In this episode, Alisa Grace is joined by guest co-host Tatum Munivez to explore how every marriage brings two cultures together, even when spouses come from similar backgrounds. They discuss how family traditions, faith practices, emotional expression, and approaches to conflict shape our expectations of marriage. Through personal stories and practical examples, they share how to replace criticism with curiosity, distinguish cultural preferences from biblical convictions, and honor extended family while creating a culture of your own. Whether you’re dating, engaged, or married, this episode offers tools to navigate differences with empathy, communicate your needs, and build meaningful traditions together.

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/EhQ93pf34xo

Resources Mentioned:

• John Gottman’s Four Horsemen – Learn about criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling, the harmful communication patterns discussed in this episode. Read more.
• Scripture References – Genesis 2:24 on leaving and cleaving, Psalm 139 on God’s intimate knowledge of us, and Philippians 2:3–4 on considering others’ needs.
• Center for Marriage and Relationships – Explore resources to help strengthen your marriage and relationships. Visit cmr.biola.edu.

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: youtube.com/@biola-cmr

Join the Conversation:

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

Guest Co-Host: In this episode, Tatum Munivez, CMR’s Communications and Marketing Manager, joins Alisa and shares personal insights from her own marriage.

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Alisa: 00:00
Every marriage brings two cultures together, and sometimes those differences are really obvious, like ethnicity, nationality, maybe language or traditions. And other times couples grow up in the same city, but they still discover that their families had completely different ways of doing life. So how often should you see extended family? What does respect look like? How do you celebrate holidays? Who makes decisions? Or maybe how do you handle conflict about money, food, faith, or hospitality? Well, in this episode of our When You Don't Match series, we'll explore what happens when two people bring different definitions of normal into marriage and how couples can honor where they came from while creating a new culture together. So stay tuned for the Art of Relationships.

Mandy: 00:55
Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

Alisa: 01:06
Well, we want to welcome you back to the Art of Relationships. And I'm Elisa Grace, your host, and you'll notice that I have a different co-host with us today. This is Tata Munives. You've seen her on here before. She's our marketing communications manager here at the Center for Marriage and Relationships. And she's going to be joining me today because Chris is out of pocket today. Not as good as Chris. You do a great job. You don't quite have the eyebrows that he has, right? That he brings to the table. Yes. As it should be. As it should be. But uh Tatum, we want to continue our series of When You Don't Quite Match. Yes. And we started that series last time, our last episode. And today I want to delve into a topic that really touches almost everybody, I think. And that's what do you do when you don't match up culturally? That's so good. Because when we talk about culture, we're talking about so much more than just your ethnicity or maybe your nationality. Right.

Speaker 4: 02:12
What are some of those different areas that that are culture, but people might not think of right off the bat that we get from culture? Like family of origin. Um culture could be different within the household, right? Like what are some things like that that people might not think of? Right.

Alisa: 02:30
Could be two families that have grown up in the same community for years, but yet they bring different traditions from their family of origin that you mentioned. Uh just even pockets of communities. Like where I grew up, there were definitely different ethnic pockets within the city that I grew up in in West Texas. But uh it could be different churches that you go to. So you're culturally different within your faith. So there's kind of all these different little nuances when we talk about culture. So let's just dig in and let's unpack this a little bit.

Speaker 4: 03:09
Amazing. Um, what are some areas where these cultural differences tend to show up once you're dating versus once you're married? And how could those different?

Alisa: 03:19
Ah, that's really good. Sometimes I think um they might show up when you're dating several, like your your different faith traditions.

Speaker 3: 03:29
Yeah.

Alisa: 03:29
Um, even different um the way you might celebrate birthdays or Christmas, holidays. But I think once you get married, what happens is that it tends to become, I think it just exposes more of the differences that were already there. Or even sometimes the degree to which we feel really passionate about those traditions or the way that we do life. Um, because a danger, I think, is that we can fall into an aspect or a perspective of we don't even realize that we hold a cultural expectation until it goes unmet. We don't even realize that it's there. To us, that's just seems the right way that you do things. Um, it could even be a, you know, when we talk about nationality, having a Western culture frame of mind, a Western worldview perspective, we don't even realize that that's Western until we talk to somebody that's not from the West.

Speaker 4: 04:31
I mean, we perceive our culture as the normal one. Right. Right? What were some things for you and Chris that maybe in your childhood you perceived as normal? And then when you were married to Chris, you're like, whoa, I'm not the only one who experienced this.

Alisa: 04:46
Yeah, well, it's funny when we we think about the way we grew up. He grew up in southern Colorado, a very blue-collar still mill town. I grew up in West Texas, which is very much part of the Bible Bell Southern Hospitality. Um, his area was very um faith-based in terms of a lot of Catholicism. So he grew up Catholic. I grew up Southern Baptist. Um very different. And even with some of those, uh alcohol was not an unusual part uh of his family, of his growing up. But growing up Southern Baptist, that was a big no-no. Yeah, in a, you know, from a Southern Baptist perspective. And even growing up that way, I'm not even sure I could have told you why. I just knew that, oh, we're Southern Baptists, we don't do that. And so that was a that was a I don't want to say was a flash point, but it was definitely a point when I found out that alcohol, you know, just social drinking, uh, not to the point of getting drunk, although that was part of his growing up before he became a Christian. But even as a Christian, alcohol usage was not a big taboo subject for him. And so when we were engaged, that's when it really came to light. And so that that was a big like, oh, you drink really? And part of that is because we dated long distance and we weren't doing day-to-day. No, it had never come up because it wasn't that big a deal for him to take it or leave it, but for me it was. So that was an area we had to navigate.

Tatum: 06:28
Was that hard for you to accept because you think my family is the right way to do things like that?

Alisa: 06:36
Yeah. Well, I think it was difficult because it was not only my family, but for me, it was an issue of being a Christian. Wow. You know, uh the the people that I knew uh as believers that I respected, that I admired, that that mentored me, that discipled me, they all held that view. And so it's not unusual that I grew up that way. That was like your entire community, yes. And everybody that I knew, like at school and stuff, that did party, that well, that did drink, it was in the context of partying and getting drunk and abusing it. Right. And so for me it was a very clear black and white, but for him, it was not quite so black and white. So I think that's part of what made it hard because it was like, oh, well, if you drink, then you know, suddenly I'm not just questioning your family of orging, I'm questioning, wow, are you really a believer? Are you really locked in with Jesus? Because I'm passionately following him. And I thought you were too. And we need to, you know, pull this out and unpack it. And so we've both grown in that that kind of area, um, where he's he he came in once he found out what a big deal it was for me. He was very willing to set it aside and say, you know what, I don't have to drink, it's not that big a deal. Yeah. And so for many, many years of our marriage, um, and we've been married 39, almost 40 years, but for several years uh at the beginning of our marriage, we just we didn't drink, we didn't have alcohol at home. We were at a Christian university that said we had to sign a statement in faith. Yeah, that's right, you're um, you know what that's like as a student at Viola. And uh, and so it wasn't that big of a deal um for him, but at some point the university did relax that stance in terms of fact in terms of faculty, not students, but faculty. And so the we had been married many years, and so that was a new opportunity to kind of revisit that and re-establish some some boundaries and some areas where okay, maybe to have a glass of wine with dinner is not, you know, the worst thing in the world. Exactly. Um, but we're definitely not going to drink to the point that you know you become inebriated that that's biblical. Right. And so that kind of brings up Tatum. How do you know the difference in your cultural differences? Sometimes they're biblical differences and sometimes they're cultural differences. Right. Tell the difference exactly. So what what do you think from your perspective, having grown up with a you're married now? Yeah, how do you and Noah navigate that? Because you've been married two years now. Two years, right? Two years, Mark. You just celebrated. So, what are some of those differences, maybe that you've had to discern, is this biblical or is this cultural? And how did you tell the difference?

Speaker 4: 09:42
I think culturally speaking, we aren't necessarily too different at face value. And like you wouldn't notice it as much when you're dating, but I've noticed uh since we've been married, the way that each of our families handled conflict and emotions was vastly different. And that is like, I guess, a little bit of culture. Um, but I think at one point the way that his family handles conflict was very much um kind of just shake it off, shove, shove it under the rug, and we won't we won't talk about it.

Alisa: 10:20
And I think no one came from the same family because that was my go-to in conflict too. Just quiet, just avoid, you know, like it doesn't matter and yes.

Speaker 4: 10:30
Exactly. And my family didn't operate that way. We brought things into the open and I I I thought it was fairly healthy. And so that was a little bit of of a cultural, familial difference, but I do think that almost bleeds into um the biblical issue too, because we're called to live in harmony with one another, and part of that is having healthy communication, conflict, discussion. And so I almost feel like they can bleed into one another, if that makes sense. Um I don't know. I can't think of very many differences that that are b that were like biblical issues for us. Do you have any that come to mind for you?

Alisa: 11:12
Well, I think when it c I think when it comes to maybe teasing it out, is I think what you were touching on is that if it's a if it's a biblical expectation or standard, then we've got to be able to go back to scripture and use that as our foundation. Is this something that Jesus taught? Is this something that God was very clear about? Um, maybe not directly, but in the context of God's word, maybe it doesn't say specifically, well, okay, let's use the topic of abortion.

Speaker 3: 11:46
Okay.

Alisa: 11:47
Okay. That's a that's a big hot button culturally in the United States, right? And so while you go to God's word and you don't see the word abortion, but you do see the biblical mandate mandate that thou shall not commit murder, right? And that uh Psalm 139, that we are fearfully and wonderfully made. When we were in our mother's wombs, the Lord saw us and fashioned us and imbued us, right? He had a plan for our life since before the foundations of the earth were laid. He had pre uh preordained what our days would be like. So there's some pretty strong admonitions, we believe, against abortion from a biblical perspective. But that takes going back, knowing God's word specifically and the overall context of it versus what's a societal norm for where we've grown up? What's culturally societally accepted? Like um like another one might be um sleeping together before you get married, living together before you get married, which is also unfortunately, we're seeing a lot more of that happen in in the Christian world. Yeah, you know, um, and so that's when yeah, culturally it's a societal norm, it's happening more and more, but yet we go back, and that's a biblical expectation um to not go down that road. And so I think we all we just have to tease out, go back to the foundation. What does God's word say? Is there a specific con uh verse that you can go to that you can look that without trying to can you know contextualize and just push pull out that one scripture, but you want to see um a whole context of what is pleasing to God based on his character, on what we know, would this be pleasing to the Lord?

Speaker 4: 13:42
I think that's really hard for couples in some respects because there's almost this emotion attached to their culture.

Alisa: 13:50
A lot of emotion.

Speaker 4: 13:51
A lot of emotion. And when you come together two people with heavy emotion on both sides from the way that they experience their culture, that can be super tough to tease out and like having the discipline to look at it unbiased with the whole view of scripture um is really tough. What advice would you give to a couple who is having difficulty with just like that that visceral gut feeling like I don't want to, I don't want to move from my culture to come together? And I think part of that is the the leave and cleave mandate and becoming a family of your own is really tough. So, what would you say to maybe an early married couple is having a hard time bringing their cultures together?

Alisa: 14:38
Yeah, I think one of the first things that we need to do is to remember the principle to always be a student of your spouse. Be curious instead of immediately being critical that my way is the right way, and here's why you're wrong. And I need to persuade you and convince you why you're wrong, right? But to be curious about that and to ask questions. Questions are always gonna be your friend, Tatum. If you and Noah are knocking heads about something, yeah. And so you want to be curious and and ask them, you know, and to come at it with a heart posture of humility, I think, first of all, is before I can really parse out what's going on your heart, in your heart, sometimes I need to do that work in my own heart too. It's why is that pushing my button that you're holding this view? Why is this such a big deal to me? What's what's going on with me? And maybe getting time alone with the Lord to to pull that out and say, search me, oh God, try me, know my anxious thoughts. Lord, why do I have this visceral gul gut check when this issue comes up about hospitality or about the way we spend money, or about when we're getting ready to have kids, or are we even gonna have kids? You know, it can be any of these issues. Uh, whose family we're gonna spend Christmas with versus Thanksgiving? How worst it is. That's tough. And you know, it's tough for parents too. Yeah, it's it's tough on all sides. But I think the first thing you've got to do is check your own heart and say, why is this such a big deal for me, Lord? Is this something that is a hill that I need to die on because it's morally important? Or is this something that I need to approach with some humility and being willing to say, you know what, maybe I've got this wrong. Maybe just because my family did it this way doesn't mean it's the only way or that it's the right way. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 16:49
Oh, go ahead. I was just gonna say I remember when Noah and I were early married, um, I was noticing he led in like he was very in tune with his emotions, and he still is. Um, but the way that my dad parented and the way that my relationship with him was and how I perceived him is he was very steady and he um compartmentalized feelings. Like, I'm gonna grieve when I'm ready to grieve. I'm gonna be emotional when I'm ready to be emotional. And he was really able to like parse this out and very steady, and Noah feels all of his emotions, wears his heart on his sleeve. And that was like, whoa, like this is not the way you're supposed to lead. Like that, I I felt that like you're doing it wrong. Like, this is not how you're supposed to be as a husband. Like, I'm supposed to be the emotional one and you're supposed to be the steady one type of thing. And I remember him saying, like, why do you hold me to the expectation of your dad? Or why are you comparing me to your dad when we're vastly different people? One, he's been married for 27 years with all this experience for one, and two, we just have different personalities in the way we process emotions, and I don't think either is is right. Um, and that was so hard for me to hear because I my dad's my hero, and I was like, hmm, that's a great question.

Alisa: 18:11
So, how did you process that when Noah put that out there? And that was a hard thing to hear. What did you do with that?

Speaker 4: 18:19
I think it took me a second, but realizing that the way that my parents or my dad did things isn't the right answer all the time, and that he doesn't have to be exactly how my dad was. Like they're different people, and that is a good thing. I'm not married to my dad. Like, Noah's his own person, and he has strengths my dad doesn't have, and my dad has strengths that Noah doesn't have, and that doesn't make one way of doing things right. And I've found I love that soft side of Noah so much after I was able to accept that he doesn't need to measure up to like this un this invisible expectation that I had going into it. And I've seen so much fruit come from that that softer, more emotional side of him that I didn't experience with my dad as much, if that makes sense. And I think I was I was able to see the beauty in it once I got over that expectation and not holding him to a standard that wasn't fair in the first place.

Alisa: 19:23
Well, I I think what I hear you saying is that you were able to maybe shift your perspective a little bit on it in front of instead of it being uh the way I do it is right or the way my dad did it was right, the way you're doing it is wrong. Yeah. And that's a little that's uncomfortable for me, and I don't like that. Instead, what you did is it sounds like you shifted your perspective a little bit, and instead of seeing it as a detriment, something, a problem to be fixed, but now you actually view it as a difference that you can appreciate.

Speaker 4: 20:01
Very much so. And it takes that the willingness to have a perspective shift because I think for the first few months I didn't want to, because I wasn't ready for that that change deep down, I think. Um but once you're able to take or have humility enough to to take the perspective shift, then so much beauty came from it once you're able to appreciate that about the other person. And I think you see them in a whole different light that is so good for your marriage, instead of seeing them through a lens of like, you're not good enough to like, oh, I love this about you. Um, and I feel like it really changes the dynamic of your marriage in a big way.

Alisa: 20:43
Yeah. Was that how far into being married did that shift happen for you?

Speaker 4: 20:48
I feel like it was the first few months, right? Like oh wow, so it equipped. No, like that's when I realized that I was having that comparison issue. Um, maybe even in engagement, but mostly I feel like the first few months of marriage. And for me, it really caused me to reflect once Noah said, I feel like you're comparing me to your dad. And that was like a oh like I don't want you to ever have to feel like you have to measure up to someone and not feel like you're good enough. Yeah. Um, and so I think those those words have power, right? Oh and so when he said that, that I think that's when what really caused me to do the reflection. And that was maybe six months in.

Alisa: 21:34
Yeah.

Speaker 4: 21:34
Yeah.

Alisa: 21:35
Well, I what I love about that example, Tatum, is that um I think you guys were showing two things. As and with this particular example with Noah sharing something, well, that you shared something that bothered you. He shared how that made him feel. And that's all those are hard conversations. Yeah. But I love the way it sounds like you guys were communicating in a really healthy way. The I love Use that formula. I notice, I feel, and what I need or what would be helpful. So I notice that you respond really differently from my dad. And when you do that, I feel, I don't know, even no comfortable. I feel uncomfortable. I feel uncertain, like that's not right. And uh and then and then he was able to receive that and for him to say, you know, I notice that when you're uncomfortable, that sounds like you're comparing me to your dad. Yeah. And that makes me feel like I don't measure up. Okay, so first of all, y'all had really good communication and conflict management. You presented it, you weren't angry, you weren't accusatory, but you both came with an open heart to hear each other. You didn't get defensive, you didn't get critical, uh, you didn't um uh, let's see, stonewall where where you want to run away, like, yeah, whatever, Tatum. You never think I'll measure up to your dad. I don't even want to talk about, right? That's with drawing stonewalling. And that's one of the four horsemen that John Gottman, the leading marital researcher, talks about that is so detrimental to relationships, uh, the criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, and the fourth one would be content. So if you were to look down at Noah about the way he processed grief, as though you like you don't measure up. You don't measure up to my dad. In fact, you don't measure up to me, too. And you, you know, if you were to consider yourself as superior to him because of that. You guys did not do that, uh, but you came with an open heart. And I love that you were willing to examine your own heart in that too. It is, it is, but you know, that's that's the Jesus way, right? That's the picking up your cross because he God never called us to do only what was easy and comfortable. In fact, he called cause calls us to pick up our cross, to die to ourselves, our way of seeing life, that my cultural way of doing things has been that uh I, you know, in our uh in our marriage, and this is one that actually went on for a long time. We were not as nearly as on the ball as you and Noah and all of you guys in class. Well, so we've had to over the years, we've learned it the hard way, but I'm I'm just so grateful that we have. But one of the issues for us that I hear with a lot of couples is um Chris is very much an introvert. I'm much more of an extrovert, right? So he recharges by being alone or being away from big crowds. So, like going to church on Sunday morning, well, he will enjoy going. He loves hearing the message, he loves being challenged spiritually and intellectually with the message. Uh, it's draining for him. Yeah. So as soon as that's that sermon is over, the last hymn or the last worship song has been sung, he is making a beeline for the car and getting in the car. Yeah. But for me as an extrovert, I'm like, oh wow, this is awesome. I also happened to be on the on the staff at the church at the time as a director of women's ministries. And so I loved visiting with people. This is when I would connect socially with the people that we do church with. Uh, I want to hear what's going on with your life. Hey, I saw in your post that, you know, that you know, you were you had a kidney stone this week. What are you doing now at the hospital? You know, I want to catch up. Or somebody would stop and say, Hey, uh, could you pray for me? And and I don't want to rush them because I know Chris is waiting. So that really became a point of contention for us. I would finally get back to the car 20 or 30 minutes later, and he would be sitting in the car just huffing and puffing the whole way home. So he was ticked off. And I'm ticked off because I know he's mad at me and rushing me. And so we just had this conflict going that church for me was socializing and that brought me life. But it for him, to a certain extent, it was draining, and he just needed to withdraw. And so, in learning to appreciate those differences for each other, uh, we had to come up with a really creative solution instead of trying to change each other, I can value the balance that okay, if we cut down the time that I'm socializing, I still have some time to socialize because I need that. And he recognized that. But I also realized that it makes you have to wait for 30 minutes, and that's not fun either. I wouldn't want to have to do that. And so by being able to put ourselves in each other's shoes, take each other's perspective, validate that, hey, you have a right to that perspective. You know, you have a different experience, and that's okay. Uh, that doesn't mean it's right or wrong, it's just different, and different is okay. But understanding uh maybe the backstory. I think uh in order to overcome these differences culturally, the way we do things is we really need to take time to get each other's backstory.

Speaker 4: 27:34
Be curious about that.

Alisa: 27:35
Yes, be curious, don't curse, but but take the moment to say, I really want to hear your heart on this. Talk what's going on, you know, when you get um uncomfortable with me being more emotional, wearing my my emotions on my sleeve. What where does that come from? Yeah, and then that gives you time to explore, oh, you know, I think maybe because my dad did it differently. And you know, and then he's taking time to get your backstory instead of criticizing you for being uncomfortable with it. He got curious, what's going on with you? Where did that come from? And sometimes that takes a stopping, and like I said, to take a moment to pause and say, why is this such a big deal? Because maybe you don't even know where that comes from. Hey friends, we have got some big news. The Center for Marriage and Relationships is now part of Talbot School of Theology, right here at Viola University.

Speaker 1: 28:38
We're thrilled, Lisa, with uh because Talbot's been equipping leaders uh, you know, in biblical truth for decades. And uh now together we get to expand our resources for marriages and relationships.

Alisa: 28:50
Yeah, it's exciting because research shows that couples with ongoing support and biblical guidance are far more likely to thrive. And that's exactly what makes this partnership possible.

Speaker 1: 29:01
Yeah, so if you're a student, pastor, just hunger to grow, we want you to know this is only the beginning of what God is doing through Telbut and the CMR.

Alisa: 29:09
Yeah, you can learn more. Just check out the show notes for details.

Speaker 4: 29:17
And I think that creates room for empathy.

Alisa: 29:20
Oh gosh. That that's the key right there. Because when you take the time to ask the other person questions, to be curious, where's this coming from for you? And you want to do it with the right heart posture, right? Not where is this coming from? Instead of that, I'm gonna say, I really care about you. I love you, and I want to be tender with your heart and your feelings and respect that. And so tell me a little bit where this is coming from. You get that backstory, and as you learn more of the other person's backstory, it it be when you care for that person, it really elicits more empathy, right? You're putting yourself in their shoes, feeling it the way they feel it. And when you do that, it makes you much more compassionate toward them. And when you feel that compassion, you're much more willing to change your own behavior and accommodate the other person.

Speaker 4: 30:15
Give that compassion back.

Alisa: 30:16
Yes. And in a healthy relationship, that happens mutually, right? You're having compassion for me, and you're willing to alter or change some of your behavior, your traditions that mean a lot to you, your way of doing life. Uh, and I'm willing to change mine and meet you halfway. And so, really, I think the the key aspects of that, Tatum, you said are being curious, perspective taking, you want to put yourself in the other person's shoes, feel it the way they feel it, be willing to validate that, yeah, that's a valid perspective. I might feel that way too. Yeah. And then be willing to accommodate the other person and to do that mutually for each other. Because if one of you is constantly accommodating the other person and it's not being reciprocated, yeah, then that's not fair. And that's not going to be a very happy relationship over the years.

Speaker 4: 31:17
What would you say maybe to the spouse who is always accommodating and maybe who has a partner who won't budge on their cultural preferences? That's a really hard place to be.

Alisa: 31:29
That is a very hard place to be. That's very hard. Okay. Well, I think we've um we've got to go back to the self-examination, right? But Lord, and am I always accommodating but to a point that it's unhealthy? I mean, because it could be if if you have um an approach, a heart posture that is um peace at any cost, well, that's too costly long term for a relationship, and that is not going to be healthy. And so is there a time that I need to be willing to stand up a little bit more and speak up more for my perspective? And uh and so to spend that time and then sit with the Lord and see what he has to say about that, and then examine Lord, is this a reasonable request?

Speaker 5: 32:25
Yeah.

Alisa: 32:25
I mean, am I being unreasonable? I don't think so. I think this is pretty reasonable to suggest that, you know, we spend every Christmas with your parents, and we're we're never there with mine. And I think it's it's a fair thing uh that feels unfair. And I think it's not unreasonable to to suggest that why don't we do this Christmas, we'll do it with your parents, and then next Christmas, let's spend it with mine. Okay. So you got to be willing to evaluate is it a reasonable request? Yeah, I think it is. And if it is, you have to be willing to speak up. And that's tough for those of us that are avoiders, right? But that's when you use that I notice, I feel I need. I notice we always tend yeah, okay, I just broke one of my rules. We want to take out the phrase always and never because that's not necessarily true. Yeah, okay, so just take those words out of your vocabulary. So I notice that we we seem to spend Christmas each year with your family. And that feels a little unfair to me. I feel like I'm really missing that time with my extended family and some meaningful traditions. And uh it would be helpful if we could maybe begin to alternate. So I tell you what, this year, why don't we go with your family and next year we'll go with mine? And then if your spouse is is just not willing to do that, oh, I'm just gonna miss it. It's too hard. I love my traditions, or my traditions are better. Yours don't matter as much. I mean, it can go from all the way of, yeah, gosh, I hadn't considered your perspective, and yeah, we probably should, to, well, I haven't considered your perspective, and frankly, I don't care about your perspective. Then you've got some bigger issues going on that are gonna need to be addressed. But I think you you you need to speak up. So is it a hill you want to die on? Is it reasonable? Be willing to speak up, and then before you even go into that conversation Tatum, I we always recommend the three-piece that we practice the before hard conversations. You pause, you pray, then you proceed. You pause, that's where you're doing that self-examination. Lord, what do you think about this? What do you want to say about this situation? Uh, you push the pause button, you're not just going in hot and you know, you're coming in at a 13 on a scale of one to 10 because you're upset about it. But you're also not being a limp pansy and just constantly giving in because you don't want to cause waves. That's not healthy either. And eventually you're gonna have kids and you want to teach them healthy communication and conflict resolution. You want to role model that. So pause, pray, ask the Lord for courage, ask the Lord for perspective, a willingness to be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to get angry on both your parts. And Lord, will you help my spouse to truly listen and consider my perspective? Um Lord, just go before us, prepare both our hearts to be open, to be kind, to be considerate, and putting Philippians 2, 3, and 4 into perspective, right? To not just consider your own way of doing things, but to consider the other person and to put consider their needs ahead of your own. Yeah, right.

Speaker 4: 36:01
What are some ways to kind of wrap up everything we've been saying? Family obviously plays a huge role in culture. What are some ways that people can honor both families with how having the families themselves dictate your own marriage? And like the idea behind creating your own culture, your own traditions, your own family, because that's right, it's hard to detach from a family you've been with for 20 plus years and combined with someone else. What would it mean to have your own culture with your spouse?

Alisa: 36:35
That's such a great question because Taylor, it can uh it's not always just the the two, the husband and wife involved in the marriage, right? Oftentimes the pressure um for the decisions that you're making are coming externally from other family members. You know, you may have parents that really want you there for that holiday, yeah. Uh, because their Christmas isn't the same if all their kids and all their little chickies aren't there. Yeah. And so they want it, they want all their kids, and it has to be that day because Christmas just isn't Christmas. And so if you care about us, Tatum, and you love your daddy and me, you're gonna be there, or else that means you don't care about us. Fine. We just won't have Christmas if you and they and they can be like a number one guilt trippers. And so that's gonna be really hard, especially if you're a people pleaser. If you've grown up with that kind of parent, oftentimes you become a people pleaser because you're just trying to keep peace in the household for the ones that's guilt tripping everybody. So uh I think the first thing that you have to do is you have to go back to Genesis, right? Um, biblical foundation that we want us always start with. Uh, going back to Genesis 2 is that God created marriage between one man and one woman. Not one man, one woman, oh, and his mommy and daddy, or her brothers and sisters. It's one man and one woman. And it gave us the admonition that we're to leave our mother and father and to cleave to them. And so we are in a covenantal relationship with our spouse, not with our mom, not with our dad, not with our siblings. We are in a covenantal relationship there. We have made vows to that person to love them, to honor them and cherish them, and to cherish this new entity of the us that we have, right? And that comes, that will supersede honoring your mother and father. And can I just say that honoring mother and father doesn't necessarily mean always doing what they want you to do? It just doesn't mean that honoring can mean, mom, we love you. Okay, first of all, let's come back and we are having a conversation as husband and wife, right? What do we want our holidays to look like? And that might start with saying Tatum. Okay, let's pretend I'm Noah. Tatum. Tell me a little bit about the holidays. What holiday traditions are really important to you? And just tell me a couple of those. And so tell me what those might be.

Speaker 4: 39:23
Um, I really love my time at Christmas with my family because um on Christmas Eve we always do a family run. And I know you might not like that, but I love it. And I always make a pie with my uncle, and I put on the um PJ scavenger hunt for my little cousins. Yeah. And I feel like I just have so many traditions that I cherish there. But um, Thanksgiving, we don't have as many traditions. So I'm I'm open to maybe doing that with your family, or maybe we we switch off what traditions are important to you.

Alisa: 39:59
Oh, I like that. So, what I hear you saying is that some that are really important to you that mean a lot to you are the family PJs when when y'all do that, or the family run that you have, and that that time with your family is really just makes Christmas for you. Is that right? That's right. And what would it feel like to you? Um, what would that be like for you if if let's say one of these, if like the pajama party thing and the family run, what would that feel like for you if you didn't get to do that?

Speaker 4: 40:38
I think I would feel really sad um to miss out on those traditions just because I love traditions. That's like my favorite thing about holidays is the traditions. I would feel really sad that I don't get to participate and that you don't get to come in and participate that with me in that. Um, but I'm I'm open to giving that up for you and experiencing what your traditions might look like too. I'm I'm not I'm not holding on to it like a golden calf per se. But I I truly love that. I desire that you would experience that with me.

Alisa: 41:17
Ah. So what I hear you saying is that it would be really cool from your perspective for me to actually join in and get to experience that like you experience that. Is that right? Yes. But I also heard you say that you're open to my family's traditions, what you know, what my family experience is coming from, and that you're also open to maybe creating some new ones that are unique and individual just to us.

Speaker 3: 41:45
Or just us.

Alisa: 41:46
Is that is that did I get that right?

Speaker 3: 41:48
That's right.

Alisa: 41:48
Okay, very good. Ah, that was excellent. Okay. And so let me ask you this. If you could only, out of all the traditions that you have, if you could only do two of them, which are your top two that you absolutely just oh would be crushed if you could if you could only pick two, which ones do you want to make sure that if we, you know, if we only have a limited amount of time doing mine and yours, what top two would you choose to do?

Speaker 4: 42:20
I think my top two would both fall on Christmas Eve, which is the run in the PJs and everything that happens on Christmas Eve. So I'm because those are really important to me, I'm I'm almost wondering if we could split time and and do maybe December 20th through 24th with my family and then drive to your family for Christmas Day and do Christmas Day through New Year's with your family. What would you think about that?

Alisa: 42:51
I think that sounds really reasonable.

Speaker 3: 42:53
I think that's like it.

Alisa: 42:55
You're welcome, Noah. Yeah, we had this exact same conversation because my family was in Texas, his was in Colorado. And so we would spend the week before Christmas up to Christmas with one family, and then drive the day after Christmas and spend New Year's. And we alternated every other year. Yeah. So and then Thanksgiving we just did on our own because we were all the way out here in California. We did your own tradition. We did. Uh yeah, we were forced to. But yeah, but it was not easy giving those up. And so my heart really goes out to you. I feel I feel that for you because you know, there's even some aspect this far into having my own family that that is very nostalgic, yeah, that I miss not having. Um, and that's okay.

Speaker 3: 43:44
Yeah.

Alisa: 43:46
It's not comfortable, it's not fun, but I'm not dying. Yeah. And we've actually created some really wonderful traditions on our own.

Speaker 4: 43:53
I think that's something that like Noah and I can even work on as we look towards having a family, because if you're Always attached to like what your family of origin traditions are. You're never gonna have any for your own new immediate family. That's something that we can work on is creating traditions for ourselves. Like maybe Christmas morning is just with us, and we'll go over for brunch after. Yeah. To join in on everything else. Um, because I want our kids and our family to be a unit and not just parts of our now extended family, which is crazy to say. Like that's a good reminder too that your parents, your siblings are now your extended family.

Alisa: 44:36
Yes, they are.

Speaker 4: 44:38
And your spouse is your immediate family.

Alisa: 44:40
Your immediate family. I'm so glad you said that. That's yeah, that's a and that's an important mind shift, a reframe that has to happen. That's very good. So now if you have parents that are putting pressure on you and you're talking about how do you navigate that? Well, now that we've had that really good conversation about what your expectations are, your dreams, your desires, and uh what you need, and we've talked about mine, and we've created our own uh solution, our own uh pathway forward. What do we want to be our own traditions? Which ones do we want to keep from your family, which ones from mine? Now we need to have that important conversation with our families. And so you're gonna have the conversation with your mom and dad, and I'm gonna have my conversation with my mom and dad, right? That's really important. And um, and so what you want to do at that point is you want to have a really good open conversation way ahead of time before Christmas. Not the week before, not the week before, not the day before, certainly not when you get there, right? But maybe the month before. Hey, mom, I would love to just have a quick conversation about what Christmas is gonna look like. And I think the first thing we recommend the sandwich method, right? You have the positive, the affirmation of their perspective. You have the the meat, which is kind of the hard decision, the boundaries, the the the new traditions you want to do. Then you put it, the the sandwich, the other piece of bread is you close it off with an affirmation, right? So the sandwich method. So the affirmation is mom, I just love the way you and dad have worked so hard to create memorable holiday traditions for our family. I feel like they just really made a fun childhood for me. And if they made those traditions mean a lot to me. And I just appreciate that you guys did that for us as kids and that that was really meaningful. And not but, and here we're moving into the meat of it, and this is the harbor. And Noah and I have had a conversation uh about now that we are our immediate family since we've gotten married, we've been having some really deep conversations and meaningful conversations about what we want our family traditions to look like. And so I just want to let you know ahead of time what we are gonna be able to do. And so we're gonna be able to come December 20th through Christmas Eve and participate in the pajama thing. We're gonna be there for the family fun run, and it's gonna be awesome, and we're so excited to do that. And then so we can also honor Noah's side of the family and his traditions. On Christmas Day, we're gonna get up and after breakfast, we're gonna drive and we're gonna go spend the next couple of days with his family. And I know that that's probably gonna be disappointing to hear. And, you know, if I'm honest, it's hard for me too to give some of this up. But Noah's very important to me. And our new marriage, our new family, our new traditions are very important to me. And I appreciate you listening today. And again, I just appreciate everything that you've taught me about celebrating and honoring the holiday because I'm gonna be taking a lot of that, what I've learned from you, into my new family. And so I just appreciate that.

Speaker 3: 48:20
Beautiful.

Alisa: 48:22
So there you go, the sandwich method. But you notice I I didn't say what do you think about that? Oh, that's good. I didn't say, is that okay with you? I'm letting them know very with lovingly yet firmly, those firm boundaries, what we are able to do to protect what we have. Not to keep them out, but to protect what we have.

Speaker 4: 48:43
Go good.

Alisa: 48:44
And if they argue and they push back, you know, you can say, I can appreciate that this is really hard. And it's hard for me too. Nevertheless, this is what Noah and I have decided to do. And they keep going back, they keep coming back and pressing back. You say, I can understand, I I I can validate your perspective. Yeah, I will, I'm not gonna like it when my kids don't, you know, aren't able to be with us either. That's not gonna be fun. Nevertheless, always come back to that phrase, nevertheless, this is what we're gonna do. And you just have to stick to your guns. And you'll probably hang up the phone and burst into tears because you know, that was your cultural, yeah, it is hard. But that's the beauty of marriage that God doesn't just use the easy, fun things to make us better people, you know, to make us better spouses, to make us better disciples of Jesus. But it's the hard things that rub off the rough edges that make those rough edges smoother. It's that iron-sharpening iron. Uh, because when God is using these hard circumstances to cut like a new facet into the diamond of our character. And to do that, it it takes pressure, takes heat, takes a sharp edge, and those things hurt.

Speaker 5: 50:10
Yeah.

Alisa: 50:11
But ultimately what happens is that he is cultivating a whole new aspect uh of that diamond, a new facet on that diamond of our character that's gonna cause us to sparkle and shine in a way that the world can see, the way Noah and I, as Tatum, are doing our marriage differently, the way we're protecting our immediate thing and doing it differently, uh, the way we handle our differences culturally, uh, the way we do it different. Wow, how do you guys do that? How do you not get angry about that? How do you put up with that? Well, then that becomes a springboard for you to share. You know, the only way I can do that is to go to God with my frustrations. And he gives me, he's at work in me, Philippians 2.14. God's at work in me, giving me the desire to do his will, which is to honor my husband, honor my wife, to love them, to put them first. And he does that for me too. And we have a marriage based on that. We both come at it from that perspective. And God gives us the ability to love each other really well in ways that we wouldn't be able to in our own strength and on our own. So if you'd like to know more about that relationship with God and how you could have that too, I would love to talk with you about it. That's so good. So it becomes a spring, your relationship becomes a springboard for the soul. It's missional marriage, right? Living out your marriage in a way that it actually becomes your mission filled with other people because they see how differently you do it.

Speaker 4: 51:54
And every single person has cultural differences, everyone, personality differences or financial differences. Like everyone is different. Every marriage experiences, every marriage experiences this. Yeah. And so you get to be a light and example through that refining. That's so good.

Alisa: 52:11
Thanks for sharing your wisdom. Yes, Tatum, thanks for joining me today. Yes, this was really fun. And I think we might ought to do one more. Okay. Okay. So we uh Tatum and I are gonna get together. We might hash out here at a whole nother episode of this because this was really fun. Yeah. So thanks for filling in. You did a great job, and we're so glad that you joined us on the Art of Relationships. Uh, we are part of Biola University Talbot School of Theology, and we would love for you to check out all of our resources, so many of them free on our website at cmr.viola.edu. And then we will see you next time on the Art of Relationships.

Mandy: 52:54
We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on knowledge and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.viola.edu. We'll see you next time on the art of relationships.