In this episode, Chris and Alisa Grace are joined by Tatum Munivez to answer some of the burning marriage questions couples are really asking. From keeping physical intimacy alive when you're exhausted to navigating disagreement, reconnecting when your marriage feels distant, setting healthy boundaries with difficult in-laws, and building a more Christ-centered home, they tackle real challenges that can show up in every season of marriage.

Chris and Alisa share practical, biblical wisdom for listening to understand, validating your spouse even when you disagree, prioritizing your marriage, seeking help when you're struggling, and growing together spiritually. Whether you're newly married, raising kids, walking through a difficult season, or simply wanting to strengthen your connection with your spouse, this episode offers encouragement and tangible ways to pursue a healthier, more connected marriage.

Resources Mentioned:

• Spiritual Intimacy Scale - A 28-question assessment from Dr. Chris and Alisa Grace to help couples measure and grow the spiritual closeness in their marriage. Download the Spiritual Intimacy Scale
• The Sacred Pathways - A self-assessment based on Gary Thomas's work to help you discover which of the nine spiritual temperaments best describes how you connect with God. Take the Sacred Pathways Assessment
• Going Deeper Together: Spiritual Armor Required - A five-lesson course designed to help couples recognize the enemy's tactics and stand strong together using practical, biblical tools. Learn More

Connect with Us:

• Website: cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: youtube.com/@biola-cmr

Join the Conversation:

• Subscribe to The Art of Relationships Podcast to never miss an episode.
• Leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to help others discover the show.
• Share this episode with someone who could benefit from these relationship insights.
• Have a burning relationship question? Email us at cmr@biola.edu, and we may answer it in a future episode.
• Sign up for weekly updates and resources from the Center for Marriage and Relationships! http://eepurl.com/bgsuQv

About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

—————

Mandy: 00:01
Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

Chris: 00:11
Welcome to another Art of Relationships podcast. This has been um a wonderful opportunity, Lisa, to take questions on this podcast that we regularly receive, right, in our offices. We have Rachel Pestana, who is the assistant to the directors who gathers and helps gather all these questions.

Alisa: 00:33
Great. Thank you, Rachel.

Chris: 00:34
And we have Tatum Unives here who's going to join us and asking some of these questions because they come in, whether we're speaking with focus or family life or in our own conferences. And uh as we're talking with Tatum, she goes, Man, we need to address some of these uh on a podcast. Yep.

Alisa: 00:52
So we invited Tatum to join us as our third co-host. Welcome, Tatum. Welcome. Thanks for having us.

Chris: 00:58
And Rachel behind them behind the camera work. Good job.

Alisa: 01:01
Yeah. Okay, so kick it off, Tatum.

Tatum: 01:04
We are going to be answering some burning questions about marriage today. Um, starting it off very strong. How do you keep the sex drive going after being exhausted from the day?

Chris: 01:15
Oh, yeah. I I would imagine, did you write down this?

Alisa: 01:20
Um, but I could have in the throws of raising kids. I totally get that.

Chris: 01:24
We all could have. Yeah, how do you keep that interest, that passion going? I think, okay, first thing I would recommend is if in your marriage you're starting to find that it you're you're tired, the other person's tired, life is busy, and the last thing either one of you wants to think about is sex. Uh, I would say start with a definition of what physical intimacy is. It doesn't have to be a full eight-course dinner every time. Sometimes we think, oh, okay, sex involves X and then Y and then Z, and then we got to go all the way back to A, B, and C, and it involves all of these wonderful things that you know take an hour.

Alisa: 02:10
Which can be good.

Chris: 02:11
Which eight-course meals are awesome. But, but sex and and reconnecting sometimes could just be a very simple act. You just get to A and B and you call it a night, and that's okay. Some couples are like, oh, but sex has always got to have this and candles and that. I'm like, yeah, it should. But not when you're always tired and busy. It's okay for a two-minute quickie. Okay, well, you don't have to mention time. I mean, well, why two-minute quickie? Why not come on, kid?

Alisa: 02:47
And that there is no hidden message behind that. But seriously, we if we're assuming that it always has to be an eight-course meal, then of course there life happens. But let's don't underestimate um number one, planning your sexual intimacy, planning your love time. So uh maybe it's a time when the kids are off at a wanna's on a Wednesday night. Maybe it's a Saturday afternoon. Hey kids, we're gonna go take a nap. But we'll see, you know, we'll see you later. And you always make sure there is a lock on the door.

Chris: 03:21
Yeah. But uh, kids, you also say, hey, I don't care if you're bleeding. If you see bone, you know, sticking out of a leg or arm, then you come and in a few. If you see Jesus, you come and get exactly otherwise do not touch the what you're saying, I think, is great. Lisa, it says find those times that you can schedule in ahead of time.

Alisa: 03:47
And then you anticipate it, you build it up, you know, and so scheduling intimacy is definitely okay. Now you don't want to just rely on that because then that can become routine, right? And so you want to sprinkle some times of of spontaneity in there. Maybe, maybe you're in that rut in a routine, and you just need to be a little more creative with when, with where, with how, you know, you just gotta get out of the rut because if if you're just in doing the same things and and if you you're you have some assumptions it has to be a certain way, then it feels more like a duty instead of you know, a fun time to reconnect.

Chris: 04:32
And thank you for not sharing details about wear and anything else.

Tatum: 04:36
We'll save that for that's another podcast when our kids aren't listening. That's hilarious. Um on a completely different side of things, it is very hard to validate my spouse when I disagree with him. What should I do?

Chris: 04:51
Yeah, Lisa, I think validation. Uh uh, Tatum, what a great question. Um, because listen, you you are by the the deck, the moment you say I do is the moment you have said we are not going to agree on everything together, and you're gonna say some things that I just don't agree with, and you're gonna have some per views and perspectives, whether it's how to clean house or how to eat a certain kind of food or whether it's how to discipline a child, or misperceptions, or even misperceptions.

Alisa: 05:21
I perceive that that was really negative when maybe it really wasn't.

Chris: 05:25
Yeah, and so validation comes in, but not before something else. I mean, validation is at one point, right? It really takes some skill to be able to, first of all, be prepared to hear and listen, right? And I think that idea of better to be understanding than other understood comes in. Yeah, you have to be prepared to go. Wait a minute, Lisa. Can I just hear what you think about this whole thing about hosting people at our house? Why are you why is this going on with you? It's stressful, and I need to know why, because it's causing us some tension here, and I don't agree that the house should be 100% clean, or I but you do. So I need to hear, so I think working on myself and going, I don't agree with you. I don't know if I can actually validate any of this, and that's a sign in my heart that I'm not really ready to listen or understand you. So I need to work on that. I need to get to a point where like, all right, hold on here. I don't think I understand your position well enough to be able to validate you.

Alisa: 06:40
Yeah, so you what you're saying is uh one of the things we teach is listening to understand. Where when you're sharing something maybe that I've done that's hurt your feelings, and that's really hard to hear, I don't like to hear that I've messed up. You know, nobody likes to hear that. And I may not even agree with your perspective on it, right? But when I'm listening to understand, that communicates to you that I'm willing to hear you because you are important to me. I love you and I care about you and what you have to say is important. And so uh I can I can repeat to myself, James 1.19, be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to get angry. Proverbs says that it's folly and shame to give an answer before you listen. And so when I'm feeling defensive, which I oftentimes will be, I can think of a thousand reasons that what you just said is wrong, that you misperceived it, I didn't really do that. But what I'm gonna do in healthy communication is to set that aside and to listen to understand. So ask questions. When you say that, Chris, can you tell me a little bit more about that and uh and how you feel about that? And then the second thing is not only listen to understand, but to be willing to put yourself in their shoes, to see it from their perspective. And that's just saying to myself, how would I feel if I were in Chris's shoes and he did that to me? He said that to me. You know what? I might actually respond the same way. Because this is the thing. I'm I'm more close to being right when I'm willing to admit maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I did do something, maybe I could have said that a little nicer. Maybe I was a little too snippy, maybe I am getting too stressed out about having people here at the house and I'm just become like the Gestapo, the, you know, the grace Gestapo. Um, so being closer, I'm closer to being right when I'm able to admit that maybe I'm wrong, maybe I've done something wrong, put myself in your shoes, be willing to hear it from your perspective, and then I'm it's much easier to validate you when I've heard your perspective and I can say, yeah, I would feel that way too. Then I can empathize with you. I can see it from your perspective. And when I feel that empathy, I'm much more willing to own it and change my own behavior.

Tatum: 09:16
I love that you mentioned listening before speaking. I heard a quote that says, There's a reason why we have two ears and one mouth. Yeah, God knew what it is. He did know what he was doing. Quick to listen, quick to listen, slow to speak. Um the next question from a married couple says, We know it's easier to quit when the going gets tough, but what would you tell a couple when they're hurting and are having a hard time reconnecting?

Chris: 09:43
It is much easier to quit, but I mean, what in any conflict, right? I mean, that happens to me a lot when I just think it's no longer worth it to keep arguing about this same thing. We never agree, we never get to a point, and it just hurts. It hurts you, it hurts me. There's a mistake here, what's going on? And I and I think when a person feels that way, I know when I feel that way, it becomes um almost a self-defeating thought that kind of feeds on itself because okay, I we just never gonna figure this out. This is just too hard, and pretty soon it gets easier and easier to just slowly disconnect and stay away. And I use been trying to use that as okay, hold on here. Let me think of this as a dashboard light, and that dashboard on my soul is blinking, and there's something wrong with isolation, there's something wrong with not talking, there's something wrong with disconnecting, and it's going to need a checkup, but that checkups is gonna start with me. So I think one of the things that I have tried to do is take Psalm, you know, 139, you know, verses third 32 and 23, 24, and ask God to search me, you know, search my heart, oh God, try me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there's any hurtful way in me, and lead me, you know, in the everlasting way. And that takes for me uh really to a to a place that's initially like, oh boy, I don't want to know about my heart in front of God, but it almost always reveals a place of um uh pain or a place of yeah, woundedness that oh, wait a minute, this is coming from something here. Our conflict together is really starting here in a place that needs to be kind of opened up to God's healing, to God's grace, to God's perspective. And I think in our conflicts, when I do that early on, it brings a new level of, oh, wait a minute, this can actually be used to bring us closer together. I wish I could remember that for the future. That is, when we have a certain conflict and it's just hard and we're not catching and we're not agreeing on the same thing, the result is almost always of that conflict a strengthening of the relationship. It's hard to search, it's hard to go down here, it's hard to admit, you know, I'm wrong. But when I do that, I think what ends up happening is I become better at hearing God, at recognizing where this comes from, and it almost always results in greater intimacy with you because it results in a greater understanding of oh, this conflict is a lot to do with some unmet, un you know, talked about feelings that I have, and I can control that. I I can fix this, I can work on this with God's help, and it brings to light not just me, but a deeper connection that you now have of me when I share that with you.

Alisa: 13:26
Yeah, gosh, that's really good, Chris. I think I think you're absolutely right. Um I think another thing that I would tell a couple if they're they're feeling like wow, it's you know, there's no hope, is that number one, there's always hope. There is always hope. We were at a point in in our relationship, I think we've been married about six years. Yeah, we it wasn't very long down the road. We had two young children, like a two-year-old and a six-month-old. And I remember us sitting on the back porch in the dark, our chairs were about two feet apart, and I just remember tears coming down my face and saying, This is not what I signed up for. I am not happy, you're not happy. We have got to do something different because we would this we can't keep doing this. This is not working. I'm not happy. I know you're not, so we got to do something different. And um, too many couples stop right there. And instead, what I would encourage them to do is number one, go get help. There are so many really good, well-qualified, well-trained, well-vetted Christian therapists that are out there. We can help with referrals if people need them, but go get help, don't wait. Because there are people that this is their calling, this is their vocation from God is to help people just like you. And so don't give up. He look what we would have missed if we would have given up. It would have been so easy to call it then. But here we are, 39 you know, years married in just a few days. And look at what all has happened from year seven to year 39, and look what we would have missed if we had given up then. And so don't give up. There's always hope. There is help out there. And one of the biggest, I think one of the biggest fallacies also is that it will be easier if we split up. Very rarely. Now, sometimes given extenuating circumstances of abuse, addictions, um infidelity, sins that are uh just entrenched and are not getting better. Uh, in those cases, you know, then perhaps it is better. But uh, but for the most part, people are not better off uh down the road, a year, two, five years down the road after divorce, particularly for women. Usually their uh their standard of living has decreased, their income has decreased, they're working more as a single parent, and uh men's their health and well-being suffers as well. And so it actually is a fallacy that you would be better off uh going your own way.

Chris: 16:26
And part of that fallacy is because you bring yourself back into another relationship that is you're still bringing all of the things that you are either avoiding or not dealing with, you bring them to the next relationship, and that other person is bringing theirs.

Alisa: 16:44
Yeah, so as you come into it, if you're willing to go get help, I would encourage you to do that and to go in with the attitude of what do I need to do to make this work? Not just what do you need to change? Well, you tell him, because he needs to change. If he would change, we would be happy and everything would work out well. But it's coming in with, am I willing to do whatever it takes to save this marriage? And if so, what am I willing to change? And be willing to be open that maybe I'm on, maybe there's some things that I need to do to make this marriage work.

Chris: 17:17
Yeah, after uh seven years we're finding ourselves on this patio, both of us unhappy with lives and circumstances and for different reasons. Um, and I think what we did is we both walked away from that. Uh, and I know I did. I decided, okay, what do I know about one, my view on marriage? I have made a commitment, I'm never going to leave this relationship. I've made a vow. But two, what do I know about the person that right now I'm having this tension and conflict with? What do I know about her? And I went away and I remember going, golly, there's so much that I have just taken for granted and not called to mind. First thing I remember going is, all right, I know I got some issues, but I know she has some issues. And I could have gone away that day just concentrating on, all right, I got to fix this and she needs to fix that. But one of the kind of like counterintuitive things that I remember doing was, Mike, look at what I have. Look at what I've been kind of been ignoring or taking maybe advantage of, or just simply not calling to mind. And I began a list of the hospitals. I began a list of all of the things uh that you were uh who you were and what what attracted me to you and what you were like, and it started me in this process of learning how to take your perspective in all of the different ways and all the different things you were doing. I was like, well, yeah, of course she needs to do that. But it was slowly dawning on me after that talk that I had begun to one assume the worst, I'd been taking you for granted, and I've been unable to kind of come to a point where I, with my pride, was able to admit that I was in the wrong. And to come to that point of going, I've messed this up a little bit. Well, wait a minute, I messed this up a lot. What do I do to recapture that which was the flame that we had?

Tatum: 19:37
That's so good. Thank you for sharing that story.

Chris: 19:44
Have you ever felt that sometimes in marriage, like everything starts to pull you apart? And it's just not a coincidence, right?

Alisa: 19:51
Yeah, that you know, the Bible reminds us that we have a very real enemy who's been trying to divide couples since the Garden of Eden.

Chris: 20:00
At least I think it's why, and one of the things that led us to creating the Going Deeper Together, Spiritual Armour Required. It's a five-lesson course that equips couples to recognize the enemy's tactics and help you stand strong together.

Alisa: 20:14
And you'll discover the number one way the enemy gains an advantage and how to counter it with really practical biblical tools.

Speaker 4: 20:22
Isn't it true, Lisa? It's the your spouse isn't the enemy, is the enemy that's the enemy.

Alisa: 20:28
And if you want to protect and strengthen your marriage, this course is for you. So you'll find all the details in the show notes. So check it out.

Tatum: 20:41
Um This person writes in, How do I deal with difficult in-laws?

Chris: 20:47
Well, that's a question for me. That's a question for me to pass on to Alisa. We've been blessed with great in-laws. Um her family accepted me immediately. In fact, they're like, wow.

Alisa: 21:05
My mom was like, if you don't marry him, I will. She loved him.

Chris: 21:10
And my family was exactly the same. My dad fell in love with her, my mom did, our my brothers, everybody. So we've been blessed in that. But that doesn't mean it's been without tension at times. Um, and I think difficult in-laws, there's various levels of difficulty. We happen to maybe be a scale of three most of the time, as far as 10 is like, dear lord, let's move out of the country and maybe even the galaxy.

Alisa: 21:38
Going to witness protection.

Chris: 21:39
Witness protection, right? But we've never we've never really gotten to a 10, thank the Lord. But we know couples that have, and one of the things, whenever we've had difficulties, was something, Lisa, you communicated to me at the very beginning and at and continued every almost at every other checkup. Throughout the years, you would say, Chris, I love my family. You'd say, my mom, my sister, they're everything to me, and I love them and my dad. But if the moment ever comes where there is a side to take, I'm on your side. I'm taking your your side. If there's a even if I'm not sure who's right or wrong here, I'm with you, and I will always err on the side of being your partner, not taking their side. And I think it gave me the uh the not just the trust, but the safety and the security of knowing if something comes down where your mom said I did this or you she wanted that and I disagreed, or your family felt this, that you would take my side. And I remember going, that is so freeing to know that, and that you made it a priority. And even in front of them saying, Oh, we're here with you guys on this little mini vacation. But I'm going to be spending the day with Chris, and that is the most important thing to me. We'll see you guys tonight at coffee. And I remember just feeling, there you go, woman. There you go. That's how you do it. And I th and so it led me to do the same. And I think that was the one way we started that process of making sure we knew the order of priorities we are going to take, not just with in-laws, but even with children. Yeah. Right?

Alisa: 23:33
Yeah. And I I think another great thing to keep in mind is that when you get in, when you get married, your family of origin becomes your extended family. This is now my family. My loyalty, my priority is you. This is my family. They are now my extended family. That's a great word. And so I love what you said about you always take your spouse's side in whatever the argument, you have their back, you take their side. And then the second thing is whenever there's conflict with in-laws, and we as a team have decided what our approach is, what our perspective, or what we need to do, or whatever boundary, then whoever's parents it is needs to be the one to go talk to them. Like I don't go talk to Chris's mom or dad. He would talk to his mom and dad. I would talk to my parents. And so you need to be sure and do that.

Chris: 24:31
I think the reason we do that is because one, it's appropriate, but two, it shows that you are prioritizing your marriage and you're letting they need to know that from you. And that still means I can love them greatly, just like I love my children. But right, I'm gonna prioritize our relationship. I still gonna love them more than anything in the world, even like I love your parents, right? They're they're wonderful, they they raised you so well, and I want to praise them. And like you said, we have created a new family. Yeah, this is the heart of it, and we're going to protect that at all costs.

Tatum: 25:14
So good. Um, this is a large question, so maybe we'll end on this one. Um this couple says, We've been married for years and feels like we've tried everything. We're a couple who feels like two Christians living in a home together rather than being a Christ-centered home. How do we shift that?

Chris: 25:35
Did you say they've been married a year or how?

Alisa: 25:37
It says married for years.

Chris: 25:39
Oh, married for years, gotcha.

Alisa: 25:41
So we have a situation you're saying where two Christians are married, but they don't have a Christ-centered home. How do you start making that shift? Yes.

Tatum: 25:49
And maybe we can talk about what's the difference between the two.

Chris: 25:51
Yeah, great. No, it's a great question. Uh, what is the difference, uh, Lisa, between a Christ-centered home, right, which we all would value as the goal, right? In marriage for Christians, is I want versus eh, we're two Christians, we're married, but it's not necessarily where Jesus is Lord in both of our lives or in our together life.

Alisa: 26:15
Yeah, that's exactly right. Probably in a uh Christian home versus Christ-centered home. Uh, Christian home um is maybe more problem-focused. These are the problems that we have that we need to deal with versus um growth focused. Um, that, hey, this is an issue we're having. I want to hear your heart. I want to get to know your perspective on this, get to know you, and then love you through that. You left me through that. And so our relationship actually grows closer through the conflict, not divided. Um, there's probably like a focus is on an us versus you and me.

Chris: 26:56
Yeah, there's a focus on understanding rather than being understood.

Speaker 3: 27:00
Right.

Chris: 27:01
And a lot of Christian uh just two Christians are like, well, you need to understand me. You need to understand, you don't understand. I want you to hear me, versus, hold on here, let me try and understand you. I think that, right, is the ability to, I want to be interested in the other person, not just always trying to be interesting.

Alisa: 27:20
There's lots of ways in which Yeah, there's in it, maybe in a Christian home, um you you pray, you each pray, uh, but versus a Christ-centered home, we pray together, and it starts with Lord change me, not change him. That's good.

Chris: 27:39
Change for you. You know, as we as Datum, this question uh comes up. I I can't help but feeling like there is one thing that really helped us, and it's when we begin. Well, you know, you you dream about, oh, we're going to have quiet times every morning together. We're gonna wake up, we're gonna have coffee, we're gonna read God's word, we're gonna dissect the book of John the first week, and then we'll maybe jump to Revelations by the end of the year. We came in with very good intentions, medical scripture together, and well, yeah, it might work out. It just didn't work out that way. And and I think we started to kind of operate on, oh, well, you're a Christian, I'm a Christian, and to bring it into a Christ-centered home, I one of the things that I think that really helped was begin to identify not just the answer to this question for myself, which was where am I and what am I doing when I feel closest to God? It was learning to go, wait, where is she and what is she doing when she feels closest to God? And when we started to think about how then am I going to make that happen? If I know the answer to the question is you feel close to God when you're in worship and singing, and when you're in nature, for example, then my goal as your partner is to make sure and get you into those places. Well, what I was doing in the past was just kind of complaining about you wanting to sit in front during church and you clapping your hands during the times when other people clapped, and you using your actual voice to sing worship songs. And I was sitting there going, This is so uncomfortable. Why can't we be in the back row? Everybody's looking at me. Worship and music in a church just really wasn't me. And I took that as an opportunity to share with you how wrong you were and how right I was to sit in the back, or we can miss it. Well, I'm like, no, let's not do this. And and I really missed what it meant to make that more available to you because it softened your heart, it made felt and you felt closer to God and it helped us.

Alisa: 30:00
Yeah, so what you're talking about are spiritual temperaments.

Chris: 30:02
Yeah, and knowing those was the beginning of understanding, oh, how do I get you into the center of Christ? Part of Christ-centeredness means what does it mean to get us in our home in Christ-centeredness? But it starts with, where do you feel the center? Where are you most likely?

Alisa: 30:21
And that kind of conversation is so good because if your temperament is different from mine, I might make the mistake of assuming you're not as spiritual as me because you don't approach God the way I do. And that would be a total misperception instead of recognizing the richness of your temperament, which is very different from mine, and maybe we could actually learn from each other or engage with each other, and as well as making sure we protect that temperament. So where my spiritual gift might be being out in nature, yours is being more contemplative, um, then I want to make space and make time for you to be able to engage in contemplative time with the Lord. You want to make space for me to be able to be out in nature, but then also to participate with each other. And then not only praying for each other, but praying with each other. That's great. And if that feels uncomfortable, maybe that's something like just praying together a blessing over each other, just thanking the Lord for each other.

Chris: 31:24
Yeah, it could be just sending a text of prayer. I've been thinking about you today. I'm praying for you right now. How can I be praying for you? How can I be praying for you? So, Tatum, I think your question is this it comes to the center, right? What is the word for me that's important? We all know Christ and Christ-centered is important in Christian, but the word center implies for me a target. And I need to know what is that target? What am I aiming for when I want a Christ-centered marriage? All right, well, Christ is in the center, but how does that look? What can that be? And I believe each couple is going to find that center is slightly different. Jesus is always there, God's word is always there. But sometimes that center might be where we are together doing something that hits the target more directly that we can do together than individually I could ever do alone. Identify the center, find that target, talk about it, and then go our target is reaching younger couples that are dating or engaged or are married. Our target is serving others. Take that target, make that your center, and then aim for it as a couple, which will then lead you both on this journey that is a togetherness that we call Christ-centered, even though it looks a little bit different than what another couple is. You are now hitting your target and you're doing it together. And I think that's the key.

Alisa: 32:59
And we have we actually have a spiritual intimacy assessment that Chris and I designed that uh I think we have it in a PDF form, and you can download it on our website at cmr.biola.edu. Just in the search bar put uh spiritual intimacy assessment, and it'll pop up there and it's free.

Chris: 33:20
And we answer so many other questions about marriage. But Tatum, thank you for pulling all these together. You and Rachel are awesome. Yeah, that conference, and you take these questions together and you find the good ones and the hard ones and uh the ones that we can be challenged by. So thank you. Thanks for bringing those together.

Tatum: 33:37
Yeah, and if uh you guys have any burning questions, feel free to email us at cmr at biola.edu, and maybe we'll address yours in the next episode. Thanks for joining us.

Chris: 33:48
See you next time.

Mandy: 33:52
We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on the art of relationships.