Top 6 Relationship Killers with Guest Willa Williams

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In this episode, Alisa Grace and special guest Willa Williams, a licensed marriage and family therapist, discuss the “Top 6 Relationship Killers” that often hinder our closest connections. They explore common destructive habits, such as taking things personally, assuming the worst, and failing to show empathy, offering practical insights to help listeners build stronger, healthier relationships. Whether you're navigating friendships, family dynamics, or romantic partnerships, this episode provides valuable advice to transform your interactions.

Resources Mentioned:

1. The Meaning of Marriage by Timothy Keller – Explores the principles of speaking truth in love, helping couples build deeper, more authentic relationships.
2. Gottman’s Four Horsemen – An overview of harmful behaviors in relationships, with tools for recognizing and replacing these behaviors. 

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• Twitter: twitter.com/biolacmr

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are dedicated to helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

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Mandy [00:00:00] Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

 

Alisa [00:00:11] Hey, welcome to another episode of The Art of Relationships. I'm Alisa Grace. And today I'm missing my co-host. My my handsome husband, Chris Grace. He was not able to be here today for recording. So we brought in are next on the lineup. Our bench is deep and it's my very good friend Willow Williams. So will a Welcome to the art of relationships. Thank you. Yeah, I love having Willa on here because she is an expert at relationships. She's a licensed marriage and family therapist at Biola University. She works with us at the Center for Marriage and Relationships here at Baylor. And that's the group that actually produces this podcast. And so we're delighted to have you today.

 

Willa [00:00:59] Will you? I'm so happy to be here.

 

Alisa [00:01:01] Well, we are going to have a great time because we have a really special topic that we want to talk about today. And I don't know, maybe is it in honor of Halloween? I don't think would say it's in honor of Halloween, but we're going to call it the top six relationship killers. What are some top things habits that we have? Will that kill our relationships? And we're talking about whether these are relationships, whether it's marriage, friendships, your parent child, your coworkers. We're going to cover the gamut today.

 

Willa [00:01:32] These these will apply to any relationship that you really care about you are going to be involved in.

 

Alisa [00:01:37] All right. So you want to just jump right in? Sure. Okay. So what we're going to do is I brought three today and Willa brought three. And so we're going to take turns introducing our killer, so to speak. Okay. So, Willie, do you want to go first? You got everyone. Okay, bring it on.

 

Willa [00:01:54] Okay, so the first thing I want to talk about is a major relationship killer is when we take things personally, when we have an issue with our friend or a partner, and we tend to take it really personally, whatever they say. And that really leads to us being really sensitive. We begin to have a negative lens. We begin to see everything that they say that they do through that lens. We interpret it in a negative way, and it really narrows us. It binds us. It kind of keeps us very constricted in how we're able to respond well to them. And so if we do this regularly, we can become that friend that people feel like they have to walk on eggshells around that very sensitive and caring what they say. Right? Because we're going to take it the wrong way and we're going to run with it.

 

Alisa [00:02:42] You know, I would say, Willa, even in my relationship with Chris, in our marriage, we've been married over 30 years now. One of the big changing factors, I would say probably about 15, 18 years ago that made such a difference in our relationship is exactly what you're talking about. In fact, I can remember when this was finally beginning to click for me in particular, I found that really the issue was for me, I was taking things very personally. Whenever Chris would be upset about something short, you know, in his demeanor and his attitude about something, I took it very personal. Like, what did I do? Well, how come I can't seem to do anything right? And I remember specifically one time I was taking our daughter to her gymnastics class, and I always loved to go and sit and watch her. But Chris always loves for me to come home and have that quiet time for him. And so there is a kind of a conflict of interest, you could say. And this was a pattern that repeated itself in in numerous ways in our marriage. But for sure, we were walking out the door and Tom Ham taken Natalie to to gymnastics. And so we'll be back, you know, in just a little bit. And the first thing he said is, what time are you coming back? You're coming right back. Right.

 

Willa [00:04:03] A neutral comment.

 

Alisa [00:04:04] Yes, but that is not how I interpreted it. No. What I heard him say was, I want you to come back. You don't get to decide what you do. I'm deciding what you do. And you have to do what I want you to do. Now, he didn't say those words, but that's how I took it personally. Yes. My gosh. And when I finally learned this concept about not taking things so personal and then also learning to ask a question that, hey, you're not really asking what time I'm coming back. What I hear you saying is that you want me to come back, is that right? And as we began to unpack that a little bit, at first he said, I don't know why it's so important to me for you to come back. But as we talked through it and processed it, what we began to realize was, you know, when he was in junior high, his dad left his mom and abandoned the family. And so that left a scar on him. That left a filter. Instances for him. Yes. Very sensitive place that it was easily poked. It's like he said, I know logically that you're coming back, but it just feels like you're not going to. And I don't know why. And and so once I learned to realize, you're not trying to tell me what to do, you're actually expressing that you're feeling a little insecure, like I'm abandoning you. Even though he knew logically and factually, that wasn't what's happening. He felt like that. And so it gave me a whole new depth of compassion and empathy for him that I could bear that with him and talk through it and, you know, in a different way with him that I'd like to go sit with her, but I'm willing to come back if you would, you know, if that's better for you. And he then it would begin to pick up on what he was doing and was like, no, no, no, you go stay. But yeah, that was a game changer. Was just learning not to take it so personal, right?

 

Willa [00:06:08] Yeah, because it really does limit you in how you can respond and how you even feel about that person, how you feel about yourself. Because everything is always then so negative.

 

Alisa [00:06:17] So how do you fight that?

 

Willa [00:06:19] Yeah. You know, it's also really important, I think, to realize I love how you are touching on that, that sometimes, you know, we take it personally, but actually, that had really nothing to do with you. It was more about his own sensitivities getting triggered. And so if we can just stop for a second, think, okay, this may not have anything to do with me, so I can if it is about me, I can deal with that. But I'm going to set that aside for right now. And instead, it sounds kind of cheesy, but I don't want to be furious. I want to be curious. I want to ask questions and figure out what's happening for this person that they would have that sort of reaction or why they would want and they'd make that comment or what's it about for them? And just coming at it from a place of being open and curious and just wanting to to figure out what's happening for them. And one of the things that helps me some of this is hard. It can be really hard, especially if you have sort of like a history with your partner of having those kinds of comments. And so I got this example. This is a true situation. I got this from. I'm doing some training with the Couples Institute, with Ellen Bader, Dr. Ellen later. She's amazing. And she was talking about this couple that came in and they were really struggling and the wife did not believe in divorce. And they were they were talking together. And the husband said to her, I want to know, what do you really think about our marriage or what do you think about me? How do you feel about us? And she said, Do you really want to know? He said, Yes. And she said, Well, you know, I don't believe in divorce, so I pray for your death every day.

 

Alisa [00:07:55] She did not. Are you serious? This is.

 

Willa [00:08:00] True. She said that. And to his credit. To his credit, he decided I'm not going to take it personal. I'm not going to be furious. I'm going.

 

Alisa [00:08:09] That's pretty personal. I want you to hold on.

 

Willa [00:08:13] Let me let me. My gosh. So he didn't take it personal. He said, okay, I'm going to be curious because what he understood was it wasn't. So. Yes, in one sense it was about him, but it wasn't so much about him as much as it was about her trying to grapple with the depth of what she was feeling. She was feeling stuck. She was feeling trapped. She had no way out. And that's what came to her mind, to be able to describe the depth of her feeling so he could hold on to that piece and be curious and ask questions. And that was a game changer. That was the thing that saved her marriage because then she realized, well, I can tell him anything and he's okay with it. Yeah. And I offer that. I know it's a bit eye opening, but I offer that because I work with people. I say, Listen, your partner is not coming anywhere close to that, Right? So if they if he could not take that personal, be encouraged what they're telling you, you can not take that personal because she's not saying she should brace for your death. You can take it as. Okay. They're trying to describe to me how they're feeling. So I can be curious about that. And I want to explore that with them and help them figure it out.

 

Alisa [00:09:20] So what I hear you saying, honey, is you're not happy with me right now. Yeah.

 

Willa [00:09:25] That nicer way to say that would be good information.

 

Alisa [00:09:28] That's really good. But I like that. So number one, top relationship killer is don't take things so personally. Don't be furious. Be curious. I love that. Ooh, I've written that one down. I like that. Okay, so are you ready for number two? Ready? Okay. This is my top relationship killer is when you say whatever is on your mind without a filter because, quote, That's just the way I am groomed. My gosh. Ouch. You know, don't we all know people that will just say bluntly, whatever is on their mind, whatever their viewpoint is, and they don't couch it, they don't qualify it. They just put it out there. But they try to justify it by saying, well, that's just who I am, you know? So if you want to be friends with me, you want to be married, well then they just hate me or leave me. And to me, I what comes to mind is a quote by Timothy Keller. Tim Keller wrote this awesome book called The Meaning of Marriage. And what he does is he he calls to mind the verse that says that we are to speak the truth, but do it in love from Ephesians, write, speak the truth and love. Well, what he says about that is that when we offer love without truth, it's sentimentality. It supports a sin, it affirms us, but it keeps us in denial about our flaws. But when we speak truth without love, he says, that's harshness and it gives us information. But it does it in a way that we can't really hear it.

 

Willa [00:11:08] Can't take it in.

 

Alisa [00:11:09] You can't take it in because immediately you just feel attacked. You feel you feel like you're backed into a corner and you're ready. You have to fight and defend yourself, right?

 

Willa [00:11:21] Fight or flight.

 

Alisa [00:11:21] Right, Exactly. And so instead, what would be the counter of that? Well, what would you counsels your couples?

 

Willa [00:11:29] Well, I. I just want to add one thing. I think it's okay to say this, but I think when we say that, it's like we have free license to do whatever we want. And to me, it feels like that's emotional laziness.

 

Alisa [00:11:41] Explain that. What do you mean?

 

Willa [00:11:43] Well, I don't want to make the effort to try to say it in a way that you could hear it. I just want be able to say whatever I think without any any care for the consequences or the fallout. So I'm just going to go ahead. I'm not going to make the effort in the work to think about how I can word that in a kind and thoughtful way. So it's just it's emotional laziness. And, you know, by by accommodating to our partner and saying things in a way that they can hear it again, coming from a place of being curious, not taking it personal, not not counterattacking, not being blaming or critical or or contemptuous. That's going to make it easier for our partner to hear. What we have to say. They'll take into consideration will be safer. They'll feel more safe around us. And it doesn't mean that we that we have to accommodate or give up who we are or what we want to say. We're just saying it in a way that makes it easier for them to hear it.

 

Alisa [00:12:35] I love that. I really love that. So let me ask you this. Let's say the shoes on the other foot and you're the one that's on the receiving end of that. Yes. You have a friend or a coworker or someone else that is that really blunt, you know, take me or leave me. That's just the way I am kind of person. And you're on the receiving end. Yeah. How how do we can how do we engage in that conversation without becoming defensive ourselves? Yeah. How do what do we how do we respond in a way that we're not trying to, you know, we just become defensive. We start justifying ourselves. We try, you know, start explaining in a way, or maybe we even withdraw. We stonewall, right? We build a wall of stones that we want to run and hide behind where we just emotionally disengage by saying, okay, whatever you feel that way, great. Okay, whatever. I'm just out of here. Yeah, you're right, I It's all my fault. Yeah. I'm a horrible person. You're right. Okay, so those. Those are two of the horsemen. Four horsemen of the apocalypse, right. That Gottman talks about that is so detrimental to a relationship. So what? What is the counter to becoming defensive when you're on the receiving end?

 

Willa [00:13:53] Yes. So when you're on a receiving end of a comment like that is so easy. Our natural inclination is we do one of two things. We either turn it up where we come back, we counterattack, we we get defensive. We we say, Yeah, well, what about you? You know, we kind of go after them or we turn it down. We just shut down, we withdraw, we stonewall. We just we kind of just disappear. And neither one of those things is very helpful. And so. What we want to do is I like to tell people all the time we want to be descriptive. You want to be descriptive. So if that were me, what I would say is I would say to my friend, you know, I do love you. You're my good friend. I care for you, and I want to know what you're thinking. And because I do care for you, I want you to know that when you say this to me in this way, it makes it really hard for me to hear you. I want to take in what you have to say, but I'm really struggling to do that. And so it would really help me if you could say it a little bit different is, okay, can I, you know, cause I'm the therapist. I'd hate for my friend, but when you're a therapist, you're going to say that. But but a nice template is to say, instead of just blurting it out, this is how it is. You say when this happens and you describe the situation, then you say, I feel. I feel put down. I feel misunderstood. I feel unimportant. It'd be helpful if so, to my friend. You know, when you say things in that way, I feel put on the spot. I can tell I'm getting a bit defensive. I can tell it is kind of hurtful and I'm stuck because I want to hear you and I'm having a really hard time. So if you could say that and a bit more of a descriptive way that you would let me know you care for me too. And this is that these are the things that you're seeing and how it is for you that's going to make it easier for me to be able to hear you and take it in and make and really work towards, you know, coming to an accommodation to each other.

 

Alisa [00:15:42] That's really good. Really, really good. Okay. Okay. That's number two. Okay. Do you have number three? What's your.

 

Willa [00:15:50] So I think a third one is a lack of willingness to be transparent and vulnerable because we're afraid. Yeah. Yeah. Boy, I got a whole page of notes on that.

 

Alisa [00:16:02] I bet you do. Bring it.

 

Willa [00:16:04] Let's hear. My gosh. There's so much that happens when we do that. And I think you. If we're honest, you know, we are going to be a bit put on the spot. We can be afraid and it is risky to be vulnerable and is risky to be transparent. And so what we do, our natural inclination, it's not that it's wrong is that it's our natural inclination and it's usually not very helpful, but we will cover that up. And so we won't we won't really let somebody else see that shoot us their true selves because it's too risky. I could get hurt. I don't want to get hurt. And so or. Or is too risky. I could get hurt. Or maybe if I actually share what's happening for me, you know, I'm worried that I'm not enough. I'm worried that I'm. I'm failing in some way. And if I bring it up, gosh, I'm saying that's true. And that that's hard for me to do. Or if I do that, you know, I could give you some some power over me. So I don't want to be vulnerable with you because, again, it all comes back to you could hurt. And so we tend to do one of three things. I think we respond with anger. Anger can be the all purpose emotion, you know, when we're fearful, which is, I think what happens, we don't be transparent or vulnerable because we're afraid. So if we're fearful, we get angry or if we're sad, we can get angry or frustrated, we get angry or hurt. It comes out as anger. Anger is the more socially acceptable emotion. And so we get angry and it does protect us for sure, but it also keeps people at arm's length. And so we're safe and we're protected. But we can be very lonely.

 

Alisa [00:17:44] We lose that intimacy.

 

Willa [00:17:46] Yeah. There's no room for intimacy.

 

Alisa [00:17:48] You know, it's interesting. I would say probably out of all of my list, this is probably one I struggle with the most. And I think when Chris and I first got married, it's one that I really I really struggled with. And in I'll tell you, like in my own thought processes, whenever we had a conflict about something or if he hurt my feelings about something and there was I needed to tell him, I was afraid to. I didn't know how. And the thought in my mind, first of all, which I probably should impact this a little bit. But the first thought in my mind was I don't want to make him feel bad. I want him to change his behavior, but I don't want to hurt his feelings and make him feel bad. And so I wouldn't tell him. I wouldn't tell him verbally. Right. I words I won't say I wouldn't tell him, but I could, you know, passive aggressiveness was like my go to. So he would get home, something would hurt my feelings. And so I'd be in the kitchen and I would just, you know, shut the door, shut the door a little bit harder, you know, put the plate down on the on the table a little bit, you know, harder and just be, you know, a little bit shorter. Shut the door a little bit harder because I'm letting you know I'm not happy without using my words because I was scared, too.

 

Willa [00:19:11] How did that work for you?

 

Alisa [00:19:13] Well, it did let him know I wasn't happy, but he was in the dark. I mean, and bless his heart. To his credit, God bless him. He would he would pursue me. And we were married enough months under our belt that he worked really hard to to create a safe space for me to be able to share what was really on my heart. Yeah. And I think I grew up in a home, especially with a dad that was very defensive and would turn it anything. If you had a valid complaint about it, he would always turn it in a way that it was really my fault or somebody else's fault. He never took responsibility for it.

 

Willa [00:19:56] So it wasn't safe?

 

Alisa [00:19:57] It was not safe. I learned. No, It's like if I want to let you know you hurt my feelings or I'm not happy. Well, I have to be very creative. Yes. And so So he was very patient. And at first we've told the story in this podcast before, but there was a time that that he had hurt my feelings about something I'd done, the whole passive aggressive thing all night long. And we when it was time to go to bed, we got to bed. And he's like, This is something wrong? I'm like, No, I'm fine. And he's like, You are not fine. I can tell something's wrong. And he's like, No, really, it's okay. And he's like, Lisa, something is wrong. Please just tell me. I can't fix it if you don't tell me. And Willa, it literally took two hours. Wow. We laid there, and he gave me time and space. He, you know, held me in his arms, and I just cried because I so bad wanted to tell him when you come in and. And you don't, you know, you give me a hug and kiss and you say hi, but you've been gone all day. And then you go in the bedroom and shut the door. It makes me feel like maybe you don't like me. Maybe you don't really want to be married to me. Maybe you think you made a mistake.

 

Willa [00:21:11] Wow, that's huge.

 

Alisa [00:21:12] My dad's huge. But I didn't really know how to articulate it at that level. I just knew that it hurt my feelings. And so once I was finally able to get it out after about two hours, you know, he was so great. He owned it. And he said, you know what? I you, I know what you're talking about. I do go back in the bedroom at the end of the day when I get home. And you're right, I can see why you would feel that way, why you would interpret that message that way. Yeah. Yeah. And when he validated my perspective, even though he might not agree with it, well, he did agree with it because that's not what he was communicating from his perspective. Correct. But that's what I was hearing and receiving.

 

Willa [00:21:55] Taking it personally.

 

Alisa [00:21:56] Exactly. Exactly. And I hope when he validated that for me, though, it was like, thank you, thank you. You understand me? And I can be safe. I can tell you hard things and you don't throw it back in my face or turn it back on me. And so it took it took a long time. I would even say a couple of years to get to a point to where I could share with him fairly quickly when something was bothering me. And even now, it is not my natural go to write it. My natural instinct is to run and hide and act like everything's okay. Yep. Yeah. But he's really helped me to grow. And he even modeled that for me, which was very helpful because I just didn't see that growing up.

 

Willa [00:22:42] Right. And I want to just highlight, too, that you were not doing that because you didn't want to hurt him. And yet that's exactly what was happening by not telling him.

 

Alisa [00:22:51] Yes. Yeah, you're right.

 

Willa [00:22:53] Costing him. It was hurting him in direct, indirect way.

 

Alisa [00:22:57] That's yeah, that's really interesting. And it turns out the whole reason he was going in and closed the doors. He's an introvert. Yeah. He's with people all day long, and by the time he gets home, he's just emotionally, mentally exhausted. And he just needed 15, 20 minutes to kind of remount reload. And then he was ready to engage with me.

 

Willa [00:23:17] And to put it plug in for being disruptive. If he could have described that to you.

 

Alisa [00:23:21] Yeah.

 

Willa [00:23:22] And you would have understood.

 

Alisa [00:23:23] And so at the end of that, to our conversation, he did. And now then that was eye opening is like, you mean it's not me, it's it's you. You're just exhausted. You're tired. You need that time. Yeah, totally. So from then on, because we got down to that level, then what I started doing, knowing that he needed that time, I would have things ready for him when he came home. So he would walk in the door. I would have the. That's when we still use newspapers, right? So I would have the newspaper on the bed. I would have his Diet Coke. I would have his pistachio nuts because he loves pistachios and I would have them sitting there on the bed. And so when he came home, I was working part time at that time. So I was home way more than he was. But he would come home. I would give him a hug, give him a kiss. I'm. So glad you're home. Now you go back in the bedroom and you just relax.

 

Willa [00:24:17] Relax?

 

Alisa [00:24:18] Yeah. And he so appreciated that I gave him that permission.

 

Willa [00:24:22] Right.

 

Alisa [00:24:22] To do that and not beat him up over it. And then I knew at the end of that 15 minutes he was going to come out and and be able to engage with me, which I desperately needed as the extrovert home all day, all by myself.

 

Willa [00:24:37] Yeah. And that just shows how that that very same event, you turned it around to be something that could be drawing you together rather than pushing you apart now because you were describing it, Right?

 

Alisa [00:24:48] I love that. Okay.

 

Willa [00:24:49] As far as being friends. But the other thing is we can use anger or we can shut down and withdraw and then we pull away. And so we're quiet. We don't put ourselves out there. And then the person can't really know us because we don't become available to them or we become a chameleon. So it's whatever you do, you want to go see this movie? Yeah, that sounds great. You mean go eat this food? Yeah, that sounds wonderful. But we sell ourselves out because we're too afraid to be vulnerable and say what we really think. And so we lose ourselves. We lose part of ourselves. And. And it's not the other person's fault is because we're not bringing yourself to the table. So this it kind of comes back to, again, this self self-protective behavior. I'm doing this to protect myself. But what we need to remember is self protective behavior always has a cost and is never, rarely, rarely is it helpful. It's understandable at the front end because sometimes that's all we know. Like for you, that's all you knew growing up. That's what was model to you. You didn't have another option. Right. So it it did its purpose, but then you kind of outgrew it and you needed to know a different way to respond. And I want to give another example from a training tape of a woman who was very afraid of being transparent. She said this is this is true. When she was in grade school, her parents were out running errands. One day she had a sitter and they they didn't come home in time for dinner. And I head back up just a second. She and her husband came in to therapy because she would go ballistic when he didn't come home in time for dinner. She it was just she was beyond herself. And she was very the anger piece was for her coming out. She was strong. It was so much of a problem that they had to come in. And so they were talking with a therapist and she describing her family background and how her parents did not come home in time for dinner. And what happened was that they had been killed in a car accident. So she has all of this negative trauma associated with not being home in time for dinner. But she didn't ever tell them this.

 

Alisa [00:26:48] Was she aware that that's where it was coming from?

 

Willa [00:26:50] Well, so so so she's a she's a child. She's in grade school and this happened. So she goes to live with her aunt, which actually turned out to be a great situation for her. The aunt was kind and loving, took excellent care of her. She was great feeling secure, safe. And when she was in high school, her aunt did not come home in time for dinner and her aunt was killed in a car accident. So she has all of this negative fear wrapped around not coming at home in time for dinner. But she didn't she wasn't vulnerable. She didn't share it with her husband. He didn't know the extent of this. And so she she could be transparent because she felt that it was silly. Right. I shouldn't be feeling this way. But she was. And so when she was able to walk into that and be vulnerable and share that with her husband, he immediately softened. He was tender, he was kind, he was compassionate, and they were able to work it out. So, again, it goes back to our self self-protective behavior. It keeps us safe, but it causes a host of other problems. Yeah. And so when we can take the risk, there is a risk of being vulnerable because, yeah, we can get hurt, but there's a risk if we don't do it.

 

Alisa [00:27:57] That's right. And and I love that example that you just gave because the husband's response of of being much more tender with her, much more conscientious about time he was able to really enter that space with her compassionate, loving, compassionate, merciful. And isn't that exactly the way God is with us? Yes. And when when marriage, especially when marriage is is is an image of God's relationship with Christ in the church. The church is his bride, right? He's compassionate. He's understanding. He goes into those wounded places and ministers healing and hope and wholeness. Yes. And then that's how he uses that uses us with each other, whether it's a married couple, whether it's friends, whether it's a parent with a child, when we're when we're vulnerable, where we're willing to say what's really going on, it allows the other person the opportunity to to be the hands and feet of Jesus to you. Yeah. To minister his. Grace, his love, his comfort, his security, his understanding. I love that. And when we're not willing to be vulnerable, we really robbed the other person of the opportunity to minister to us and to bring help and healing to our soul the way God intended our relationships to do that well.

 

Willa [00:29:37] And we also rob ourselves because when we keep it quiet and under wraps, I mean, we're carrying all of this stuff and we feel burdened down. And when we are able to be open and vulnerable and share and transparent, it's very freeing. It's very freeing. And it's like, it's okay, it's okay. And sometimes a person might not respond, respond well. And I guess there's a risk in that. Sure. But there's a bigger risk if you don't do it of really selling yourself out, feeling lonely, misunderstood, ignored, not seen. All those things can come into play and those are very costly.

 

Alisa [00:30:08] So it's interesting. This one really kind of juxtaposes with the one that we had before. You want to be vulnerable, you want to be transparent, but you want to communicate it in a way softly that the other person can receive it.

 

Willa [00:30:24] Yes. Yeah. You want to see this is when it's okay to be all about you. I mean.

 

Alisa [00:30:29] It's not you, it's me.

 

Willa [00:30:30] You want to be descriptive. This is what's happening for me. I'm getting stuck. I'm. I'm. I'm struggling. I want to share this with you, but I'm afraid I don't want to hurt your feelings, you know? Are I are. I'm really struggling with this. I don't feel like I should bring it up, but I know that it's hurting me. It's hurting you. And so bear with me and are our partners be much more kind and thoughtful and patient with me when we're descriptive in that way?

 

Alisa [00:30:51] I love that. Awesome. Okay. Okay, everybody move on. Anything else you wanted to add to that?

 

Willa [00:30:57] I think that's good.

 

Alisa [00:30:59] Okay, so our number four, this is number four in my list of top relationship killers. And it's the failure to take your partner's side in an external argument or conflict. So let's see. Let's say that Chris had something happen at work and somebody picked him off. Somebody did something they weren't supposed to do. And it and it really upset him. Maybe it reflected poorly on him or something. And he comes home and he's telling me all about it.

 

Willa [00:31:30] Yeah.

 

Alisa [00:31:31] And a relationship killer would be if I respond either neutrally or if I actually take the other person's side. So if I were to say, you know, it's not that bad, I don't know why you're getting so upset about it. It's really it's really not that bad. Can't you just ignore him and move on that's being almost neutral? Or if I were to say, you know what? You had it coming. It's your fault. Well, no wonder he responded that way, because if you would have done this, then he wouldn't have done that. So I can see why he did that. And you know what? Maybe that's true. Maybe that's true. But now is not the time. Not to say that because neutrality is not neutral. If you do that where you come against your partner, then what they are going to feel as a response of you taking the other person's side will be betrayal and invalidation.

 

Willa [00:32:26] Yeah, you're invalidating them.

 

Alisa [00:32:28] My gosh. Yeah. You don't have a right to feel the way you feel because it's your own fault. My goodness. This is such a big one. Because I see this a lot with couples. Whenever we say if we're at a conference and we're doing some counseling with them and they bring an issue, so many times I see it where one of the partners doesn't have the other one's back in a in an external conflict. Maybe it's with a mother. You wouldn't believe what my mom did. You know this? Well, lease. If you would have just done that, then she wouldn't have done now. Well, I can see why your mom would be mad about that as opposed to saying. And I love it because Chris is really good about this. He will just get right behind me and he's like, Yeah, that was wrong that your mom said that. Okay, my mom really hasn't done anything, that I'm just using this as an example. But he will be right. My corner. He is like, you know, if he was a girl, it would be the version of Here, hold my whoops, I am going in. I am taking them out because they were bad. They were wrong. They you and I've got to set this right. But if he weren't to do that, that would feel like such a betrayal to me. If he took the other person's side.

 

Willa [00:33:45] Very vulnerable. Yes. Or doesn't have your back. Yes. Understood.

 

Alisa [00:33:49] And when he does do that then what that communicates to me is, I can trust you. I can trust that you've got my back. You're on my side. You are team A Lisa and I am Team Chris. And it really fosters that sense of of oneness for us. It is us against the world and everybody else can be wrong. But we have. You know, we are here and we've got each other's back. Yeah. Or even as a parent. You know, maybe our kid gets in trouble at school. Imagine that your kid did something at school. They get in trouble, but they come home and tell you about it, and they're like, But, mom, there's a reason I did that. You know, there's a reason I threw the pencil out at Johnny. Darren, you know, during class today, it's because he was really mean to me. And he said something snotty. So I got mad and I threw the pencil. Yeah. Well, what would be not taking their side would be. You can't do that. You can't. We don't ever hit in our family. Hitting is not okay. Violence isn't the answer. Well no wonder you got in trouble as opposed to. Wow, I can really understand why that made you mad. Yeah. That probably felt like, really unfair that he was doing something wrong. And you're the one that got in trouble. Yeah. Did that seem unfair to you? Did that feel kind of unfair? Yes. And did it hurt your feelings that you were left out at recess because him and all his friends ran off and played and you didn't You weren't included. I bet that made you feel a little left out, didn't it? And so you empathize. You take that moment to empathize. You take that moment to put yourself in their shoes, see it from their perspective, feel it from their perspective. How did they feel?

 

Willa [00:35:34] It is so important to identify, to focus on identifying what they're feeling in the moment with children.

 

Alisa [00:35:40] Maybe they can't. Maybe they don't have the ability to identify that emotion and articulate it. So it's really important for us as parents to help them with it. Yeah. And I can remember Caroline when she was she's our youngest and she was probably in kindergarten. And that same scenario about about somebody, her friends not playing with her. And she was really sad. And when she got in the car after school and she's like, you know, five, six years old and she was like, mommy, you know, so-and-so wasn't very nice to me. They didn't play with me today. And I said, Wow, that sounds like that made you feel really sad. Were you sad when that happened? And she said yes. So did that make you feel left out? Like they didn't want to be your friend or like. Yeah, that's it. Caroline, I'm so sorry. You know what? I think that would have hurt my feelings, too. Good empathy. And so you empathize. You validate. This is such a big one for me.

 

Willa [00:36:38] Yeah, it's so true.

 

Alisa [00:36:39] Anything you want to add to that?

 

Willa [00:36:41] Yeah. You know, it's interesting because the Gammons talk about that if your partner comes home, your spouse comes home. And and if you do take if you do if you are neutral or you take the person's side, they call it siding with the enemy. And I would say recommend, you know, even if you could see some valid points, you know the person. That is not the time.

 

Alisa [00:37:03] Timing is everything.

 

Willa [00:37:04] So you want to back them up, You want to empathize. You went to validate everything and then later on, because then they're going to be sued. They'll be they'll feel understood. And then later on, maybe the next day, you know, if you want to bring it back up carefully, they're going to have more ability to hear you. But in that moment, it's not it's not going to work. They're going to feel worse. And so you do validate, empathize with them and support them.

 

Alisa [00:37:29] Good. Good, good. Okay, let's move on. Okay. Number four. What are we up to? Number five. Number five. All right. What is it? What do you have?

 

Willa [00:37:39] I have the inability to say that I was wrong.

 

Alisa [00:37:43] That's a big.

 

Willa [00:37:44] Deal to say. I'm sorry. I was wrong. And I think it does it ties into, again, that lack of transparency and vulnerability, not wanting to be vulnerable and ties into our self-protective behavior. And I think really what happens when we can't say I'm sorry is because we're insecure. We're not secure enough to say we're not secure enough to recognize that, hey, I can do something wrong. And that doesn't mean I can fail, but that does not mean I'm a failure. So I can make a mistake, and I can admit it. I can admit it to myself and to my partner. And that's the way we can move forward. And we can grow. But to not be able to acknowledge it, sometimes we don't want to acknowledge it because we're afraid. If I acknowledge it, then that's going to confirm that it's true about me. I don't want to confirm if I have a fear of being, I don't know, inconsiderate. And then my somebody tells me that and I did something that was inconsiderate. I can't apologize because if I apologize, then, boy, that fear is going to be. That means it's true. And sometimes we don't want to apologize because we're afraid if I apologize, I'm going to give the person power over me. I'm going to lose face. I can lose respect. And I seem like I'm weak. So I got to be strong. And I can't let anybody, you know, kick anybody, take anything over on me.

 

Alisa [00:39:00] Do you ever see in in your practice, your private practice, do you ever see a gender difference in this between men and women?

 

Willa [00:39:10] Kind of. I hate to say it so formally, though. I think there's a tendency, I think, for women to be able to say they're sorry a little bit more easily than for men.

 

Alisa [00:39:20] So, you know, it's interesting because we we were speaking at a conference for Family Life, which speak at the weekend to remember marriage conferences. I highly recommend them. They are so much fun. Really solid getaway weekends, if you're looking for one, in fact, will be speaking at one in just a couple of weeks. But there was there was a woman that came up. I'll never forget this because I was really shocked. You wouldn't think anything would shock me after doing this for 30 something years. But I was really surprised. But she came up after the session on conflict in managing conflict, and she said, What do I do? I've been married 24 years and my husband has never once apologized. Who who never once apologized. And and I said, why do you think he hasn't? And she said, because he truly never thinks he's wrong.

 

Willa [00:40:19] Wow.

 

Alisa [00:40:20] I thought that is going to be a long 24 years for that woman. Long 24 years.

 

Willa [00:40:28] See, and I would. I could be wrong. My my suspicion is that he is afraid. He is wrong. So he can't go there. Because if he goes there, then that's going to confirm it.

 

Alisa [00:40:38] And think of the pressure that puts on her.

 

Willa [00:40:40] Yeah.

 

Alisa [00:40:40] And their relationship to never have someone own their part of it.

 

Willa [00:40:46] Yeah.

 

Alisa [00:40:46] I puts on that gesture. So that has to be so damaging to that relationship and to that person. It's almost like you can't. What kind of trust is there if the other person can never admit, even if they may, they truly don't think they're wrong? You can at least say maybe I'm wrong. Maybe. Maybe I see this in a different way, but this is the way I see it. Maybe I'm wrong, but, you know. But I decided I think this is what's going on here. But even just putting that maybe in there can allow for some wiggle room in the relationship. I just think that's a huge relationship killer.

 

Willa [00:41:32] Amazingly so. You know, I think about when you apologize, it's counterintuitive. But when you do apologize, you actually gain respect. I think you gain credibility. You're you are being responsible. You're taking ownership of something that you've done and that you can admit that and that it's okay and doesn't it doesn't, you know, ruin you. It doesn't mean that you're a terrible person. You can do something wrong and not be a terrible person.

 

Alisa [00:41:58] Exactly. And exactly the opposite. When you fail to take responsibility, you lose respect in the other person's.

 

Willa [00:42:06] Eyes and credibility.

 

Alisa [00:42:08] And I think going back to that whole the way that I grew up and, you know, my dad being so defensive, he never, ever, ever came and said, Louis, I'm sorry that I was short with you. I'm sorry I lost my temper. I'm sorry I yelled at you. I'm sorry I embarrassed you in front of your friends when I got on to you and friend. Never, never, never, never, never. You know? And so it really does is so hurtful to the other person, to the person that's on the receiving end of that lack of responsibility. But that would I think that would have done so much in my eyes as a as a, let's say, a teen, a college age student, early 20s. For my dad to have been able to say, wow, I was really wrong and I'm sorry I did that. And as a parent, to be able to do that with a child is so important. What does that do for a parent child relationship?

 

Willa [00:43:04] It strengthens it. You could still be the parent and say you're sorry, you know? And in fact, I think that kids feel better. They feel more understood. They feel like they can approach you. They feel like you're honest, you're authentic, you're real. And it makes it easier for them to come to you. Yeah. I think when we don't apologize, it costs us a whole lot to. It hurts the other person. Yes, but it also hurts us. And we try. You know that for that man who hasn't apologized in 24 years. Wow, what a facade. He's having a.

 

Alisa [00:43:32] Prop. Yeah. That's a lot of mental, emotional work.

 

Willa [00:43:36] Absolutely. And so to be able to say I'm sorry, we really gained freedom, we become set free by being able to say to apologize, we had to prop up that facade anymore. We can be us and it's okay. It's freeing.

 

Alisa [00:43:48] Really, really good. Really good. Okay, We are that number six. Number six of our top relationship killers. And so this last one that we wanted to talk about that I brought was it kills your relationship when you assume the worst of someone.

 

Willa [00:44:07] Yeah.

 

Alisa [00:44:07] When you just automatically assume the worst and you go negative right away.

 

Willa [00:44:12] Yeah.

 

Alisa [00:44:13] Like if you walk in the house and the dishes are still in the sink and you've asked your family, you know, you've asked your husband, you've asked somebody to put those dishes away. Maybe it's your teenager. You've asked them when you get home, put those dishes away and you see that they're not done. And if you automatically go to you are so lazy, why didn't you do it? You're irresponsible. You're ignoring me because I've asked you to do that and you didn't do that. And you know what's wrong with you? Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to giving them the benefit of the doubt. Start with the benefit of the doubt. The dishes are in the sink. Well, now I know I'm not married to a jerk. He's actually a really great guy. And so I wonder if something happened to this reason. Or maybe that. Yeah, maybe there's a really good reason he wants me to come home instead of going to gymnastics and stay in there. He wants me to come right home instead of He's a jerk. He's trying to control me. He's trying to tell me what to do. You're not the boss of me. That's going. Negative in assuming the worse as opposed to maybe there's something a little deeper going on here for him. Maybe I should probe that a little bit and see where's that coming from?

 

Willa [00:45:28] I have a great example, but what when I first started working at Biola at the counseling center. There's the parking lots always full. And so we're allowed to park in the medical building next door. And they have two levels underground. And so one day I came home from work and my husband asked me, Well, where did you park? And I said, I had to park underground. And he said, You are not allowed to park down there ever again.

 

Alisa [00:45:54] And you said, I'm sorry. Excuse me.

 

Willa [00:45:59] I did not give the benefit of the doubt and I went straight to two. Negative. Like, who are you to control me? I'm an adult. I can figure this out for myself. I don't need somebody to tell me where I can and cannot park. And I mean, I just got in a big huff. And of course, we had a fight over that. And what happened was that there actually had been an armed robbery in that parking structure on a Tuesday afternoon at 2 p.m..

 

Alisa [00:46:22] My. And he saw.

 

Willa [00:46:23] It on the news. And so he was afraid. He was afraid for my safety. Yeah. And so that's why he came across so strongly. And I'm thinking what, you know, could have helped if you were a little more descriptive on the front end of that. I couldn't know what was happening there. But still, I. I responded with immediately going to something negative and something wrong and not giving him the benefit of the doubt. And once he explained it to me, I'm like you, you love me. You want to take care of me, You're trying to protect me. I understand that. I get that. So it would be much better even if he hadn't, you know, described that in the first place. Maybe he. He just went ahead and just gave me that ultimatum. If I could taken a step back and go like you're saying, okay, he's a good man. He's not a dictator. There's got to be some reason why. So I'm going be curious, not furious. I'm going to figure it out. What's going on for him that he would say that one to me would have made a huge difference. We got there eventually, but with a lot of bumps in the way.

 

Alisa [00:47:21] Yeah, I love that. So assume the best. Assume the best until, you know, different instead of going negative. Yeah. All right, well, we did it. We knocked out our top six relationship killers. Very good. Well, I thank you for being here today.

 

Willa [00:47:37] So much for having me. This is really.

 

Alisa [00:47:38] Fun. Yeah. We're going to have to do this again. We actually have We were planning this in the car when we were on a weekend away together. It's fun. Well, it's been one of my besties for, like, 20 plus years. Real blessed. So we have a lot of fun together, but we have a couple more that we're going to do. We might do these in a series, and so we'll have you back again. Well, that's great. You're willing to come and we'll knock out a couple of more of these, right? But hey, in the meantime, we are so glad that you joined us today on the Art of Relationships. It's brought to you by the Center for Marriage and Relationships at Biola University. So we'd love for you to check out our website at cmr.biola.edu. We have tons of free resource.

 

Willa [00:48:23] And great resources.

 

Alisa [00:48:24] my gosh. So, so good. So be sure if you like this podcast, will you please click those five stars and share it with a friend? Tell them, Hey, you need to listen to this podcast because Chris Elisa will, they are awesome. So please share that with your friends and we want to be sure and tell Tatum, our producer, our director, our marketing guru Tatum, you just got married. How do you say your last name? Moonves. Moonves, Tatum Moonves. We want to tell her thank. She did a great job today. You're going to hear more from Tatum. We'll probably have her on a couple of times because she's a newlywed. We want to hear how she and Noah are navigating these early years, but that would be another time. So thanks for joining us today on the Heart of Relationships. We'll see you next time.

 

Willa [00:49:15] Take care.

 

Mandy [00:49:18] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.