In this episode, Chris and Alisa Grace sit down with marriage coaches, speakers, and authors Tony and Lymari Navarro to hear the first part of their powerful story of betrayal, broken trust, and the beginning of restoration. Tony and Lymari share how their relationship began, their journey to faith, and the challenges they faced as young believers trying to build a marriage without healthy models or examples.

As their family grew, unresolved wounds, unhealthy communication patterns, and emotional distance created cracks beneath the surface of their marriage. When Lymari received a phone call revealing Tony's infidelity, everything came crashing down. Together, they candidly discuss the devastating impact of betrayal, the role of wise counsel during a crisis, the tension between justice and grace, and how God met them in the midst of their deepest pain.

Whether you're walking through betrayal, supporting someone who is, or simply seeking to build a stronger marriage, this episode offers honest encouragement and biblical wisdom about forgiveness, grace, and the first steps toward healing.

Resources Mentioned:

From Ruin to Renewal – Tony and Lymari Navarro's story of rebuilding their marriage after infidelity and discovering God's power to restore what was broken.
https://shop.familylife.com/product/from-ruin-to-renewal/

Home with the Navarros – Marriage resources, coaching, speaking information, and encouragement from Tony and Lymari Navarro.
https://www.tonyandlymarinavarro.com/

Tony & Lymari Navarro on Instagram – Follow their ongoing ministry, marriage encouragement, and family life content.
https://www.instagram.com/tonyandlymarinavarro

Connect with Us:

Website: cmr.biola.edu
Facebook: facebook.com/biolacmr
Instagram: instagram.com/biolacmr
YouTube: www.youtube.com/@biola-cmr

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About the Hosts:

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more about their work at cmr.biola.edu.

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Alisa: 00:00
You know, trust is both foundational and fragile in a marriage. And when it's broken, that path forward can really feel overwhelming and uncertain. So in this episode, we are joined by our good friends Tony and Lamari Navarro. They're marriage coaches, speakers, and authors of the book From Ruin to Renewal. And they are they're going to share their personal story of betrayal and healing and their subsequent restoration. So with honesty and hope, they are going to unpack what it really takes to rebuild after trust is shattered. So from navigating the messy middle to embracing the cost of forgiveness, they're going to offer a process that's both spiritually grounded and really practical. So we're going to explore the honesty, daily habits, healthy boundaries, and even dependence on God that can really help couples rebuild. Not by returning to what used to be or what was, but by creating something brand new. And so this episode is for anyone who's walking through betrayal, supporting someone who is, or maybe you're just desiring a marriage marked by truth, grace, and lasting restoration. So stay tuned. This episode is for you.

Mandy: 01:13
Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

Chris: 01:23
Hey, welcome to another Art of Relationships podcast. Lisa, it's so fun to be able to do this with you on a regular basis.

Alisa: 01:30
Yeah, we're coming off a busy weekend.

Chris: 01:32
Yeah.

Alisa: 01:33
Yeah. We did a conference this weekend right here on Biola's campus for people who are seriously dating, engaged, and married.

Chris: 01:42
Yeah, and other conferences upcoming. Check our schedule for that, right? Yeah, we're gonna be everywhere. Let's start with maybe some listener questions. You know, one that I get all the time is how do you, uh Chris and Elisa, stay so hot looking and relevant? And I know you guys are 39, but it it what what to what do you attribute all of your, you know, and I'm like we get that often. Oh no, just stop writing. It's it's getting old. Okay, let's go to another listener question. Can you have Tony and Lamari on your podcast? And the answer, the Navarroos are definitely going to be our podcast. Alisa, you've already pre-introduced the Navarroos. We have the had the opportunity to hang out and speak with them in a variety of things.

Alisa: 02:31
Yeah, they're on the speaker team with us for Family Life, uh, speaking at the weekend to remember that's where we met them. And we've had the honor of speaking with them a couple of times now. So they're in town.

Chris: 02:42
Welcome and we got here. The Navarroos, man. Welcome to our podcast, this humble abode. Thank you so much for having us. The CMR, man. So, hey, thanks for showing up. Thanks for being here. It's fun to speak with you guys. I see Tony. I don't know why you guys make me laugh. Mostly because it's fun when we're up there together, huh?

Speaker 7: 03:03
It is.

Chris: 03:04
It's like, I don't know, but that that half of me that's got a little bit of you guys in, you know, the Puerto Rican. It comes out, man.

Speaker 1: 03:13
I got it close on and I got rid of them. I got funny, I got high.

Alisa: 03:21
Oh, I got something, man. You gotta get that Puerto Rican hair. The curls.

Chris: 03:28
So you guys are speaking at an upcoming conference. You guys, I'm sure, like us, love doing it. It's just a fun fun weekend.

Speaker 5: 03:36
Yeah, it's so great. Um, we're excited. And we're like I said, we love California, and the people here are just so warm, so it's always great to be here.

Chris: 03:45
Because you guys reside and travel from where to get here?

Speaker 3: 03:49
Right now, Indiana. Indiana, so it's the big wet the Midwest. And uh it's about a six-hour flight, right? If you do it one, and then the time change. So last night we were here. Or two hours, it's about three hours.

Alisa: 04:02
That makes a difference, doesn't it? You're gonna be sacked out at six p.m.

Speaker 3: 04:06
I'm waking up at three, waking up at like 3 a.m. in the morning. Like, why isn't anything open? You know like what's going on here.

Speaker 5: 04:14
And I feel refreshed. Oh my god.

Chris: 04:17
I don't know if LA ever closes, but the places that are open at three or four, I don't think I would go there. I'm just gonna give you a little bit of California insight. Avoid 4 a.m. openings. Hey, uh, tell us about your story and your journey, you guys. Um, we will be at even as we began, tell us a little bit about how you guys again, your journey together as a couple. Yeah, it's so cool to hear your story.

Speaker 5: 04:45
Well, do you want to start? Okay. Well, we met in the neighborhood um in Chicago where we were born and raised. Um, eventually we moved to Bloomington, but that's where we have our roots, Chicago, and so that's where we met. We lived two blocks from each other, had similar friends, um, and and then we eventually started dating, and that was fun and turbulent all at the same time. How old were you?

Speaker 3: 05:14
Oh, you were young. I think it started about 16 years old.

Speaker 5: 05:17
Well, I had a crush on him at 14.

unknown: 05:20
Okay.

Speaker 5: 05:21
And we started dating at 16.

Chris: 05:23
So it took you that long to convince him. Yeah, brother.

Speaker 3: 05:26
Well, my brother stared at he was one of the guys in the in the so we call ourselves Hood Hearts. Um, obviously, this is all before us, um, before Jesus the BC days. And so growing up in the neighborhood was kind of like, I like that girl or she likes that guy, and it was let's connect. Um, but her brother was uh a friend of mine and would always say, anybody touch my sister, you're gonna kill you. Yeah, you're dead. And so she made the first move, you know. She wasn't scared of her brother. So I just kind of followed along with that.

Speaker 4: 05:59
I was a little rebellious. What was your first move, Lamardi? Oh goodness.

Speaker 3: 06:04
We're sure he's not there.

Speaker 4: 06:07
We were we were at a house party and daytime. At daytime party at the daytime, and I I pinned him in the boiler room and kissed him.

Chris: 06:22
I I'd really I mean you're just you just don't come across that way, so you have matured and grown.

Speaker 7: 06:30
I have changed.

Chris: 06:32
Yeah, we'll talk about sex and initiating and marriage later, but wow, way to go. I'm I have a new appreciation for you. So then you guys are gonna get you guys are you you guys both I know turn you turn red. You both grew up Puerto Rican neighborhood, the hood, as you called it, and then um, and then God, you know, brought you guys together. And uh tell us a little bit about how that all kind of transpired.

Speaker 3: 06:58
Yeah. So at the time, uh we were living together. Uh we had the mighty already had a son prior to another relationship. Um, and then we she was pregnant with our with my son. And so we were living together, kind of playing church, playing a plain house, plain house, right? And she started to visit a small church in our community. Uh, was invited because they were celebrating Mother's Day, and one of her cousins told her to uh come out and we're gonna do something for your mom. So uh honoring the mom is big. So they she went and uh but then she started to uh keep going. Wow. She kept going. She brought a Bible to the to the apartment, and I'm like, okay, and then she's reading the Bible. Um I caught her sometimes praying, and uh, but there was something in me that was like, okay, I'm glad that's something she's doing, but as long as it doesn't interfere with what I'm doing, it's okay. Like it's like if that's good for her, then that's fine. So I didn't have any intentions to to go to church to serve the Lord, to follow God. So I was doing my own thing. And so at that time, uh, she was praying for me. Church is praying for me, and she came home and said, Listen, uh, we gotta stop having sex because under the under under God's eyes, this is wrong.

Chris: 08:16
And you said, Oh yeah, that's great. I believe that.

Speaker 3: 08:19
Exactly. It was the total opposite. I was like, I don't believe that. Where do you hear that from? That's crazy. And so I thought like we were good, and so she was saying things like, I'm the daughter of the king, I deserve better, all this. You put her foot down, and so I I think the next Sunday I was like, Okay, let's go to church. Um, I want to go to church and see what this is all about. Although in my head, I was already thinking, I just want to talk to whoever this guy is that's poisoning my girlfriend, right? And telling her all this silly stuff about not having sex uh before marriage. And so uh that morning I went with her, and uh, I know she must have said something because there was kind of like looks going on, and she was like telling me to come sit in the front. I I mean I walked into a church, I didn't want anybody to touch me. He grabbed my hand, uh give me a hug, and I wanted to sit in the back, and she's like, Come sit all the way in the front. And so we sit in the front, and I'm reluctantly there, and I think for the first time, I can honestly say I heard the gospel for the first time, and so although um it wasn't a surrender that Sunday, I just remember that I was fighting myself, I was angry that something I was getting emotional, and I wasn't the emotional kind of guy. And so uh met the pastor afterward, allowed him to give me this hug. I was kind of awkward, I was just like kind of stiff while he's giving me this hug and uh you know welcoming me. And so I don't know there wasn't necessarily a change, but I know something changed in me in that time, and I was more open to okay, maybe there's something here, maybe there's something I need to like pursue a little more. Um, because whatever is happening with her, there's obviously fruit that I'm seeing in that, right? I'm using that language now, but she was changing, she really was changing, and so uh it took about more like six more months after that uh stubborn, but I came to a full surrender. Surrender does we were uh 20 years old, or 21 years, yeah, about 21 years old. And so when that happened though, uh after I was like, okay, I'm done, I'm done trying to do this on my own. Um, Lord, I I do need you, and and I had that full surrender. It was about three months afterward that we got married. Yeah, and it was because we were living in con out of conviction and saying, Listen, I want to want to do what's right. And uh the church married us, and it wasn't a big wedding, it was just an act of obedience. They did the announcements, and like don't forget to come next week. And by the way, the mighty Antonio giddy married, and so they played the music and were marching down there. Uh, she had her dress, I had a suit.

Alisa: 10:57
Right in the middle of the service, right?

Speaker 3: 10:58
Right at the end of the service after the set. And it's a small, it's a small church that you know was uh starting to. I mean, God was moving so tremendously. I mean, there was like so many gangbangers of people that were just getting saved, and so people are just coming. And so afterward, when you hear free food, there's a wedding. It was like they put a potluck together and uh we celebrated. We put uh uh a slow dance tape together. You know, remember the tape? So somebody says, Hey, I'll make the mixtape. Somebody's like, okay, our cousins, I'll make the mixtape. They put a little tiny up with a little and we're just having like little, you know, slow dancing downstairs in in the uh the church fellowship hall. But uh, but that was our story, and then since then it's 29 years. It's amazing.

Speaker 5: 11:39
29 years coming up 29 years, isn't it? This weekend, you're out of here. On the 27th of April, we'll celebrate 29 years.

Alisa: 11:47
Congratulations. And how many kids do you guys have?

Speaker 5: 11:50
Five adult children and three grandchildren. Just recently added a third, and she's amazing, so it's been great.

Chris: 11:59
It's this big transition to go from loving kids to all of a sudden finding pure joy in the grandkids.

Speaker 7: 12:07
And the grandchildren are amazing. Yeah.

Chris: 12:11
Okay, so you started then this journey walking with Christ without much of a background. Where where did you guys learn to walk with him? I mean, that had to have been a discipling moment. It I mean, to come to Christ is one thing, but you must have had somebody, the church around you that helped you walk and grow.

Speaker 5: 12:31
Well, for me, I I would say I had a radical transformation um with the Lord. I immediately knew it was everything I had been looking for. I always had this longing and searching in my heart, and so I was very hungry. And so I started asking women to walk with me. And I started meeting with women. Um, I was hungry for the Bible. I would um I would be at church anticipating going home so I can crack open my Bible, and so I just had an insatiable hunger to know Jesus, and so I went through like just started reading, and mind you, I I never was a reader in school. I did not enjoy school, and then I became a lifelong learner and constantly just reading, um, asking people questions and not knowing what discipleship was at the time. And I think our church was a young church, didn't know what they were doing. There, a lot of people were coming to know Jesus. I just knew there was women that I was watching that had something that I wanted, and so I kind of got underneath like I I was like, Hey, what are you doing? Can I come hang out with you? And there was a particular family um that walked with me um and us, and it was the first time I saw a family praying together. Um, I would see my cousins, I had a lot of cousins that were going to the church, I would hear them praying out loud, and I was like, I want that. And so a lot of what I did was I would go home and I just learned how to pray to the Lord. I didn't know how to pray, I just knew I wanted to talk to God, and then women just started teaching me. That was for me how God changed me and discipled me.

Chris: 14:21
Yeah, you know, I I I love that story, uh Lamari. It's very similar to you know, my coming to Jesus, you know, I same thing, no background, I don't know him, I'm in college, nobody prayed, you know. If they used God or Jesus' name, it was in a cuss word, you know.

Speaker 4: 14:37
Right.

Chris: 14:38
And all of a sudden, uh, you know, it's left upon the you, me, to kind of start looking out or finding somebody. Luckily, uh, the guy I was led to Christ by was a disciple maker, right? And so I but but I watched his family and I you all of a sudden go, there's something there. I guess what I'm saying too, shout out to all the couples in churches that see and look for that young person, that young couple, and have a heart for them and go, gosh, there are Lamaris and Tony's and Chris's and Elise's all over the church. Go do something, find them and reach out.

Alisa: 15:20
And you never know who's watching. Yeah. You know, the similar my my parents stayed together until I was married, but they didn't have a a good marriage. Yeah. And I didn't really realize that until Chris and I got married. And I was I realized, oh wow, he wants to spend time, he wants to watch TV together, not in separate. I just the it really began to dawn on me that what I grew up with was not healthy and wasn't what would be normal in a normal, healthy marriage. And it was uh it was another couple or two that worked with our college group that I watched them exactly what you said, Lamardi. I watched them and I thought that's what I want. Look how he talks to her, look how she serves and takes care of him, and look how he serves and takes care of her, look how they do that with their children. That's what I want. And it and it gave me hope that that was out there. Yeah.

Speaker 5: 16:19
So before um podcasts and everything, there was radio. And I would tune into Moody Bible Institute or Moody Radio, and I would listen to things, then I would hear them talk about a book, and I'm like, well, I'm gonna go get that book, and I'll just start reading it. And so that's kind of how I got um like discipled for me personally, yeah.

Chris: 16:42
And Tony, for you, it was probably following her your wife, trying to keep up, but you guys also had a bunch of friends that you had to and family that you had to go, whoa, we gotta find almost a new family for models. You know, we can't use what we had.

Speaker 3: 16:58
That's tough, especially in uh the Latino culture where family is like everything. And so um, for me, it was even when we were go we were invited to have dinner, and we can bring our kids. That was another one, right? We could bring our kids. Um, I was blown away. I was just observed saying, Okay, we're all sitting at the table. Nobody's like grabbing the food right away. They're like waiting, father's sitting at the front of the table, and everyone's praying and giving thanks to the Lord for their food. And I was just, I mean, it was just so awkward. I didn't know what to do. Like, we're grabbing hands, and like, what do you say? And uh that's in your kids' hands from grabbing or it was like I said, man, I want this. This is like amazing. Um, what do I need to do to have something like this? And so just re-looking at not only marriage, but like the whole family, because we were we were a family already. Um so we were looking at it at all different angles. Um, like what's what's next for us? And at the time, like there were so many layers to the transformative work that God was doing. Um, I mean, I was working different types of jobs, but then I was doing a lot of illegal things. I never disclosed to Lamani that I was deeply in drugs when we were uh together in after marriage. It was like that with the process went away. But the whole thought of that, and then now the men in my life telling me you have to go be like a real nine to five job, like you have to provide for your family, and so doing that was difficult. And so I ended up going back to trade school and working and and trying to be involved, and so I was I felt like I was behind, but I was actually just doing the work needed to get me to a place where I felt like we needed to be. But uh, but yeah, so it was it was holistically everything was being turned around for us.

Chris: 18:45
Isn't it amazing too God's work? He pursues us, grace pursues us. It's not anything I don't know, it's not anything I did or the you know, my actions or behaviors before I met him, and I can tell it wasn't you guys being oh, it was his work. Yet you had to respond, you had to go, I'm gonna do this, and those two come together. God pursues you, and you go, Okay, I'm gonna follow. It's powerful the transform. I imagine your friends and family were like, What has happened to this? Tony and Lamari.

Speaker 5: 19:19
Oh, yeah. Well, we we began to, you know, um see our friends and family really get challenged by the change. And um, there were a lot of people who were coming to the Lord as a result of what God was doing in our lives and being able to, and we didn't know how to disciple, yeah, but we just started slapping it up and telling people, well, this is what the Bible says, this is what Jesus says. Yeah, I think you should stop doing drugs, throw that away and come to church with us. And so definitely God was doing something remarkable, and um, we also got a lot of people in our lives who were upset by the change. There's a lot of kind of and um I had friends who I lost, and I remember there were times even I had a friend at the time who did not show up to our wedding. She didn't want anything to do with me because I was a little I was fanatic now, right? I was a fanatic, and um, but God showed me the things that I lost, He would replace, and He replaced it with so many people who came around us and loved us so well in that season. So, yeah.

Chris: 20:31
Have you ever felt that sometimes in marriage, like everything starts to pull you apart, and it's just not a coincidence, right?

Alisa: 20:39
Yeah, that you know the Bible reminds us that we have a very real enemy who's been trying to divide couples since the Garden of Eden.

Chris: 20:47
At least I think it's why, and one of the things that led us to creating the Going Deeper Together, Spiritual Armour Required. It's a five-lesson course that equips couples to recognize the enemy's tactics and help you stand strong together.

Alisa: 21:01
And you'll discover the number one way the enemy gains an advantage and how to counter it with really practical biblical tools.

Speaker 1: 21:09
Isn't it true, Lisa? It's the your spouse isn't the enemy, is the enemy that's the enemy.

Alisa: 21:16
And if you want to protect and strengthen your marriage, this course is for you. So you'll find all the details in the show notes. So check it out. So it's such a sweet time in life, where it sounds like for y'all were reconnecting, y'all were newly married, new believers, your family is growing. And so, at what point, at what point did the wheel start to come off the bus, so to speak, that that you talk about in your book, From Ruin to Renewal. Yeah, and what's the story?

Chris: 21:52
And while we have that here, look at you, check it out, man. Tony and Lamar Navarro from Ruin to Renewal. Man, you can get this is published through Family Life, which is where we we all speak. And I know I'm probably a big inspiration in your guys' renewal. I didn't see my name in there, but it's time to clarify that now on the podcast. Go ahead and do it. But anyway, hey, Lisa, good question.

Alisa: 22:16
Yeah, just share the story, your your story.

unknown: 22:19
Okay.

Alisa: 22:19
Yeah, how it unfolded.

Speaker 5: 22:20
Yeah. Yeah. I said even just the picture on the um front of the cover just shows like this house that's broken, and then you just see it just growing into this bloom. So from the beginning, our we had brought in a lot of um just baggage, a lot of ways that we communicated. So although we knew Jesus, both of us are now new believers, I had a lot of we had a lot of stuff that we were bringing into our marriage that there was a lot of arguments, there was a lot of things happening behind closed doors that God was still doing. Um, and so we would fight like our fights would go from zero to a hundred, screaming matches, there was a lot of disrespect. I I am ashamed to say I would put my hands on him because I was very my mom was that away. And so I just was my reaction was anger. And so while God was still doing a work in me, we were having these moments of up and down. Um, so three years into our marriage, we're, you know, we're we're still, you know, we also don't know how to do marriage, guys. Like we're just like, how do you do this thing? Like, how do you communicate? How do you love this person? What is this thing that we entered into? Like you, I didn't have examples, he didn't have examples. And so, raised by a single mom, um, I brought all of those type of things into our marriage. And so, although we love the Lord, or I did, I I was operating still from this part of me that God still was doing a work in. But I love that God is the God of the long game, right? Because He was doing lots of work to me, but it was taking time and in Him. And so three years into our marriage, we had drifted from each other so far. At this point, we're having babies. Um, I mean, now I'm having our third child. Um, and um, you know, I'm working a part-time job while still trying to raise the kids during the day. He's working full-time, he goes back to school, and we're just not even having relations. We're we're kind of like tag your it back and forth. And so our marriage had drifted to the point of we didn't know each other anymore. And so three years into our marriage, I get a call that um Tony had been unfaithful, and then that person hangs up, and that I like to say is the wrecking ball of our marriage where this huge ball just comes crashing in, but it it toppled the things we were already building that were already shaky. So it's kind of like you're looking at this beautiful house, but behind the walls there's decay, there's rot, and so this just brought everything cascading down.

Alisa: 25:12
Mari Lamar. What was that like for you to get that phone call? Were you surprised, or were you, no? I've seen the signs, I'm not surprised, but I'm you know, so angry and hurt. But what was that like for you?

Speaker 5: 25:25
I would say I was both naive and blinded. Um, I think I was naive because I would this, I mean, these were things I would say out of my mouth. If Tony was in a room with a naked woman, he would not cheat on me. I just thought he knows better. Like I would leave him. And those are the type of things I would say to him. If you ever cheat on me, we're done. I'm not gonna be that woman that um I've seen um be mistreated and misused. And so I thought in my mind that he would never do that. Maybe I thought naively that, you know, like I'm the best thing that ever happened to you know, I just can't. But also there was another part of me that felt um very blindsided because I was raising kids, and so I was so deep into mothering that I didn't see the signs. But when everything came out, it's like the puzzle piece started to come together. Oh, that's where he was, that's why he hasn't been. And and so at first I called him because I wanted to hear it out of his mouth. Um, and I said, Is this true? And then he admitted to it, and so that's kind of how everything got revealed. But yeah, I was blindsided by it. Yeah.

Chris: 26:42
Uh so take us through the next you know, weeks and months at that point.

Speaker 3: 26:49
Yeah, that was let's just say it felt like a week, the first day, the first night of it all, when it all came out. Um, and it wasn't all at once. I mean, when I got the phone call, it was like I was at work. She's telling me you have to be home within like 14 minutes, 15 minutes, and I'm I'm like, okay, but the minute she told me that this person called uh this is what happened, it was like I don't know, everything my like life left. It felt like a shell. But life left, and it was it was almost like I didn't couldn't hear anything. I mean, really, it felt like this scene from like a movie or something. And uh all I know was I gotta get home, told uh the boss this and I'm leaving, and I just left, got home, and uh we started arguing at at the house. I'm slowly telling her things like I don't feel like I love you anymore, or or I don't this and bringing things up. She grabs one of our kids, she leaves, leaves me with the other two at the house so I don't have to so I can't go nowhere, I guess. But um the easiest kid.

Alisa: 27:50
I don't know you're the oldest. Then she goes and got through some shit.

Speaker 3: 27:54
Well, she runs to our pastor's office. Um once we're at church, runs to our pastor's office, and uh I get a call from there. She's like, I'm at the pastor's office. Um if you want to salvage our marriage, I need you here, like right away. Yeah, and so I dropped the other two off at get a babysitter and uh run to the church and right there with with the pastor, you know, giving me, encouraging me, telling me, Tony, get it out, man. That's uh let's just be honest. Don't don't lie, now's the time to get it out. And so I said it, you know, I'm like, yeah, I've been having an affair. She's on the floor crying, and uh, I'm believing that I'm already packing my bags before I even pack my bags. Like, because this is what the Mighty would say, if you ever do this to me, like we're done. And so I'm believing I'm the weekend dad. I'm gonna be probably leaving at my mom's or somebody that'll take me so I can get back on my feet. I'm preparing my my new life without my family, and uh, but everything changes when the pastor asks her, Hey, what do you want to do, Marty? Like, what what do you want to do? What do you need from you? What do you want to do right now? He he goes, she goes, Well, she tells him, Well, can I divorce? Because he went out of bounds on our marriage. Doesn't the Bible say that that's a means for divorce? And our we believe our pastor had wisdom at that very moment that said, Listen, the Madi, that's true. You have the choice to do that. But you also have another choice, and that is you can forgive your husband. You can grace your husband right now. And I don't know what happened in that time being from him saying that to what she said uh afterward. I know there must have been something that was going on with her as well, and and I know now because she shares that like should be the Holy Spirit gave her the power to say that, but she's chosen grace. And in that moment, I felt like I already felt so bad about what's happening. Now I felt super bad. I'm crying over there, she's crying. Our pastor is just kind of like being like a dad in in this in the spiritual sense, kind of just waiting to see what the next step is. But I end up going back home that same night. I get to go back home to the home that I betrayed my wife and my kids, right? Because I'm living this double life here, and I'm just wrecked by God's grace and the mercy that my wife just displayed to me. And now having all types of uh thoughts and everything else, like like what's next. And uh, I mean, she cried through the night, I cried a uh as well, and it's just felt like okay, what's the next step for us after this? Like, like, like what do we do? And so we we tried our best to just work at it every day. Uh the church helped. We've had like then they sent some marital uh uh marital not coaching, but like counseling with our church leadership and our pastor and then some of the elders, and uh, but at the same time just asking people to help us out here and there, but it was still rough. I felt like it was like it would we were having these really bad fights, and uh didn't feel like we were getting any traction.

Alisa: 30:48
How long was it rough like that?

Speaker 3: 30:53
Well longer than that, but up until the moment where happened with the Lego.

Speaker 5: 30:58
Yeah, well, I would say I would say this though, I'll just go back a little. Um, it's important who you run to in a crisis.

Speaker 7: 31:07
It's great, great as well.

Speaker 5: 31:08
So the fact that I again God was leading us, and like when I look back, like I couldn't have done this my own. It was God guiding everything. The fact that I knew to go to our pastor, like that was my my initial reaction is I need to go to someone who's gonna lead me and counsel me in the right direction. So who are your counselors? Who are the people you're running to?

Chris: 31:34
Just a mercy and grace that God gave that he led me there.

Alisa: 31:39
Because what would have who else would you have gone to?

Chris: 31:43
What if she went to your mom? Oh, and they would have been different. You wouldn't be sitting here.

Speaker 5: 31:48
Exactly. My mom would have said, Okay, honey, pack your bags, get home, you're leaving him. Like, so I the fact that I knew to go to them, and then remember I said that I was so hungry for the word of God that I started reading it and consuming it, and sometimes I didn't know what I was reading, I just was reading it, and so what you're depositing in you will come out of you in crisis. And so, although I wanted to choke him, when the pastor said you can choose grace, and and it was like that word, which first of all, when I first heard it going to a church, I had no idea what grace was. I thought it was something you do before you eat your food. I thought it was maybe um, you know, somebody's name. Somebody's name. I didn't know any of that. It is, right? So, but when I realized what grace was, is that it's a it's a forgiveness and a grace that we don't deserve, that Christ extends to us, it was as if God took me back to my moment of salvation when I knew I didn't deserve any of it. And it's the the thing that came out of me. So the Holy Spirit becomes the impetus of our reactions and our actions when we are following him. And so, although I was really young, my first reaction, my flesh was like, Hey, doesn't the Bible say there's divorce? So I knew I knew how to archive that one, right? But when he used the word grace, it was as if the Holy Spirit just came, just responded like I choose grace. And so what you're putting in you will come out.

Chris: 33:22
Do you do you feel like because that's such an a spiritual, deep, possibly Holy Spirit-led encounter?

Speaker 7: 33:32
Yes.

Chris: 33:33
Um, do you guys ever feel like the enemy then would start attacking that at some point? Like doubts or wait, what did I do? Or I should have gone with that. And it's almost like flesh to want to kind of, I don't know if that ever happens to you.

Speaker 5: 33:50
Well, you are literally you're wrestling because you're making a decision, and I like to say that forgiveness is an act, it's a supernatural act, but it's also an act of faith. Daily, you do it before you feel it, right? And so I I responded to say I forgive him, but when the rubber hits the road, when everything starts coming out of all the things that he had been doing behind the scenes, when I start to see this man had a whole double life I didn't know about when all that was being revealed, then grace and forgiveness was being tried. Like I wanted to take back what I said, and yet Holy Spirit was doing a work in me where I was one moment saying, I don't want to be with him. The next hearing God, the little voice in me saying, Stay, stay. Like, you know, and so these were this is what God was doing inside of me. Um, and then you know, with with him, it was the shame, right? The shame of I should just go, it's never gonna get better. So he had those voices that he had to deal with.

Speaker 3: 34:58
Yeah, and that was going on for a while. I mean, even at the instance what she said in instantly when she said grace, I was already hearing thoughts like you're not gonna change. This is you're gonna do this again, you're gonna weigh out once this is done. I mean, just all this condemned for you, yeah. Inside of my your side of the mind, because when somebody uh offers out forgiveness and race, you still have to receive it on the other end as well. And there's a process even in that, and so it was uh difficult for me. I mean, there's a lot of pride in me as well at at the time, and uh and it was hard to for me to just see that that there was that I was worth anything to the relationship other than hurting it, uh bringing the pain, uh the deception, and and all of that. And so that carried on as she's needing the help to choose forgiveness and keep forgiving. I'm on the other hand, man, am I it might even worth forgiveness? It might work this this grace, you know, because I'm feeling like like it's probably better off that I'm that I'm out of here and out of this relationship, especially when we're having these heated moments that we're going uh on and on for uh a while now, and uh we didn't really have clear direction and tools. Like, how do we build off of this and not continue to try to build something and then it just get destroyed over a bad argument that learned for a week or a couple of days and then we're trying to make it back again. So um it was up and down for for a while.

Chris: 36:26
Uh Tony Lamari, uh great uh part one of your story. We're gonna dive into part two, which is where the growth, the hope, and the inspiration for our listeners take place, right? So thank you guys for that part one.

Mandy: 36:45
We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on The Art of Relationship.