thing that happened I get there I I mean I I know God exists at this time But I I don't know him on a personal level. You know, I'm not in church I don I'm Not seeking him. I just really well pre-christian days and I go to her house and and she comes out and Basically, her parents, her dad in particular, really wanted to know where I stood and what I believed. Really? Yeah. And I think, you know, I remember saying, oh, yeah, I believe, but they asked kind of, I wish I could remember the exact questions, but my answers apparently didn't satisfy them because not only did we not go on the, we stayed out literally on her front porch and just sat there and talked for a while.

Alisa [00:13:24] Which I'm glad her dad was really happy about.

Chris [00:13:27] Oh yeah, because we just sat right there and that was it. I'm watching you, boy. We never went on the quote, date, you know, past our house. Well, I didn't really understand it. I thought it was kind of weird, you know, at the time, you didn't give it much thought, you know. But now I look back and I realize, man, there was somebody she and, you know, her family and whoever decided she's not going to date anybody. That wasn't walking. Why the hell that didn't go on? And now I'm like, oh, I respect that now.

Alisa [00:14:01] So, you know, there's a show that's on now. I don't know if you've ever seen it. It's called Pop the Balloon. Have you ever, have you seen it, Tatum? Pop the balloon. Okay, it's a dating show. I've just seen it like on YouTube or. And then they go, they're all holding. Yeah, there is like a line. Yeah, There's like a lineup of 10 girls and the one guy that's coming to choose the girl to date. And I was watching this episode of it. And one of the things that this guy said was, yeah, my faith is really important to me. God is really importance. So I think he was asked like, what's one of your lines in the sand? Like it has to be there in order to date a girl. And the girls all still have their balloons, right? And they can pop their balloon if they're like, nah, I don't wanna go out with that guy. Or he can walk up to them and pop their balloons up. He's saying, yeah, I didn't wanna out with you. And it's just a series of questions. Whittling it down to the one person and then will you go out with them? Do you want to go out? With her great. It's a man So it's fascinating to watch but this guy gets on there and he's talking about how important God is to him And that's his red line in the sand right is I want somebody Who and they always refer to it as God fearing which I find is an interesting phrase God fearring. It is like, okay But as they went down the line of these women, asking them about their faith journey, some were very clear that, yeah, I would say I'm kind of an agnostic. I don't really know if there's a God, but I'm open to it. And, you know, there are some like, yeah, that's just not part of my life journey. And even asking that question, those women that it's not part of their journey, they would pop their balloon. They're so like, yeah, it's like tapping out, on out. Yeah, just not for me. But there were some women that would answer this question, and this to me was like a flashing neon sign to run away, run away. Is that they would say, well, I'm not really religious, but I'm spiritual. I'm no really, really religious but I am spiritual. That to me, I don't know if that would be a red today, if that, would you say that is? Red flag to me maybe it's a yellow flag to some people but to me that just screams you are not serious about Jesus you don't really know him and you aren't pursuing him with gazelle like intensity you're kind of like in that realm of religious things spiritual things spirituality is interesting to me but I'm not locked in with my my relationship with Jesus. That's what it tells me. So that would be a big red flag to me.

Chris [00:16:47] Okay, yeah, no, I like I you know, I think What one Is it possible that somebody who's who answers that? Really says I just don't like the formality So I remember I I could I would have answered that and and you would have been correct in your diagnosis of me but I also Uh that it it also meant that I I was just trustful of you know the religious orthodoxy, right, or the particular church, or everybody, you know, some people, you have to go to church every day and Sunday and, you know twice a day, you have go to Matt, whatever. They're everything, okay, I'm not religious like that. But I, my heart's open to who God is, you that's it. So, there are nuances, and so really, I think what you're saying, Lise, is that deserves a follow-up question. Yeah. It's like.

Alisa [00:17:39] I'd say best a yellow flag if not a red flag for me. It would have been what follow-up question would you

Chris [00:17:46] want to ask next? You would say, all right, so you're, you're you would say it's more spirituality than religiosity. What would you want to do next?

Alisa [00:17:57] I would probably want to just ... Define spirituality for me. Yeah, exactly. When you say spirituality, what does that mean to you? Maybe what books, what people, what experiences have been influential in your spiritual journey? In your opinion, how do you believe ... Do you believe you'll go to heaven, and if so, why do you think you will? Just in your own mind, and not in an accusing way, but just open, listening, and I just want to listen and really hear their heart. Okay, so this begs the question. Missionary dating.

Chris [00:18:41] I don't know what that...

Alisa [00:18:42] Okay, Miss Larry, they're not a Christian, but they're really nice. They have a lot of potential. They're open to God. So I'm going to go out with him and invite him to church and see if he'll come to church, and do some things like that. See if he will go to Bible study with me, because I believe that he could become a Christian or she could become Christian. So what's your opinion on that?

Chris [00:19:06] Well, I think in this whole realm, to me, you have to have a heart. If you're going into dating like this, or just dating in general, I, I think your, your heart has to be open to, to being, to be, like you said, hearing, listening, learning, appreciating, and that really comes down to discernment. And there could be very, very times in which a person would go, Wow this guy He or she may not know God in the way I know him. He may not have a personal walk with Jesus, but there's something about him. There's something his heart, and that's spiritual discernment. I don't know if I would recommend you start dating, but I think you start a friendship, right? And you at least begin the process of saying, all right, Lord, maybe I can play a role in this person's life. But if you're... If you're looking for dating, I think that's a big red flag. If you are looking just to get to know somebody, hang out with them, potentially think about dating in the future if the person does align with you spiritually. I could see that, right? But not in a dating way, the missionary dating, where I'll bring them to church and bring them into Jesus. Yeah, I'm not really keen on that. And I think you would disagree with that as well.

Alisa [00:20:28] Yeah, I think if we had a student come in that came in for counseling and was asking aggression like that, I would issue them a strong caution. Because one of the things we always say is that you date for patterns, not potential. Because you have no guarantee that they're going to live up to that potential. And if you've spent a lot of time investing your emotions and your heart in this relationship, and they don't live up to that potentially, of really coming to faith in Christ and a vibrant relationship with him, then you're in a relationship that the Lord cannot and will not bless because he's said, don't be yoked with unbelievers. And so that's a really sad, hard place to be when you can't expect the Lord to bless that relationship. It's pretty, it's pretty. It's a big risk. Okay. Yeah, big risk

Chris [00:21:29] Oh, let me ask you this, Lise, when it comes to, let's suppose now that the other person's cleared the bar. They have a

Alisa [00:21:39] That foundational bar. Yeah, that foundational bar

Chris [00:21:42] There are still things related to discern in spirituality that you have to, I mean, that's not like, oh, good, he's a Christian or she's Christian, let's get married, right? There's so many layers to the next level, right, that's just a foundational, you know, bar. What are those, what would you say, well, I'll start with some, okay? And it's a mix of spiritual things and personality things. One, just the idea of- emotional maturity. You see how they treat other people, you know, that can do nothing for them, right? You know, how do they treat the person that is maybe other people wouldn't get the time of day to, or you know that kind of odd person in the dorm that you know everybody is like, oh gosh, stay away from him. How do they treatment them? Is with respect and kindness so you could learn a lot about a person's heart. And emotional maturity by the way they interact with others. Yeah, I like that. What else would you say? So, is there another bar in that regard, maybe emotionally or spiritually?

Alisa [00:22:54] Yeah, one that I think we definitely need to look for is strong communication skills. And that has to do with emotional maturity, right? That you're able to be honest with kindness, speaking the truth with love, right. So they're able be honest, they're be vulnerable. Are they able to apologize when they're wrong or if they've hurt you? Are they able to ask for forgiveness? Are they quick to extend forgiveness if you apologize, or do they keep bringing it up and beat you up with it? What else, what else do you think?

Chris [00:23:35] So it means you'd have to date Lisa in order to kind of figure those things out because the more you get to know someone, then you're more likely to see these things. You're more like to need to apologize for something and then see about forgiveness. That's good.

Alisa [00:23:54] And I think, too, another part of, or maybe an element, a facet of that emotional maturity has to do with your character. Is this person someone who is dependable? Do they do what they say they're going to do when they say they're gonna do it? So are they dependable, are they trustworthy? Are they someone that can hold the confidence? Or if they. Even in how they behave around the opposite sex, you know, if you're dating, you're thinking about dating, how are they when the opposite is around? Do they continue to treat you with honor and preference, or are they kind of flirty in front of you and around you and with other people in a way that is like, whoa, okay, what's going on here? Yeah, that's a real question. I'm not sure.

Chris [00:24:52] I like that. Hey, Lisa, listen to this. In research and psychology, one of the things that we find that is, to me, one the most revealing part about your personality and any other person's personality is recognizing what are the biggest five, let's say, traits of personality, right? And you just identified one, Conscientiousness. They're ethical or dependable, that you see how they treat you are trustworthy, right? And for many people that should be high on the scale that someone is like that. The traits and that personality that I'm referring to, I think it could be so helpful in dating is called ocean. It's called the big five personality traits, right. So there's probably over almost 60 years now of good research showing that most personality assessments and questionnaires online are not worth it, all right? Most are just like, all right, this is fun. It's fun for conversation. But one that really stands out for psychologists, for those who study this, you know, and this is their kind of life research is in this area of personality is the big five personality traits. So let's go through them real quick. Oh, ocean, that's openness to new experiences. What you can learn... About another person is do you want to be with something somebody who's kind of open to do experiences they're like maybe a little non-conforming they're like let's go try this let's see this let go and and you could be either high to that or low there's nothing right or wrong right some people are like yeah i want to go off and do all these crazy things and you can learn a lot about are you attracted to someone Who is with you?

Alisa [00:26:44] Risk it for the biscuit. It's kind of like, let's just go try it. It's truly you. Yeah, yours have been chrism. And I am too, and we love that about each other.

Chris [00:26:54] Yeah, I remember one day someone came to us here when we were new faculty and said, Hey, would you take some students to Russia? I remember going home and would you first of all, study the Russian language? You know, and you said, yeah, and then, you know, take, you know, a bunch of college students over there for a summer to live. And I remember go home and say, listen, this is an interesting thing someone offered. What do you think? And you're like, let's do it. Okay, yeah, we did it. It was awesome. And, okay, so one of the cool best tools, it's called Ocean. By the way, if you wanna find it, you can go to www.outofservice.com slash big five. Maybe we'll put it up on the screen, but- We can put a link to it. What do you think when you're dating, you should both take that for yourself and for the other person. You would have scored high on openness. Oh shi- So do I. The next one, C, Conscientiousness, what you just described, are they ethical, are they dependable? Do they have integrity? Yeah, integrity, trustworthy, or are they kind of like, you know, sketch, I guess, or sus, whatever it is. And that whole, you know scale there with conscientiousness. The E, extraversion, introversion. I think on a date, when you're dating, you ought to find out if somebody is like, I took kind of an introvert, I kind of thought that, but I didn't realize they were that shy or socially anxious. And that may be attractive to you, like, I like the quiet shy one. It matches me. Or it might be, oh, no way, right? So...

Alisa [00:28:33] Off this guy. It's like I like an introvert but he is...

Chris [00:28:36] Every day the shy introvert. Well, I married one.

Alisa [00:28:40] Okay, I don't think you're shy, but you are an introvert. You recharge by closing the door, being alone, and not being around people. And I'm very, much more extroverted than, but you have, you are a social introvert, which makes it work. So you're able to operate in social, uh-huh, social.

Chris [00:29:06] And social introverts.

Alisa [00:29:07] Oh, I'm sorry, no, you are a social introvert, meaning you're an introvert with social capabilities and social tendencies. That's an Elisa Grace comment. I mean, that's not something you can look at. Yeah, I know, in research, social, yeah. You do well in social situations. You can be on stage. You can talk to people, make them feel comfortable. But the way you recharge is to go home, close the door, and to be alone in your own kingdom.

Chris [00:29:38] Well, you know, when it comes to money and marriage, we all want clarity and confidence, right? And especially unity with spouses, right? I think Lisa, that's why we get to work personally with Colby Gilmore of Blue Trust.

Alisa [00:29:52] That's right. Colby Gilmore, along with other Blue Trust certified wealth strategists, offers personalized, biblically centered financial planning and investment management services, no matter what your income level is.

Chris [00:30:06] Lisa, say that title twice. Blue Trust Certified Wealth Strategist. That's a tough one. I'm not sure I could. I know. So they do put clients' best interests first, and they don't sell financial products. I love that about them.

Alisa [00:30:18] Me too. And you know what? We highly recommend Colby Gilmore and Blue Trust for anyone looking for both financial unity with your spouse and opportunities to increase your wealth and your generosity.

Chris [00:30:30] Yeah, so if you guys want to check out ronblue.com or reach out to Colby Gilmore at colby.gilmore at ron blue.com that's colby dot gilmore at rong blue dot com i think you guys will be glad you did Okay, so we're looking at, when we date, we want spiritual discernment, emotional maturity, and some of those are hard to get at, right? I mean, to figure them out. But one thing that we were talking about was this notion of, okay, assessing another person's personality. You talk about, it's hard to do, right. But where we were landed on was these big five traits, right, the ocean. And we did O, openness to new experiences. You're somewhere on that scale, another person and you. The C is conscientiousness, right? You're some where there. Extraversion, introversion. And so yeah, you're a definite introvert and that was appealing to me. I remember, well, I dated people on that skill now that I look back, like, okay, I did some shy ones, I dated some more outgoing ones. I don't think I really saw a difference except if they were too extroverted like I thought you Were a little bit a little on the high end of this. I'm here. Yeah We were what you were with a friend and we went to check grades For you at Texas check and you and your friend Gina. I there was a shout out to

Alisa [00:32:09] You know Horton, move in.

Chris [00:32:09] There must have been 15 people waiting around to see back then the ears to the grades on the door, you know.

Alisa [00:32:17] In a class.

Chris [00:32:18] And then you gotta go look at your thing, and there were about 10 people standing around. I remember looking in, alright, this is great, yeah, I don't know any of these people, I'll just hang out with you guys. You guys were so loud, and talkative, and jokey, and I'm like getting more and more like Uncomfortable All these people are looking at you, what's happening here? Okay, so you're high on that scale. You must, like, I don't care if people are looking, we're having fun. So when you date, you want to, and again, there's nothing wrong with being either, it's just that you need to know your preference and who you are, what recharges you, and what doesn't. And what you're comfortable with. And what your comfortable with, yes. The E, oh, so we didn't already, O, C, right, E, then the A is agreeableness. Ah, but is it? Agreeableness, right? Is that idea of, yes, somebody is just. In general, more agreeable, it is ain't got cheerful, easygoing, and those that are a little bit, maybe less so, you know, they're like, okay, I, you know, there's some people like, I'll see how you do and if you perform well, you know, I've been, I'd be nice, but otherwise I'm just going to treat you kind of whatever.

Alisa [00:33:27] So yeah, so what would be an example of agreeableness in dating? Could it be like, hey, you wanna go get something to eat? Yeah, okay, what sounds good to you?

Chris [00:33:39] And then they're able to, let's suppose you ask somebody what sounds great and they say, well, you know what, sounds really good. I like either Mexican or Italian, but I'll tell you what, I'm pretty open, but those are my preferences. What do you think of that? You're like, oh man, I've been just wanting pizza. Like, well let's go, that sounds good.

Alisa [00:33:56] It's like, really? We can go, oh, OK, we'll definitely go do the other one next time. Like, I know somebody that, like, they... Well, OK. Here would be another example using that same situation of going out to eat. Let's say that you really love Chinese food, and I really don't care for it. But part of being agreeable is being able to say, you know what, it's not my favorite, but because you enjoy it, let's go do that. Yeah, and doing it with a happy face and not huffing and puffing and whining and being cranky the whole time we're there. So that would be an example of agreeableness.

Chris [00:34:34] Yeah, it would be. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you're looking for somebody again that, um... Mirrors you? Yeah, but I'm dating a person in college and I thought she was, she was... You know, I didn't think she was highly agreeable or cheerful, but she wasn't, you know, you know like a... Ogre. Yeah, like an ogre. Right, that's a good word. She wasn't Shrek. But in a situation in which I was stressed, I noticed cheerfulness went out the window, man. It was like, okay. You know, one time I was messing around, took a piece of paper, wadded it up, and I just, she's studying, I'm studying, I just threw it at her. Man, she was like stop it, I am busy, whatever. It was just the opposite of cheerfulness. And I remember going, all right. So what did I do? I, I, five minutes later, I wad a piece, They were neat. No, man, doesn't learn. So, but what I did learn that day, though, was I don't really want to date somebody that's kind of like that.

Alisa [00:35:43] So that's good. You want to learn how do they handle stress, how do they handle disappointment, how did they handle conflict?

Chris [00:35:51] And they're Muehlhoffs, Tim Muehlhoff, great author, him and his wife Noreen, go check out all their books. There's some amazing ones out there. But he was our co-host in this podcast for- Yeah, good friend. But Tim would say, and Norene, that you don't just date for one season and get to know, you have to see somebody spring, summer, winter, fall, I think, yeah.

Alisa [00:36:16] And at least twice through the year.

Chris [00:36:18] Yeah, basically meaning you wanna see them when things are really good in the spring, it's all fun and new and see how they act. And in the summer when it can get, you know, start getting a little hot and, you see how they react and respond, fall, you get the example. And that is the best gage by which you can start to determine some of these personalities.

Alisa [00:36:37] You want to see them in different situations and how they handle it. How are they with their family? What are those family interactions like? Am I okay with that? Am I good with that and pay attention to that because you don't just marry that person, you marry the family.

Chris [00:36:53] Yeah, so what if you're dating somebody... We'll finish the personality ones here in a second, but let's just take a quick rabbit trail with that family. I mean, family of origin is important, right? You want to learn a little bit about the... Now, it's not the determining factor. That individual is that individual. They're created and designed by God individually. They can come from a rotten family and be a wonderful person. Right. And they can come from a wonderful family and be a rotten person. It's just that it's a variable to look at. And it's also, how do they respond? If it wasn't a great person, let's say in a horrible family, are they seeking help? Are they seeking treatment? I know a kid here at Biola, horrible family situation, impacted him in so many bad ways. And it was hard for him to date. It was hard to even make friends with girls. He just, for some reason, just struggled. Well, today he's married. Happily, but it took work. He had to do therapy a little bit, mostly with some counselors, some, you know, friends and mentors a lot. And he started to go, oh wait, my mom was wicked. And that set me up for some really messed up things. And I really don't have kind of the capacity and the emotions to figure this out. He is a great person to go okay. Let's see, how did you respond and what are you doing today in light of those mass circumstances? You wouldn't want to ignore him because he had a rotten family, but just like you wouldn't just give the green light to somebody that comes from this amazing family.

Alisa [00:38:32] Right, and you want to see the steps that they're taking, that they are taking steps to grow. Maybe going through counseling, working with mentors, being discipled to grow in those areas. And maybe you are going to be the instrument that God uses to really pour some grace and healing into that person.

Chris [00:38:52] Yep, that's good. And you just did that. Okay, so let's get back to personality traits. We have the OCE, the A agreeableness, and then the N is something called neuroticism. The positive is something call surgency. Neuroticism, I guess you could kind of define it as somebody who's kind of anxious, you know, a little bit timid at different times, right? So, But somebody that is high on the neuroticism scale is... They're a little bit more, well, you can kind of come up with the idea, right? You have this.

Alisa [00:39:28] Would you say anal? I mean, is that a layman's term? Like, oh, I mean is there kind of anal about a staff?

Chris [00:39:33] Definitely a layman's term, and maybe not. We're too pejorative, huh? It is. But they are a little bit kind of guilt-prone, maybe a little but insecure, or a little bit anxious over things. And that's that in our office. Surgency is they're kind of more the opposite of that, like kind of highly self-confident. And there's this sense, you know, of... All right, my walk with God is good, and yeah, I mess up, but I'm gonna work on this and do, you know, that kind of, yeah, purposeful life almost. So, that's the last thing. I like that. Okay, so when you're dating, Lisa, what a great way and a great tool to figure out some of the ways, so the whole thing we're doing here is how do I discern emotions, personality, spirituality, and discern that in a right way? And we said at the beginning, it takes people. It takes openness and learning and watching. It starts with a good foundation. What else would you add? Anything you want to add for our listeners here as we think through and wrap this up?

Alisa [00:40:42] Yeah, I would say two more things that I would add to that is that you want to get the input of your close inner circle on their perspective of that person. Because oftentimes our hearts get really deeply involved in the relationship to where we too willing to have blind spots, meaning we're willing to overlook concerning issues. That we really should be paying attention to.

Chris [00:41:14] Do you have any examples of like concerning issues, like maybe somebody who is not ethical, right? They kind of cheat a little bit or they're okay with that.

Alisa [00:41:23] Or they have anger issues. Or they press you, let's say, sexually, to go further than you want to go and that you know you should go. But there's pressure there. Or maybe they're disrespectful to you. I tell you, one of the things that drives me crazy in this area is seeing videos, like on Instagram, To Talk Whatever, that this couple that is newly married, they're and then they shove, one or the other or both, shove the cake in their face. And I've seen cases where the guy, I mean, she's standing there in her beautiful dress, her makeup, her veil, and he takes it and just smashes it on her face and starts laughing about it. And you can see in her face that she is just crushed. Like, oh my gosh, I can't believe you disrespected. Me like this not only in front of everybody but on our wedding day that you didn't protect me and care for me and my first thought is oh little girl you should have seen this was not well she did my my suspicion is that she did see this this was not the first instance where something like this happened where he disrespected you and you were willing to turn a blind eye or she disrespected you in some way. Treated you badly, unkindly, a lack of integrity, and you overlooked it and you kept moving forward. And you had people that spoke truth to you. Because one thing to keep in mind is behavior is a language. And when someone tells you what their behavior, who they are, you should listen to them and believe them. And so if you have people in your close inner circle, your family, your friends They're like, man. I'm really worried about you, and I'm worried about this relationship. You need to give it adequate consideration and in honesty with yourself and with them. Are you willing to hear them out and to really consider it?

Chris [00:43:32] Love that least behavior is a language. And then so what we're what we are doing is we're reading Others right? We can't discern people's hearts. We none none of us can we you know Our hearts are wicked and deceitful above all else right and and but We look at patterns and behavior to discern what's going on there You know John Gottman talked about this idea of a harsh start-up in an argument And it's similar to what you're talking about if you're having conflict And that person immediately goes into this BAM, right?

Alisa [00:44:05] Oh, they're a 12 on a 0 to 10. Yeah.

Chris [00:44:08] Well, even if they're, you know, higher than you're comfortable with, right? Even if it's like, why are you... They're criticizing, right. It's, even then, it's important. It's something to watch out for. And I think that's kind of that idea of the behavior like that. The wedding cake was certainly not the first example and you ignore it. And then, you know, right, you see those other four, the four horsemen of the apocalypse as John Gottman and others, right? Defensiveness and criticism and content and stonewalling. We've covered those before. Go check out a previous podcast on the four Horsemen, but at least if you start to see those and you ignore them while you're dating, it's to your arrow and your children's pair and your child's pair, all of us. You and me were not perfect. There are times in which I wish I didn't have a harsh startup, right? There are time in which it wasn't, you know, didn't say something that was very critical. So it doesn't mean that that is an, you now, ah, no more dating. It's, all right, are they working on this? Is this the pattern, as you said?

Alisa [00:45:16] The repair attempt, okay. So that was one is, do you have a close community who speaks truth to you and you're willing to listen even if you don't like what they're saying? And then the second one really is, as a believer, to come into this possible relationship, potential relationship, maybe it's ongoing relationship, with a heart that is fully surrendered to the lore. Where you are able to hold your relationship like this, saying, Lord, I want to be yours first and foremost and this relationship to be Yours. And I'm willing to hold it loosely, Lord. If you don't think it's a good idea, then Lord, I really want you to tell me and I will be obedient. And Lord, if you're opening the doors and you think this is a great idea, then Lord. Build a relationship and help us both to build it in a way that honors you, honors each other and honors ourselves. And so it's really being open to the Lord and holding it loosely where if at any point you sense that the Lord is saying, this is not my will, this not my best for you, and are you willing to lay it down if you know He is saying that? Because if not, you hold on to it, as we said, to ultimately to your peril. And we don't want that for people. We don't that for.

Chris [00:46:50] For others. At least I know you would say this, too, that you would not just pray that you were different, but that the person you're dating will also make such a commitment and decision to themselves, hey, that like, Lord, if let me sense, but if the other person also senses this, then that's not a good sign or that's maybe something else. Well, I think this is... Probably worth another podcast because there's so much more we can talk about, you know, red flags and we, you could pick out red flags that we've been talking about, we've got covered. And then some things that are really good. Like you talk about forgiving and apologizing and responsible, responsible.

Alisa [00:47:33] Right. Yeah, all of those. Vision and clarity, where they're going and...

Chris [00:47:36] Yeah, so we did cover it. Maybe we don't need another podcast. This might be the podcast to end all podcasts on. We don't ever need to do another one. Unless they give us two thumbs up, push the like button and subscribe to, I don't even know what that means. But send this to your friends that are dating. Go to the cmr.biola.edu website. I think there you can find a ton of material on dating, on engagement, on. Marriage, everything, relationships.

Alisa [00:48:06] Yeah, so actually the Art of Relationships is brought to you by Biola University and we are a part of the Talbot School of Theology now. So you're going to be hearing a little bit more about Talbot's School of theology here at Biola.

Chris [00:48:20] Yep, and so we're grateful to be with you guys, and uh...

Alisa [00:48:25] So yeah, thanks for sharing your time with us and your day with us, and we'll look forward to seeing you next time on our relationships.

Alisa [00:48:36] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.