How to Date Your Spouse

Whether you are newlywed or have been married for over 20 years, it's time for a date night. Dating allows couples to cultivate an intimate marriage that thrives and brings glory to God. In this week's episode, Dr. Chris and Alisa Grace talk about dating in marriage and how to make your spouse a priority.

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Speaker 1:    Welcome to another Art of Relationships Podcast. We are grateful for listeners like you. Let's get right into it.

Chris Grace:    Well, welcome to another Art of Relationships Podcast. Alisa, today, it's fun to have you here.

Alisa Grace:    Hey, thanks. It's good to be here.

Chris Grace:    All right. And what a fun opportunity for you and I, for our listeners out there. Alisa is the podcast host of the day. And so you and I together, Alisa. Tell us a little about yourself maybe, something real quick, maybe about marriage.

Alisa Grace:    Yeah. Gosh. Well, Chris and I have been married for a long time, like over 30 years and we're actually the co-directors for the Biola University Center for Marriage and Relationships. So we are one of those rare couples that gets to work together five days a week and then live together 24/7/365. So we get some good time together.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. And then with COVID, it's been even more so, and it seems like...

Alisa Grace:    Yeah. From home.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. And now that the restrictions are lifting a little bit, I think people are starting to wander out. But I think for us, it's always fun to work together. I think we have to... Maybe we'll do a podcast sometime about how do you draw boundaries in your work world and how do you do that when you're...

Alisa Grace:    When you're working at home.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. Working at home or maybe working together on projects. So how about that as a future podcast?

Alisa Grace:    That's a great idea. Yeah.

Chris Grace:    Alisa, it's good to have you here, and let's try this. Let's start maybe by talking a little, a bit about what is it like if you're married to date your spouse and we get so many very interesting questions about this. I think on one extreme, you get people that love to date. They go out. They continue to do this. They're either newly married or they've been married for however long, but dating is part of their routine. They've just decided and made a commitment. And so Alisa, a long time ago when we were, gosh, even I think when we were getting marital advice during premarital counseling, we were told something about dating.

Alisa Grace:    Keep dating. Yeah. Keep dating. And we continued it even when we started our family and when our kids were little. I think more than ever, when our kids were little, we really needed that time away and that time together. I think that was probably one of the keys that really got us through some rough spots in those early years of marriage.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. And I think when we talk about dating and marriage and dating your spouse, so on that one extreme are people that have figured out something, and Alisa, you said rough spots and it's no doubt all marriages have those, right?

Alisa Grace:    Oh. Yeah.

Chris Grace:    They go through rough starts even when you're newly married. The surprising thing is they happen fairly suddenly. And I think for a lot of people, it's like, "Uh oh, what happened?" But Alisa, it seems as if the couples that we've met and hung around with and talked, tend to have dating as part of their normal marital routine, let's say. So why is it so important to date while you're married? What is so good about it? What brings you to a point where you're like, "You have to do this." When you meet a young couple and they're asking for advice, what do you tell them?

Alisa Grace:    Yeah. Gosh. I think for us, when it came to dating, one of the benefits was it gave us something to look forward to together that we knew was going to come at the end of the week. And whether you do it in the middle of the week, you do it on the weekend, we actually took advantage of Awanas at our church. It was awesome because every Wednesday night, we would be able to go out, drop the kids off at church, get them in their little program and then run and go have dinner together uninterrupted. And it was like that one time in the week that we could really look forward to time alone together and not have the kids around and just relax and I think enjoy uninterrupted conversation, was a biggie.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. Yeah. So why is it for many couples, they've learned something. There's a secret there that I think I'd like to explore a little bit and that secret is you end up being able to have uninterrupted time and Alisa, why can't we just have uninterrupted time, let's say in the living room or in the kitchen after the kids are down or once all work is done or we turn off the screens? Why is that not a date, do you think?

Alisa Grace:    Well, I don't know that it's not. I think for a lot of couples, that really does work, but I think in order for that to work, you have to be able to be really disciplined to set things aside, not get distracted by the laundry that needs folding, the bills that need to be paid, and yeah, just other things there in the house. If you can really be disciplined and draw those boundaries and really come into that space where it's just the two of you and maybe it's just having a cup of coffee and talking about your week, debriefing about your week, maybe it's your kids are old enough, so you can go for a walk around the block after dinner, and make that that uninterrupted time. That's a little bit more like a daily thing than a date, but I think you can do it at home, but I think it's definitely harder to do it at home and really get that feeling of separation.

Chris Grace:    So some young couple is starting off and they want to do this. They want to continue it. What they find is that work, man, but they're both working, or maybe one's working, one's at school. Whether kids are involved or not, Alisa, what are some of the biggest barriers to dating when you're married? So I think you started with one, the barrier is some people just are way too busy.

Alisa Grace:    Oh, yeah.

Chris Grace:    And you're going to have to really check that anyway. I don't know if there's much help for that other than to sit down with somebody and say, "What can we cut out?" So what happened our first year was very interesting. You and I were advised to do something our first year.

Alisa Grace:    Yeah. When we were engaged and going through our premarital counseling, we were advised to set aside the first year kind of like a sabbatical, if you would call it. So we were advised to step out of leadership, of the Bible studies we were in, or take a back seat to maybe some other leadership opportunities or other events and just take that time to spend with each other, getting to know each other. So it's not like you check out and you don't go to Bible study. It's not like you don't participate in the other things in life, but you just decrease your responsibility that's involved in that so you don't have that weighing on your shoulders and you can take what you would be setting aside to prep for those things and you actually invest it in your time together.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. So an example was you and I, we stopped leading individual, let's say, Sunday school classes, or we began... You, of course, were starting off new in a new state, all the way from Texas. We lived in Colorado our first year of marriage, where I was from. And I think what ended up happening is we just had to take an account of where we were giving our time. I love that you used the word sabbatical. There's a verse in Deuteronomy 24:5, Alisa, it's one of our favorite verses we tell. When a man... Here's Deuteronomy 24:5, "When a man is newly married, he shall not go out with the army or be liable for any other public duty. He shall be free at home one year to be happy with his wife, whom he has taken." Man, what an awesome...

Alisa Grace:    Oh, I love that. And in some versions, it even says "In order to make his wife happy."

Chris Grace:    Oh. That's awesome.

Alisa Grace:    I like those versions better.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. Yeah. It is a better version, to be honest, but a marriage sabbatical is something, Lis, that you and I talk about. And right now, we're talking about dating of course, but some couples have taken this, and you and I have tried this where they just have taken a leave from some leadership thing at work or at school that's optional, maybe instead of taking a full load of classes, they take a half a load.

Alisa Grace:    Yeah. If you remember, when we first got married, you were finishing up your last year of grad school.

Chris Grace:    Yeah.

Alisa Grace:    You were working. I was working and trying to go back to school to finish up my final year of undergrad. And I think it was two weeks into it, if you remember, I showed up back at home and you walked in the door and I think I just burst into tears. I was like, "I can't do this. I'm overwhelmed." And you really gave me the permission to step out of that and we ended up making the decision that I would just push the pause button on my studies while you finished jurors, we go ahead and work. And then we came back. And as soon as you were done, then I went back and finished.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. And I remember getting the advice that not just to date, but there's going to be a certain time where you have to set aside time. That's an entire year that Deuteronomy says you can't go out. You will not go out into the army, but you will stay home for one year to work on. And Alisa, I think that first year is foundational.

Alisa Grace:    Yeah.

Chris Grace:    If you've been married three or four years now, and you didn't do that, let's say work and everything, school took over for you, it's not hard to reinstitute something like that. And you can just simply just say, "We're going to take a sabbatical and we're going to try and do that." So here's what... I don't know, Alisa, you and I have been working a little bit on this idea of a marriage sabbatical.

    And the goal, I think, is to show... Well, first of all, some people need to establish the foundations of marriages. Some people just need to shore up the foundations, right? Because it allows you during those shoring up times to allow God's grace to come in at a more deeper level and thus, your marriage can thrive and bring God glory. So I think this is maybe a definition, Alisa, that we walk, we talk about. For a season, whether it's dating and you call that part of your sabbatical, or whether you find a more opportune time, it's this temporarily removing things from our busy lives so we can be free at home to cultivate an intimate marriage.

Alisa Grace:    I love that.

Chris Grace:    And so it involves... Look, we talked about maybe you just don't lead that Bible study. You don't host that event. You don't do a holiday at your home. You cut back on some other social obligation or maybe a ministry trip that others can cover so that we can be free of them.

Alisa Grace:    Or even those extra overtime hours, maybe.

Chris Grace:    Yeah.

Alisa Grace:    And going back to your question you asked, what are some of the barriers to dating? I think not only being really busy, Chris, but also for a lot of parents, it can be the money.

Chris Grace:    Yeah.

Alisa Grace:    To be able to have to hire a babysitter to come in, to actually go out and you're spending money. And even if it's not a whole lot, especially I think during COVID when so many people are hit by the financial crisis with that, that really makes a difference and the extra money they have to spend. And so you really have to get creative. You can still do it. And maybe it takes switching off babysitting with a friend or hitting up your parents, "Hey, grandma, grandpa, Aunt Nicole, can you come watch the kids?" But getting creative about, "Okay, maybe we don't have a lot of money, so you know what? We're going to go to Starbucks for an hour and we're going to spend less than $10 and we're just going to sit here for two hours and visit and talk."

Chris Grace:    Right. Yeah. Yeah. I love that, Alisa. I think the money issue, you're exactly right. It can be a problem and burdensome for some.

Alisa Grace:    Yeah.

Chris Grace:    And by the way, you could even go cheaper than Starbucks. Right? You and I remember when we were first married, we would find everyday coupon that would allow buy one, get one free.

Alisa Grace:    Oh, yeah. That would have been a luxury.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. And so...

Alisa Grace:    Well, even though around you think about, gosh, we live in Southern California, so a lot of times, you can go do something outside, like check out the hiking trails in your area and just go for a hike, go for a walk down to the beach.

Chris Grace:    So you would call a hike a date then.

Alisa Grace:    Sure.

Chris Grace:    I would too.

Alisa Grace:    If it's with you and we're alone.

Chris Grace:    Yeah.

Alisa Grace:    You bet.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. I think so too, Alisa. I think if there's conscious, deliberate attempt to set aside things, and by the way, these are not just priorities, obligations at work. These are also... It's more a mental and emotional setting aside of things. Wouldn't you agree? I could say, "Okay, I'm going to stop leading this Bible study." But then I constantly worry about or think about something. So now I go on a date and I'm preoccupied with things. How do you do that? How do you set aside the things that just constantly go through our brains and our minds that, "I'm listening to you, but I'm not concentrating on what you're saying, because I'm so worried or so kind of obsessed about something going on at school or work." What do you think?

Alisa Grace:    Gosh. That's a great question. I think in that case, maybe there's additional time that maybe not in your date, but just additional time, like, okay, in conversation, there's really two different kinds of conversation. One is functional where it's like, "Okay. Hey, Chris, Caroline has cheer after school until 6:00. Can you go pick her up? And then we have dental appointments then, and don't forget they have that project. Can you run and pick up supplies for her diorama that's due in fourth grade next week?" So those are kind of function...

Chris Grace:    Which is very close to diarrhea sometimes that it [inaudible] to people like, wait you had [crosstalk] the kids are going to...

Alisa Grace:    You do not want to get this too mixed up.

Chris Grace:    "I have to do a diarrhea." "No, I think it's called a diorama." "No, but I have to do that, my teacher said." "No, I think she said diorama, kid." Anyway, but let's continue. Sorry.

Alisa Grace:    Oh, gosh. Well, okay. So you have the functional type where you're really accomplishing the ways your family functions on a day-to-day basis, but then you want to have that kind of conversation where you're exploring each other's hearts, your mind, your dreams. We talk a lot about being dream detectors and this where we have something that we can post on our website for you called The 32 Questions to Intimacy, where you just work through those little questions of exploring each other's inner world. What are your likes, your dislikes? What are you worried about? What are you excited about at work? Who's driving you crazy at work? Who's your favorite person at work? If money were no object and you could leave for one month unencumbered right now today, where would you go and what would you do? That's so important.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. Well, I love that difference then. So you said when you go on these dates, there's two or three things you have to do first. You have to decide that this is important. Dating and marriage still is the critical, most important thing. Some of the obstacles we said were financial. Sometimes it's just busyness and sometimes it's hard to give up these things. There's no space. But we're asking and saying that this is one of the things we were told to do. Biblically even, there's a great verse that supports this notion. So Alisa, you also said there's functional conversation.

Alisa Grace:    Communication.

Chris Grace:    Communication, and then there's that deeper, more what? Inquiry or it's more asking and seeking out the other person's heart and then listening.

Alisa Grace:    Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Grace:    I remember one time we were on an airplane, you and I, and you don't usually think of an airplane as a date, but think about it. You're sitting next to each other. You have three hours. Nobody usually is around you, or at least they can't hear you very well, but you can sit there and somebody brings you snacks and drinks and food, and it's kind of like a date, but it's really not used that way. However, on one of our recent trips, well, it's been a couple of years now, but I asked you a question on that list that said, "Alisa, what, what do you want to do? Or what drives your heart? Or what makes you excited?" And I remember your answer.

Alisa Grace:    Yeah. I remember you asking me that. And I sat there and I thought about it and the word that came to mind pretty quickly was adventure. I just love adventure. I love to go and do new things. It can be simple. Like if we're on a hike, we're just going on a different trail. That's an adventure. It could be vacationing in a different place. It could be one of those bucket list things that you can check off, or it could just be going on a scavenger hunt for our anniversary that you took the time to set up. Or if you remember, one time, you planned our anniversary that we celebrated and the way that he planned it, or I guess the way that he communicated it to me is he said, "Lis, okay, we're going away for the weekend for our anniversary."

    And I'm like, "Whoa, that's so cool. That's awesome." And it's like, "Okay, where are we going?" And you said, "I'm not telling you." I'm like, "What? How am I going to pack?" And you're like, "Just pack. We're going to a cool climate so just get your things together, pack for a cold climate and I'm not going to tell you. You'll find out when we get there." And so, oh man, the whole time I packed, I was like, "Wow, this is so fun." So really, it's tapping into that adventure. And then not only being that dream detector, but then also working really hard to make that dream happen for the other person. It's not enough just to know it and hear it, but you would actually try to make that happen.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. Well, thanks. I remember that. It was awesome. I listened to you on the plane. You talked about that word adventure, what it means to you and not only did I plan that trip, I planned another one that didn't go quite as well. If you remember, we came home and I said, "All right, everybody." Including we had two kids at the time. We said, "All right, both of you all, just pack, pack your bags. We're going for five days or four days somewhere. They're like "What?" And Alisa, I said, "I'm not telling any of you all." And so we get in the car and we get to... You remember, Lis, the first freeway we hit, I said, "All right. Here's the 5 Freeway. Are we going north or south?"

Alisa Grace:    North or south?

Chris Grace:    "We have to vote. We have five people in the car." And so we all voted and let's say it was south. And they were like, "Oh my gosh." And then I said, "All right. This is the 91 Freeway. Are we going east or west?" Right?

Alisa Grace:    Right.

Chris Grace:    The east or west, we decided, I don't remember. At the time, we probably went east. And we ended up at some crazy place out near Palm Springs the first night. And then we ended up near probably Arizona and Grand Canyon. We just ended up in weird places. And I remember you coming back and saying, "Chris, I love adventure, but I really don't like that at all. I want to know kind of where we're going."

Alisa Grace:    I need to plan.

Chris Grace:    "I want to plan. I want a hotel room that's reserved."

Alisa Grace:    Yeah.

Chris Grace:    That wasn't my best adventure moment.

Alisa Grace:    Oh, it was memorable. I'll give you that.

Chris Grace:    It was memorable.

Alisa Grace:    It was memorable. You get A for effort for that.

Chris Grace:    Okay. So couples now that are married, Lis, we're telling and saying then something which seems obvious, but isn't. The obvious is, well, of course, but there are some people on the other extreme said, "Oh, well, I already have her. Why do I need to date? What does that mean go on a date? Who cares? We're already married. We talk at night. We're connected. We're doing fine." But I think we would argue and say most of the healthy thriving marriages that we see are those in which they incorporate some sort of sabbatical time together or some sort of date on a regular basis.

Alisa Grace:    Date night. Yeah. I think it's so important, Chris, because it's one of the ways that we communicate to each other that, "Hey, you are important to me. Time, uninterrupted time with you is so important to me that I'm willing to sacrifice time with the kids, time with my friends, time on social media. I'm willing to sacrifice the money and our budget and set it aside to make sure that we get time together." And so I think that's one of the most important things. So if it's a priority to you, then you will make time for the things that are a priority.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. And I think, Alisa, some of the fruits that we have seen, there tends to be a softening of our hearts towards each other at times like that, because we get new insights about maybe hurts or dreams, adventures or things that they want to accomplish, but they're not.

Alisa Grace:    Worries.

Chris Grace:    And then... Yeah. And worries. It gives us a new way then to think about our spouse, pray about them in a new light, because Alisa, let's be honest, marriage researchers have always found that we are not the same. You and I are different now that we've been married this long. You didn't marry the person right now sitting in front of you. Right?

Alisa Grace:    Yeah.

Chris Grace:    And so when experts talk about changes, what is so amazing is we hear this final obstacle. Well, I already know everything about my spouse. I know their dreams. I know their hopes. Right? I know everything about them. How would you respond to that?

Alisa Grace:    Oh, I hope you don't. I hope you don't. And I think to assume that you do is probably taking your partner for granted, because you think about all the time that you've been together, the life experiences that we share shape us. The hurts, the pain shape us. Introducing children into our relationship shaped us. Our jobs, where we live, the friends that we have now that we didn't have then, they shape us and mold us differently. And to be able to take that time to really discover the other person, I think you'll be missing something very rich that you may not even be aware that you're missing unless you take the time to dig and ask.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. I think if you think about the financial obstacle, we've given you a way out of that, that is just go-to. How about this? Go on a picnic, make your own food from the house and then go off to a park. You and I have gone and just taken a drive through a fast-food restaurant. We did drive and we just sat at a park and then we walked a little bit and we call that one of our funnest dates. Seriously, being on an airplane, you have all this time to waste. If you're waiting, you can use that to say, "You know what? Let's just..." You're a little tired at that time. Maybe it's not the best opportunity, but...

Alisa Grace:    Yeah.

Chris Grace:    So financial obstacles should be easily overcome. The fact that you need to realize that your spouse has changed and changes regularly, and has, like you said, shaping influences that are outside that it'd be fun to learn about something new about them.

Alisa Grace:    I think it's one of the key ways that you fight that idea of... Well, when couples get divorced, one of the key things that they say is, "Well, we just fell out of love. I just don't love her anymore. I don't love him anymore." And what that tells me is that one of the reasons, now it's not for every couple, but for one of the main reasons could be that maybe he really don't know them anymore. And you really need to take the time to be vulnerable, share your own heart and then explore theirs.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. And that's a difficult one because sometimes people say "We've drifted so far away..."

Alisa Grace:    We've grown apart.

Chris Grace:    "...that I don't even know who they are." And what an opportunity to try and come back to, "Let me try. I need to learn a little bit more about their inner life." And I think that can soften your heart, especially when you receive it in a way, and you prepare your own heart. I would say one last thing, Alisa, that people need to do. I love the idea of functional conversation and then having deeper conversations.

    But I also think you prepare for a date. I think that if you're married, you prepare by putting aside certain things. Like, for example, you said that you will oftentimes come home and you have a little sign on the door that says something and then that reminds you leave this behind. And you could talk about that if you want. But I think for a date, if you go out as... If you're married, institute dating, do it on a regular basis. We did it every week, every week almost for forever. And sometimes we miss and you could go a whole three weeks without it, but then you usually remind me.

Alisa Grace:    Oh, we miss it.

Chris Grace:    Yeah, we miss it.

Alisa Grace:    Really miss it.

Chris Grace:    But all of that to say, I think couples need to just institute it, start it, maybe you just go out once every two weeks, maybe you just do something different, maybe you learn, but you prepare your heart before you go to put things aside. So maybe that...

Alisa Grace:    That's a great mental exercise to do. And even it can be really fun to take turns planning the date. You get to know, ask each other "What would be your ideal date?" And maybe each of you make a list of 10 items that would be the ideal date for you.

Chris Grace:    That's good.

Alisa Grace:    And then you switch the list and then each of you take turns. You alternate, taking turns planning the date. That way, you're actually anticipating it. You're looking forward to it. The other one has the adventure of it. "Oh, I wonder what we're going to do."

Chris Grace:    Yeah, that's cool. So what would you put down on your ideal date? So I know for example on mine, I think my ideal date, you know this because we do it all the time would be, you have learned like when you said the word adventure was your key thing. One of the things I said, because you asked the question back to me on that plane ride, is how important sports had been in my life. I grew up playing. Even as an adult, I played baseball and went off and you made a conscious effort to not only join me in that, but you came to every game that we played and even...

Alisa Grace:    Took golf lessons.

Chris Grace:    Yeah, you took golf lessons. You learned. Right now, you know every player on the Dodgers.

Alisa Grace:    Oh. Yeah.

Chris Grace:    You know everybody that's hurt. You know everybody that's playing. And the sports isn't necessarily your first go-to.

Alisa Grace:    But because it's important to you, it's important to me. And that's the key, I think, is when you make it a priority, you're saying, "Because it's important to you, and because you're important to me, then that's important to me too. Because what affects you, affects me. What makes you sad, makes me sad. What makes you happy, makes me happy. Because we're in this together. We're a team." And it really cultivates and builds that whole idea of teamwork, I think, between a husband and wife.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. And what better way than to strengthen the foundations, to shore up the foundations, but even to establish something and that says, "Hey, we take this marriage seriously, but this other person is somebody I need to continue to cultivate as far as my understanding of what they're like and get to know them and continue that, so that the worries and cares of this world, we can cast them aside." Jesus talks about, "Cast all your worries and cares upon me." Right? And I think we do that sometimes. I know when you walk in the door, you have that little sign up on the thing and it reminds you...

Alisa Grace:    Yeah. Grateful, thankful, blessed.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. And when you see that sign, what do you do?

Alisa Grace:    Yeah. It makes me take stock of where we are in life. What am I thankful for? And to be able to walk into our home and engage with you, engage with our kids, our friends there, with that attitude of gratitude.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. And so you set aside the things like... Some people...

Alisa Grace:    Your cares [crosstalk].

Chris Grace:    Yeah. And some people are driving home from work saying, "Okay, I'm going to set this aside as best I can and focus on even just first 10 minutes, this other person." That can be considered a date. Alisa, we joined a reading group and that's a date. You know I...

Alisa Grace:    Oh, yeah. We did that for years.

Chris Grace:    Yeah. For years, our reading group was awesome. And we would talk about that and we would go have dinner, talk about it and then go to the reading group and call that kind of a fun date. Different.

Alisa Grace:    Yeah. It was very fun.

Chris Grace:    Well, Alisa, I think this is great advice and ways in which you continue to date your spouse after marriage and the importance of doing it. Any final thoughts?

Alisa Grace:    Yeah. I don't think you'll ever regret it. You may look back years into your marriage and say, "Gosh, I wish we would have done that differently." And you would regret not doing it, but you'll never regret doing it. The benefits are just fabulous.

Chris Grace:    They really are. So for all you out there, we have a 32 question that you could do going on your first date. I think Alisa, you made a great suggestion. Write down your ideal date, each of you. And for some, it may just be going to a ballgame. For others, that may be going to a museum or for some, maybe a movie. Others is just going for a walk or a hike.

Alisa Grace:    Going to dinner.

Chris Grace:    And going to dinner. Write it down. Do it. Talk about expensive ones and inexpensive ones.

Alisa Grace:    Yeah. You could even have categories like cheap, moderate, and then expensive and then work according to your...

Chris Grace:    Yeah. You do the expensive one once a year or something. Right?

Alisa Grace:    Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris Grace:    Okay. Well I think that's great advice, Lis. Good job, I think, for us, with encouraging younger couples. We tell them to concentrate on Deuteronomy 24:5. Again, newly married, you shall not go out with the army, right? Or be liable for any other public duty, but be free at home for one year to be happy with his wife, whom he has taken.

Alisa Grace:    And then be free one day a week to pour into each other.

Chris Grace:    Oh. That's great, man.

Alisa Grace:    One day a week.

Chris Grace:    All right. It's good talk with you.

Alisa Grace:    Yeah, you too, Chris. Thanks for having me.

Chris Grace:    And hey, go to our cmr.biola.edu. We've got some downloads you can do there on this. You can look at dating. We've got steps you can take to institute this in your marriage.

Alisa Grace:    Yeah. Video clips you can check out.

Chris Grace:    Video clips, all that stuff. Check it out. All right. Nice talk with you.

Alisa Grace:    Thanks, Chris.

Speaker 1:    Thanks for listening to the Art of Relationships. This podcast is only made possible through generous donations from listeners just like you. If you like it and want to help keep the podcast going, visit our website at cmr.biola.edu and make a donation today.