In this episode, Chris and Alisa Grace continue their conversation with Tony and Lymari Navarro as they share the powerful second half of their story of healing after infidelity. This episode explores what it actually takes to rebuild trust, restore intimacy, and create a stronger marriage through God's grace.

Tony and Lymari discuss the importance of laying a new foundation rooted in Scripture, embracing the "messy middle" of recovery, finding the right support, celebrating small victories, and choosing perseverance when healing feels slow. They also share practical encouragement for couples navigating broken trust, reminding listeners that restoration isn't about returning to what once was—it's about allowing God to build something entirely new.

Whether you're walking through betrayal, supporting a friend in crisis, strengthening your own marriage, or simply wanting to build healthier relationships, this episode offers biblical wisdom and practical hope for the journey.

Resources Mentioned

• From Ruin to Renewal: Tony and Lymari Navarro share their personal story of rebuilding their marriage after infidelity while discovering God's power to restore what was broken. https://shop.familylife.com/product/from-ruin-to-renewal/
• Weekend to Remember® Marriage Getaway: The marriage conference that became a turning point in Tony and Lymari's restoration journey, providing biblical tools and practical guidance for building a healthy marriage. https://www.familylife.com/weekend-to-remember/
• Home with the Navarros: Marriage coaching, speaking information, resources, and encouragement from Tony and Lymari Navarro. https://www.tonyandlymarinavarro.com/
• Tony & Lymari Navarro on Instagram: Follow their ongoing ministry, marriage encouragement, and family life content. https://www.instagram.com/tonyandlymarinavarro

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• Website: cmr.biola.edu
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About the Hosts

Chris Grace, Ph.D., and Alisa Grace are passionate about helping people build and sustain healthy relationships. As leaders of the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships, they combine the wisdom of Scripture with scholarly research to offer practical advice and insights. Learn more at cmr.biola.edu.

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Alisa: 00:00
You know, trust is both foundational and fragile in a marriage. And when it's broken, that path forward can really feel overwhelming and uncertain. So in this episode, we are joined by our good friends Tony and Lamari Navarro. They're marriage coaches, speakers, and authors of the book From Ruin to Renewal. And they're they're going to share their personal story of betrayal and healing and their subsequent restoration. So with honesty and hope, they are going to unpack what it really takes to rebuild after trust is shattered. So from navigating the messy middle to embracing the cost of forgiveness, they're going to offer a process that's both spiritually grounded and really practical. So we're going to explore the honesty, daily habits, healthy boundaries, and even dependence on God that can really help couples rebuild. Not by returning to what used to be or what was, but by creating something brand new. And so this episode is for anyone who's walking through betrayal, supporting someone who is, or maybe you're just desiring a marriage marked by truth, grace, and lasting restoration. So stay tuned. This episode is for you.

Mandy: 01:13
Welcome to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is produced by the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. Let's get right into it.

Chris: 01:24
Let's dive into now uh part two with Tony and Lamari.

Alisa: 01:28
Um and they've been sharing a really incredible story that they share in their book From Ruin to Renewal in dealing with infidelity, betrayal, loss of trust that demolished their marriage. And it's just an incredibly uh redemptive story that God has worked in you and through you guys and for you. And so in part one, we we kind of touched on, we walked us through your early life, your married life, and what were some of the things that led you to that point where that trust and that betrayal happened. And so in this episode, we really want to hear about your journey back. What was that like? What steps did you take? Where did you even start? And something you said in that first episode that I want to go back to was so powerful, Lamari, because you said who you run to is so important in that moment of where that betrayal, who you run to is so important. And then you made the point of be careful and mindful of what you're putting in, what you're taking in in terms of you know, putting in good things like God's word, because in a moment of crisis, that's just naturally gonna be what comes out. And so take us through some steps. What were where did you even begin to start making your way back and building something, not uh going back to before the betrayal, but to make something even better.

Speaker 6: 03:08
Yeah. So we we say that, you know, like we use the analogy in the book of building a house, restoration, renovating. And so it's a lot like renovating a house or building something new. You start with the right foundation, and so we had to go back to the scriptures, we had to go back to what what does Christ say about forgiveness and marriage and learning and getting the right tools? And so it's interesting because um you need the blueprint, and so the blueprints found in God's word, and so we we were starting to say, like, okay, I don't know what we what we do from here, but it just we I mean, we slapped it up along the way, but we ended up going to our first weekend to remember, and it's where we started getting tools of marriage and seeing the bigger picture of marriage and um what are the threats in marriage, and it was eye-opening to the point that we were like, we gotta share this with other people, and so before we were ever speakers on the weekend to remember, God used it to impact our marriage, and so that's kind of we started with the right foundation. I don't know if you want to add something to that.

Speaker 4: 04:26
No, it was when we went to the first weekend to our first weekend to remember, it really was like uh the blindfold was off, and it made sense. We saw the bigger picture, you know, like okay, this is what it should look like. And hearing uh the great speakers that were were were part of that. It was us, I think.

Speaker 6: 04:43
Uh probably was maybe you guys got a team for us.

Chris: 04:48
I tell it wasn't us, including a slave, probably Greg Spike, who knows?

Speaker 4: 04:53
I don't remember Crawford the Ritz was oh crawford the Ritz, just some small legend, yes, a legend of the case. But it was uh such a great uh I mean we even fought going to the event as well. I mean, that's where we were at still. It wasn't like we just had moments where it was weeks would be okay, but then a few days would be bad, and it was a kind of linger. So we were we were trying to make the progress, but when we went to the weekends we remember, it really just opened up everything. Uh we bought all the stuff that was at the books, bookshop or at the shop they call it now. I mean, we were just loaded with bags, like we're ready to go ahead and get home and and get this going, and found out like Lamadi showed it before, that they had radio programs, you know, they were online that we could hear, like uh obviously family life, just focus on the family and some others. And so we were listening to the radios, uh stations, we were listening to the programs, we were reading the material, we started inviting people to come and go through it together, and we started realizing that if you just start, right, you invite the Lord in that, and you just have the right tools, just start applying those things, you'll start to see something transformative happen. And so we really started to grow in this, and we weren't really sharing about our story to anybody because we didn't feel like we were really out of it yet, per se, until years later. But we were at a place where we're like, man, we need to really help more, like help mother couples really get to it. And the mighty started to share about what happened in our marriage, and then I felt uh from the Lord that I could start really sharing that as well because once you share it, it kind of like opens up everything. You're starting to go maybe go back to that, the feelings of it, and we had those moments as well, but we've we fought through them in the right way to continue to share our story and what what the Lord has done with us, but also just these biblical principles and these troops. And before you know it, we started getting like knocks at night or phone calls at night that there's a couple that that needs to meet with you, whether they're in leadership at a church or they're they're part of some other group, but and they really don't want everybody in their in their area to to know what's going on. There's their circle or friends, and so we had a lot of these like 911 kind of situations going on um that you don't give credit for. You know what I mean? Like like we were the special nobody's gonna share about like who exactly helped us in that because we're because people knew what we were at our story. If you talk to Tony Amadi, there must be some sort of fidelity in your in your marriage. So um it really was just this process of like um not giving up. I think seeing the bigger picture is what family life did for us when we went to the weekends, remember that the bigger picture. And uh, I really believe for me, I wanted the legacy. Like I really wanted the legacy, and so I wanted like my my kids to change, my kids' kids change. I wanted to make decisions about whatever they think about of a dad or or a husband that it wasn't from great grand great-grandpa or great, I mean, it was gonna stop with me. And so um, it really was just like a tenaciousness to like really go after the Lord and and change our marriage. And I think that for me, I was such on the victim side of everything. Like I really started believing, like, I'm gonna lead this, like I'm gonna step up and lead, own up for what I did, uh, learn how to apologize to my wife, uh, continue walking with other men, accountability and all these other uh uh I think essentials that we need. But um, but I think that's really where it spring forward was after that we can remember, and we just went after. We just needed to know what to do.

unknown: 08:20
Yeah.

Chris: 08:21
You know, it reminds me of the old testament passage. I think it's Jeremiah, you know, do not call to mind the former things or ponder the things of the past. Behold, I will do something new, right? Even now it will spring forth. Will you not be aware of it? And I'll I'll even make roadways in the wilderness and rivers in the desert. You guys were in the desert, and now all of a sudden you're in the wilderness going, Where do we go? How do we do this? But Tony, I love that. You just had this desire, uh almost a God-given, like my heart's ready. I want to make a legacy. I I want our family to be a model. And he seems to have been faithful in doing that. As an aside, I think it's just interesting. Your little story about flipping uh and a home remodel and building, and you guys were on uh HGTV.

Speaker 1: 09:15
HGTV. Battle on the Mountain. I mean, it's it's this perfect almost uh picture of rebuilding. Take two minutes, one minute tell us about that story.

Speaker 6: 09:26
So it's interesting because um we started doing like small like jobs, and we started by renovating our own house because we didn't have the money to hire people, and so we learned along the way, and little did we know that years later, well, before HCTV called us, I just started posting things on Instagram. He started posting things on Instagram videos, and then they scouted us. But what's interesting about this was that before they called us, I had been writing the book, and we were writing it with the parallel of rebuilding a home. So then when HCTV called us, it was almost like God put it. It was just all die, you know, putting it together. And so yeah, we were on HCTV six weeks, splipped the house in in Colorado in front of national TV and in front of a crew of of cameras and and uh a team there. And it was a great experience, but it was also just really cool to see how it paralleled our art book, you know.

Alisa: 10:30
And yeah, and part of that remodeling process, uh, you know, you've got you've got the the bare bones of the house. Yeah. Um, but like in the book, you talk about this, you use this term, the messy metal, the messy in the middle, messy metal. Well, like totally because you yeah, you obviously didn't just go from, you know, oh, we extended grace, everything was great, now we're on this national speaking team, we're on TV, we do marriage ministry. What what's that messy in the middle of?

Speaker 6: 11:02
What did you learn from that? So when we wrote it, so we we often hear the stories uh just like you described it. We were broken, the highlights, and then fast forward, God changed us, and now look at our story. Well, we knew that well, we gotta talk about the mess in the middle. It's the the the dust is still in the air. You're trying to figure out where you're gonna cook your food because you're redoing your kitchen. And you know, there's tools everywhere. You're kind of, you know, uh eggshells, you know, walking around your house, like they're like my, you know, mines that you're gonna stand on or something and you know, hurt yourself. And so, you know, that's kind of how the rebuilding of your marriage is. There's a lot of dust in the air when the wrecking ball comes in and you're still trying to build. And um we tell the story of when we were when we were driving through Nashville, had just gotten hit by our tornado, and we're looking at the people building, and we're like, it's devastating, had hit this business district, and we're like, it's almost better that they just rebuilt somewhere else. But these people were putting up boards and fixing and and because they had history where they were at. And so when you're you have history, we had children and we decided to rebuild, we're like, we're gonna put on our work boots, we're gonna roll up our sleeves, and we're gonna work. And so the messy middle is this part of your marriage that's you're there's still pain, there's still triggers, there's still moments of doubt, there's still rebuilding your friendship and your intimacy, all those things in the middle of I forgive you, and then restoration is everything that's in between. And so we talk about that because we know there's people who are sitting in the messy middle, and what we say is your process is part of the progress. Yeah, so it's kind of you're gonna there's process when we were building in our house, we were still living in it, you know. When we were redoing our bedroom, we're living in it, but we're like, is this ever gonna change? Like, I'm waking up and I could feel the grime of the dust on my the bottom of my feet, like it's everywhere. Great analysis, inescapable, yeah. And so, but we still build. I don't know if you want to jump into and say anything about that.

Speaker 4: 13:26
But I I I think that well, for for us in the practical, yeah, we whenever we're building, she gets she wants to already put the walls up, she wants other, yeah, she wants to put up like pictures, and she feels like the project slows down when I have to go through like electrical, plumbing, insulation, all that stuff, make sure it's all code. And so even though I tell her I did all these things today, she's like, it still looks like a mess, even though I just had like hours and hours in there, like nothing's being done, and and like we we talked that we talk about that with couples, is that you may not feel or or see the results right now, but when you keep on working at it and keep an eye on the big picture of what you're shooting for, like what you're trying to work towards. Um, you'll you'll look back when you get there and be like, wow, I know that was a season where I felt like all the toil that we're doing, we're not seeing the fruit of that. But that's what we call the like the messy middle. And and for us personally, uh God was rebuilding me, was rebuilding the Mahdi. Uh in that process, we grew in our faith tremendously, not just our relationship, our but our faith. Um, our pastor and leaders recognized the gifting in us, and so really took us under their wings and started more discipleship, putting us into classes. She started going to Moody. I I went to Moody at least extended classes, then I went to like a church playing boot camp on our denomination, then I got license. And so we were trying to do that and build our marriage and still raise our kids and still go to work. It felt like a mess. It felt like a mess, but we were actually knew that okay, once we're done with this, we're gonna be able to plant a church, we're gonna be able to have our kids and all that. And so all that that that came and that was still hard. We were part of the church, uh, house church plant movement. And so you're having church in your home after dinner, it's like or breakfast, like put everything away, put the couch over there, and let's get everything's coming in. Make sure there's toilet paper. I mean, there are all these different things to to have people come in and and uh and see God transform their lives. And so it was a long process for us. Uh, but now we look back and we're like, man, I I wouldn't change it. Yeah, I would not change it. I mean, that that hard, those hard moments, those moments where you felt like selfishness was still in you and God wanted to squeeze that out. And it's like, no, I need more. And so just getting everything of you out, and now you look back, you're like, wow, I mean, that was just an amazing season.

Chris: 15:50
Have you ever felt that sometimes in marriage, like everything starts to pull you apart? And it's just not a coincidence, right?

Alisa: 15:58
Yeah, that you know, the Bible reminds us that we have a very real enemy who's been trying to divide couples since the Garden of Eden.

Chris: 16:06
At least I think it's why, and one of the things that led us to creating the Going Deeper Together, Spiritual Armor Required. It's a five-lesson course that equips couples to recognize the enemy's tactics and help you stand strong together.

Alisa: 16:21
And you'll discover the number one way the enemy gains an advantage and how to counter it with really practical biblical tools.

Speaker 2: 16:29
Isn't it true, Lisa? It's the your spouse isn't the enemy, is the enemy that's the enemy.

Alisa: 16:35
And if you want to protect and strengthen your marriage, this course is for you. So you'll find all the details in the show notes, so check it out. What do you think is the biggest mistake couples make who are in that mess in the middle?

Speaker 4: 16:54
Yeah. I think we can both share on this one, but I think for for we were just talking about this earlier, I think they uh they're they throw in the towel too early, I think. I I think they give up. They just give up. And uh and or they run to the wrong people. Yeah. And that's and and right away they they start getting bad counsel. Um and so I for us, it's hard when they're already indoctrinated with all types of things by the time we get a chance to help them in coaching or get them to an event, um, is that they're already in their mind, already resolved that this is not gonna change. Um, I've already have a way of escape out of this to go into uh either another relationship or move on and be on my own. And so for us, I for me, I think that uh it really is that they are ready to just throw in the towel right away. There's so many times in our past where we've had these 911s, we were in proximity with people, or we're like, okay, just come over. Kids already know there's a door, the doorbell rings, and somebody's there, everybody upstairs, you know, mom and dad's talking to this couple, and they're ready to like leave each other. And then at the at the end of having just like somebody that tells me slow down, breathe. It's okay. You're gonna be able to go home today, right? And and hug each other if you can do that, or uh, you know, just pray with each other and see that that their day is like didn't is ending the way that it is is ending differently than the way it started. All because that somebody else is coming alongside them and saying, Hold on, put the brakes on it real quick. Hold off. We don't the hurt is driving your decision right now, and we need to understand we gotta regulate ourselves, right? Get to a point where we can think this through. It's not gonna change overnight, but let's just think about today and what our decision is for today, and throw away the the the divorce card. Don't just pull it out every single time we feel that way. But I think it's yeah, we just they they it's not they they don't want to put the uh the effort and into this. This is too much.

Speaker 6: 18:52
Yeah, I think they don't I think not having enough grit, they give up other I like that way. I think yeah, the perseverance of the heart work, and I think um suffering does something so beautiful, and it can become the steroids of your face, literally. It can super, you know, just you know, exponentially help you grow. But I would say this, Tony just kind of alluded to it, is that I because I want I want to see the the room looking like it, the mood board that I have, right? So we need a vision of what this is gonna look like when you're in the mess. Like, hey, we're we're going through all of this, but man, here's the vision of what we're after. And this is the hope, right? And then the other thing is um, I would say not only that, but celebrate the small progress, celebrate the wins. Like what? Like, so so in for instance, especially when it's really uh heavy and messy, but if your husband or your your wife gives you passwords that says, Hey, I want to make this better, that's a win. That's a win. That says that their hearts are ready for change. If somebody calls you and says, Hey, I'm thinking about you, hey, the Lord placed this on my heart, celebrate the win that God sees you in your messy middle. Celebrate the little wins of, hey, today we didn't argue. I wanted to hurt you, but I didn't. Instead, I chose to choose grace every day, those little moments, you celebrate the wins. And we talk about the small incremental changes in the met in the missing middle is what brings the picture that you're looking for on that mood board of your marriage.

Chris: 20:44
You can see why Jesus used so many analogies uh to really cover what you guys are doing. Like, like you take a field and it has to lay fellow. There's growth, it looks like horrible, right? You call the herd, you get rid of all the bad, uh, whatever, big to to grow the big, right? But it doesn't feel good, that messiness, and yet to know there's growth occurring that can only be done, right? You have to trim back certain trees if you want it to fruit. Yeah, and that's a hard part, but I think you guys are starting to really be able to use what God did the way He cut you back, right, to kind of encourage other couples. I know it's hard, but little things of gratitude, uh, you know, holding on, fighting grit, finding the right people. Um, if you had to say, um, now looking back, um, it probably has shaped what you guys, what your future and what your hopes are. Uh, right. I mean, it that whole process, you guys are now nationally recognized speakers. You one day you're going to be as good as Elise and I, and and it it That's what I'm shooting for.

Alisa: 22:04
Your vision board. The phone.

Speaker 1: 22:07
Give them a picture, Jimmy.

Chris: 22:10
God has put you guys in a platform. With an incredible platform. And um what for you guys is next? Where do you where are you taking this? What's your hopes? What's your plans?

Speaker 6: 22:24
We you know it's interesting because we were talking about this. My prayer is that that we would be able to be a showcase for the glory of God of restoration and redemption of what it really looks like. But it's taking back what the enemy tried to steal from us and really robbing hell of marriages uh um on the brinks of divorce and saying, We didn't go through this for nothing. And it's and it's so it's almost like when you're in the messy middle, you don't see, like you said, like what God was going to do with all of it. You think about King David in the field, like he had no idea that God through him would literally put him on the throne, and then through his life would come um the savior. But we never know that our what our pain will do, but it can serve to help feed those who are in need um later on in life. And so that's that has really been our prayer, our hope, and then our legacy. So when you're you're in the messy middle, right? You want to think through like, man, if God is in it, he can do so much with our pain if we just let him. And look what you would forfeit.

Alisa: 23:44
Yes, had you thrown in the towel, had you given up, put at the very beginning or somewhere in the middle. Look at the impact that you guys are having in so many people's lives on a huge scale. I mean, every podcast that that you're being interviewed on, every conference that you speak with, even every couple, individual couple that you sit with, that you walk through sharing your story, what you've learned, what God has been so faithful to do and redeeming your own lives and giving them hope. And I, you know, I truly believe you'll never know this side of heaven, the impact that you guys are having in people's lives, and in it in a way that uh is bringing generational change. And talk about a legacy, but look at what you would have forfeited and what would have been lost on such a grand scale that you'll never really know this side of heaven had you given up in the middle. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 24:50
We were just talking about this. Uh I think it was a few days ago. I told her I was uh working on some uh units on a roof, you know, some HVAC equipment that I was working on. And I was listening to this um story of uh an evangelist that was just starting off and and he was praying for the Lord for every uh everything to be provided for rent. He said, I just every ever if he didn't the Lord didn't provide, he would come home and tell his wife we don't have money for food or we don't have money for for the rent. And to tell his wife about the bad news, he said that there was people walking put back and forth in this metropolitan area by him and in front of him. And he and he felt the Lord told him that you're gonna get a million dollars. And he was like, That would be great, Lord. A million dollars, I can do so much ministry with a million dollars, right? And uh, but then as he was walking, he felt the Holy Spirit convict him. He was like, I don't want a million dollars, I want a million souls. And so I was crying on the roof because I was we can get to that point where we're like, I need this for look for my family, for us. And I'm like, I'd rather take a million souls back from what the enemy wants to do in their lives and robbing them of their legacy for you. And I said, uh whatever time is left, I'm doing like a full surrender on the roof of a building, like Lord, whatever you want, whatever you need to do, but I would love to be part of impacting the lives for the kingdom of God. A million marriages would be great, Lord.

Chris: 26:22
So Whatever they may uh we're gonna keep great for you guys with that fairy legacy.

Alisa: 26:28
So if if you had just one more piece, one last piece of advice of wisdom that you would want to speak, if we had, if we were that couple that was just in that new point of betrayal, we don't know where to turn, we don't know what to do. What what's that one last piece of advice you would want our listeners to know to walk away?

Speaker 4: 26:52
It's hard.

Speaker 6: 26:52
That's a that's a there's so much, but one thing I would I would say and that and you could just add to it is that uh with Jesus all things are possible.

Speaker 4: 27:03
Absolutely, yeah.

Speaker 6: 27:04
Without him, it's gonna I I don't I've had somebody tell me at a weekend to remember, she came up to me, she was just angry, and she said, Um, tell me how to forgive without Jesus because she didn't believe in Jesus. And I said, I have nothing for you because this is supernatural. What God did here, the restoration, the the fact that your heart is transformed enough to turn to your husband or your wife in the middle of wreckage, that's only a God word. And so I would say, turn to Jesus, and when you want to turn away, turn to Jesus again, but keep on turning to each other.

Chris: 27:43
And he is a faithful God who wants to reign his mercies and grace down upon us unending at all times, regardless of where we're at in our actions and our so long as we subsurrender and trust and say, Please do this. He's a faithful God. He is. He meets us and look at your guys' ministry. What awesome thing, Lisa.

Alisa: 28:09
We are so grateful that you guys came today. Thank you for making time in your in your schedule. I know you're busy prepping for the weekend to remember in Redondo Beach this weekend.

Chris: 28:19
We'll take over if you guys need help. We'll do session three party.

Alisa: 28:25
But we really do appreciate just your vulnerability, your openness, sharing your journey. Because I know, I know, I know there is somebody listening today that the Lord drew them to this podcast. Maybe they're a regular listener, and maybe they just happened to stumble upon it, or maybe somebody shared it with them, but they needed to hear your testimony today.

Chris: 28:49
We'll pray they're one of the million. And then we'll pray, God, give you those million souls and the million dollars. Let's find let's pumper.

Alisa: 28:57
Yes, the light pepper.

Speaker 6: 28:59
So, how can people find your book from ruin to renewal? Well, y'all can find it on Family Life Shop if you just look it up. And you can just Google my name because it's a very unique name, but it's also on Amazon. So you could get it on Amazon. Um, we have the audiobook, the ebook, and the physical book um on Amazon there.

Chris: 29:22
And that's L-Y-M-A-R-I, Lamari, and then Tony Navarro.

Alisa: 29:28
Yeah, yeah. And if people want to connect with you, yeah, how they how could should they connect with you?

Speaker 6: 29:33
Whoopsor. Our website is tonyandlimatinavaro.com, or you can look up home with the Navarro's and pull it up. And we do um, we we speak, we do coaching, um, and we have resources on.

Chris: 29:47
And you love California.

Speaker 6: 29:48
We like to come to Cali.

Chris: 29:50
Yeah, you can go anywhere, but let's make it Cali. Hey guys, thank you so much for joining us on our podcast.

Alisa: 29:58
Yeah, and uh, thank you for listening today. And we have so many great resources for you available on our own website at uh the Center for Marriage and Relationships. So check it out. It's cmr.biola.edu. And we are Chris and Elisa Grace for the Art of Relationships podcast. So we'll see you next time.

Mandy: 30:23
We're very glad you joined us for today's podcast. For more resources on marriage and healthy relationships, please visit our website at cmr.biola.edu. We'll see you next time on the art of relationships.