In this episode, Chris and Alisa Grace explore the hidden cost of chronic busyness and emotional exhaustion—especially the kind that stems from doing too many “good” things. They discuss the symptoms of burnout, how it quietly erodes our most important relationships, and why many Christians struggle to set boundaries out of guilt or obligation. With practical tips for recognizing early signs and creating emotional margin, they invite listeners to evaluate their priorities and build sustainable rhythms of rest. Whether you're juggling responsibilities as a student, parent, spouse, caregiver, or ministry leader, this episode offers valuable insight on how to recover from burnout and rediscover joy and connection.

Resources Mentioned:

• Ezekiel 37:4–5 – A reminder of how God breathes life into dry bones, symbolizing restoration and renewal.
• Proverbs 4:23 – "Watch over your heart with all diligence, for from it flow the springs of life."
• Chariots of Fire – A film referenced when discussing finding life-giving purpose; “God made me fast. And when I run, I feel His pleasure.”
• Ron Blue Trust – Biblically-centered financial planning mentioned in the sponsor segment. ronblue.com

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• Website: cmr.biola.edu
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• YouTube: www.youtube.com/@biola-cmr

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

Mandy [00:00:01] Welcome to The Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, let's get right into it.

Chris [00:00:11] Welcome to another Art in Relationships podcast. My name is Chris. This is Alisa. By the way, Mandy, thank you for the introduction. You guys know where to find us. So let's dive right into a topic that is relevant every single day I think of the year. I think every single day is relevant because we feel almost every day, many of us, busyness and stress And the kind of outcome of that is burnout. And one of the things that is a huge relationship killer and certainly a red flag, Lisa is when busyness and stress starts leading to cracks in our relationship and we're not functioning very well but we don't have the resources, the emotional bandwidth because we're doing so much. We got kids who are in. Whatever and they're doing this and that and we've got

Alisa [00:01:11] We've got work, we've got school, maybe you're parenting, maybe you're trying to do grad school and dating and work, maybe you're in that sandwich generation like we are, where we're taking care of grandkids and elderly parents, and even sometimes dealing with financial issues or dealing with issues with our kids, maybe, you know, when we have kids that are struggling, or maybe even chronic health issues. And it just begins to add up, add up to where it becomes overwhelming, just overwhelming, and just such a burden that we cease to begin to, we cease to be able to function in a normal way.

Chris [00:01:55] Right? I think that's it at least. I think that that recognition that we're not doing well, we can probably point to times and situations when we're just kind of maxed out. Yeah. So by the way, it can happen, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, it could happen what? Well, it can happen not just in young marriages, it can happen in people that are retired, but it also happens with just relationships, right? Students. People in their 20s and 30s, maybe they're dating, but relationships, it's a busy time trying to find out, what's my major? I gotta study, I got finals, I have to work, I have balance, all of these things, and we find them so stressed out.

Alisa [00:02:38] And it can even be a good things, right? I mean we love what we do for work a lot of people You just love what you do for word, but let's say that you've got work. You've got kids that you love you've Volunteer work that you're doing hobbies. You're you're coaching your your kids teams You're doing leading Bible studies your mentoring. I mean all of this can be good stuff. It's not all bad stuff. But when the the good stuff becomes too much and it becomes more of a burden than a joy, then you know you're facing burnout.

Chris [00:03:12] So, let's dive into that topic because it is something that impacts almost all relationships and not just your personal family relationships, your marriage, your boyfriend, girlfriend. It affects your job, your kids, you know, the way you deal with, you know, bad news in general in life, right? Okay. First of all, Lisa, what is busyness, right? What does that mean when we say and then let's talk about some symptoms and eventually let's get to a point of all right here's what you do, here's how you recognize things. So start us off for you, what does it mean when we say how do I even recognize busyness? What is it?

Alisa [00:03:52] Yeah, busyness and burnout, it can really be a variety of things because when we talk about burnout, we're talking about a chronic depletion. It's a chronic deflation in your emotional capacity, your mental capacity, your relational capacity. And so, when we look at that... There's a really interesting Chinese symbol, and maybe we can even put this up on the screen for you to see. But the interesting thing about this symbol for busyness is that it's made up of two symbols. Can you show it? Yeah, okay. We'll post this. It kind of looks like that. But anyway, it's two symbols together, and that first symbol is the symbol for heart, and the second symbol is a symbol for killing. And heart. Killing together equals busyness to the point of exhaustion and the inability to function.

Chris [00:04:55] Yeah, all right, cool. So, in these Chinese characters, the way we English people would read them, heart killer equals for them, it's the symbol for busyness. But what you're saying is those two really kind of lead to, wait a minute, heart killing. Yeah. What happens there? So, busyness means it eventually, like you said, depletes us. Think about driving in a car, you have... Very little gas left. So many of you know that feeling and it's like, oh my goodness, I either have to coast, I have to wait for that next, you know, gas station. I remember us being on a freeway. I just thought of that. And we, the thing said, you have 20 miles left till you're empty and the next gas station is 33 miles away. Yeah. And it we, that depletion all of a sudden changed what we needed to do. It's like we're in panic mode. Oh yeah. We're pleaded. We're just gonna have to coast. Oh dear lord help us. Yep. Okay, so depletion lease is one sign Obviously a busyness and then that heart killer is kind of thought to think of it another way is like an emotional Killer it's this it's not it is physical right and then but we're gonna talk about the relational it kind of Psychological part of the heart right? Mm-hmm. Okay What would you say are some ways that we would begin to recognize that or what would happen at this point when we go, all right, I relate to this, I'm stressed out, you don't have to remind me, I'll say this. Look for some signs if you want to know. Think about what stress does. Some of you may find yourself being more critical. Maybe you find yourself being, um... Maybe it's physical like you're you bite your nails more often you talk fast You are impatient with people you begin to say and do certain things like Why am I so snappy right here? What is it and I know for me one of them I could tell is I just like sleep a lot Like I'm just stressed. I just got to get away, right?

Alisa [00:07:11] Yeah, I know you're stressed out when I come home and you're napping. The first thing I want to say is what's wrong? What happened?

Chris [00:07:18] That's right. What do you do when you get stressed, when you know you're overly busy and you're stressed? What comes out for you physically?

Alisa [00:07:26] Gosh, I think I probably fall in the category of being a little bit more snippy at people about things that are completely unrelated to what I'm stressed out about. So I get snippy and probably I'm way more prone to cry too. It just comes out in tears. It's like I can't stop it. It just come out in the tears.

Chris [00:07:48] And so we are, as human beings, just naturally going to deal with busy life and stress because we have things like church and ministry. We have work. We have play. We have kids. We have groups. We have meetings. And I think many of those are good. They can cause, of course, this idea of stress and busyness. And we have to admit stress, there's a lot of good to that, right? I mean, it's energizing. I know I have to go do a project or get to do something. It's kind of like, oh, I like doing this ministry. I like going to church. I like singing in the choir. I like, you know, getting the opportunity to go do this ministry, yeah. And so some amount of like that's normal and that's okay. But something happens when it tips.

Alisa [00:08:43] And don't you think too, Chris, that there's a cultural push to glorify busyness, right? Oh, you wouldn't believe how busy I am. And I can hear myself, I fall into that too. You can't believe where we have to go, where we're supposed to be, where we've got to write this, we've gotta do this, da da da. This is a cultural pressure to be busy, as if you're not busy, then you're lazy. And even within the Christian culture, right? Oh, I'm so busy serving the Lord, right. And if you're really serving the lord, you're doing it to a point to where you're giving it everything you've got for you've nothing left on the table. And that that scene is like a spiritual gifting and a spiritual pat on the back that I'm busy doing for the Lord and serving the LORD.

Chris [00:09:39] Yeah, man. And I think, Lisa, you hit something that maybe a lot of Christians can misidentify or, like you said, kind of go, well, but this is what God has called me to. This is what I'm supposed to do. And, I just got to suck it up more because the outcome is so important.

Alisa [00:10:04] And I think along those lines too that maybe we misinterpret the setting of boundaries and the ability to say no with being selfish. You know, if I say no because I know I don't have margin for it, I'm really worn out and I need to not do that event, well then I'm being selfish, if i don't do it who's going to do it and then people are going to go without.

Chris [00:10:29] No, that's great. I love that. So let's dive into some things that I think are important. What are some of the hidden costs, Lisa, that this brings up, right? There are some hidden things that people need to know, right. First of all, we talked about, oh, maybe he can identify this with some of the physical, but there are some other things that start to impact relationships.

Alisa [00:10:52] Well, it definitely does, because when you've burned your candles at both ends, you're over-committed, you're overcrowding yourself out on behalf of other people in some really necessary good ways. But what happens is that, like you were using the analogy of the gas tank, your gas tank is on empty. And when you are functioning repeatedly and regularly on empty You have nothing left to give others. You have no way of taking care of others because you haven't paused to take care of them.

Chris [00:11:28] Of yourself. So what do we call that? We call that relational leftovers, right? So my work, my job, you know, outside, my ministry, the group I lead, the people I need to go see and do the housework. And what do you get? And we have found this in our marriage and we found it for a lot of other people. They get the relational leftovers. Right? I come in and I'm like, I'm exhausted. I'm just going to go to the room and lay down. They're like, but we haven't even talked for 24 hours for 48. And you're disengaging from me. It's like, yeah, you only get what I have left. And it's not much.

Alisa [00:12:13] It's not much. So that cost that you're talking about is a disconnect relationally in our closest relationships, right?

Chris [00:12:21] It happens spiritually too, right? I mean, all of a sudden we get so busy for God that we can also, the same thing happens. I'm not really able to spend time with God, talk to Him, pray to Him because I'm so busy doing His work.

Alisa [00:12:36] Yeah, I think another cost along those lines is maybe experiencing a sense of resentment toward other people because maybe your own expectations are not being met in the middle of that too. So that resentment, that bitterness can grow.

Chris [00:12:54] Yeah, I love that.

Alisa [00:12:55] Especially let's say that like you said when you come home and you're really tired And you just want to disconnect and recharge and you go back to the room and close that door What my expectation is? Hey, wait a second, you know, we're having dinner Don't you want to come to the dinner table? Don't want to debrief about your day? I need to hear what's going on in your heart There are a couple things that I really need to to talk about with you and get your input on and when that's not happening, well then that's an unmet expectation that I have. And when that begins to happen over and over andover, it's like, that's gonna happen every now and then because that's just doing life with human people, right? But when it becomes the pattern, right, that's when we get in trouble because then that when the roots of bitterness, disconnect, and resentment can really take root.

Chris [00:13:47] Yeah, so go check out our podcast on setting good expectations and what happens when our expectations aren't met. So that's another kind of, you know, very important trail to go down if this is it. Lisa, what else now would you suggest is important? Give me another thing like, for example, I'm thinking about what does it mean? For recovery or what does it mean to recognize some signs and what else do you think would be helpful in this topic as you've been thinking about it because it affects both of us.

Alisa [00:14:23] Well, I think that we've got to realize that when it comes to burnout because we're just over committed and we're talking in terms of recovery more than just rest, more than just hey, I just need a nap and then I'm going to be good to go. It's a lot deeper than that and so I think what we really have to start with overarching is the idea of we need to reorder our priorities. Our priorities have become skewed, they've gotten out of whack. And we need to start with reordering those priorities.

Chris [00:14:56] It makes you think of some movie, I can't remember. You've got to check your priorities. Oh, Harry Potter, Hermione. And I also think of a Pepsi commercial where the little boy is talking about, he's like, yeah. I have a new – I'm going to start working out. I need to – I got to reorder my priorities, and he's drinking from a big old two-gallon jug of Coke. Remember that? He said, the drinking is the worst. Drinking is the worse.

Alisa [00:15:28] We use that line all the time.

Chris [00:15:29] Than drinking as well. Okay. So, let's talk about that. Priorities real quickly, reordering. How do you know? What would you suggest to recognize, all right, I've gotten out, man. I've messed this up. I've been giving my priority to work, which for many people is like important. But we oftentimes will tell couples, look, think about this, who do you want to give your test two. And you know, there's this great passage, you know it's great illustration in the Old Testament and it's this. That illustration is it comes from a very powerful proverb which talks about giving God the first fruits of what we sow, the firstfruits. Now, fresh fruits is a fascinating Old Testament metaphor. Which means this, and we've talked to even farmers about this, they say, yeah, here's a first fruit. The very first fruits that come out of the harvest are the best. That fruit is most likely to be the best of all the season we have, and they call it first fruits. What did God say? Honor me with the first fruits of all you produce. Yeah, bring it. That's right. Then when you give me those first fruits your barns are going to be filled with plenty and your vats are going To flow with the overflow with new wine. Well, think about that God is asking us to honor him with all that we give by giving him The very best and you ought to market how much a farmer can get from the first roots are the best But God says no honor me. Let's train. That's pull that into relationships. Does our spouse deserve our first fruits or are we giving our first fruits to our job, to our ministry, to the church? Well, that's awesome. But if my first fruits are there, my priorities are now out of whack and I need to reconsider. I wonder if when I come home and my wife gets leftovers, is that honor? If God says honor me by honoring your spouse, then my job ought to be what are my first fruits? My time, my attention, my joy. What do you need? Time, attention, acceptance, commitment to each other. But I'm not giving those to you. I need to go back and go, wait a minute, when am I at my best? 7 a.m. When I head to work and I give that until 12 and I'm like then I need to consider how can I give those to the relationship, to the marriage. Maybe I need get up earlier, or maybe I need go to work later and have those first fruits of my joy, my love, my attention towards you.

Alisa [00:18:29] I love that. I love it. So what I hear you saying, Chris, is that it takes a reordering, starting with just even mentally, emotionally doing a reset, where our first priority, you talked about God and the first fruits, where we are getting up, maybe it's a little bit earlier in the morning, and we are dedicating a period of time. It might be 15 minutes, and that's all you can squeeze out. It might be an hour if you have more time. That you're giving the Lord those first fruits, you're communing with him. The best of you. Right. The most rested you. Right, which sets the tone for the rest of the day, right?

Chris [00:19:10] And he says, when we are to honor each other as we love God in that same way, and so therefore I need to be thinking, okay, my best is at this time, and I can no longer give it to other people or to our...

Alisa [00:19:29] Or to hobbies, or to volunteer work, things that are good, but you need to reserve that first fruits for your best yes. There's a lot of good yeses, right? There's lot of really good yes, but the best yes will be first for God, then your spouse, then you kids, then work and everything else.

Chris [00:19:57] I think that's it and I think we reverse them in our culture because of what you said that this culture today looks at people that are busy and they're not busy, they're being lazy when indeed I think the order that we're doing needs, you need to sit and ask where are my first roots going and do I have this reverse?

Alisa [00:20:25] So when we think about getting those priorities back in order, Chris, there might be a couple of steps that we need to take in order to be able to do that. Because the last thing we're saying is just pile more on now. Now you've got to add a quiet time to everything else. Now you got to schedule time with your spouse, with your kids, in addition to everything else, so what we would recommend to combat this and to start this recovery, to get those. Reordering of the priorities back where they should be is number one. We've got to address the root cause and that means asking yourself where am I over committing? What am I overcome committing myself to out of a sense of fear?

Chris [00:21:15] Or guilt. Or obligation. Exactly. Or shame, right? Oh, I need to go spend time with this person because that's what good kids do. That's a good parent. That's right. That's what goods this way.

Alisa [00:21:27] Got to go visit my elderly parents in assisted living four times a week because they need us to come by and have that kind of interaction.

Chris [00:21:39] And they may very well, and you may have the time, but it also may not necessarily be that many times and you need to figure out, am I doing this for the right motives, right reasons, out of guilt, out a shame. So instead of going into like, oh wait, I could cut this back, it's almost going, wait Lord. And so this is what you're saying, I think. As we sit and go through this, we need to ask the hard question, what am I giving to.

Alisa [00:22:07] And why. And why. Because if we're doing it out of a sense of fear or guilt or obligation that's probably a pretty good indication that we need to rethink that as a priority up at the top. And so really getting down to the root, what am I over committing to and why and really identifying that.

Chris [00:22:31] Lisa, one of the things that you and I have written a little bit on and have talked about in relation to this, one technique that we have found that's helpful is telling every newlywed married couple that they have a gift that's been extended to them in Scripture, in the Old Testament. And it's in Deuteronomy 34.5 and it says every, this is, imagine this, Israel, time of war, people are always, you know, fighting against Israel and there's this need for soldiers. And yet, the Old Testament says, I imagine it was Moses who said, every newlywed soldier shall not go out with the army for a period of? One year.

Alisa [00:23:25] order to stay home and make his wife happy. I love that verse. I think that's fantastic.

Chris [00:23:35] Here's a warring country that is defending itself and whatever, I don't know at the time, but exactly what was going on. But they were saying every newlywed couple, soldier, needs to take an entire year to stay home in order to make his wife happy, which, by the way, means something about a sabbatical and the importance of it. How are you going to know if you're so busy, if you never have time to stop and pause and consider the why am I so busy. Taking a sabbatical from maybe that extra job. Maybe you don't, maybe you have to keep your job and you can't take a sabbathical, but you can surely find something to cut out.

Alisa [00:24:16] Maybe it's volunteering in your kids' classrooms, and you take a year off. Maybe it is taking a year from coaching your kids baseball teams. Maybe it taking a years off from your lay ministry, even at church, because you are burned out and you're over committed. And remember, we're fighting that tendency so that we don't get into a place of where we are so burned out, so empty, that we don't have something left to give. And so. Lisa, it's no surprise.

Chris [00:24:48] The surprise is that the two professions that are most likely to use sabbaticals are professors, academic institutions, you know, get a sabbatacle every seven years. Imagine that. It's kind of biblical, kind of weird, but also pastors. Oh, they need a sabbathical. They need sabbatacles and they are often times the ones that are the most overworked whose marriages are most impacted. And threatened. Threatened. And many of their, unfortunately, overseers might say, hey, you can't take off this fall semester or these three months. We need you. What will we do?

Alisa [00:25:26] You already get two weeks of vacation.

Chris [00:25:28] And that's the business model. So by the way, if you're in a church, you're an overseer, you work with the pastor, you encourage and do all you can to get that pastor, that ministry leader to take a sabbatical where they can reinvest. And by the, I would, it would be awesome to take the whole year sabbatic, but even just a couple of months.

Alisa [00:25:48] Three months two or three months

Chris [00:25:49] Yeah, Lisa. What do you think then is the defining things about the why and then What do use what do you suggest when it comes to examining your heart as this passage or as that thing talks about in? Other words, I Think about this verse It says watch over your heart with all diligence for from it flow the springs of life. Right, the wellspring of life flows from their heart. So, heart killers, this is where our wellspring flows from. This is where everything I'm passionate about and I enjoy and I want to have amazing connection with you and if I'm not watching over my heart, I think this is what you're suggesting, then I'm basically putting at risk. The wellspring of life, says the prompter.

Alisa [00:26:48] Yeah, and so I think what you're getting at, Chris, is not only do we have to address and identify the root of where we're over committing, but we've also got to give ourselves permission to pull back, and to give yourselves permission to do the sabbatical, to say no when we need to say, no. And then not only to pullback, give yourself permission to say No, but then I think That third thing would be to... To begin to identify places where you can carve out a margin in life, a little bit more borders so that you have the emotional energy and the wherewithal to be able to step up to the plate, where you do need to step to the play, right? There's got to be a way that you create margin and build up joy, like true joy in life. And so we have two. Important questions to ask yourself in order to carve out those places of margin and joy.

Chris [00:27:54] All right, let's do it. Well, you know, when it comes to money and marriage, we all want clarity and confidence, right? And especially unity with spouses, right. I think Lisa, that's why we get to work personally with Colby Gilmore of Blue Trust.

Alisa [00:28:14] That's right, Colby Gilmore, along with other Blue Trust certified wealth strategists, offers personalized, biblically centered financial planning and investment management services, no matter what your income level is.

Chris [00:28:28] Lisa, say that title twice. Blue Trust Certified Wealth Strategist. That's a title. I'm not sure I could. I know. So they do put clients' best interests first, and they don't sell financial products. I love that about them.

Alisa [00:28:40] Me too, and you know what, we highly recommend Colby Gilmore and Blue Trust for anyone looking for both financial unity with your spouse and opportunities to increase your wealth and your generosity.

Chris [00:28:52] Yeah, so if you guys want to check out ronblue.com or reach out to Colby Gilmore at colby.gilmore at ron blue.com that's colby dot gilmore at rong blue dot com i think you guys will be glad you did All right, hey, thanks to our sponsors like Colie Gilmore at Ron Blue Trust. Lise, one of the things that now we're starting to get into is two important questions that help us identify the margins or how to create the margins. Create space. One of the thing I think is very important to help us is modeling what Jesus did. We're asked to love the Lord our God with all our heart, our soul, our mind and our being and our neighbors, ourself. It's when we start to love our neighbors ourselves so much that we might fall into this trap a little bit, right? Oh, I got to serve, I got to do this. So we identified that. But what did Jesus do when his time was so limited on earth, and yet, he carved out.

Alisa [00:30:08] Margins all the time. He's the perfect role model for godly self-care, right? Because you've got to take care of what's going on here before you can be able to pour out.

Chris [00:30:23] Into others. Tell us how, like, what comes to mind when you think about his self-care? What did he do? How did he it? And what can I use as a model?

Alisa [00:30:32] Well, I think there's a number of ways that Jesus did it. You look scripturally. First of all, there were times that it says that he removed himself and he went out to the wilderness to be alone. It's almost as if Jesus were an introvert at heart and he needed to pull away from the busyness of life in order to, of course, pray. But to remount and reload a little bit in that time of solitude. So he practiced solitude it says also there were times that uh that they withdrew from the crowds and and times that he just spent with his friends those close disciples he says I no longer call you servants but I call you friends and he said those are the ones that he would withdraw from all all the needs everybody pulling on him that needed healing, that needed help. And that he was ministering to. And he took time to say no and to draw away with his friends because his friends replenished him, right?

Chris [00:31:40] And he would pull away even on his last days on earth and pull and say, I need to be with my God, I need be with, you know, my father and I need, and so stay away, right? Those kinds of things.

Alisa [00:31:56] And there were even times that he engaged in social events and activities when he could have been doing ministry. But for him, he said, I need this too. Not just for you, but I need to this too, a time that I can just kind of let my hair down, relax, remount, reload, and just have fun in social advance, right?

Chris [00:32:19] Yep, and if you want, go, you all can find these events. Go study the way Jesus handled crowds, the way he dealt with his friends, the way He dealt with social events, and use that as this model of He did take care.

Alisa [00:32:35] And one other important one that I think would be your favorite one is Jesus napped. He slept when there was a big old storm going on outside when they were on the lay, right? And so everybody else was panicking that he was perfectly at rest emotionally, mentally and physically asleep. And so he took time out to rest and to nap.

Chris [00:33:02] Yeah, thank you for mentioning that one, how much I'd like it. Is it wrong to love sleep so much? Is it long to love naps? Like, I'll be honest with you, I'm a napper in general. You are a nappier. I have a couch every office I've ever owned. And I guarantee you, if you show up around 1 30 or two o'clock, I've probably taken a 30 minute nap. And you're like, oh, he must be in there working. He's praying. Look at his eyes. Some extra work on his dissertation follow-up I guarantee you, man, I'm sleeping. Okay, some of us love, I don't think it's a sin to love sleep so much. And that probably though is a sign that you might need a little bit of time away. Okay, so Lisa, there are two important principles that you mentioned. And give us those two principles and let's talk about them.

Alisa [00:33:49] Yeah, well there are really two questions that you can ask yourself, first of all. Number one is, what brings me rest? What gets me rest, and then the second one is what brings me life? What is life giving to me?

Chris [00:34:06] So, what you're saying is, answer, write these two questions down and answer them during time away. What brings me rest and what brings me life?

Alisa [00:34:17] Yeah!

Chris [00:34:18] Man, alright, so let's talk about it.

Alisa [00:34:20] Yeah, so when you think about that question, what brings me rest? What we're talking about is a time for you to physically rest your bones, your muscles, your body. It's like, what are the things that recharge me physically? What brings life back into my body?

Chris [00:34:40] What brings back life into your body? What does it for you? Give me an example of you get tired, you're busy all the time, think about the kids are young running around and you're like, what do I need? What did you need?

Alisa [00:34:55] Yeah, so I think that for me the things that bring me rest are time with my friends. Like I have two girlfriends that we have annual passes to Disneyland and we go to Disneyland and it's basically an expensive way to stand in line for eight hours and talk.

Chris [00:35:14] With my girlfriends and laugh and have fun. And you have another friend, and I remember you coming saying, oh, they want to go on a cruise. Can I go? And what do you think? Oh, a girl's weekend away, yeah. First of all, what about me?

Alisa [00:35:31] Wait, this one is about me and godly spouse care, not first care.

Chris [00:35:34] It is the opposite of I'm hungry, I'm thirsty, where's my wife? What do I do? I learned we have a stove and I don't even know how to turn it on. Well, you were gone. I'm like, who's going to help me? I have spoiled you rotten. Rotten. I'm a lucky man. So you have- Door dash. You have door dash. That's what you have. You have friends you go on a cruise with. I have door-dash. So what? You have you have friends that you've done different things with and you say it you rest because It's like a social event for you.

Alisa [00:36:06] Yeah, it's also like watching videos, sometimes just mindlessly scrolling through social media. It's just time to disengage. Reading a book. I love to read a really good book. So reading a spa day for less expensive times. A walk, just going for me. Being in nature is my spiritual temperament. It's my love language. So just maybe taking an afternoon down at the beach or going for a walk around our neighborhood or even just sitting out on our patio. We have kind of a creek that goes through our backyard. Even in the middle of Southern California, it's kind of crazy. You feel like you're out in the country. But just spending time in the mornings with my That's why I have my quiet time. Oh, at night, I'll turn the fire pit on and just sit out there and read by the fire pit because it's in nature. It's reading. That's how I self-care. That's what takes care of Alisa.

Chris [00:37:07] Yeah, and I would say for me, it would be very similar. I think for me I love, you know, still engaging with things and ideas. I could find myself lost in a book or in a topic of and but instead of it being maybe necessarily related to work or relationships or marriage like, you and I work on all the time. It's kind of more like, I just love, for example. Sports, right? So for me to sit and watch a baseball game or the NBA playoffs or the National Hockey League playoffs, you know, or the Dodgers beating it by everybody, or even just watching anything on a sports channel, I just relax and I'm like, okay, I'm back in my happy place.

Alisa [00:38:01] That's great. So you not only identify what brings you rest, okay, what brings me rest, but then as a spouse part of being married is caring for each other. And so it's being able to ask you, Chris, what bring you rest and then what can I do to help you get that kind of rest? What can I do? Where can I step in? What do you need me to take off your plate? So that you have this time of rest for whatever period, whether it's 30 minutes when you come in the door from work. When we had kids, I just needed to keep them busy for that first 15 to 30 minutes. You said hi, gave everybody kisses and everything, and then I would distract them so you could go in the room and you could just have your diet coke, eat your pistachio nuts, those set out for you. And just gave you that time where you read the news. Maybe you just debriefed. And then after you reached that time of refreshment, then you were ready to come out and engage. And then later in the night, you would do that for me. You would help get the kids in bed. You would get their pajamas on, get them in bed while I'm taking time away. Maybe it's a hot bath. And I would just put candles up in the bathroom. Turn the lights out and sit there and soak in the tub for a little while while you were putting the kids in bed.

Chris [00:39:32] Yeah and the way I put the kids to bed was I taught them that I would say, do you want a whoopin? And they would always answer yes and here's what I did. I taught that. A whoopin' is when they want it, when I would be rollin' with them on the bed, and they would be, we'd be play fighting, and I'd grab them both, and we'd roll. And they'd say, whoop up on us, Daddy. I'm whoop-in' you good. And I'd say you want me to whoop you? Yeah, Daddy! So I'd hit, grab the pillow, and they'd jump, and I knocked their legs out from them, and they're dying laughing. I said, I'm gonna whoop your again. So from that point on, I'd come home every day, and they said, Daddy, will you whoop me now? And I said son, I'll whoop for you if you did your bath. If you get ready for bed, then I'm gonna whoop you and go, oh, thank you, daddy.

Speaker 4 [00:40:18] So...

Chris [00:40:19] It's just this beautiful moment of being able to whoop your kids and have them ask for it. And they actually like it. So I remember one time we brought on first a couple, we're eating dinner and the kids are about to finish up, Daddy, could you whoop us now? And this couple looked at me and I went, what the heck? Did you eat your dinner? Yeah, Daddy I did. I said, all right, what are you going to do next? You pick up my toys. I'm going to go pick up, my toys, I said all right and then what? And then I'm gonna go get ready for bed. And will you whoop me then?" I said, son, it's gonna be my joy to whoop you then. Thank you, daddy. I'm gonna go do it now. I said hurry up, because I'm a whoop now. And this couple looked at us with the most astonished look on their face saying, I'm good and I watch you. What have I stepped into? Okay, so while you were getting your rest, I was whooping the kids and we were all happy, right? The point that we're making, let's get back, it is this, what brings you rest? Just go find it. And with your spouse, go make it happen for them. Yes, for a recharge is your body. And maybe it's a whole weekend away. Maybe they need a day away with their friends. Go on a date night, you know, with a couple of girlfriends that you have. Whatever it is, you need it. And I would suggest that's the cool thing. So one more, and that's the second question you need to ask yourself. And Lisa, what is that second question?

Alisa [00:41:44] Yeah, and this question is, what brings you life? So when we talk about what brings you life, Chris, what we're talking about is what awakens your passion? What brings meaning and purpose to your life? What are those things that you can build into your life that bring you meaning and purpose and just reawakens your soul? In other words, if rest is recharging your body, then the life-giving things are the things that recharge your soul, okay? So like for you, what would you say are some of those passion things?

Chris [00:42:20] The one that I almost always mention is what brings me joy in life. It's related honestly to teaching at a university a particular course, Intro to Psychology, and I find myself standing up there lecturing about the coolest things, about the brain, about emotions, you know, about disorders, but also about cool things, you know, like what does this mean and what is and how and as I'm lecturing I just find students especially the feedback is that's so cool so interesting because I think it brings me life and so what do I do to bring life I prepare for lectures I read everything because it's interesting and then I know when I stand up and I get to lecture on this topic I find it brings my life.

Alisa [00:43:17] Yeah, you know, several years ago when the president of the University of Biola, Dr. Barry Corey, he approached you about leaving faculty completely and taking the vice presidency of student development, university planning, and IT. And I

Chris [00:43:40] away the acronym, Student Development, University Planning, and IT. S-D-U-P-I-T. I said, Barry, did you ask me to be the VP of STUPID? And he went, oh, Chris, no, I'm sorry. Let's change that. We can change your order. And I said no. I'll only take this position And if I'm called the VP of stupid, and so for seven years I was the stupid VP.

Alisa [00:44:02] Yeah, you remember what you were when you were the associate provost. Yeah, I'm still talking about it. Anyway, but what I think one of the important things about that that you did, Chris, is that when you told Dr. Corey, yes, I will be your vice president, you included a caveat. You said I will only do it if I can still continue teaching Intro to Psychology. And so you ended up, you were taking a lot onto your plate because you had a full-time job of vice president, but then you were teaching a class of like, what was five or six hundred intro to psych students, office hours, appointments with students. You took that on on top of it because it was life-giving to you. It's what enabled you to do the administrative work, which was not your sweet spot, even though you were. You have a gift for it, you were super good at it, but that's not what really gave you life. It was the teaching one.

Chris [00:45:03] Yeah, and to the president's credit, he said, okay, it's kind of maybe not normal, not the way I would do it, but you know what? I can see how important this is. And he recognized the value of it for me and maybe even for the students and agreed to it, which I'll be forever grateful. So yeah, Lisa, you have to identify what brings you life, what just kind of feeds your soul. And sometimes it's just being alone and playing a video game and winning, or sometimes it just simply, you know, doing something of a hobby and it feeds my soul and time goes away when I'm wood carving and whatever. Or time with our kids. Or yeah. And our grandkids now. Whoopin' your kids. By the way, our grand kids now know about whoopins. I sure do. And one of them goes. Doc, will you whoop me now? And their parents looked at me like, oh dear Lord. He's doing it again. Lisa, what about you? Did you have anything that brings you life when you think about it? You already mentioned some.

Alisa [00:46:07] Well for me, one of them is spending time with our friends. I really love that. I'm more of the extrovert. I'm still an introvert, but I have a strong extroverted tendency. I do because I do love that time on the porch alone to remount and recharge.

Chris [00:46:25] Well, you're there you're remounting recharging about how many friends can we get together with tonight tomorrow and the next day your thing? I do have some extra vertin to use Some yes my goodness you come in and say hey Chris Let's go to dinner tonight with so-and-so I get we just had lunch with these other people You're like, I know isn't it gonna be fun. And I'm like, no, it's not let's stay home and watch the Dodger game Let's stay at home and woodcarve and make you know, picker-mache you wouldn't and you're like what is that? I go, I don't know. I just don't want to go with people to know

Alisa [00:46:56] for me brings you life yeah being with friends and honestly like our date nights together like when we get away and we get a weekend away or even just a lunch just going to lunch together or we were driving home from work the other night and we were in the same car which is really an oddity because usually we're coming and going even at the same office at different times we have two different cars But those rare times that you and I get to drive to work together or drive home, or we just went to a wedding where we had to drive six hours in the car there on Friday and then six back on Sunday, and what did we do? We talked the entire 12 hours. You never know.

Chris [00:47:42] 10 hours, because the last hour and a half when we hit LA, if you remember, I'm like, all right, you drive, I sleep. That's true. That may be it. It was like 10 and a 1 out of 12 hours.

Alisa [00:47:52] And we honestly did, and we didn't run out of anything to talk about, which was so fun. And it just made me feel, it makes me feel alive, makes me fell passionate about our marriage, our relationship, about you, and it just, it charges my battery to spend that one-on-one time with you.

Chris [00:48:12] It really does. To the couple that made that happen. It was their wedding we went to. Elisa and Blaine. Elisa. That's right. Who was named after you. Her name is Elisa Bach was, and now she married. Love you Elisa Yo and Blane, we love you guys. And that's what provided that six hour drive. I hope they compensate us for gas because that was a lot of money man. What's up? No, it was worth it It was it was really so that that idea then for you Are the the questions you're asking? I guess what you're saying is we're challenging you all listeners to find that which brings you rest Yeah, that which bring you life. Yeah, and then do those. Yeah. That's how you create mark

Alisa [00:48:54] And I love this verse, Chris, the one from Ezekiel, where he's talking about dry bones, right? And I'll just read it. It says, prophesy to these bones and say to them, dry bones. Hear the word of the Lord. This is what the sovereign Lord says to these stones. He says, I will make breath into you and you will come to life. And so it's these kind of life-giving activities really that you sense the Lord breathing life back into you.

Chris [00:49:30] That's the verse again, chapter and verse.

Alisa [00:49:32] Now, that's Ezekiel 37, four through five. And do you remember, when you think about these things that bring you life, the things where you sense God's pleasure in you. Do you remember Eric Little? He was the subject of the movie, what was it called?

Chris [00:49:49] Uh, yeah, I'll get it in a minute, something gold, something...

Alisa [00:49:53] Oh, what was the name of the movie?

Chris [00:49:55] A running movie.

Alisa [00:49:58] Do you know Tatum? We're asking Tatum. Conviction? No, it was the, it'll come to us in just a moment. But Eric Little, he ended up, he grew up on the mission field in China, right? And his brother ended up going back to the UK where they were from to go to boarding school starting like in first grade. And while he was there, chariots of fire. That's the name of the movie, Chariots of Fire, yeah. I don't know, Charrots of fire. I don't know what Golden had to do with it, but anyway, while he was in high school.

Chris [00:50:32] You just dissed me. I don't know what I'm going at. I'm so sorry. No, no, no.

Alisa [00:50:36] While he was in high school, he discovered he was really good at running. And so his plans, while he was high school he was on the track team in college there in Cambridge, or yeah, Cambridge or Oxford, anyway, he was he was on the Track Team and ended up competing on the 1924 Olympic team, right? But the problem was is that after college His plan was he was supposed to go back to the mission field in China. And so in the movie and in the book, Chariots of Fire, his sister was asking him, Eric, what are you doing? Why aren't you going back to the Mission Field? God's called you to the Missions Field. There's a bigger purpose here in that big Christian vocation. And she put a lot of pressure on him from that Christian spiritual sense, right, that we've all felt.

Chris [00:51:32] Any answer, at least.

Alisa [00:51:33] Yes, what he told her was, he told, you know, God made me fast and when I run, I feel God's pleasure. And so that was what was life giving for Eric. And so he ended up competing in the Olympics because God wired him to do that. And then eventually he ended up...

Chris [00:51:57] They gotta go watch the end to tell them it's 25 years old. I don't think you're gonna ruin it for anybody.

Alisa [00:52:03] No, so he ended up going back to the mission field, but it was after he competed and he won like four gold medals Yeah, he did he won gold

Chris [00:52:15] But the phrase that stood out to you and to a lot of other people is, I feel when I run, God made me fast and I feel His pleasure. And so where do you feel God's pleasure? You feel His Pleasure. By that and you are about to open up some secrets and by the way, that pleasure can change over time. You may not have it, you may not know, you're like, I don't know yet and that's You know, if you're 20, 21, you may not know that, but you may have something of an idea at 24 or 25. That may change when you're 30, 30.

Alisa [00:52:51] Yeah, somebody told us one time that when you look at where your gifting intersects with your passion and that meaning, that purpose that brings you life, that that's your sweet spot in life. That's your Sweet Spot.

Chris [00:53:06] Yeah, it was written in a small little pamphlet by an amazing author who I can't remember his name. But that idea, what are you good at? What brings you pleasure, right? What brings a passion? And in that sweet spot, it's as if you're doing something and time fades, your soul is fad, busy-ness of life no longer is taking away from. And you're experiencing first fruits.

Alisa [00:53:37] That's right. And so then when you think of it in terms of, let's go back to marriage, that analogy, or not analogy, but that situation, and then begin to identify, ask each other, where I would say, Chris, what are those life-giving things, those activities that bring you life? And like for you, part of that was spending time with your friends when you went to the Final Four for several years in a row with a bunch of guys. Y'all entered the lottery. And you all pulled your money for the hotel rooms and you guys would go to.

Chris [00:54:12] The NCAA men's basketball final four, whether it was in San Antonio or Indiana or Detroit, we would go. It was just like four days of amazing.

Alisa [00:54:23] And so yeah, was that hard on me as a single parent with young kids? Yeah, it took some extra effort, but when I helped you carve out that space in life for you, you came back filled, and now you came back, you were a better husband, you were better father because it breathed life back into you, that godly self-care. When you let me spend the money to get that Disney pass, Okay, it's my Christmas present, my birthday present, my anniversary present, because Disney, yes, they have this great philosophy, spend more, get less. So that's our Disney philosophy. But it does it, it breathes life in me to spend that time with my girlfriends, and so you make that happen for me, and it takes some sacrifice, it takes an effort. But you let me take that time off. You let me spend that money that is budgeted for that to go and do that.

Chris [00:55:23] So what I'm hearing you saying, Lise, is for couples, even dating and others, is start to navigate where do you find life, you know, where do find rest and where do you find pleasure and joy and then make that happen for the person you're with as much as you can and start to carve out more space by saying no, helping identify the seeing us, right? And then the counters to that are the final two questions.

Alisa [00:55:54] Because when you do that, when you take time to take all those steps that you just recounted, when you that, it replenishes your battery, right? It's like charging your cell phone that the battery has drained down to 1% or 2%, and you are in that burnout mode. And if you don't stop to take time to plug your phone back in, to plug your body back in and plug your heart back in then your phone is not going to be useful. It can't fulfill its purpose when that battery is drained and it's dead and we can get to that point where our battery is drain and we are just emotionally, mentally, relationally drained unless we take time for that godly self-care and recharging.

Chris [00:56:46] You recharge, and when it comes back on, you delete some apps that are eating up too much of your battery.

Alisa [00:56:53] Those places where you're overcommitted, overworked, you've got to remount, get those priorities back in line, figure out what things do I need to let go, what things maybe do I maybe need to shift and reorder so that I can do it. Maybe it's just same good things, but less of it.

Chris [00:57:12] Well, Lisa, I think that's awesome, man, great ideas, great questions, and then a great perspective on busyness and burnout and ways to counter that.

Alisa [00:57:24] Because when we do it well, Chris, then we're able to pour into others and to love others well when our heart is refilled. And that...

Chris [00:57:32] Is what a first fruit is. I then have the ability to be that, to use that, to give that, which is the best of me. When do we do it? Well, I love it. Way to go. Well, that's been another podcast, obviously sponsored by Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships.

Alisa [00:57:54] And Colby Gilmore of Blue Trust Wealth Associates. So Colby, thank you for your support. You guys check out Colby Gillmore. Man, he is awesome. He is so awesome.

Chris [00:58:06] And check out the other podcasts and all the things that you know we have at cmr.biola.edu and I will see you again next time.

Mandy [00:58:15] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.