In this episode, Chris and Alisa Grace sit down with licensed professional counselor and marriage ministry leader Dr. Genee Francis to explore marital drift—the slow, often unnoticed loss of connection that can happen even in strong, committed marriages. They discuss why couples begin to feel emotionally disconnected, how communication struggles can actually point to a deeper loss of intimacy, and how different seasons of life can gradually pull spouses apart.

Dr. Francis shares practical ways couples can begin reconnecting, from remembering what first brought them together and staying curious about who their spouse is today to creating simple rhythms of connection, expressing specific gratitude, and dreaming about their future together. They also discuss the importance of Christian community, counseling as healthy marriage maintenance, and re-anchoring your marriage in shared values and your relationship with Christ. Whether you've been married for a few years or a few decades, this episode offers encouragement and tangible steps to recognize drift early, rebuild intimacy, and intentionally protect your marriage.

Resources Mentioned:

• WinShape Marriage — Marriage retreats and resources for couples in every season, from premarital relationships to empty nesting: https://marriage.winshape.org/
• The Art (and Science) of Relationships — A seven-lesson course from the Center for Marriage and Relationships exploring emotional safety, conflict, forgiveness, gratitude, technology, and practical steps for building healthier relationships: https://learn.biola.edu/courses/the-art-and-science-of-relationships
• Center for Marriage and Relationships Resources — Explore Ask the Expert content, podcast episodes, video clips, marriage mentoring resources, and more: https://cmr.biola.edu/
• More on Genee Francis: https://marriage.winshape.org/staff/genee-francis/

Connect with Us:

• Website: https://cmr.biola.edu
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/biolacmr
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/biolacmr
• YouTube: www.youtube.com/@biola-cmr

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at https://cmr.biola.edu.

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Chris: 00:00
Most couples don't wake up one day and decide to disconnect. Instead, separation, distance happens gradually through what experts call marital drift. This is the slow erosion of emotional connection, intentionality, and intimacy. Many people have heard of the seven-year age, but the reality is that marital drift can begin much earlier and affect even strong and committed couples.

Alisa: 00:26
Also, in this episode, we're going to sit down with Dr. Janae Francis. She's a licensed professional counselor and marriage ministry leader, and we're going to discuss why that marital drift happened? How can couples recognize the warning signs? And then what are some practical steps they can take to reconnect before those small gaps become major divides? So, drawing from both research and biblical wisdom, Janae offers hope that the drift is not only common, but it's preventable and it's repairable.

Mandy: 00:58
Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

Chris: 01:09
Welcome back to the Art of Relationships. Uh today we're talking about something, Lisa, that impacts nearly every marriage. And that's it, this idea of marital drift, right?

Alisa: 01:21
Yeah, you know, we we travel all over the country speaking at marriage conferences, marriage retreats, doing marriage mentoring training. And I would say one of the top um issues that couples say that they're dealing with or that they ask for help with is this idea of you know what, we're just not emotionally connected. We don't feel close anymore and we don't know what happened.

Chris: 01:44
Yeah, it's never happened to us, but we hear it's really bad. Um yeah, no, actually, we've all been there.

Alisa: 01:52
I think if you've been married more than six months or a year, you've been there.

Chris: 01:55
Yeah, you start to feel the tug and you start to feel that happening as we did in our uh fifth year of marriage when our first child was born. I think the foundation was laid. So at least we have a special guest today.

Alisa: 02:07
We sure do. So, Janae Francis, we are so excited to have you with us. And uh for our listeners, we just want to tell you a little bit about her. She has been uh working in the area of counseling, marriage, and family therapy for over 20 years, and she helps couples recognize those patterns that begin to pull them apart, that cause that drift, and then how to bring them back together. So she's worked in higher education, she's now working um with Windshape uh out there in Rome, Georgia, in uh marriage and family couples, working with tons of couples. And so we want to welcome you.

Chris: 02:46
Yeah, Janae, welcome to our podcast.

Speaker 1: 02:49
Thank you so much for having me. It is a joy to sit with you today.

Chris: 02:52
Oh, that's to have you as well with your background and expertise. We're going to enjoy learning from you. So let's let's, you know, Lisa um mentioned this idea that there's marital drift, right? And we see it. You've been married. Uh I uh how for how long now have y'all been married?

Genee: 03:11
Yeah, 18 years.

Chris: 03:12
18 years, yeah. Well, double that, and you still haven't reached us. And so our drift is probably uh as great and was at any time with it, you know, as anybody else's. So let's start, uh Janae. What what for you is one of the main uh definitions or ways that you recognize or see marital drift?

Speaker 1: 03:36
Sure, sure. If I were to define it in very simple terms, I would just call it a progressive loss of that marital connection. Uh, it is a sneaky, subtle uh situation that couples find themselves in and oftentimes not on purpose.

Chris: 03:54
Yeah. And that sneaky, subtle part really is it it either one or both all of a sudden wake up one day and go, what just happened, or what's going on?

Alisa: 04:06
I don't even know who I'm married to anymore.

Chris: 04:09
Sure. Is that is that what brings them in the door initially to you? Uh or what brings them, is it the recognition that they're not connected? Or how when do you first see this couple?

Speaker 1: 04:24
Uh-huh. Well, these couples entered therapy, and the first thing they write on their forms and the first thing they say out loud is we're having communication issues. And so normally uh communication issues is what brings them in the door. And then when you begin to know the couple, begin to know the couple and begin to kind of pull the onion back, is when you discover that really we don't have a communication problem, we got an intimacy problem.

Chris: 04:48
Ooh, so connect those for me. What's what's the connection between communication and intimacy? And and why are they saying the wrong thing to you, right? I mean, that okay, we we you know, we just don't communicate anymore. What are they actually saying?

Speaker 1: 05:05
Yeah. Well, when you think of intimacy and just that word, it's just that overall feeling, true intimacy, though, is feeling seen and really known and loved by your spouse. And so you just focused on that seen and known part. I think that's where the communication uh word comes in because all of a sudden we've stopped talking. I don't feel like I uh have current data on who you are, and so I don't feel seen, and I don't really feel like I know you anymore. So I think that's where the communication term comes, and that's how it connects back to that word intimacy.

Alisa: 05:38
And what um, Jenny, what else would be other contributing factors to that drift? What else is happening in life that would make couples feel like that?

Speaker 1: 05:49
Several things, several things can bring you to that point because again, it's not often um by intention, but I think sometimes, you know, you talk about the five-year itch or the seven-year itch, or um in in my experience and working um with couples, what I notice is most couples who come in, they're in a state of crisis, um, meaning they feel like there's no way uh that they can find uh uh happiness and wholeness together again, um, is between 18 and 21 years of marriage. And so what I think is happening, it depends on where you are in life, right? It could be the career has taken over and I'm really focused that way, or we've got these kids that we're shuffling here and there, and we're just trying to keep everybody's schedules uh in line. And so then we've kind of missed each other that way. Um, it could be really just not having any uh rhythms that we engage in on a consistent basis. So we've stopped dating, we stopped talking, uh, and we've just really focused in on other things. So I think the life stage of the couple has a lot to do with the why. Um, and there's several factors that can that can be involved there.

Chris: 06:54
Yeah, and um what what this seems to be is a breakdown in friendship. I right, I mean, what when you say the word intimacy, uh I hear um what what used to have, like like like it's like this great friendship that couples have when they're first dating, when they're engaged, when they're married, and they talk about everything. They feel seen, they feel heard, and they feel trusted, you know, and they're and trustworthy as their partner. Um is is is the breakdown of the friendship also a part of this idea of intimacy, or is it more a physical intimacy or a spiritual intimacy?

Speaker 1: 07:35
Mm-hmm. When I think of intimacy, I think of all of the areas. And you know, there's different types of intimacy, and I take, I think it takes all of them working together, really, for a couple to really thrive. And so if there's been a breakdown in any one of those areas that you named, I think it is important that friendship piece and being able to have those moments where we can have fun and we can play together. So that recreational intimacy isn't so important, but so is the physical piece, and we need to make sure we're touching daily and and um and and talking daily, but then spiritually, are we connecting that way? Are we praying and are we staying connected to God together? So all of those working together.

Chris: 08:12
That that that sounds okay. So here's a couple that is now not connecting. They show up. Uh, you you recognize it, you've seen this over and over again. It feels overwhelming. So, what's what steps? How do you rebuild connection? I mean, that's that seems like your starting place place.

Speaker 1: 08:33
Yeah, for sure. You know, for most couples, it's really kind of taking a step back and helping them to remember their why. So if we go back to the beginning of their marriage relationship or even their dating relationship, if we begin to kind of take a walk down memory lane um and we begin to remember why did why did I why did I find myself attracted to you? Why was I interested in you in the first place? And and how did we move towards marriage and what are some of the things we used to love to do together? So I think kind of storytelling and going back and revisiting some of that and then walking your way forward is really one of the first things. And I I encourage couples to do a lot of storytelling with each other, even.

Chris: 09:12
And and and that that's so powerful because it's really that narrative, that story that is what we've created together. You know, Elisa and I have this story that we're all right, uh we were individual people, we met, God brought us together, and and that development of that story was really the the beginning of the graces.

Alisa: 09:35
Yeah, I think I think that is such a powerful tool, Janae. What you're talking about rehearsing and remembering how you met. What was it I fell in love with him? What did I notice about him first?

Chris: 09:49
Yeah, and what what I find why don't you list a number of those things up right now for the all these things?

Alisa: 09:56
He was super cute, he was smart, he wasn't grassing. No, we we met around the uh dinner table at a wedding, at a wedding reception. The bride's mom set all the single people at the same dinner table, and so it was my friend Christy and me at the same table with six single Christian guys, and he was with wow, yeah. And so we only talked a few minutes, but I walked away from that just initial meeting. We talked maybe 10 minutes, but I knew exactly which one he was. I knew that he had these beautiful big brown eyes, that he was studying, getting his PhD in psychology, that he was a believer he loved the Lord, and just remembering we actually have all of our letters that we wrote back and forth to each other, and we we put them in chronological order because we were long distance until the day we got married. But what I find is so powerful that you talked about is going back and reading those letters and remembering those feelings of oh my gosh, did he really like me? Does he think okay? Is he interested in me? But when I go back and read the letters, I'm like, oh my gosh, it's so obvious. How could I even have doubted that? But it just it's like it re-ignites and flames that that fire, those embers that were there, it flames them to start burning again. That's right. Why is that? Why how does that happen? Why is that so powerful?

Speaker 1: 11:28
You know, I I believe all of that is still there, it just gets buried, buried with life and kids and logistics and career and all the things. And so I believe it's so powerful because it just uncovers it all and helps us to refocus on uh our commitment that we made together and the why behind that. Okay.

Chris: 11:49
And when you do that, what I it sounds like it's there's the flame, the ember. I mean, as you're talking, I can picture this flame that died down, but there's still coals burning and and they're very easy to re-catch. So you would say, uh, let's let's figure out how to help you to remember what it was. And the role, it seems like curiosity has gone. I mean, is that another kind of key word here?

Speaker 1: 12:20
It is a key word. It is a key word because after you begin to remember and and we start to find those feelings again, then we have to figure out how do we reconnect. And the only way we can really truly reconnect is through intentionality, right? And then also um we need to learn each other in this current season, in this current moment. And the only way to do that is to be curious, to ask questions. Um, you know, uh couples oftentimes think that if you've been married for any length of time, for some people that means three years, and for some other people that means 25, but you know, you think you know everything you need to know. And what I know for sure is we can't ever stop being curious about our spouses, we can't ever stop learning, and we can't ever stop asking questions because we're all changing and evolving all the time.

Alisa: 13:07
So yeah, well, we'll often I'd often say in our conferences that exact point that we've been married almost 30, it'll be 39 years this Saturday. Goodness, what a blessing. I think over those years I've probably been married to like four or five different Chrisses. Sure. He's not the same, and thank goodness he's not the same. I wouldn't want to be at my age married to the same 24-year-old man that I fell in love with. That how he's grown, how he's changed, his dreams have changed, his goals have changed. There's so much still left to explore with him that I think if I just sat and thought, you know, no, I already know what he's gonna say, already know what he's gonna do, it's the same story all the time, then I've left so much on the table that I could take advantage of getting to know him.

Chris: 14:00
Were you gonna say something? Well, Janae, I think the the joy, the well, the benefit I should say, of the four or five different me's is that I can always blame the earlier Mis on all of the messed up things. I'm like, Chris, Lisa, that was the earlier meme. That was number three. He forgot the anniversary.

Alisa: 14:18
I'm bad at Chris number three today.

Chris: 14:20
He forgot your birthday, and he's the one that messed up. So anyway, that's a good news thing. Yes, Janae. Let me ask you this question. When it comes to um these these practical steps, um I I would imagine another key word that you use is hope. Like they they feel so discouraged, but if for me, just as you're speaking, using that ember analogy, right? Or oh wait, I can be curious again. They feel like they've really drifted and there's no recovery, but you provide hope. What gives these couples the most sense of, you know, there's hope. What encouragement do you have for them?

Speaker 1: 15:05
Well, you know, I think especially it's it's it's much easier when we're dealing with couples who are believers, right? Um, because we all know that our hope is in Christ. And so I think if we also another exercise is when you go back to the beginning and kind of looking at those marriage vows and thinking about the commitment that you made to each other, but more importantly, the commitment that we make to the Lord. And so I think if you could get a couple to re-anchor in not only each other, but also in their why in Christ, uh, it's so important in being able to find uh a source of hope for them and giving them something and anchor that they can cling to.

Chris: 15:43
That anchor is, as you noted, uh is rooted, isn't it, in our community. I mean, right? I mean, I that there are available people in in our world simply because we know and walk and love Jesus, it automatically brings us into a family. And that family cares about marriages. And so you have, I would imagine at your access to to WindShape and to your colleagues and to your church community and their whoever they're wherever they're worshiping, or mentors that you're aware of, they play a huge role in this anchor, don't they?

Speaker 1: 16:27
Huge role. Yeah, community is everything, and I just don't believe that marriage was intended for us to walk alone. I believe that having that community of uh people to love and support and kind of walk alongside you is so important. And so, yes, I absolutely agree. Um, and I think that's part of the intentionality as you are kind of uh refueling everything, right? Is also looking at what are some rhythms that we need to put in place, you know, and so for some couples, they've gotten so far away from not only each other, but also any type of marriage community or any type of a small group or friends and having time to go out with other uh couples who are like-minded, all the things. And so being intentional to re-engage not only with each other, but how do we also plug into and find ourselves strengthened through our community?

Alisa: 17:17
Yeah, I think it is so important to not only that that community, but who's in that community that's because those are the people that are going to be speaking into your life that you're going to say, hey, we're really struggling right now, and this is not really good. What do you think I should do? Or you know, to get that kind of input. And if you have people that are not, they don't share the same values, they don't share that same anchor, then that community could really start steering you down the wrong pathway. You are absolutely so who who am I allowing to speak in to me? Who am I inviting into that sacred space and really using wisdom uh as you consider that? Who because that it really is a sacred space.

Chris: 18:12
Janae, you um you you no doubt uh went into this profession and this field because you recognized, wow, okay, I have some gifts, and I I can see through some of the issues that these couples struggle with. Um tell me about when you approach your counseling and your time, um, how does a Christian counselor differ than come on, there's somebody else that's trained. There, they went to Oklahoma, they're a sooner, or this guy went to your favorite school, I'm sure, UT. And uh and and and they should they should be good. I know they're not believers, but what's the difference and why would you point a couple to to someone that's a believer?

Speaker 1: 19:02
Yeah. Well, I think first of all, uh really uh having a couple really search themselves for what their goals are in therapy. Um and then also who who are they as individuals, who are they as a couple? Um, and so I think the benefit is again, sometimes in relationships, again, couples come in in crisis and they are hopeless. So one of the first things I feel like as a therapist, oftentimes all I'm doing really is being a source of that hope and holding it for them until they're able to grab it on their own. And so it's it's one of those things where, you know, again, to your point, Alistair, you don't want just anybody right walking with you through your marriage stuff. You know, it is a sacred, beautiful covenant relationship. And so I think the benefit is um sitting with someone who um loves the Lord and can meet you where you are and can hold you and hold the things um concerning your marriage um in a safe and beautiful way until you're able to grab it on your own.

Alisa: 20:07
So, why do relationships matter so much? And why do they feel sometimes so hard to do?

Chris: 20:12
Yeah, that's at least what I've tried to unpack in the art and science of relationships. It's a seven-lesson course where biblical wisdom meets research-backed insights.

Alisa: 20:23
Yeah, you dive into topics like emotional safety, conflict, forgiveness, gratitude, even how technology is shaping your connection.

Chris: 20:32
Yeah, and this isn't just theory, it's really reflection questions and even a lot of practical steps that people can put into practice right away.

Alisa: 20:39
Because research shows that small changes in how we communicate, how we connect can have a huge impact.

Chris: 20:47
Yeah, so if you want to make your relationships truly thought thrive, this course will help you get there and check out the details in the show notes. There are there are some couples that it's clear. Um, maybe you know it from church, they they need counseling, but they hesitate because they're not quite sure. Oh, I don't know if it's that bad, or or well, how do you see the difference between and how do you share when a a couple, yeah, they can work this out. There must be a difference in levels, right? Of issues.

Alisa: 21:23
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Where you could just get you could really benefit from a marriage mentoring couple in situation versus no, we need to go in for some good, solid Christian therapy from a well-trained uh professional. How do you how do you know which you're using?

Speaker 1: 21:41
You know, it's interesting. This comes up often, um, especially with marriage mentors and some of my friends who do more coaching, marriage coaching. And I think that a couple of things we have to normalize this idea that therapy is not just for when you're in crisis and when you're going through a problem. And so I think normalizing that. It's just a healthy practice. It's a healthy rhythm. And so I think if couples could get used to just having maintenance care around their marriages, then it takes some of that stigma away that something must be wrong. I would say just normalizing and helping people to just understand the benefit of regular maintenance of therapy. That way you don't have to see it as my last resort. Because honestly, if there's regular maintenance care, you may not get to that point of last resort. And so I think that's an important piece of the conversation.

Chris: 22:32
Oh, that's great. So so far we have that this opportunity of hope, it's it's hope in talking with others, especially those in community. It's helpful when we're and you you you started this whole idea of helping couples that are in this drift, this isolation drift, to begin to be curious about each other, right? To go back and reflect and renew and and kind of fan the flames of what they did. Are there tools or or certain questions that you might give them or exercises during any one of these? Like, hey, I want you to go back and just dream together and write them down, or what do you do that's a great little practical tool?

Speaker 1: 23:22
Well, the dream um together is an absolute tool that I use. But what I would say, even before that, um, is you want after you've gone through and you've reflected and you have uh really kind of looked at the relationship and we've remembered, I think it's also important to figure out how we can reconnect in this current season we're in. And so you want to start putting some things in place almost immediately that brings them back to this place of talking and touching and spending time together, even if it's five minutes a day, right? You can't, you just start and work with what you have. And so I think in the reconnection piece, one of the exercises I recommend couples to do is oftentimes, again, you're weighed down by life and stuff. And so what's on your plate exercise is an excellent way to kind of literally sit together with your spouse and take a paper plate and write everything you got going on on this plate and everything you can think of from a meeting, um, the work, kids, their practices, all the things. Write it all out and then figure out from there what do we have to keep and where might we find a little margin. And again, margin could look like five minutes, but you just want to get them thinking about and figuring out how to tangibly create a new rhythm that is focused solely on that marriage relationship because that reconnection is so key right here at this point um in the process.

Chris: 24:46
Oh, I love that.

Alisa: 24:47
Well, yeah, using that that phrase you just said, Janae, the rhythms of connection. What are what are some common rhythms that couples could begin to incorporate to make that space and to find that those points uh of reconnection? What are what are those rhythms that you would recommend?

Speaker 1: 25:07
Sure, sure. So you may have couples who have the availability to get up every morning and share a cup of coffee. Um, you may be in a season where we we're working from home and so both of us are able to take a 20-minute walk um during the lunch hour together. Um, it may be a situation where we don't really see each other until the nighttime. And so being able to come together and connect over prayer. Um, and so it can be very simple. It doesn't have to cost any money, it could be very practical because oftentimes when we think about reconnecting with our spouse, we go back in our minds to our dating season for most of us that's no children. And so then you've got time and you got resources. So we're always out and about doing fun things. And so couples sometimes get stuck in the fact that we don't have time for a date night, but there are ways that you can reconnect that are uh that are easy and accessible and right there at your fingertips. We just don't think about those things when we think of connecting and dating our spouse.

Chris: 26:03
Man, I that's that's such good advice, Janae. I think one of the benefits we had was a combination of all of these, right? We had young children, we had a great community, and we had friends that had young children. And we just realized, hey, wait a minute, we're gonna drop our kids off at your house for Friday night. You drop your kids at our house on a Saturday night. It didn't cost anything.

Alisa: 26:28
Thank you, Dan and Lori Ann Bach. Yeah, they saved our bacon.

Chris: 26:32
And you know, I think what what's the beauty of of what you're talking about, Janae, is it is not difficult. Uh it it it really is recapturing that moment that is uh thought of as maybe wasted, or I'm having a cup of coffee, like you said, even a 10-minute check-in, right? Right, and and it doesn't take much to all of a sudden start kind of seeing that little flame pop up again. Like that's a uh you know what? That was a great five-minute conversation we had at break. And uh I think uh Janae, that's probably the secret to to a lot of this when it comes to the seven-year itch or whatever that itch is today. Two to three-year itch. Yeah, that we're finding it's even earlier like you have. It really is small, simple changes that we have within our power to do. What role does gratitude play in some of this as well?

Speaker 1: 27:33
It's everything, and and not to pick on um men, but I think one of the things that, you know, our our husbands, I don't know, at least mine can be very complimentary and just naturally. Um, but I think one of the things I had to learn is the power of being able to affirm and and show gratitude towards him and being able to give that back. And so I think um gratitude is everything and creating a culture of that, and not just in your marriage, but also with your children, um, you cannot uh yeah, you can't even put a price on how valuable that is.

Chris: 28:09
You know, Elisa uh and I uh loved the like you, the power of gratitude. And we're not you're right, there are some things that really are powerful to me, like when Elisa, you know, says, Oh, Chris, you know, you did that great or good job. But what really changed was when she started to get fairly specific about her gratitude, and I mean, like, oh, Chris, you're a thank you for being a good husband. Well, all right, that's good. Oh, you're a great dad. All right, I I that's great. I hope so. But when she would say, when you took Natalie and you took her out to dinner on a date night, it made me feel so blessed to have a father like you in our kids' lives. And I'll tell you what, that really meant a lot. There's some specifics in gratitude, like you just said, men, we we do sometimes need some affirming, don't we?

Speaker 1: 29:11
Absolutely, and specific is exactly where it's at, you know, because I think general gratitude is great, but it could feel very much general, right? And so you can kind of overlook some of that, or it can all begin to kind of sound the same. But when you start naming those things and getting real specific, it is special across the board. Yeah. So I love that you highlighted that.

Alisa: 29:33
I think one of the keys to that, because I I normally wouldn't uh be very thoughtful about that, kind of like you, Janae, that it's just not the first thing that comes to mind. So when we were learning about how powerful gratitude is, specifically in a marriage, but it's transferable to any relationship, right? But specifically for marriage, um, one of the things that I started doing was actually throughout the day writing things down. Because I noticed that even just the smallest thing um was easy to take in and then overlook and not recognize that, hey, you know, not only do Amy Gordon, Dr. Amy Gordon said this that uh gratitude involves not only being grateful that my husband takes out the trash, but that I have the kind of husband that knows I hate taking out the trash. And so he takes it out. And just that little subtle shift or differentiation that she made in the way she worded that was that, but that I have the kind of spouse that that would be important to. So for me personally, it was it was very helpful to jot things down throughout the day. And then at the end of the night, when we come together, turn our computers off, put the cell phones away, uh, you know, we're getting in bed together, we kind of debrief throughout the day, but that's the time to be able to affirm specifically. Thank you for you know picking up the things at the grocery store that I just didn't have time to do. And the fact that you're the kind of husband that would notice that I didn't have time to do it, and and you took that on. I really appreciate that. Thank you for noticing. Riza is you that made all the difference in the world for at least for my the way I'm wired. And I figure I can't be the only one out there that's that's not hired.

Speaker 1: 31:31
That's an awesome tool, another tool, right? Um, that is so beneficial. And what that does is not only does it make both people feel seen, right? And known, but it also begins to open up um just this vulnerability that's necessary in a relationship. And so then if we learn how to have these vulnerable moments of sharing and expressing gratitude, it makes difficult conversations that much more uh easy. So and it now I shouldn't use the word easy because it might not ever be eating for some people, but it makes it a more comfortable space. Can we get used to flowing in that vulnerable space for something that's positive and lovely? And then when something's a little bit more challenging, we can kind of use some of that same energy towards it. So I love that well, Janae.

Chris: 32:17
What I love is that um the I you can tell the type of therapist you are is going to be one that I would imagine a lot of people gravitate toward because you're not going into, you know, well, when you are four, there's a place for that. What happens when they were four? And there's a good place to talk about that. But for couples that are uh drifting and have drifted, there are some corrections, even small five-minute ones, that make huge impacts, and all of a sudden can get this ship turned. I mean, it's just a tiny little rudder back there, right? But it's turning a big old ship. When you look at if you become a dream detector and you list your gratitude, and when you do the things that you said connect with somebody so well, um, what what what else would be on your heart if you uh had to say, you know, there's one other thing, or in some, what's kind of like that one thing, like, man, I wished couples or here's what I often tell tell the majority of our couples or whatever.

Speaker 1: 33:33
Yeah. So if there's one more thing I'd mention is the importance of once that ship starts turning and we've been able to reconnect and refuel and feel a little something for each other, right? And so one of the things is we want to, I think you mentioned it earlier, is we want to be able to dream together. And so I think it's important for couples um to re-anchor themselves and share values or either a vision. And so I would do probably both exercises, um, but I think it's so important um for couples to at least begin to talk about, like, who are we? You know, and how do we want um people to talk about us in 30 years? And what kind of legacy would we want our marriage to leave for anyone who's looking? And so having some of those kind of conversations and really figuring out like, what are some words and some core values that we can assign? And you can use those words to really anchor yourself so that you can you can be reminded, right, of who we are and how we're gonna posture ourselves. And I think it's so important because it kind of brings that marriage relationship back front and center and then gives you something to connect on um along the way.

Chris: 34:46
Man, it's almost like identifying the one thing that maybe God has called you to to do together better than you could do alone. And that's what you're saying, right? That you gotta these couples can do something better together than they can ever do alone. And you what your encouragement is find that or go search for that. Maybe it's serving in a in a kitchen, you know, uh for the homeless. Maybe it's fostering.

Alisa: 35:17
Maybe it's fostering, maybe it's leading a Bible study, maybe it's right, yeah, coaching little league and and being the team mom, but you do it together in a as a means of lifestyle evangelism.

Chris: 35:30
Well, it sounds like that will have a huge impact for some of these couples to recapture and start on that road to intimacy again, right? When you figure out who are we and what are we doing and what can we do well together.

Alisa: 35:43
Yeah. That's right. That's all right. I think you know, on a on another note, the reason this is such an important topic, and Janae Chris, maybe y'all can speak into this, um, is I think about the impact that it, if you have children, the impact that it has on your kids. When you have two parents that you see actively investing in their marriage, those kids are listening to how you treat each other, how you speak to each other when you're upset in the middle of conflict, when there's a disagreement, how you respond to each other. And then just those daily habits, uh, those rhythms that you were talking about, Janae. I think I think back to um, we have three kids. And uh, and one of the things that that I will often do for Chris, and that he does for me too, is that write leaving little love notes around the house, like on the bathroom mirror, on the refrigerator, on top of his uh backpack where he's gonna find it, in the car, something like that. But they're in places that our kids are gonna see them too. And I remember uh I don't know, this might have been a few years ago because our middle daughter was still at home. But she found my note to Chris. It was the first day of school, again, you know, in the high we're in higher education, so we've had multiple decades of first days of school. But I left him a little note that just said, you know, I hope you have a wonderful first day of school. Go get them. I love you, and put a heart and signed it. And the next thing I knew, our daughter had taken a picture of that, posted it on her Instagram, and just wrote hashtag goals. I love that. I mean, that's not why we left them out, but that was a beautiful natural consequence that just built up that told our kids we love each other and we are staying together. And that kind of stability. Can can you just briefly touch on that as we're wrapping up the importance of that and with children?

Speaker 1: 37:51
Absolutely, absolutely. I think that is so beautiful, and what a better gift, what a better legacy to leave our children than to model just the beautiful intention of marriage when it was designed by our God. And so I think that that is a beautiful, beautiful practice. Um, I think it's important because I, you know, marriage is one of those things where I believe healthy marriages is really part of the solution to a lot of what's going on in our world. Um, and so I think our healthy marriages create these healthy families, and these healthy families is what creates a healthy community. And those healthy communities is what's gonna be the change that this world needs. And so I believe that those little things that we do on a day-to-day basis to bless our spouses, um, it's gonna trickle into the type of people and humans that we're raising in our homes. And so, yeah, and that would be my encouragement.

Alisa: 38:45
Yeah, isn't it was it Brene Brown that says, be be who you want your children to become? That's I powerful.

Chris: 38:53
Yeah, that is well, uh I think you know, Janae, we uh marriage drift and isolation doesn't have to happen. Um, it can be prevented, but when it does, um the sh words you shared and the ministry you have there in your community, I I know is touching a lot of other places just because uh of what you said. A healthy marriage leads to this, right? Healthy family and healthy families impact communities in a healthy way. And so for that, uh, we're just so grateful to be able to talk with you about that and know that there are like hearts, whether they're in Los Angeles, right, you know, Atlanta, or anywhere else, even in the world, that this can be done. This is a hopeful thing when couples find themselves struggling and uh with with drifting apart, we can change that drift. Thank you for your role in helping these couples make those changes. Uh, I'm sure it just brings you joy knowing you're doing what the Lord has called you to do.

Speaker 1: 40:10
Absolutely, absolutely, and thank you all for just providing a beautiful space for this conversation.

Alisa: 40:15
Yeah, and Janae, if people wanted to get more information about you, about your ministry, your resources, where should they go?

Speaker 1: 40:23
Yeah, windshape.org. Um, I'm currently serving with Windshape with our uh Windshape Marriage Ministry, and so windshaped marriage.org will have lots of uh resources available. We host marriage retreats um from uh from January until August. So all year almost minus the summer months of June and July when we're in camp season. And so we've got uh marriage retreats for all seasons of marriage, whether you're in the premarital space, if you are um drifting in your marriage, or if you're uh empty nester, we've got something and a retreat for everybody.

Chris: 41:00
And so uh look us up, and Brian, and uh I would encourage not only to look you guys up, but to recognize this could be a destination place. I mean, your campus is beautiful, so they may not realize that. You know, if they're thinking, oh, where's the destination? It's got to be by an ocean, but you guys have a campus that's beautiful.

Alisa: 41:23
And it's it feels like you're in a in a province of France out there. It's very French provincial, it's beautiful, wonderful gourmet food, beautiful accommodations, and just top-notch uh resources and speakers. The uh the times that we have been there, we've loved it. So thank you for that.

Chris: 41:43
Well, Dr. Janae Francis, thank you so much for joining us here. And you know how to get a hold of you now, and um you can get a hold of us also at yeah at uh cmr.biola.edu.

Alisa: 41:59
We have a ton of resources, AskTheExpert podcast, video clips, and even resources for marriage mentors, our own curriculum that uh we've developed. So we want to invite you to check out our website and thank you for joining us today on the Art of Relationships.

Chris: 42:16
Yeah, and as we leave, we're just going to say we're going to have a new link and connection uh for Dr. Janae, uh for anybody that's out in your area or or even can do this by Zoom or whatever. Thank you for joining us on this podcast. You're awesome.

Speaker 1: 42:34
Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye-bye.

Mandy: 42:38
We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.viola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationships.