What I Wish I Knew Before Getting Engaged with Tatum Munivez

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In this episode, Chris Grace and guest co-host Tatum Munivez explore key questions to ask before getting engaged. They discuss essential relationship considerations, including compatibility, handling conflict, emotional safety, and recognizing red and green flags. Through personal insights and real-life examples, they provide practical wisdom to help you navigate the engagement decision with confidence.

Whether you're dating seriously or thinking about the next step, this episode offers valuable advice to build a strong foundation for marriage.

Resources Mentioned:

• 8 Questions to Ask Before Getting Engaged – A guide from the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships.
• Premarital Counseling – Learn how premarital counseling can strengthen your relationship.

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: youtube.com/@biola-cmr

Join the Conversation:

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace lead the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, combining biblical wisdom with relationship research to help individuals build healthy relationships. Learn more at cmr.biola.edu.

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Mandy [00:00:00] Welcome to the Art of relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

 

Chris [00:00:11] All right, so welcome to another Art of relationships podcast. I'm your host, Chris Grace, and we have a special in guest co-host today. Special extra special. It's Tatum you avez Tatum thanks for joining us.

 

Speaker 3 [00:00:24] Thanks for having.

 

Chris [00:00:25] Me. Yeah. So our regular co-hosts, especially Elisa, my wife is out sick. She's been sick for like 2 to 3 weeks with this cough. And and so she was afraid she's going to cough a lot. The other podcast host that we used many years ago, Timo Hoff, he just never met standards. We had these standards. And it's like, Tim, every podcast you have low marks. So we finally got rid of him. But he also signed up everyone's RA. Tatum however, works here in our in our marketing department basically. And what do we call you, Director of Marketing or communicate.

 

Tatum [00:01:00] I am the marketing and communications manager.

 

Chris [00:01:03] Manager. Marketing communications. So everybody, welcome to the podcast. Tatum universe who Tatum on this podcast is. First of all it goes all over. We love it. We we love the fact that you are helping us market this in a lot of different places. And how fun is that been to work on a podcast like this on the other side? Been good fun. I mean.

 

Tatum [00:01:28] Yeah.

 

Chris [00:01:28] I kind of came up with a lot of the studio design.

 

Tatum [00:01:31] Yes. Cool. For those of you not watching on YouTube, which you should, we created a whole podcast studio, which if you watch the video, you can see it. It's been so fun working behind the scenes on a podcast. You would never guess how much work goes into editing one of these episodes, but a lot of work. Yeah, no, it's an absolute blast. It's something so valuable. Come together.

 

Chris [00:01:55] Yeah. And the reason you're here in front today of the cameras. And here is because you're in a place in your life and in your new marriage that is, I think, perfect to answer some questions that we get all the time people write in, we hear from students, and that is, what do I do or what what should I be looking for before I get engaged? And kind of like pre engagement counseling because we're dating. Seriously. But I just don't know if he's right or she's right. And Tatum you or I have been married now to Noah I know for about five months.

 

Tatum [00:02:37] Yeah five months, five months.

 

Chris [00:02:39] And so we just thought we put our heads together. We went, yeah. Elisa, let's bring in Tatum and ask some of these questions. So, Tatum, thanks for being here.

 

Tatum [00:02:47] Yeah.

 

Chris [00:02:48] You graduated from Biola I did. You met your future husband I can't remember here our camp.

 

Tatum [00:02:56] I met him at Makara.

 

Chris [00:02:58] Oh, at mock Rock.

 

Tatum [00:02:59] If you can believe that, that's gone.

 

Chris [00:03:01] So, hey, go to YouTube, check out mock Rock, just type in by. Oh my God, it's amazing. What was it? The mock rock that you and I were together before.

 

Tatum [00:03:11] So it was the year before that. So we were on separate teams and I bumped into him while carrying a prop. And that is how.

 

Chris [00:03:17] And that's how you met?

 

Tatum [00:03:18] Yeah. And we were on opposing teams. We both lost that year. But then we joined forces together on Man of Honor, and Chris was on our team that next year and we won. We won. So we won a couple.

 

Chris [00:03:33] Yeah. Yeah. No. And you or carried us. It was something to do. Actually it was the Joker that carried it.

 

Tatum [00:03:39] Oh would you agree? Yeah. Shout out Cameron.

 

Chris [00:03:41] Shout out to the Cameron. And one of the things that you and no did was you guys intentionally, you know, I think you did your relationship. Well there were things that you guys incorporated into your relationship. And I think a lot of listeners out there would benefit from. So let's take them. What I'd like to do is just ask you a couple questions. And let's start with this. You're now dating? No, it's getting more serious. You are about to get engaged. And there were questions that were going through your mind as well as. No, it was about fit. About what kind of personalities, you know, quirks that we have that we should share. How do we react to stress? What was one of the things that you were most encouraged by when you were dating? That you answered yes to the question like, is he? What were the big yeses? Let's start with the obvious he loved Jesus. That's a big yes, right? So he loved Jesus. You wanted to. You guys wanted to date even more because of that. But there must have been other qualities. What were some things that were big yeses for you when you were dating Noah? Like? Oh, he's just a man of integrity. Are you? I love his humor.

 

Tatum [00:05:02] What were they? Yeah. So my three biggest things I would say is one. Jesus. It's not just that they love Jesus, but they make me look more like Jesus. And so he encouraged me to be more like him. And it wasn't just a show, it was okay. He he is challenging me in these things and in a graceful way, and helping me to look more like our father. So that was the biggest thing that I've always had on my future husband.

 

Chris [00:05:32] Yeah.

 

Tatum [00:05:32] Make me more like Jesus. Yeah. Two. A big, big one for me was honesty. And within the first few weeks of dating, I. He was really vulnerable and shared some really hard things from his life with me that I was like, oh, okay, we're doing this. We're, we're going into this and you're really honest. And so that was like a huge thing because a lot of our generation isn't honest.

 

Chris [00:05:58] Yeah. So what's the difference between being too honest and too vulnerable and having the right boundary? Because one issue that I think couples are going to have to deal with this. Do they cross too many boundaries? And here's what I, what I'm getting at somebody that's too honest and too vulnerable too early. It can kind of be manipulative a little bit like as it can go, I like this. I want that in the person. So you have to be careful. So he he he did it. Well, why did he do it.

 

Tatum [00:06:29] Well I think that I mean, it was a slow roll. Emotional intimacy is is a huge topic that I do feel like students maybe jump into really fast because they're really eager to like, let's get deep really fast, which going deep is a great thing. But you do also have to. I know this is cliche, but like protect your heart because you don't know if they're going to be around for the long haul. Right. And so going into it really silly. Well, what I did and what he did is okay, I'm going to give this person a snippet of a peek into my life to see how they respond to it. And if they can steward that piece, well, then let's continue.

 

Chris [00:07:10] Oh that's good, that's good. So eventually I want to mention that here at the center, we created something. You had a huge part in this about eight questions to ask before you get engaged. One of those is about boundaries. And one of those is do they cross them a lot? Are they honest? Can you trust them? Do they guard well? In fact, here's here's a great question that we ask. And it goes like this. Is the person safe right, for me to share things? Do I feel safe? But this also may be are they setting up good boundaries? Does this person protect my heart, respect my boundaries, and make me feel secure? What role does safety and security play in in the decision that someone's about to make, if they're wanting to take that next step? It's a great question, right? Because if you give them a snippet now, Noah did it well, he apparently responded in kind. Liked you. You guys shared that. But he probably also was safe with that. That is, you didn't find out two weeks later that he shared this with his buddies and with his mom because of something that you are vulnerable, right? Right. That would be a red flag, wouldn't it?

 

Tatum [00:08:26] Yeah. So when you're vulnerable with someone, you expect them to take that and hold it safely. He always used to say to me, I promise to hold your heart in a lock it like it is safe, but it's like I'm not going to expose it or hurt it. What you give to me, I will hold and protect that. Yeah.

 

Chris [00:08:45] So when my wife and I first started dating, one of the things that we did was we We shared a lot like you guys did, but a lot of ours was actually letter writing, which was really cool, really. And in that I just remember thinking, wow, you can be kind of vulnerable because it also allows you to edit things, you know what I mean? Like, oh, I want to say this, but maybe I'll write it this way. Now let me think through it. But I think that safety and security is something you develop, right. And a red flag is if they don't handle that well, or if they go too deep, too fast or they, they, they take your vulnerability and kind of maybe don't hold it in a lock it it's probably not that could be a negative on you think about then somebody who is dating somebody and they're not sure about that. They're like, I don't I don't know if I can trust them. I don't know if they're honest, I don't I think they're giving me all the details, but they feels like they're maybe hiding a little bit. Is that is that an issue that you should be concerned about before you get engaged, that maybe you're not getting their full heart? Maybe they're struggling with something and I don't I kind of know they are. They shared a snippet.

 

Tatum [00:10:01] Yeah, but.

 

Chris [00:10:02] I don't know the depth.

 

Tatum [00:10:03] What do you think? Well, I think if you are at the part where you're almost getting engaged, you should expect full transparency and full honesty. And in dating, the little things may seem like little things, but when you're married, they're going to turn it to a big thing. So if they're hiding like the I don't know, I went out late with my buddy is and they're not telling you when they got back, it might seem like, okay, that's a fine little thing, but in marriage that could turn into something really nasty. So just like really expecting a full truth. And you, if you have like a feeling of discomfort, discomfort that might be from the Lord just to kind of probe a little further into that issue.

 

Chris [00:10:45] Yeah. That's good. There are so some of these issues then might be couples specific, but if there's been a past of like, there's a little bit of fibbing about how late they were out or where they went or who they were with, or if there was maybe alcohol involved, or if they were, you know, doing something that wasn't good or kind, or they were with a bunch of other people and, you know, they there's a lot of things pornography. How much do you reveal and are they trustworthy? Kind of depends upon the issues that you face beforehand.

 

Tatum [00:11:22] Right.

 

Chris [00:11:23] Okay. So great question. Let's try another one. That's very important. So in this list that you helped create, you know there's these questions that we should consider before getting engaged. Let's try those. Have you seen Noah in stress and disappointment in conflict. Yes. And is that important for someone's about to get engaged? And why do you think that's important? To see that side of them?

 

Tatum [00:11:50] Yeah. Personally, for me, before I started dating Noah, I knew whoever I marry, I want to see them in every season. Yeah. And that is seasons in the year. But usually within that year or more you see them in all types of.

 

Chris [00:12:05] Well that's great. By the way the seasons analogy is perfect, right? You the the beginning is let's think about the beginning of the year like a spring. Right? Yeah. Spring is like oh, it's all fun. There's, you know, flowers blooming. This is all butterflies. Summer is cool. It's relaxing. It's fun. You get to go to the beach in that relationship. And then the fall comes and you start to go, you know, there's a little bit of breeze coming in, I'm not sure. And then you need to see them also in the winter when things and this is maybe a winter question.

 

Tatum [00:12:32] Right.

 

Chris [00:12:33] What was it. What are they like in this. Because it it's going to be a pattern most likely for them when you get married.

 

Tatum [00:12:41] I think that it's really important to see them, especially in stress and frustration. Like, does that frustration turn into really negative anger, or does it turn into negative coping things and just really seeing what they pursue? What is their response, their automatic response, and how they choose to take that really intense emotion?

 

Chris [00:13:05] Okay. So for me, one of the things I learned in dating that was something to pay attention to my wife during stress and discipline that she she's rarely gets overly stressed. We're both pretty kind of easygoing, but she retreats. Lisa, if she was sitting here, would say, yep. My tendency is when thing when I'm disappointed or we have a little conflict or I get stressed, it's like, I don't know if I want to deal with this. And it comes from things that she knew about. Well, one of the questions that we had to kind of deal with is I'm the opposite. I'm like, I want to pursue and talk about. So. But if there's a little stress between us or conflict, I'm like, listen, man, we got to talk this out. I think that difference was it's great, by the way. It's you don't have to be the same in the way you do this. But seeing when disappointment came in was important because it could set up this pattern. Right. That you guys realized. So let me ask you this. When you're stressed or disappointed, what's your kind of go to? Do you do you know or do you get that stress relief?

 

Tatum [00:14:20] Yeah. When I get really stressed, I pour myself deeper into work and retreat from people. Oh, yes. You can just double down. I double down on all the things and NOAA retreats and takes a step back also from all the stuff. So when we both retreat. A resolution doesn't come right away. You know, no one's pushing that. And so we've had to recognize that that's how we our automatic responses. And we know that's not always the healthiest thing. So we have to make very intentional efforts to notice when that's coming on and, and really try to fight it.

 

Chris [00:15:00] Right. And for our listeners, by the way, there's no way that date we are going to call you on marriage expert.

 

Tatum [00:15:07] Oh no.

 

Chris [00:15:08] But it because that's why, you know, being five month I'm we've been married 95 years and we're still we call ourselves marriage experience not marriage experts.

 

Tatum [00:15:19] I am neither we're.

 

Chris [00:15:20] Getting close to. But the point isn't that you have to become an expert at this. You just have to see patterns or tendencies or know what? Know that you're going to double down when you're stressed. You're going to just dive into work and you're going to step away. That right there, just identifying that is is really important, especially early on and seeing your pattern.

 

Tatum [00:15:42] Or not only sensing the patterns, but really trying to identify why do I do that? And for me, when I once I recognize why I do that, it unlocks a lot of things from childhood and for both of us. And just like really working through the why behind that.

 

Chris [00:15:58] Yeah. No, you're exactly right. And you learn those whys over time. And sometimes they come in and I just remember, you know, Elisa crying one night and I'm told this story before, but it's like it took two hours. Tatum for me to finally is we've been married about five months and it's you know, it's this hot, you know, July night or just lying there and she I could tell with little tears, you know. Good. Okay, Lisa, you got to tell me what's going on that I know you. I know you don't like conflict. I know you don't like to deal with this, but you gotta tell me I'm safe. It's okay. Two hours it took her. But, Tatum, the good news was, you know, I responded pretty well. I owned up to what she said. I think she talked about Chris. When you come home, sometimes I feel like I want to be with you and hang out, and you just want to go take the first half hour and be alone. And sometimes it makes me feel like you think you made a mistake. And I'm like, oh, no, Lisa, I just need time to, you know, kind of just rest and hang out. And anyway, so because it was safe and we learned that. By the way, the next time, I always say it took her only like an hour and 53 minutes the next day and then in progress. And then it was like an hour 45 and then now we've been married so long, Tatum, that it takes her like one second. I walk in the door, she's like, bam!

 

Tatum [00:17:20] And Monroe.

 

Chris [00:17:21] I'm like, I miss the old days because it gives me more chance of like, I get a chance to think about and process. Now you hit me with it. You're too good at this is so really what it is, is you are learning at five months. But it's important to know that even before you get engaged, how do you deal with difficulties?

 

Tatum [00:17:40] Yeah, it's just really paying attention to patterns. I cannot stress that enough.

 

Chris [00:17:47] You can't stress it enough is why, though, knowing that pattern is because I'm guessing for you is it begins to show me, me and my heart and the condition of my soul. But the condition of our relationship sometimes, like, why do I always do this when I get stressed out? Those are so important to know ahead of time because it gives you insight into you, right? So I'm 39 says search me. Oh God know my heart, try me and know my anxious thoughts. Why am why am I doing this when I get anxious? So it's not just do they do it well or not well, but sometimes stress an opportunity to go, whoa, what's going on with me?

 

Tatum [00:18:27] Yeah. And dating engagement. Marriage takes two. Who can you control? You. You. It's overall.

 

Chris [00:18:34] You.

 

Tatum [00:18:34] I love recognizing your own pattern.

 

Chris [00:18:36] That's awesome I love that. So here's another question that is oftentimes we think needs to be asked. Am I at peace with the decision to move forward into engagement? Or are there red flags? Now let's say this red flags. There are certain things that should raise a red flag and that is green flags. They're funny. They have great sense of humor. I find them good looking. All of those things with. My name's.

 

Tatum [00:19:05] Chris.

 

Chris [00:19:07] There's only one that's right up. Red yellow green flags. Yellow flags would be like, okay, I knew I was going to want someone to be engaged to in the future that loved sports. She would be, you know, like, we could play sports, you know, football, basketball, baseball. We can go to events. She would love it. But she at least did it. Okay. Now the question is, how important was that for me? Is that a yellow flag? Well, it had to be a yellow flag, mostly because I had to think through. Oh, wait a minute, my expectations of marriage would be we'd be doing this or that a lot. It's just a yellow flag I needed to look at. But at the end of the day, yellow flags are there. Okay. Doesn't Superman know there's so many other important things that okay, a red flag however, is. So the question is, are you at peace with this decision about engagement or the red flags that you might be ignoring? I did want to ask this. I'm not going to ask this personal question of you, but I can tell when couples come to me, one red flag is they are ignoring how compatible they are because in their relationship, they've gotten too close, too early, emotionally and sometimes physically. And I believe that research and others have said the same, that someone who said that some couples that are too intimate physically and emotionally too early in their relationship will misidentify their differences and some red flags because they feel so closely attached. They are not a good judge. So what do you think about red flags and peace?

 

Tatum [00:20:54] And yeah. Well, feelings are really messy in dating, especially when you, like, just moved away from home. You're in a new place, new friends, new boyfriend, and the feelings are flying. But there is a huge balance of wisdom that needs to be going into dating. And I will say, in past relationships, I have majorly ignored red flags and to compromise for those really big feelings to just try to.

 

Chris [00:21:26] Like this big feeling is there. It must be love and therefore this will work out. Yes, this has got going to be a problem because he will change or I will.

 

Tatum [00:21:37] Yes. And it was that. It was. Oh, he'll change in the future. I'll change him. The Lord like work on his heart. Like I know you got him, but the patterns were telling me otherwise.

 

Chris [00:21:49] It's great the words you're using. Like what would be some common, let's say, things that you should be looking out for there? Someone's go. Okay, well, what's a red flag then? I'll tell you. For me, red flag was when I'm dating somebody and they kind of showed. A little bit lack of playfulness. And in fact, when I would be playful and do some things, this person kind of reacted strongly one time, like they were a little bit stressed. So he take first question and then and I should have done it. I took a piece of paper, we're studying it in her dorm room, and I crumpled up a piece of paper. Tatum and I just threw it at her. Right. She's over there studying, and she turned around and goes. Chris, stop and study. And this is. And I went, oh, okay. Well, playful Chris, it didn't stop. You know, five minutes later, he takes a piece of, I take this paper key and I just wing at her again. Well, her reaction again was pretty strong. Like, stop, I'm studying and you're distracting me. And I'm thinking it's weird, but. And of course, I did it a third time, which I regret.

 

Tatum [00:23:05] That time's a charm.

 

Chris [00:23:06] If your time's a charm. We no longer dated by chance. Yeah, okay. A red flag was. She seemed to respond not as playfully, but also didn't really handle that very well and kind of lashed out a little bit. You know, that's messed up, that is. But I didn't like her enough to go. Oh, overlook that for a while. I'm so glad I did it because I think that would be a tough marriage.

 

Tatum [00:23:31] Yeah, especially because you are so playful.

 

Chris [00:23:33] Yeah.

 

Tatum [00:23:33] And funny.

 

Chris [00:23:34] Well, thanks. Yeah. Yeah, I am playful. And so I married somebody who is just as playful and more funny. I go like this to Elisa Weaver. I knew she was the perfect one for me. Today we're sitting at a restaurant. I don't know if we're engaged yet or in a restaurant. Very busy. And I just dip my hand in the water and she's, you know, we're eating is toward the end of the meal, and I just go fling right at her, and she just looks at me, you know, there's no way. She looks at me and she goes, oh, I wouldn't do that if I were you. But she had the smile, playful look like that was funny. And in my mind I'm thinking, you know, I wouldn't do that if it was like a mild, not a threat. But she's strong, you know? And I'm like, oh, come on, you don't really scare me, Tatum. I did it again. But funny. So I just dipped in I think she goes, I'm okay. I'm just warning you. I wouldn't do that if I were you go, oh no. Oh, at least that doesn't really scare me, you know? And of course, a third times, you know, apparently there's some pattern here. So I did it the third time Tatum and I went like this, I did it. She picked up her glass.

 

Tatum [00:24:35] Oh, yes.

 

Chris [00:24:36] I just went.

 

Tatum [00:24:37] With and.

 

Chris [00:24:40] Covered me with water.

 

Tatum [00:24:42] We're in the middle of a restaurant.

 

Chris [00:24:44] And she says your business that much? I'm like, no, it was.

 

Tatum [00:24:47] A full glass on the floor.

 

Chris [00:24:50] And I'm just sitting there stunned. One kind of attractive, I'll be honest with you. Is that because she just smiled and then she unable to. On the same day, I'm kind of scared.

 

Tatum [00:25:00] Like what just happened? I'm like, who is this woman?

 

Chris [00:25:04] Who are you? I find that kind of attractive. But you're just smiling at me and. And as you. Because you would like to know my philosophy. And I'm like, I think all of us in the restaurant want to know your philosophy, including me. She goes, okay, here it is. I don't get mad and I don't get even. She goes, I get ahead.

 

Tatum [00:25:22] Oh, really?

 

Chris [00:25:24] Oh, yeah. Yeah, man. And so, hey, she's playful. Be. It's fun. And if it was just water, it's so. So from then on I would do it just once. Later on, something else she goes. That's one. And I never got to three again.

 

Tatum [00:25:39] Never.

 

Chris [00:25:39] Okay, hold on now. What that meant was she was. There was just this playfulness part to her that I went, oh, man, she could match anybody. And I love green flag. Green flag. When you look at ignoring things, what do you see? Some friends ignoring that you said you did right in past relationships? I certainly did. What are some of the biggest ones we might ignore that you might find? Like we're different in maybe spiritual values or they don't. Maybe I've heard some complain like, well, you'll get better or she'll show more initiative or yeah.

 

Tatum [00:26:24] So I think the initiative one or pursue I know I want him to pursue me is such like a such a common phrase, but for good reason. So, for example, I was in a really a long relationship before Noah. Long distance and fun, super fun story. We were long distance and I happened to be coming home one weekend and I said, hey, I'm coming home. I'd love to see you. When are you free? His response was, I'm too busy. I'm too busy. We hadn't seen each other in months. Mind you. So there's zero level of initiative or commitment. Almost. There was no pursuit.

 

Chris [00:27:06] Yeah, and that leaves you questioning the depth of his feelings through you. Even though he might have loved you deeply and cared, but he was just really, truly busy. But that's maybe not the right way to go about doing it to to express to you that my level of care for you is such. I will drop anything. Yeah, because now that's a sign that in the future. He may not be as able or willing to drop everything and give me his all.

 

Tatum [00:27:39] And this wasn't like it became a pattern. And I think that's easy. It's easy to make excuses for the person or just be like, he's just in a really bad season. I know he'll come around for me eventually, but people tend to ignore that one, and I can't tell you how much better it feels to truly feel for shit, and that anyone would drop anything for you.

 

Chris [00:28:00] That's great. I would love that. I knew that about my wife right away. I became her number one priority behind God and her mind. Well, you know, when it comes to money and marriage, we all want clarity and confidence, right? And especially unity with spouses. Right? I think, Lisa, that's why we get to work personally with Colby Gilmore of of Blue Trust.

 

Tatum [00:28:27] That's right. Colby Gilmore, along with other Blue Trust certified Wealth strategists, offers personalized, biblically centered financial planning and investment management services. No matter what your income level.

 

Chris [00:28:41] Is, Lisa say that title Twice Blue Trust Certified Wealth strategist. That's a tough one.

 

Tatum [00:28:46] Sure I could I know.

 

Chris [00:28:47] So they put they do put client's best interest first and they don't sell financial products. I love that about them.

 

Tatum [00:28:53] Me too. And you know what? We highly recommend Colby Gilmore and Blue Trust for anyone looking for both financial unity with your spouse and opportunities to increase your wealth and your generosity.

 

Chris [00:29:06] So if you guys want to check out Ron blue.com, or reach out to Colby Gilmore at Colby Dot Gilmore at Ron blue.com, that's Colby Dot Gilmore at Ron blue.com. I think you guys will be glad you did. So we're asking these questions and the questions that I think come up. And the reason why you're a great guest today is because what are some questions I need to consider or we need to consider before engagement? Let's try one of those questions. Tatum, how important is it for someone who is thinking about taking their relationship to the next level? You know, they're seriously dating, but they were like, what is this? Let me ask you about a question that I think is very important. How do they deal with taking responsibility for things? So it goes like this. Are you both good at taking responsibility for your actions? And are you both good resolvers? I guess in some ways. Or are you more of the blame or the avoider? And those are important patterns to look out for. But by the way, we're going to use that word patterns a lot because 1 or 2 times, you know, somebody maybe says, oh, it's not my fault. It was, you know, my boss's fault or it was that guy's fault in me. Okay, but is that pattern of constantly avoiding taking responsibility? So in that case, here's here's a great question. Do you when you have conflict, do you both own up or to your mistakes pretty well? Yeah. And that's a little bit that's hard because if I own up to my mistake to my wife, then I have to kind of humble myself and go, oh my gosh, I was wrong. And admitting that is hard, but how important that is to know before you get married or before you get engaged.

 

Tatum [00:31:10] I one of the biggest things that I've learned being married again so much, you can learn in five months. But the biggest thing that I've learned is how messed up I am. I have learned how prideful I am, and the one of the biggest things I've had to learn is how to lay down that pride and be humbled. Humble enough to say I'm really sorry. Like I messed up and that's on me. And I've yeah, I have not learned so much about it in my whole life than the past five months, which is it was a big surprise for me. How much, how much like they see the ugliness in, you.

 

Chris [00:31:50] Know, what a great insight the what happens during those, those early months and in that first year to prepare for that before you get engaged. What happens during that time is you begin to realize that you're married to the second most selfish, you know, person in the world. You're right. You're married to this. And it's like.

 

Tatum [00:32:17] Oh.

 

Chris [00:32:18] What's going on here? Yes. And I think Tatum, what ends up happening is to be able to say, first of all, I made a mistake. Takes humility. Like you said, it takes a lot of self insight, but it takes the ability to also forgive not just the other person but yourself and go, okay, hold on, I need to ask for forgiveness or say I'm sorry I was wrong. Please forgive me. Right? Nine most critical words that you learn maybe not right away, but you will learn I was wrong. I'm sorry. Please forgive me. Man. It's hard. It's real hard because you have issues that you have. I had, I brought to my marriage that you bring with Noah and he brings them in. Why is it so hard for us to do that? To admit mistakes? Or you said, you know, you know, there's stuff going on. That's the first. There's no other stuff going on. But why is it so hard, do you think, for people to do that?

 

Tatum [00:33:21] We are naturally so prideful, Chris.

 

Chris [00:33:23] Yeah. You think it's pride, you know?

 

Tatum [00:33:25] I mean, I do. What do you think?

 

Chris [00:33:27] No, I think it's pride. I think you I think you're prideful. I think you're.

 

Tatum [00:33:30] Right. It's worse. It's prideful employee, prideful life.

 

Chris [00:33:36] It's not my issue. I'm not right. I just have a lot of self-confidence. And it's really other people's sin and struggles. Police show, you know, it is it? I. I guess it is a sense of fear, of disappointing that it's both of pride, but fear of not living up to something that really for me is, oh my gosh, that means I'm not as good as I thought. And I'm. And to admit that is like, oh no, no, she's really going to not like me or evaluate me or hold me on the pedestal, or if I have to be if I'm this mistaken. Yeah.

 

Tatum [00:34:15] You know what's so interesting? When we first got married, knows, like, I'm I'm having to come to terms with that. You're not perfect. And I was like, you know what? I was perfect. Oh, you're like, oh, you're in for a treat. But I was just like, that's a big one. Like, he's now seeing the ugliness and I can't keep up this facade or whatever he thought it was. It's like, I'm not forgiving. And they're saying all that when you take ownership.

 

Chris [00:34:41] Yeah. And so here's the question that you should ask before you get engaged. How does the other person respond when they've made a mistake, when they're not perfect? Do they run hide. Do they blame you know, do they say, oh, well, if you would be nicer while you're the one that caused me this? Or if you weren't so late or you would get so mad.

 

Tatum [00:35:01] I'm sorry you feel that way.

 

Chris [00:35:03] Yeah. That's right. So what a great question to know. And the only way you can know that, by the way, is, like you said, if you go through these seasons, right, spring, summer, fall and winter in your relationship and you start exploring these, by the way, premarital counseling, how important is that?

 

Tatum [00:35:20] It is vital.

 

Chris [00:35:22] Research shows you can lower your divorce rate, your chance of getting a divorce by 31%. Scott Stanley, University of Denver, Harold Markman, University of Denver, all said the same thing. You can lower your risk of divorce. One of the best lowers.

 

Tatum [00:35:40] Lowers.

 

Chris [00:35:42] Is is premarital counseling. And these are the questions that if you came to divorce, I would say, okay, ready? How do you deal with mistakes? How do you deal with blame? How do you deal with criticism? How do you deal with when you make a mistake?

 

Tatum [00:35:54] And I think even knowing these questions, you can then practice. Oh yeah. And I wish I practiced being more graceful. Being more forgiving. Taking ownership of those things of, well, dating, you.

 

Chris [00:36:08] Know, what would you done differently? Like would you have just said, I need to practice being humble or need to admit more rather than trying to show a facade? Do you think you think it's too easy to show the facade and bring our best selves? You would show your. They called it one reserve or I think they choose. Just a writer called it front porch. Me used to sit out on the front porch a lot and tell the neighbors, well, are you on the front porch? You're going to act your best, you know? But back porch you is. When no one sees what I do and how I treat my wife, my kids, the neighbors is that back porch that no one sees. Is that what you're talking about? You would bring more of your stuff?

 

Tatum [00:36:50] I think I would just yeah, it's not so. I mean, when you're dating, you only see each other one 7 or 8 times a week. Yeah, yeah. Now I'm seeing our every day and like, I'm bringing, like, if I have a tough day here, whatever. I'm bringing that stuff home. It's not like I can just go process by myself or with my mom like I'm crazy. Same with him and you seeing all that stuff, but not so much that. But just like when when I offend him or hurt him just being like, hey, I'm really sorry I struggle with this thing. I struggle with that thinking and being really honest right there. Instead of just being like, yeah, I'm sorry you feel that way. That sucks. You know, like that's one way to ruin an apology. Really, really. Just starting that ownership and exploring the why behind that when you're dating.

 

Chris [00:37:40] Oh man, I love that great pattern to look for before you get engaged is how does a person own up and do they blame. Do they shift? Are they able to say what you just said? Man, I can tell I hurt you and I'm really sorry or I offended you. And please forgive me and help me to work on this and let's talk about it. Here's another one. Are you genuinely, genuinely are you genuinely attracted to this person or are you just afraid of being alone? Oh yeah, I'm getting older. I have about to graduate or I've graduated. I'm now in my late 20s and I'm afraid of just being alone, and this person just is conveniently there. They have a lot of the good qualities. Men. If you're in that position, you better start asking some deep questions. Are you just afraid of being alone, or is this something that is genuine and strong? What do you think?

 

Tatum [00:38:42] I think that a lot of people, even up till I hate to say it, subtle. Yeah, I think they settle out of fear of being alone. Maybe like. Oh, my parents like him. He's. He's this, that and the other. He he's a Christian Ministry is major and, you know, whatever it is. But they settle out of fear of being alone. Maybe all your friends are engaged or whatever the case may be. It's easy when it's convenient.

 

Chris [00:39:10] Yeah. The word settling, it's a it's a it's a scary word that you need to ask if you find yourself wondering if you are not. I think there are some questions to ask and that is. To what degree are you dealing with your loneliness and are you okay being single? How are you going to be okay with God? Like if this is what he called me to, I'd rather do this. Then make the mistake of settling. Right. And that's an important question. Are you in a place where you love God so much and you just you're like, you know what, God, I want to be married. You. I have a desire. You gave me this desire. But I'm okay because I know that you've got me, and I want to be with you. I don't want to settle. Yeah. How do you. You know, what are some signs? Are there anything that you would say like. Here's one. Ready? Am I choosing this person out of love and compatibility? Are you fear singleness or is you? Are you just choosing this person that, like you said, comfort or pressure from your parents or convenience or convenience, or it's because we really are better together. We we make each other better and I'm highly attracted to them or what have you. Tough questions I ask.

 

Tatum [00:40:29] I think the, the biggest, biggest thing, and I even said this in my wedding vows is do they make me more like Jesus? And genuinely ask yourself that question, not just like, oh yeah, surely like we do Bible studies together and that's good enough. But do they actually make me look like Jesus? Do they push me towards holiness and and all that good stuff? Because if you can't answer yes, that I wouldn't want to live a life with them.

 

Chris [00:40:53] No. That's great. One of the coolest things when you've been married a long time is, is being able to watch your spouse grow in their love for God, and know that that's first for them. So in my marriage, my wife's love for God is supreme and and and important. And I play a role in that in getting her to a place, or providing the situation or the context for her to thrive with God is. So let's say she thrives or loves God whenever she's worshiping, or whenever she's in nature, or whenever she's praying, or if she's reading a great book. Well, my job is to figure out where does she thrive and get her there. You know, maybe it's again, if it's worship and singing, then we need to be in places where we're where she's worshiping and singing, right? And, and and making sure that that is for her available and accessible. And so we've had to learn that we've had podcasts on that about spiritual temperaments. Go listen to that one if you want. On what is your spouse's spiritual temperament? But are they making you more like Jesus? Right? That's a really important question.

 

Tatum [00:42:05] Yeah, and not in a legalistic sense. Yeah. And it means just like, are they am I producing the characteristics that Jesus portrayed in the Bible because of my time spent with them.

 

Chris [00:42:18] Are you more kind? Peaceful. Joyful? Right. We have the fruits of the spirit. We have all of those listed there. Let's try another one. This says, am I willing to love this person? Who they are right now or who they will become? So now we're getting to your heart. You're saying a pattern's my wife's favorite saying you should be dating and thinking about getting engaged and who they are based upon patterns, not potential.

 

Tatum [00:42:49] Yes.

 

Chris [00:42:50] I mean, this is the idea, that potential. And so what does that mean to them for you guys? When you were dating Noah, you were definitely going, whoa. If you were saying, oh, I think Noah will be a good guy at one point, he'll be more of who? That's like potential, but it's not.

 

Tatum [00:43:09] Promised.

 

Chris [00:43:09] That's right. It's you don't know, but it's. And that's especially the reason why. Yeah. It's never that potential. Yeah. How important is that for couples to consider before they get engaged? And how do they know? How did they know that they're looking at a pattern rather than a potential?

 

Tatum [00:43:26] Yeah. So one big thing for me when I was looking today, I highly recommend making a list of your non-negotiables before you start dating.

 

Chris [00:43:35] That's great.

 

Tatum [00:43:35] Godly man. They include people. They're they're empathetic, whatever your list may be.

 

Chris [00:43:41] Humor is playful. Kind.

 

Tatum [00:43:44] Yes. You know, whatever it is. One of the things on my list is that they would go out of their way to include people. So before now, when I started dating, I would watch him. Not in a creepy way, but like I would have.

 

Chris [00:44:00] At least you didn't think it was crazy. There are some people that came to me said yes and no. Said, man, it's a little creepy. So you watching it anyway?

 

Tatum [00:44:08] So, you know, I would just watch around campus, observe him And. There was one day that there was a guy on his dorm floor sitting alone, and him and his buddies were going to lunch, and he went outside his group and to say, hey, like, do you want to join us for lunch? Someone who was alone and I was like, oh my gosh. And then I saw it multiple times and I was like, okay, this is a potential this is a clear pattern. He doesn't know I'm watching. Yeah. He's not doing it to try to impress me. Like, I know this is this is his life. This is who he is. It's not something who he he will be that he already is.

 

Chris [00:44:44] I love that Tatum. By the way, just as an aside, our kids, we kind of we're blessed and have been blessed by three amazing kids who I would say for whatever reason, maybe the I don't know, maybe they modeled it or saw it from somebody or even and us, we're so inclusive, you know, they would bring in the the kid that was in the kindergarten class or the third grade class that was the outsider and inside? Come on over. Come to my birthday party. It was just the most beautiful trait in a kid you can hope for. Pray for that. For your kids, okay? When you are about to get engaged, you need to have a list. You need to know what's important because for some people, they wouldn't even think about it if they inclusive or not, it doesn't matter to them. But for you, you had to know that. Yeah. And then you had to be able to see that. And then you had to say, this is what I want in someone and and love right there and accepting them for who they are, knowing they may never change. Yeah. What's the you know, great counseling I think, for some is are you comfortable marrying this person today knowing they might not ever change that? Is it? Will you be okay or are you wanting to get engaged and marry them, hoping they will become more of a pursuer, more of a leader, more of a helper, more of whatever the trait might be. She's going to one day. Yeah, be more of more kind to strangers. But right now she's a little bit rude to that. We're. Well, yeah, let's talk about that.

 

Tatum [00:46:22] Yeah. And that it is a red flag.

 

Chris [00:46:23] That is a red flag. I think you're right. All right, let's try one more. Okay. I think this is I don't know, this one makes sense, but do you agree on matter on on matters that are most important. All right. Those things that are most important to you, those issues, those ideas, beliefs, values. Do you agree on them and what level of difference and then in what area of value this. But I think this is so important datum that you guys I know you and Noah, you thought, wow, we're pretty compatible. And in fact, we agree you don't have to agree on everything, right? But this is probably why we're seeing fewer and fewer marriages. I don't know if you know this beat we used. You used to find values like spirituality. Like Catholics wouldn't marry Protestants. You know, back in the 40s, 50s, 60s. I mean, those were big deals, right? Somebody who was from a small town may not want somebody that's from a big town. Let's say they're different. You know what? Today one almost everybody says that is almost a void or a gap that's not bridge able is if that is pull up politics. If someone's Republican and someone's Democrat, you almost always find that is a gap that's too big. I had some amazing to me, but it but what it may be is a reflection of we don't have time to get into it could be. Well, what I have a certain value that I hold if I'm, let's say, a Democrat, I have these things that are common to Democrats to. And Republicans might have different. Well, here's the question, though. On matters like that that are most important. Do you agree? What would be some of those that you and Noah definitely had to agree on before you were able to say, let's get engaged?

 

Tatum [00:48:21] Yeah. Well, I think there's your typical ones, like your relationship with God. Did they have.

 

Chris [00:48:27] One like.

 

Tatum [00:48:28] At the most basic level? They have relationship with God. Are they pursuing him?

 

Chris [00:48:34] Ooh. Having children. So he every somebody who's like, man, I want five. And she's like he's like, oh yeah, I'm not sure I even want any. Yeah, that could be a big flag right there.

 

Tatum [00:48:46] But even location.

 

Chris [00:48:48] Where you want to live.

 

Tatum [00:48:49] That's a big one. Overseas. Yeah.

 

Chris [00:48:52] The coast. Small town. Small state.

 

Tatum [00:48:56] Yeah. For us my a big one for me was like, I really want to have an open house, I want it I want people to be able to come over whenever they want. Some people are really close off, and they want their home to be kind of like a safe space. That was a big one for me.

 

Chris [00:49:10] Yeah. And those are values that that obviously range from kind of important to essential. So maybe the open house. What if Noah said, yeah, I don't really want that. He had all the other ones. That would be.

 

Tatum [00:49:26] Okay. No, that would be a yellow. A yellow flag in my head. Like it wouldn't it wouldn't be make or break. But it was still important.

 

Chris [00:49:34] So we. So then it sounds like dated. One of the things that the couple is thinking about engagement or taking their relationship to the next step. They really do need to think through what do I value? But what do I want in another person? And if they don't want to have kids, how important is that right? If they don't share my faith of going to church not just on Sunday but Wednesday night, and you know, you're involved in the men's group and you lead a Sunday school class. They're like, yeah, they just want to attend. Like, okay, are our values different?

 

Tatum [00:50:04] Well, and I think that's why it's so important to make that list ahead of time. Great. Just to know exactly what you want.

 

Chris [00:50:10] You made a list?

 

Tatum [00:50:11] Yeah.

 

Chris [00:50:13] And. No. Obviously met your list.

 

Tatum [00:50:15] You met enough.

 

Chris [00:50:16] You know we not have that perfect list, right? Lisa made, like, 99 out of 100. And it's just. It was. Did she love the Denver Broncos? I'm like, Lisa, how could you not know who this team is. And you kind of heard of the Dodgers. But who are the Dallas Cowboys and why. So she switched her affinity from the Cowboys to the Broncos I am what I'm marrying you.

 

Tatum [00:50:39] But she knew how much it mattered to you. And then she memorized all the players.

 

Chris [00:50:43] That's. Yeah, she knows all the players on the Dodger starting team. You know, starting lineup. I'm so attracted to that. But but so what you're saying is and what I'm were kind of getting at is before you make that step, there are some very important things that you have to agree on. Yes. And they could be big issues. Faith. They could be values politics, and maybe it could be something as simple as do they value? Would they want children? Do they like their parents and their families.

 

Tatum [00:51:15] Spending Christmas with you? Yeah.

 

Chris [00:51:18] That's great.

 

Tatum [00:51:19] Something so silly.

 

Chris [00:51:20] Yeah. And then that leads to to that last one. It's kind of that same thing. Are you compatible in the areas you know of what you enjoy doing. Right. But also this idea of, you know, do you attach to me? It makes you feel safe.

 

Tatum [00:51:38] Yes.

 

Chris [00:51:39] The those values are I'm going to be accepted and loved when those are there. And I think it's a final question. Do you feel safe with this person emotionally, physically, spiritually to be yourself, to express your.

 

Tatum [00:51:51] Values? One of the questions my parents always ask is when we start dating someone new, or I guess it's just my siblings now who are people? Can you be yourself with them? It is such a big one.

 

Chris [00:52:02] Difference. Great. Great question.

 

Tatum [00:52:04] Because you can't be yourself if you don't feel safe.

 

Chris [00:52:07] Yeah that's right. I love that. What a great way to end if you're thinking about getting engaged. Can you be yourself with this person? Can you be playful? Can you be fun? Can you love Jesus? Can you do this and feel safe, accepted, and loved by them and vulnerable with them? And if so, man, a lot of your red flags are going to go down and not even be ever be raised, actually. And those are good signs. Tatum you and no man, thank you for joining us on this is.

 

Tatum [00:52:37] For having I.

 

Chris [00:52:37] Guess yeah. It's such an important question for people to be asking especially before they get engaged, which also we recommend pre engagement counseling here at our center.

 

Tatum [00:52:48] Which is hosted every semester.

 

Chris [00:52:50] Well we have groups here at Biola. And if you're not here at the in Southern California you can still check out some of our resources. In fact date them, tell them where to go if they want some more resource resources from the center.

 

Tatum [00:53:03] So you can find this list of questions in the show notes below, plus a few extra ones. You can find more information about our center at CMR.Biola.Edu. Check out more episodes on the order of relationships you where where you stream your podcast.

 

Chris [00:53:19] Yeah, blogs we have out there. We have articles that are long and short but really helpful. We have all kinds of resources.

 

Tatum [00:53:28] Yes, lots of them.

 

Chris [00:53:29] Thank you for joining us today. Dana, thank you for being an amazing guest. You did awesome. Thanks. And thanks for being marriage experience to five months.

 

Tatum [00:53:36] Yeah.

 

Chris [00:53:37] Bring some help to those that are there. Way to go. So we'll see you next time. Bye bye.

 

Mandy [00:53:43] We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on the Art of relationships.