Boundaries vs. Ultimatums with Willa Williams

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In this episode, Alisa Grace sits down with licensed marriage and family therapist Willa Williams to unpack the often-confused concepts of boundaries and ultimatums. They explore the difference between making a request, setting a boundary, and issuing an ultimatum—highlighting how tone, intention, and personal responsibility can either build connection or create division in your relationships.

Together, they provide practical tools and real-life examples to help you communicate needs in a healthy way, create emotional safety, and respond maturely when on the receiving end of a boundary. Whether you’re navigating conflict with a spouse, roommate, friend, or coworker, this episode offers wisdom and encouragement to help you grow in both courage and compassion.

Resources Mentioned:

• Speaker-Listener Technique (PDF) – A simple yet powerful communication tool that fosters active listening and mutual understanding in any relationship.
• Blue Trust (Colby Gilmore) – Biblically-centered financial planning and investment management for couples and individuals.
• The Couples Institute – Dr. Ellyn Bader – Professional therapy resources and relationship education.
   

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: www.youtube.com/@biola-cmr
   

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

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Mandy [00:00:01] Welcome to The Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, let's get right into it.

 

Alisa [00:00:11] Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Art of Relationships podcast. It's brought to you by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, and I am your co-host, Alisa Grace. And you can tell that this is not my usual co-Host. She doesn't quite have the eyebrows and the dashing good looks of my tall, dark, handsome husband. that she is wonderful nonetheless. So we have a really great topic for you today. And my co-host today is Willa Williams. And Willa, welcome to the Arnie Relationships. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yes, we've done this before a couple of times and it went so well that we wanted to do it again. Chris is out of town today. And so Willa was really gracious to join me. And Will has been a practicing, licensed marriage and family therapist for Gosh, since 2005, Willa? And you were licensed in 2013? Yes.

 

Willa [00:01:09] V13

 

Alisa [00:01:10] And so she's actually a therapist here at our Center for Marriage and Relationships and we're so blessed to have her because not only is she a fabulous therapist, so well equipped, a godly woman, but she also happens to be one of my best friends. And so we're gonna have a great time today.

 

Willa [00:01:28] I'm looking forward to it.

 

Alisa [00:01:29] Good. Our topic is really interesting, Willie, because it's something that we get a question about quite often. And so today I've invited Willa to join us because we want to talk about the issue of boundaries. What is a boundary? Why do we need them? What's the difference between making a request or a relationship and studying a boundary versus making an tomato. Are there times that you should do one of those as opposed to another one of them? So we're gonna just dive in and unpack this a little bit for you because I have a feeling that this is, it's something that every relationship needs probably. Would you agree, Willa?

 

Willa [00:02:08] I would agree. It's very important information for sure.

 

Alisa [00:02:11] Yeah. So why don't we just start with, let's define the terms that we're going to be talking about today. So when we talk about the difference between making a request versus a boundary, setting a boundary versus issuing an ultimatum. Let's start with a request. What would be a sample of making a requests and when you would make one in a relationship? Yeah, I think a request is kind of like.

 

Willa [00:02:35] the first thing that you would do if there is an issue between you and another person. And so you just are basically letting them know that there's something that is of concern to you and you're asking for their cooperation. And so there's a template I really encourage people to use. It's a temple that when this happens and you describe an event or an action, I feel, and then you describe how it is for you to experience that. And then he would say, it would be helpful if... So when you're talking to me within those sorts of words, I kind of feel small. It'd be really helpful if maybe you could say those sorts things to me in this way and give an example. So that's just making a request of hey, I want some consideration and for how I'm experiencing this situation with you.

 

Alisa [00:03:21] I love the way you articulate that and give us the verbiage for that. I think one thing that helps differentiate a request is that it's really geared towards you're asking the other person to change their behavior, to do something different as opposed to yourself. Right? So you're in a very nice, very safe, structured way, you're asking them to do something different. And, actually, that's something that you don't really have a lot of control over, right, whether or not they do it.

 

Willa [00:03:51] Right you can only control yourself and what you want to and I even I would I think I would just add to that That there is still an element of flexibility Right, so if you're making a request, it's not like you're coming down that it has to be look just like this You're still some flexibility in what you're requesting But yeah, you are asking for a difference

 

Alisa [00:04:10] Mm-hmm. Okay.

 

Willa [00:04:11] something to be different.

 

Alisa [00:04:12] Okay, so that would be a request, and then kind of if you're going up to the next level, it would be boundary. So how would you define a boundary?

 

Willa [00:04:23] If it's okay, can I compare that to an ultimatum? That's okay. So a boundary, I think, for me, is something that we do because it is in our best interest. It's for our own health and wholeness. And maybe something I need to be healthy physically, to be health emotionally, to be healthier spiritually. And so I'm making this request of someone because this is what's going to be helpful for me. and I need that, but I'm also giving them an opportunity to respond to that, to say yes or no if they want to kind of come alongside. And it's open for discussion. We can talk it through. We can, you know, just as friends, we can kind of figure out, okay, how does this play out between the two of us? Versus an ultimatum, which is much more, I think boundaries are healthy. Boundaries are needed. And ultimatums, again, for me, is more negative. and ultimatum is more about Um, I want what I want and it's more manipulative and about control. I want you to do something and if you're not going to do that thing, I'm withdrawing from you. I'm pulling away and I'm leaving. So, and it may not even consider the other person as much. I don't really care about you and how you're thinking, how you feeling. I want this. I want to do this. And if you don't, I'm out.

 

Alisa [00:05:46] Mmm. So it sounds like it can be very similar to making a request. That what I hear you saying is that maybe the tone and the intention behind it is what sets it apart and makes it different.

 

Willa [00:05:59] Yeah, yeah, I mean, the tone and intentionally for sure.

 

Alisa [00:06:03] Like, imagine, let's do a scenario. Let's say we're one of us, like I'm talking to Chris. And I'm gonna ask him, honey, I really need you to be more affectionate with me. I'm missing his affection. I'm feeling a little overlooked, a little disconnected. So what would be the appropriate verbiage in making if that was a request? And then what I'm going to ask you to do is turn that around and change it, make it an ultimatum. So if it's a request, what does it sound like?

 

Willa [00:06:36] Okay, again, using that helpful template, when this happens, I feel, it'd be helpful if, when I am not sensing attention from you or affection from you or I'm feeling a little neglected, it's hard for me. Again, I fell neglected, I felt kind of left out. I feel sad. I miss you. I want that connection with you and I'm really missing you. It would be helpful So, if maybe we could kind of set up a... Ritual when you come home from work that we greet each other at the door. There's a hug and a kiss We talk about you know, it take a few minutes to kind of get settled and then we talk about our day Maybe we do, you know Cook dinner together, but we spend some concentrated intentional time together That would be really helpful and then I could even say how do you feel about that? What are you wanting? And ultimatum would be more like hey, buddy. You're not giving me the time attention that I need and if you don't I'm I'm gonna just ignore you and I'm going to go to bed angry and I'll leave you alone. Or I'm outta here. I'm out. I'm a- I'm outer here.

 

Alisa [00:07:39] So, yeah, okay, so that's really helpful to get that distinction between the two, because you're still asking the other person to change, but again, it's the tone and the intention and the way that you did it. The first one really shows caring concern and invites the other into that conversation, whereas the ultimatum, it sounds like, this is just my way, it is the highway, so you either do what I want or I'm outta here. Right. OK. Yep. Okay, so let's say that you've made the request of the other person, okay? And gosh, that could be a spouse, it could be friend, it could a roommate, right? Okay, let's imagine that you made that request, okay. You've made that the request and they are either unable or unwilling to meet that need that you have. Let's say you've really put it out there with compassion, with kindness, you've invited them into the process. You've given them the opportunity to hear something and make a change that would be helpful, but they just respond really negatively. So they're either unable or unwilling to meet that need. So then what do you do now?

 

Willa [00:08:54] Then when you begin practicing some good communication skills, like the speaker-listener skill we talk a lot about, you let them know, this is what's happening for me. This is how I feel about this. This is I think about this, this is what I'm wanting, this what I am wishing for. Can you tell me what's happened for you? What are you thinking? What are feeling? What are wanting? What are wishing for? Because you want them to feel also included and consider, because that's going to make it much more likely that you can collaborate.

 

Alisa [00:09:22] I love that word collab.

 

Willa [00:09:25] You're on the same team. And in asking for a change, you're not necessarily asking them to change as who they are, but you're asking more for a difference in behavior or a difference and how you're interacting with each other. And then if they continue to be, you know, unwilling, and it kind of depends on the relationship. I mean, it's different if it's a roommate versus, you now, a spouse. But if it looks like if it is a roommate and you've attempted several times, I I think it's okay to say, hey listen. this is something that I'm finding that I really need. And if it's something that doesn't match up with what you want or that you're not willing to or you're are not able to, then I think we're gonna have to explore the option. Maybe we don't live together. So that's setting the boundary. That's setting a boundary. Because for my own, like if it was somebody who's up all night long and I need to sleep, you know. Hey, I would love it if we could have lights out like by midnight or one o'clock. And if the other person's like, this doesn't care. then I'm going to say that, listen, because of my own well-being, I know I need sleep to do well, and if this is not something that you want to do, then for me I'm gonna have to probably go into a different housing situation.

 

Alisa [00:10:34] that

 

Willa [00:10:35] That's setting the boundary and it's not telling them they have to do it or they're terrible. They're out You're just saying this is what I need and if we can't work that between the two of us I'm probably going to have to be something different

 

Alisa [00:10:46] I love that, that idea of that boundary, where you're really saying, this is... This is something that I need, that I can control, that is about me. And I'm not keep setting a boundary to keep you out. I'm setting a boundaries to protect myself, to protect my needs. And this is something as a boundary that I have control over. I can't control you, right? I've made a request, you're not able, you're willing to help meet that need that I've make. So I set a boundary in order to protect myself, right? And that's something that I have control over me.

 

Willa [00:11:26] And I think that's what makes it different from an ultimatum, because then you're not saying, well, you have to do this. You're saying, hey, here's the option, here are the choice. And if you choose to not do this, then I'll have to something different myself, again, because I, as you say, I can control me, I can't control the other person. So you're giving them an option, where in an ultimative you're not giving them the option. You're just saying it has to be this way or there's severe consequences.

 

Alisa [00:11:49] So what do you do if, say, you've made the request, they're not going along with it? Or maybe they have for a short period of time, but it's going back to old habits. They did great for a week or two, but now it's sliding back into that. What do you if the person isn't willing to respect that boundary? Let's say that you've expressed that. but they get really angry, really defensive, and even maybe accuse you of, well, you're just setting an ultimatum for me. What's the response to that? How do you interact with that?

 

Willa [00:12:29] helpful to remember that a lot of times, majority of times people don't like boundaries. If you set a boundary people tend to be like, you know, it feels like it's a block to them and so if you're thinking that the person is going to respond, hey this is great yeah I'll do that, I mean maybe sometimes that does happen which is nice, but a lot times especially people that we have to set boundaries with they're not going to be very appreciative of them. So it's Okay. You know, you want to give them that space to maybe not be super excited about it. And I think it's really important then to talk to them and let them know, hey, this is what's happening for me. Again, when this happens, I feel it'd be helpful if. And then you realize, okay, what is the line for me that I'm not going to say it five times? Because nothing is changing. And then I think, again, it's important to say to them, you know, nothing is and it looks like then maybe we can't. But we can't collaborate on this because this is something I realize that I need for my own health and well-being. And so it's not something that you're going to be able to do. I think we're going have to change our situation then. So you're giving them the freedom to respond or not respond, but you're also not making yourself stay put.

 

Alisa [00:13:42] So you really have two options, right? You can either decide, okay, they're not willing to meet me halfway. They don't really care about my needs and how this is impacting me. So you can choose to just acknowledge that and say, okay they don't care, this isn't really gonna change, but I'll stay anyway. I'm just acknowledging it's not gonna change but I'm gonna choose to stay anyway, or you can make a choice to, you know what? This really has gotten to a point where it's not healthy, there's not the mutual give and take in our relationship, and so I think it's time for me to disengage from this relationship. And I think, again, this is really important, Willow, where you were saying the approach is gonna be different, say, in a marriage versus where maybe it's a roommate at school kind of situation. It's much easier to disengage with a roommate and just say, yeah, I'm gonna make a difference. A different housing arrangement, right, right. As opposed to in a marriage. So what do you do in a married? Yeah. Well, if it's okay.

 

Willa [00:14:51] I was going to add one more option to that. The other option is you agree to stay, but we do it out of fear and we're more passive. Like we just kind of give up and we just accommodate. Kind of roll over. We roll over and just give up. And that's not really healthy either. So yes, it is a little bit easier scenario if it is roommate because you do have more options. If it's with a spouse that gets a little trickier because just to roll over and just give up. That is not going to work long term.

 

Alisa [00:15:23] not how you want to spend 60 years.

 

Willa [00:15:25] No. In fact, you can't. You can't, it would be impossible, emotionally impossible to do that. But you also aren't going to just leave. So it's going to take some persistence in talking it through and getting the other person, listen, I need you to understand this. This is what's happening for me. And you continue to bring it up and you continue to talk with the person about it. And then I think if nothing changes, then I think then some outside help would be very beneficial. What kind of outside? I think marital counseling. Marital counseling would be good. Or if the person doesn't want to go, then do some individual counseling. There are still benefits to you going, even if it's just you yourself, learning how to manage that in a way that you're still being honoring to the marriage, but you're also, so that you you can still survive and thrive in that setting, which is going to be kind of tricky.

 

Chris [00:16:25] Well, you know, when it comes to money and marriage, we all want clarity and confidence, right? And especially unity with spouses, right? I think, Lisa, that's why we get to work personally with Colby Gilmore of Blue Trust.

 

Alisa [00:16:40] That's right, Colby Gilmore, along with other Blue Trust certified wealth strategists, offers personalized, biblically centered financial planning and investment management services, no matter what your income level is.

 

Chris [00:16:53] Lisa, say that title twice. Blue Trust Certified Wealth Strategist. That's a tough one. I'm not sure I could. I know. So they do put clients' best interests first, and they don't sell financial products. I love that about them.

 

Alisa [00:17:06] Me too, and you know what, we highly recommend Colby Gilmore and Blue Trust for anyone looking for both financial unity with your spouse and opportunities to increase your wealth and your generosity.

 

Chris [00:17:18] Yeah, so if you guys want to check out ronblue.com or reach out to Colby Gilmore at colby.gilmore at ron blue.com that's colby dot gilmore at rong blue dot com. I think you guys will be glad you did.

 

Alisa [00:17:39] So let me ask you this. Let's suppose that you're on the receiving end instead of the one making the request or establishing the boundary. Maybe it's the other person that's making the requests of you and establishing a boundary with you. And man, that can be hard. It can be. Absolutely. You know, I think. To be able to respond with the tone that you're using and the verbose thing you're usin' would be my ideal, right? That would be in a perfect world. But if I'm really honest, I mean, my initial go-to, at least internally, that voice playing in my head is gonna be. You don't understand, Chris. You don' know what my day's been like. Well, if you hadn't been snippy with me this morning, then I wouldn't be snippy you. It's really your fault. I'm gonna, my initial reaction is just gonna be to become defensive, to try and justify. And I know, I know cognitively that that is not gonna be helpful. And hopefully over the years, I've learned. different ways of responding, but what about that person that's watching, that's listening today, that they're going, yeah, me too, and I know that about myself, but I don't know what to do differently. How do I change, what's an appropriate response, and what does that look like, what does it sound like?

 

Willa [00:19:14] The very first thing that comes up for me is I think it's very important to be kind to yourself, because yeah, that sometimes is going to sting. And so to have some kindness and compassion for yourself, so not like, you know, giving yourself a hard time, that's not going to be very helpful. So I'm like, okay, yep, they came, they said this to me, that's part and parcel of relationships. It's okay that I feel this way. And there's things I can do to make it better. So coming at yourself with some kindness, and compassion and understanding are very important. And then I think it's important to, this is where our level of emotional maturity and security comes into play. And so if it's hard for us, it is harder for us if we are more sensitive, if we aren't quite as emotionally mature as we want to be and we get upset. It's really important to remember that what we initially, like you're describing that voice in my head, what we, initially, naturally, we naturally go there. We naturally get defensive, we get uptight, we want to offer justifications. And so it's OK. It's our natural response. But usually what we naturally want to do is not helpful. And so we want acknowledge that. And so I think what we can say, because we want be honest, too. We want to be honest. We want be what I like to say descriptive. And what I mean by being descriptive, it's like we want describe our own internal process. What's happening for us in that moment? And so I think a very helpful thing to say is, okay, I hear you. This is hard. I'm gonna be honest, this is hard, it stings a bit. because I know this is good for me to know this and I care about you and I cared about the relationship. I'm gonna work really hard and not taking this personally. I just wanna understand what it's like for you even more. Can you tell me more about that? So it's key to not take it personal because that's what we do. We take it personally and then we kind of run right into those four horsemen which I'm sure you've talked about the four horseman, the Gottman, but it's not helpful. So if it's hard right in that moment, take a break, take a breather, and then as you calm down, then remind yourself, okay, this is gonna be hard, but this is the good kind of heart, and I'm gonna work really hard not taking it personal. One, I have an example of a couple where it was really hard to not take it personal, and this has been so helpful for me because it is hard. It is hard to take things personally. There was a couple that did some counseling. They were working with Ellen Bader, she's the director of the Couples Institute. And the wife did not believe in divorce because of her religious background. And so the husband asked her, you know, what do you think about us? And she said, do you really want to know? And he said yes. question. That's a loaded response. Do you really want to know? And he said, yes, I want to know. And she said, well, okay, because I don't believe in divorce. I pray for your death every day. She said that. Get asked. This is true. This was an actual couple. And to his credit, the man said, I wanna understand what is that like for you? How often? what do you pray and that was a turning point in their marriage because then she realized I can tell him anything he's safe now now I know that is an extreme example and I only offer that because I know for me when it's been hard for me to not take things personally because that's her human nature but it's not like Matt ever tells you I wish you would die never so I think That guy can put up with that. Yeah, I can deal with this. So I offer it to you as a, hopefully, some way to an encouragement. That's great. But then think about, and even if it's hard, remind yourself it's okay, it's all right, but here's the thing. It is hard to hear that and to work with that and to be open to hearing and making accommodations and working with your partner. But if you don't do that, it is hard too. because there's long-term negative consequences of things that are, you know, there's going to be resentment that pops in and creeps into your relationship, and a distancing, and you're not going to be as close, and your not going feel as understood, and so that's a bigger price to pay. So if you can, and this is where emotional, you want to work towards emotional growth. Is it hard? Yeah. But there's good things on the other side of that, being open to like, okay, this is hard, this stings, I don't like this, but I'm going to try really hard to listen. and be open to hearing this because if I don't, I know there's gonna be a bigger consequence. I love this person, I care about them, I care bout my relationship, so I'm gonna set my concerns aside, just not always, but just for this next few minutes, I'm really gonna try really hard to not take it personal and listen.

 

Alisa [00:24:18] So what I hear you saying is that, yeah, it's hard to risk making the request and being vulnerable. It's hard hear and receive with grace when you've messed up or something that you're doing probably inadvertently that is hurting your partner because you love them. You don't want to. It's harder to hear that. but also being disconnected, being distant and... and our marriage suffering, like you said, because of that, or our friendship suffering because of it, that's hard too.

 

Willa [00:24:51] Absolutely.

 

Alisa [00:24:52] So there is no option C that's easy. No. And so what we always say is choose your hard. Pick your pain. Choose the hard, pick your pain, pick the thing that's going to do you the most good and bring about the most benefit. Because no matter which way you go, it's going be hard. So choose the one that's gonna benefit you and your relationship the most. Yeah, pick one that is going to give you something for your efforts.

 

Willa [00:25:19] be brave, be courageous, and step out. And here's the thing, if you don't do that, I mean, it feels safer in the moment, which it probably is safer in a moment, but then what happens is that, like you said, the bigger pain later on, this is how marriages turn into roommate situations.

 

Speaker 5 [00:25:36] Hmm

 

Willa [00:25:36] Because over time, you just stop making the effort, you stop being interested, you stop caring, and then you get a bit resentful, and then it's like, okay, well. And then you end up just living with this person that there's really not very much emotional connection to.

 

Alisa [00:25:50] Yeah. Which is sad. You know, something you just said, creating that safety to be able to really share vulnerably and openly in a relationship, whether it's a marriage or it's parenting, you know, or a friendship or a roommate or a colleague, you turned in that report late and we're on the same project team and that makes us both bath you know it If when someone comes to me and wants to share something that I've done that's hurt them or made their life harder or that I have offended them in some way, if I respond defensively, if I responded with blaming, you know, which would be natural, right, it's natural exactly. What that does though, the result is that then that person learns that I am not a safe place for them to really be open and vulnerable and authentic, they're real selves with me, that I'm not safe. When my child comes to me and says, Mom, that really embarrassed me when you got onto me and you really came down on me in front of my friends. That really embarrassed and if I respond, well, well you shouldn't have been bad enough. Well you shouldn t have turned in that homework. Well you, well then that child learns that mom or dad. I can't talk to them, they're not safe. I can share when something is really bothering me. And so they learn to stuff and push it down. And you know, as I'm saying this, I think about my own upbringing. I had a dad that was just perpetually angry. He was just always angry. And so we had to walk on eggshells and we learned to be careful about what we said. And we never, you know I learned, I don't ever tell my dad if something bothered me because he would instantly turn it back. And so unfortunately, what happened is that I took that into my marriage. And that's something that Chris and I have had to grow in that I personally have had grow in. And so, well, as we wrap up, there's just something I wanna pick your brain on. What are biblical examples of setting healthy, strong boundaries? What are examples that we can find in God's Word?

 

Willa [00:28:11] Well, Jesus, He's our good shepherd, right? He loves us so much. He is the person we want to model ourselves after. And Jesus clearly set boundaries all the time. The people wanted to make Him king. And what did He do? He went away and He went and had time with the Lord. People were always making requests of Him and do this and do that, do this healing, do more miracles. And what He did was He focused on the work that the Lord had for Him to do. That was His focus. That was his anchor. that was his compass, and so I think that we can do that too.

 

Alisa [00:28:44] That's all, so why are you persecuting me?

 

Willa [00:28:52] We look at, what does the Lord have for me to do? And Lord, obviously, is calling us to be kind, to be patient, to be compassionate, to listen to people, to kind and loving, to be of service, but yet it's because of we're serving the Lord. We're not doing it to get something from somebody, and that is a good way for us to have some healthy boundaries because we follow the way He set boundaries. He wanted to serve the Lord, and we can do the same thing, and do it in kindness.

 

Alisa [00:29:17] I love that. Really good. And we could just keep talking and talking and unpack this more and more, but I know that we really try to keep this to a half hour, if at all possible. And so I really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much for having me. I get excited because this is.

 

Willa [00:29:35] important things for us. Relationships are hard. Being sometimes is hard. And so we need to learn from each other. We need to be supportive of each other, and encouraging, and to get some good knowledge and good training. It's very helpful for all of us.

 

Alisa [00:29:50] Yeah, and not only that, but it benefits our testimony to the world, right? The mark of a Christian is how well we love each other, how well we do life together. And so this not only impacts you and me as friends or Chris and me as a couple, but has a bigger impact than just me and him, or him and I, and our family. but it has a bigger impact, the world that is watching us to see how we live out what we say we believe.

 

Willa [00:30:20] And to kind of bring it full circle, I even think that as we set healthy, loving, kind boundaries with people, even if they don't like them, when they sense the love and the care and concern that's behind it, I think that they respect it and that it's also part of our witness.

 

Alisa [00:30:34] It's an imaging of God, because God does that with us all the time.

 

Willa [00:30:38] And they may not get that with other people in their lives.

 

Alisa [00:30:42] Very good. Wow. Thank you, Willa. Thank you for having me. It was really fun. We'll do it again. Sounds great. So thank you for joining us today on The Art of Relationships. You know, if you really liked this, if you got something out of it, would you share it on your social media, send it to a friend, and let us know about it? We love to hear from our listeners in the impact. Whenever we're out doing conferences, we always have somebody that comes up and says. I listen to your podcast and I love it and we're like, awesome, that's great. Share it and give us five stars because that really helps the algorithm on social media. So we'll look forward to seeing you next time on the art of relationships.

 

Mandy [00:31:24] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.